Kudos to Israel for banning overly-skinny models

[iheartscience]

Quibbling over what criteria or number is used to draw the line misses the point.

Women are dying.
Solutions are needed.
The fashion industry carries a lot of blame for publishing zillions of images of gaunt women as the ideal of beauty.

The fashion industry is the last entity I'd blame for the myriad of health problems women face.

This thread is not about the myriad.
It's about the two mentioned in the OP, bulimia and anorexia.

Gee, folks.
I think this is a wonder thing.
Why are people all upset?

I'm not all upset, I just really dislike the classification of anyone with a BMI under 18.5 as "dangerously skinny." Mainly because it's not true.

ETA not to mention that having a BMI below 18.5 does not mean you are bulimic or anorexic. Thin does not = eating disorder.

But it sorta is Thing. As a generalization that is. Doesn't mean you were or are too skinny. Just means that for the most part people who weigh under a certain amount at a certain height are too thin.

But statistically speaking it's actually more dangerous to have a high BMI. No generalizations needed.

But that wasn't your question to me was it? You asked if there were any studies indicating low BMI to be unhealthy.

Right, but the research you linked to didn't actually focus on whether most people with a low BMI are unhealthy, which is what you stated. So I used the articles about high BMI data to draw my conclusions, and the only way to do that was to compare low BMI to high BMI.

 

[kenny]

T2 everyone realizes there are exceptions to generalizations, but thanks for reminding us that there is no magic BMI number.

 

[Missy]

Thing here it is again...

http://www.livestrong.com/article/323460-bmi-heart-disease/

An unhealthy low body mass index can also put you at increased risk for heart disease. A study published in the "New England Journal of Medicine" in 2010 by Amy Berrington de Gonzalez and colleagues studied the relationship between low body mass index and mortality from heart disease. The study analyzed data from 19 studies, totaling 1.4 million men and women. The results showed that an increased risk of mortality occurred for people outside of the healthy range, including those in the underweight category.

There's more but I really don't think you want any facts indicating low BMI can be unhealthy. You just want to prove your point no matter how inaccurate that might be for most people.

 

[packrat]

It's great they're trying to do something-anything is better than nothing. BMI is a useful tool at times but it's not the be all end all of health and wellness and fitness.

 

[Amys Bling]

It's great they're trying to do something-anything is better than nothing. BMI is a useful tool at times but it's not the be all end all of health and wellness and fitness.

agreed. I like the sentiment- but as someone who is in the category of 18.5 BMI- I can attest that it doesn't mean you are super skinny or unhealthy as I am neither.

I do think the image of skin and bones models should be replaced with healthy models

 

[kenny]

So maybe by picking 18.5 they wanted to be extra extra sure of not encouraging eating disorders.

I'd rather they err on the side of caution since there's so much at stake.
Girls and women are dying to make themselves as """"attractive"""" as the images they are bombarded with.

I just hope the biggies, Paris, New York, Milan and London (and the ad industry, even for muscle-cars) follow Israel's brave lead.
This women-bashing has to end.

 

[fleur-de-lis]

Ectomorph, endomorph, mesomorph.

I'm with Thing2 on this one.

 

[monarch64]

While it's great that Israel is concerned for the health of its models, it doesn't change my opinion that couture looks better on human hangers while it is breezing down a runway. A garment (again, in my opinion, based on my education and background in fashion) is best presented on a figure who has very slight amounts of jiggle in the chest, midsection, and backside.

Yes, there are some cases of models dying over trying to maintain a weight that is impossible for their body. Yet the outrage against the fashion industry perpetuating or being the cause of eating disorders in women implies (in my opinion) that AGAIN, women can't be trusted to have common sense or make their own decisions. It's as if we're incapable of seeing a very thin model and NOT drawing the conclusion that we must look the same way or we aren't attractive. Come on. That's like saying we need to censor all music (thanks Tipper) because it leads to violence or bad behavior in children under 18 or whatever that ridiculous law is.

 

[kenny]

Yet the outrage against the fashion industry perpetuating or being the cause of eating disorders in women implies (in my opinion) that AGAIN, women can't be trusted to have common sense or make their own decisions. It's as if we're incapable of seeing a very thin model and NOT drawing the conclusion that we must look the same way or we aren't attractive.

