Just joined LIW list

[UnluckyTwin]

Hello all. I''ve been reading this forum for about a month now and have decided, with this past weekend being our anniversary and no proposal, to finally register. Just a note of introduction-- I''ll be 24 in May and I''m and in graudate school (sociology). My partner is 24 and was in the same graduate program as me, so that is where we met. This weekend made only a year of our dating, but we have been living together for about eight months and we are both positive that we have finally found the relationship that we are committed to making last forever.

BF mentioned earlier in our relationship that he thought he would propose around a year into dating, so for a long time I expected the proposal on our anniversary. Getting pre-engagement jitters (the good kind), I started looking at rings online and found this forum. I think this is an awesome community-- I would feel embarrassed to tell my friends how obsessed I have become with engagement rings and how I am semi-planning a ceremony even before he is "officially" ready, so whoever made up the idea to create this forum is a genius! (I actually have mentioned to my friends that I am anxiously waiting and that I''ve been looking at rings online, but they can''t relate in the way that LIW can.)

I don''t know when a proposal is coming. BF quit the grad program after a year because he didn''t like it, so he has just been working part-time since then, trying to figure out what he wanted to do as a career. He''s now ready for something full-time and has been job searching and applying to graduate programs in math, and he says he is not ready to propose until that part of his life is a little more steady. We have separate bank accounts and split the bills evenly and, as a feminist, I would not let him "support" me even if he could, so I''ve asked him why he felt he needed a bigger income in order to propose, but he said it''s less about the income and more about wanting both of our families to feel proud of him at the ceremony, rather than looking at him and wondering what he is doing with his life. So, I''ve been waiting for him to hear back about graduate school or a full-time job in hopes that he''ll propose as soon as he hears word that he has something steady. I don''t know if he actually would, but that is my hope. (Otherwise I''ll be left wondering why, if he says he is committed and we already live together, he still won''t take the plunge-- which I know I shouldn''t be thinking because I know he is committed-- argh!)

The...ironic? (I don''t know the right word here)...part of all this is that I am fairly certain we will not legally get married. We''ve had many conversations about it and that seems to be where we are at this point. I strongly believe that we should not legally marry until gay and lesbian couples can marry, and I also have some qualms about marriage as an institution. He would like to legally marry, but he is okay with not doing so, especially since it wouldn''t change our relationship very much. (We both agreed that if it made practical sense to marry later-- for example, if we were going to adopt a child and only married couples could do so-- that we would legally wed at that point.) So at this point in our lives, we both think it would be best to just have a ceremony-- more like a party-- so that both sides of the family could meet each other (his family lives near us, my family lives many states away) and we could join our lives together in that way.

Given these issues and both of us being feminists, we have also talked about whether there would be an actual proposal. I felt like we could both just say while we were sitting on the couch one night that we were ready to have the ceremony/party and that we didn''t need something traditional or gendered like a proposal from man to woman with ring. However, given that I would be ready to start planning immediately and he would prefer to wait until his job/career is more secure (especially since a ceremony/party requires money and I wouldn''t want to use my parents'' money for that, despire their offers), we decided that he would be the one to determine when it was time. Because he is more of a romantic when it comes to weddings than I am, I therefore imagine that when he is ready, he will not tell me, but ask me, with a ring. I imagine both of us wearing rings to symbolize our commitment, but I would not wear multiple bands that typically signifies a marriage.

Honestly, I never envisioned myself wanting a diamond ring. I imagined myself wearing something more like a plain silver band, especially considering the sociological conflict and inequality reproduction that comes with diamonds. However, when I found out about conflict-free diamonds, I couldn''t help but look at some online, and that''s probably what started my recent craze. I don''t know what kind of ring BF would pick out for me, and I honestly don''t think he would ask me what I liked because he would want it to be a surprise. I feel like if I tell him what I like ("Honey, please do not purchase me a ring without character-- I want a ring with an antique, timeless feel, like an oval cut possbily with a pave halo and/or side stones..."), it will feel like pressure, which he already feels enough of trying to straighten out his career.

SO, all of that is to say, I don''t know if or when a proposal is coming with or without a ring that I may or may not like.

But, in the meantime, I''m glad to be here with people who understand the anxiety that comes with waiting and have nightmares that the ring will be awful.

 

[verypatientlywaiting]

Welcome! Your b/f sounds like a smart guy wanting to wait until he''s more financially stable.
But, I have to say, please be sure that you don''t care about getting married as much as you say you don''t. My sister made the mistake of constantly saying she didn''t want to get married because she didn''t think it meant all that much, especially since she didn''t want any children. Well, the guy she was with at the time was on the fence about kids & was pretty sure he wanted to get married. They ended up dating 4 & 1/2 years when she slowly came to realize that she did in fact want to get married afterall...but at that point, he didn''t have any desire to get married and they eventually broke up. Hopefully this won''t happen to you guys...sorry, I didn''t mean to be a Debbie Downer!