Some can.
Some can't.
Women vary.

 

[iheartscience]

Yet the outrage against the fashion industry perpetuating or being the cause of eating disorders in women implies (in my opinion) that AGAIN, women can't be trusted to have common sense or make their own decisions. It's as if we're incapable of seeing a very thin model and NOT drawing the conclusion that we must look the same way or we aren't attractive. Come on. That's like saying we need to censor all music (thanks Tipper) because it leads to violence or bad behavior in children under 18 or whatever that ridiculous law is.

 

[slg47]

not everyone with a BMI under 18.5 is too thin but some of these models are. I wish models would come in all shapes and sizes so women could see how clothes look on different body types.

and monarch-I think when the /only/ image is thin thin thin it does cause women to wonder-not because women don't have any common sense but because they are surrounded by the images of what is 'desirable'

 

[ericad]

Because a picture's worth a thousand words...

Are there women who are naturally this thin without being anorexic or bulimic? Sure. I have a couple of friends who have this body type and don't have eating disorders. But those are exceptions to the rule. For the majority of women, being extremely thin is unattainable and unhealthy. I certainly don't want my daughter to see this body type in every magazine and on every TV show because the message being impressed upon girls and women is that this is the only ideal body type. What I'd like to see is a DIVERSITY of body types celebrated, modeled and photographed. From naturally thin to plus size - diversity is the key. Focus on health. Let's see beautiful strong models in a variety of sizes and shapes.

 

[ericad]

Why aren't women who look like this also celebrated by the fashion industry?

Some statistics I found (taken from Plus Model Magazine):
- Twenty years ago the average fashion model weighed 8% less than the average woman. Today, she weighs 23% less.
- Ten years ago plus-size models averaged between size 12 and 18. Today the need for size diversity within the plus-size modeling industry continues to be questioned. The majority of plus-size models on agency boards are between a size 6 and 14, while the customers continue to express their dissatisfaction.
- Most runway models meet the Body Mass Index physical criteria for Anorexia.
- 50% of women wear a size 14 or larger, but most standard clothing outlets cater to sizes 14 or smaller.

 

[monarch64]

I don't know, why aren't women who are older than the age of 25 represented? Does it make me feel bad about myself, at 34, to look at models and see that there isn't much representation of my age group? Eh, a little, if I'm being honest, but it does not affect my self-esteem negatively. I am ultimately responsible for my self-esteem. Getting out of this thread now. I've had this conversation about a million times since my bout with an ED nearly 20 years ago, all my women's studies coursework, and the usual outrage that comes in cycles every few seasons over the fashion industry. Yawn.

 

[ericad]

I don't know, why aren't women who are older than the age of 25 represented? Does it make me feel bad about myself, at 34, to look at models and see that there isn't much representation of my age group? Eh, a little, if I'm being honest, but it does not affect my self-esteem negatively. I am ultimately responsible for my self-esteem. Getting out of this thread now. I've had this conversation about a million times since my bout with an ED nearly 20 years ago, all my women's studies coursework, and the usual outrage that comes in cycles every few seasons over the fashion industry. Yawn.

You may not be concerned about the impact media images have on your adult mind, but what about their impact on young girls? Advertising exists for a reason - because it works. It influences the way people think, and often has the strongest impact and influence on kids. It's totally appropriate that we demand and support changes for the sake of our daughters. I can't imagine that any women, let alone any women who have struggled with body image, eating disorders, etc., wouldn't support and demand change.

I respect and admire any brand, campaign, designer or country who advocates for change and is taking a proactive stance on this issue. It's important.

 

[monarch64]

I don't know, why aren't women who are older than the age of 25 represented? Does it make me feel bad about myself, at 34, to look at models and see that there isn't much representation of my age group? Eh, a little, if I'm being honest, but it does not affect my self-esteem negatively. I am ultimately responsible for my self-esteem. Getting out of this thread now. I've had this conversation about a million times since my bout with an ED nearly 20 years ago, all my women's studies coursework, and the usual outrage that comes in cycles every few seasons over the fashion industry. Yawn.