 

[jewelz617]

There seem to be a lot of... issues going into this. From feminism, to the legal aspect of marriage, gender roles to conflict diamonds...

Just relax. Enjoy being in a relationship. It''s good to have ideals and a point of view but if you over analyze every single thing it ruins the fun. Just enjoy being in a relationship. You guys are young and a year is not that long to be together.

Relax and enjoy just being with your boyfriend! You will miss this time someday.

 

[karpouzi]

Welcome! I agree with PinkAsscher. Be kind to yourselves! Forgive me for saying this, but I see a lot of internal conflict in your post. It''s like you want a lot of the traditional stuff but you interpret it as antifeminist, so you find a roundabout way of rationalizing it. For example, what you say about how it is "gendered" to have a traditional proposal, but he''s the one who will be determining the timing in your situation anyway, so he will probably ask you...

Relax! I don''t see what''s antifeminist about a guy making a formal proposal after the two of you have already discussed it and agreed you want to be together forever. The proposal is between you two. And it''s OK to want a diamond! (I resisted the desire for a while, supposing diamonds to be overpriced and ethically questionable and the tradition to be wholly a result of clever marketing, but after doing a lot of research about different simulants and alternative gemstones, I''ve concluded that diamonds are popular mainly because they''re pretty. And that''s OK!) It''s even OK to want an engagement ring AND a wedding band! And it''d be OK to want to get married even if your gay friends can''t. (Say my gay friends.) And...

I think it''s great to put a lot of thought into our culture''s marriage traditions and institutions so that you aren''t just blindly going along with them because that''s what one does. But that doesn''t mean you can''t or shouldn''t embrace those traditions if they are what you really want.

 

[HopeDream]

Hi Unluckytwin,

What an exciting time!

Have you read Elizabeth Gilbert''s book Comitted? It''s a very interesting analysis of the history and current practice of western marriage, I think it might interest you.

I fully support your decision not to marry, if that is what''s right for you, but do keep in mind that marriage confers benefits in certain situations: during a medical emergency a spouse is allowed to make important decisions about medical care, and has visiting priviledges, Spouses can also inherit without a will, and if you decide to move to another country, but only one of you gets a work visa, a spouse would be eligable for a spousal visa (vs being SOL). I''m not sure if fiance status confers the same benefits - it may.

Have fun and enjoy LIW!

 

[RaiKai]

Date: 3/16/2010 5:26:50 PM
Author: karpouzi
Welcome! I agree with PinkAsscher. Be kind to yourselves! Forgive me for saying this, but I see a lot of internal conflict in your post. It's like you want a lot of the traditional stuff but you interpret it as antifeminist, so you find a roundabout way of rationalizing it. For example, what you say about how it is 'gendered' to have a traditional proposal, but he's the one who will be determining the timing in your situation anyway, so he will probably ask you...


Relax! I don't see what's antifeminist about a guy making a formal proposal after the two of you have already discussed it and agreed you want to be together forever. The proposal is between you two. And it's OK to want a diamond! (I resisted the desire for a while, supposing diamonds to be overpriced and ethically questionable and the tradition to be wholly a result of clever marketing, but after doing a lot of research about different simulants and alternative gemstones, I've concluded that diamonds are popular mainly because they're pretty. And that's OK!) It's even OK to want an engagement ring AND a wedding band! And it'd be OK to want to get married even if your gay friends can't. (Say my gay friends.) And...


I think it's great to put a lot of thought into our culture's marriage traditions and institutions so that you aren't just blindly going along with them because that's what one does. But that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't embrace those traditions if they are what you really want.

THIS, exactly.

I read your original post and thought "this girl is really rationalizing things".

It also reminds me somewhat of my much younger self who wanted to feel the "security" I thought came with commitment as I felt insecure about my own relationship(s), but knew I was really not ready to get married (and more so felt insecure about my partner-at-the-times commitment). You are not me, obviously, but a lot of things jumped out at me in your post.

So, I would come up with all sorts of rationalizations on why I could not get married, but also sort of seek out the security I wanted. It took me a long time to realize uncertainty is just part of life, that when it feels right it just feels right, and that when you are committed to one another - you know it married or not. I was in a past long term relationship (we were common law) where I often felt the same confusion and contradictions. We ended up separating after almost four years together as we both realized we felt the same same conflicting issues (though we loved and cared about one another). We were simply not ready, and simply not ready with each other.