You may not be concerned about the impact media images have on your adult mind, but what about their impact on young girls? Advertising exists for a reason - because it works. It influences the way people think, and often has the strongest impact and influence on kids. It's totally appropriate that we demand and support changes for the sake of our daughters. I can't imagine that any women, let alone any women who have struggled with body image, eating disorders, etc., wouldn't support and demand change.

I respect and admire any brand, campaign, designer or country who advocates for change and is taking a proactive stance on this issue. It's important.

Trust me when I tell you I've written papers on the subject and had lengthy discussions with therapists. I am close to giving birth to a daughter. I am armed with not only common sense but experience and will bet your bottom dollar be schooling her about all of this lest she develop an ED after looking at a Vogue magazine. Also I never said I did not support a change in the industry. What I did offer was my opinion that a piece of couture aka art (again, my opinion) looks better on a more pared down form than one of substance--kind of like the way some here prefer to see a very thin setting showcasing a diamond causing the diamond to be the visual star of the show.

 

[VRBeauty]

Many younger, less developed women naturally have less body fat. Which is one reason the fashion industry often uses younger women as models. Using "age appropriate" models might help with presenting a more realistic body (and face ) image.

Anyhow, didn't some other country... Spain, maybe... do something similar last year?

ETA - OK, so maybe it was a few years ago...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5341202.stm

 

[justginger]

On one hand, I love the idea that someone is making a stand against unhealthy body images...

On the other, I am somewhat offended that 18.5 is considered "dangerously skinny." My late teens/early 20s were comfortably in the 16ish range, and I always had pinchable fat. I am still around 18...I just have the bone structure of a bird! To me, it's no different than declaring everyone over 20 BMI to be "dangerously overweight" when we all know many examples of people who are at that point (or higher) and are vivacious and healthy.

It seems to be an indiscriminate and inaccurate place to draw the line in the sand. If you were to calculate the BMIs of models like Erica posted, they would be around 12, I reckon. I applaud getting rid of these ridiculous images (or maybe there should be a no photoshopping rule instead...digital alterations often take models from a healthy size to a scarecrow), but that number isn't a good starting point.

 

[Lottie]

Most of the problem within the industry is the age of the girls used. Many of the are around 14 years old (maybe younger), add this to the minimum height of 5"8 and you can see where the low BMI becomes the norm. The problem, as I can see it is that when these girls get to around 16-18 and they develop wider hips and gain a more womanly figure, they either have to choose to lose weight that it is not natural to lose or find another career.

The only real way for any of this to change on a greater scale is for the high end designers to stop using children's bodies to sell clothes to grown women.

 

[Jennifer W]

T2 everyone realizes there are exceptions to generalizations, but thanks for reminding us that there is no magic BMI number.

We've had this conversation several times before, but at what point are there so many exceptions to a generalisation that it becomes meaningless, and when is a generalisation merely a re-statement of a prejudice? (Or, I dislike generalisations as much as you like them).

In this case, I dislike it because as highlighted by some of the people posting here, it is too simplistic. I almost feel that it's adding to the 'body fascism' that some women feel they face, or woman bashing as you describe it. You have to look a particular way and natural, normal healthy variation isn't accommodated in that rather narrow range, defined by a single measure.

So yes, absolutely kudos to Israel for recognising how significant the issue is, and doing something proactive, but I'd respectfully suggest that it is an overly simplistic response to a rather complex problem, as some of the responses here have highlighted. Here's hoping this is the start of a process, to turn the tide.

 

[ericad]

Here are the BMI categories, for anyone interested, as it's relevant to the discussion.

Underweight = <18.5
Normal weight = 18.5–24.9
Overweight = 25–29.9
Obesity = BMI of 30 or greater

And a detailed BMI chart.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

I think the BMI is about as evil as the scale. It gives a person a false sense of what is healthy and what is not. You can have two identical looking women with the same BMI and one will be healthy and one will be not simply because of how much body fat/muscle mass each have.

 

[partgypsy]

Well I'm another person when I was younger had a lower bmi than 18.5 (first 2 years in highschool barely broke 100 pounds at 5' 6". I just had that kind of frame and metabolism. In college gained some weight so I was 115 (18.6 bmi).
My oldest daughter has the same frame, where she is at the 95+ percentaile height and 50% weight so her bmi is low, though she has a great appetite and is healthy.
So hypothetically speaking if my daughter decides to be a model, well when she is young she wouldn't be able to work in Israel.
And you know what? I support Israel making these rules. Don't worry, these models will not be adversely impacted by it (they can still find lots of work in other countries). All it took for me to gain that 15 pounds and be in the over 18.5 territory was maturation and exercise which put muscle on my frame.

And maybe it will slowly edge our thinking that this extreme thinness is the norm. I think it is harmful that girls and young women may aspire to have a shape that maybe 1% of the population has naturally, while ignoring 99% of other body shapes.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

ETA: I will discuss the downside of being underweight, as I experienced it; after you eat, your hands get really cold and you're fainty. If you don't eat on time, you're fainty. If you get up too fast, you're fainty.

Being skinny is not nearly as much fun as people make it out to be.

Ilander - up until about a year and a half ago, my BMI was lower (not 18, though) and I never got cold. Now my BMI is 20.8 and I do get cold (I gained about 15 lbs, but have lost some...now am about 10 lbs more than I was a year and a half ago). The difference was that when I was at a 19.2 BMI, I lifted weights. I think people underestimate the power of muscle mass and how it insulates our bodies. I'm trying to get motivated to start lifting weights again!

 

[Jennifer W]

I think the BMI is about as evil as the scale. It gives a person a false sense of what is healthy and what is not. You can have two identical looking women with the same BMI and one will be healthy and one will be not simply because of how much body fat/muscle mass each have.

I couldn't agree more, MC. It's just another tool for telling us we're doing it wrong.

 

[ericad]

I have to say that, while I support what Israel's trying to accomplish and am grateful every time this issue is put under the spotlight, I don't think that BMI alone is the right tool. What if BMI were used as an elimination tool for plus sized models? If plus size models over a BMI of [insert number here] were automatically eliminated from consideration and denied employment opportunities, we'd all be screaming discrimination.

I think it's a good step towards solving a real and dangerous problem, but I suspect that they will need to tweak their model (pun intended) a bit to get it workable.

Like HCA, BMI alone is not an adequate elimination tool when discussing a subjective issue such as beauty [Erica runs away screaming from the flying tomatoes.]

 

[Jennifer W]

You can run away, but it won't stop you being right Erica.

 

[amc80]

I have a problem with the plus sized models as well. Yes, it's true that more women look like them than the super skinny ones, but does that make it right? I wouldn't want my daughter seeing an overweight model and thinking "see, it's okay if I'm fat" anymore than I'd want her to strive to be underweight.

 

[iheartscience]

On one hand, I love the idea that someone is making a stand against unhealthy body images...

On the other, I am somewhat offended that 18.5 is considered "dangerously skinny." My late teens/early 20s were comfortably in the 16ish range, and I always had pinchable fat. I am still around 18...I just have the bone structure of a bird! To me, it's no different than declaring everyone over 20 BMI to be "dangerously overweight" when we all know many examples of people who are at that point (or higher) and are vivacious and healthy.

It seems to be an indiscriminate and inaccurate place to draw the line in the sand. If you were to calculate the BMIs of models like Erica posted, they would be around 12, I reckon. I applaud getting rid of these ridiculous images (or maybe there should be a no photoshopping rule instead...digital alterations often take models from a healthy size to a scarecrow), but that number isn't a good starting point.

Ditto this-you summed it up way better than I could!

And I totally agree about the models Erica posted-their BMI is probably in the 12ish range, 13 at most. Either way it's not even close to 18.5.

 

[ericad]

Most plus sized models are size 6 - 14. I don't consider this size range to be fat or unhealthy. I think most plus sized runway and print models would likely fall within normal BMI range.

I just want to see images of health and diversity when I look at ads, commercials, magazines and fashion. Not repeated exposure to one extreme or another.