I grew up in a household where marriage was not propagated as the end all be all. My mother and stepfather have lived together without marriage for 25 years! They got married a month after I did

My brother is gay. He and his partner have been together many years. They have been engaged a couple years ago and have not got around to a wedding yet. They CAN get legally married here in Canada. But, if they could not, I know my brother would still have been supportive and happy for me.

Feminists get married too. I did, and I am quite alright that my husband asked me (via a text message mind you and I am quite alright that though I did not originally choose to get an e-ring, I now want one, talked about it with my husband, and am looking for one and paying for it with my own tax refund (sapphire - not diamond!). Seriously, I am glad I waited to get married, however, I feel incredibly fortunate and blessed to have met my husband and while we both had our fears about marriage (which we discussed) there was no doubt in our minds we wanted to marry one another. I never had any actual pre-engagement jitters or anxieties because our relationship together felt so natural and comfortable, that there was never any question of what was on the others mind, or whether he was committed or I was committed, etc. Neither of us cared about going along with the wedding industry. We had a fun, unique ceremony with an ultra small guest list and we would not change a thing. We love being married though.

Don't sell yourself short. When the time is right for you both and you are both in a healthy place as individuals and in your relationship, and you are with the right person (who I imagine you believe is your boyfriend), marriage is wonderful. And it is really not just a piece of paper. I used to think this too when I was far younger and rationalize it until the cows came home. And then I realized, it really isn't. It is not easy, but it has been amazing. That is not to say you must get married by any means to be committed (i.e. see my parents above!) but marriage is also not meaningless or just about the party. You as an individual and as a couple can define what marriage means for YOU and that does not have to have anything to do with the historical connotations, or any such thing.

Until you both ARE there (he isn't by the sounds of it), enjoy the relationship you do have. Enjoy continuing to learn about one another AND yourself as an individual. You have not been together very long and there is probably a breadth of things to learn together! Strive to be even MORE open and honest with one another. And in time, if you really are "meant to be", it will happen more naturally then you can imagine without these uncertainties or bargaining or rationalizing or so on.

 

[lulu]

I am a little confused. You already live together and you don''t want to legally marry, so what kind of proposal are you waiting for? Or do you just want a ring? Sorry, just not clear to me.

 

[UnluckyTwin]

:-/ Well, that was not quite the welcome I expected, I must say...

There is not any conflict in my partner and I''s decision not to legally wed. We are both confident in our principles and, while we recognize that we are going an unconventional route, we have no qualms about finding practical ways to join our lives together in a loving manner. We arrived at this decision together after considering all the possibile consequences of marrying or not marrying, and we feel that it is the best choice for us now (as many of you pointed out, marriage confers benefits and later, if necessary, we may wed for practical purposes). More so, our talking about how to live our lives in a feminist way certainly does not preclude our having fun in the "dating" period. I have more fun with him than with anyone else I know.

As I said, I know this route is unconventional and I don''t ask to be validated. I was merely looking for a place to share pre-engagement jitters (the good kind) with those who understood.

 

[RaiKai]

That still does not answer what you are looking for though.....it sounds like you are seeking a proposal to organize a party for your families to meet?

What exactly are you seeking a proposal OF? Lots of couples have relationships where they don't get married (i.e. my own mother and stepfather, my brother and his partner, myself in a long term past relationship). I mean, MANY MANY people make decisions not to legally wed everyday and yet live together as a couple - you are not different than any of these couples in that respect at all. But, there are no proposals involved. It was just a matter of the two people deciding to do for their relationship what worked for them.

So people here are unclear what you are wanting (myself included). It is a bit confusing to hear you have "pre-engagement" jitters, and are going on about a proposal, and a ring to accompany that proposal, yet do not want to get legally married. If you aren't getting married, you aren't getting "engaged" (which is the promise to marry) so what is there to have jitters about? You have already said you are together, want to be together, and do not want to get legally married. That does not mean you cannot get a ring if you really want one (my mother received several as gifts in the 25 years before my mother and stepfather married and sometimes would wear them on her ring finger, etc - but these were not "engagement" rings or proposals or engagements...).

If you want a party for your families to meet and to celebrate your relationship, why don't you just arrange a get-together for your families to meet around one of your dating anniversaries or something? And be clear with them that you are not having a legal ceremony.

 

[UnluckyTwin]

I use the word "engagement" to signify the planning period that comes before a ceremony/party. I don''t know if there will be a ring then or not. We will both definitely wear rings, but we may wait until the ceremony. The reason we are not yet going ahead with the planning is because my partner only has a part-time job and wants to wait until he has a full-time job. It costs money to rent a place and feed a lot of people, and he wants both our families to be proud of us and what we are doing with our lives (he feels a little insecure about only working part-time). When he gets a full-time job, he will then be ready for us to more officially join our families together. So, while I am ready now, he is not, and therefore we won''t take steps to plan until he is. This is why he will initiate the planning period, not me. Otherwise, like I said in my original post, we would agree together very informally to start the planning. I hope that answers the questions.

 

[RaiKai]

Date: 3/17/2010 5:57:43 PM
Author: UnluckyTwin
I use the word 'engagement' to signify the planning period that comes before a ceremony/party. I don't know if there will be a ring then or not. We will both definitely wear rings, but we may wait until the ceremony. The reason we are not yet going ahead with the planning is because my partner only has a part-time job and wants to wait until he has a full-time job. It costs money to rent a place and feed a lot of people, and he wants both our families to be proud of us and what we are doing with our lives (he feels a little insecure about only working part-time). When he gets a full-time job, he will then be ready for us to more officially join our families together. So, while I am ready now, he is not, and therefore we won't take steps to plan until he is. This is why he will initiate the planning period, not me. Otherwise, like I said in my original post, we would agree together very informally to start the planning. I hope that answers the questions.

Okay, I think I understand where you are coming from. I myself would not call that an engagement, and don't quite understand personally going through the ceremony and the "wedding" like deal but not with the legal aspect, but I understand how you are using the meaning for your own situation more clearly now.

Just keep in mind in the long-term future should you DO decide that you do want to be legally married that marriage can be defined how YOU as a couple choose it to be defined and lived. Don't assume it is must be the archaic, patriarchal tradition that sometimes it is claimed to be by a lot of feminist thought (again, coming from a feminist). I can quite easily tell you that my marriage is NOT one defined by traditional roles in the least - we are equals who respect each others individuality and personhood and don't live or relate to one another according to gender-stereotypes, and so forth.....and a wedding itself can be whatever you want it to be - we had a total hippie-style, totally non-traditional and non-patriarchal wedding!

 

[jewelz617]

Date: 3/17/2010 5:37:09 PM
Author: UnluckyTwin
:-/ Well, that was not quite the welcome I expected, I must say...


There is not any conflict in my partner and I''s decision not to legally wed. We are both confident in our principles and, while we recognize that we are going an unconventional route, we have no qualms about finding practical ways to join our lives together in a loving manner. We arrived at this decision together after considering all the possibile consequences of marrying or not marrying, and we feel that it is the best choice for us now (as many of you pointed out, marriage confers benefits and later, if necessary, we may wed for practical purposes). More so, our talking about how to live our lives in a feminist way certainly does not preclude our having fun in the ''dating'' period. I have more fun with him than with anyone else I know.


As I said, I know this route is unconventional and I don''t ask to be validated. I was merely looking for a place to share pre-engagement jitters (the good kind) with those who understood.

I don''t think anyone was being unwelcoming. Just looking for clarification. I mean, what you wrote is a lot to explain, especially when most people are used to just "I''m waiting for my boyfriend to propose."

 

[KittyGolightly]

Date: 3/17/2010 5:57:43 PM
Author: UnluckyTwin
I use the word ''engagement'' to signify the planning period that comes before a ceremony/party. I don''t know if there will be a ring then or not. We will both definitely wear rings, but we may wait until the ceremony. The reason we are not yet going ahead with the planning is because my partner only has a part-time job and wants to wait until he has a full-time job. It costs money to rent a place and feed a lot of people, and he wants both our families to be proud of us and what we are doing with our lives (he feels a little insecure about only working part-time). When he gets a full-time job, he will then be ready for us to more officially join our families together. So, while I am ready now, he is not, and therefore we won''t take steps to plan until he is. This is why he will initiate the planning period, not me. Otherwise, like I said in my original post, we would agree together very informally to start the planning. I hope that answers the questions.

Sounds like a great plan. Best wishes to you both, and happy hunting for a ring! I personally love ovals, especially in antique-style settings.

 

[UnluckyTwin]

Thanks Kitty. The more beautiful rings I see on PS, the more open I am about whether it''s an oval or not. Everyone has such pretty ideas!

 

[Indylady]

Welcome!!

Its great to meet a fellow Sociologist! (I''m an undergraduate Sociology/Women''s Studies major)

 

[UnluckyTwin]

Very cool! Gender is my focus too. Are you planning to go to graduate school? Unfortunately a bachelor''s in sociology isn''t the most useful degree.

I''m finding grad school to be lots of fun though. I hope you consider it.

 

[dinamit]

Hello UnluckyTwin and welcome!

I felt compelled to reply as for most part I consider myself a feminist and worked for a women''s environmental charity before I had my son. I know what''s it''s like trying to apply your principles and ethics to everyday life, and how conflicting that can be at times. Over the years, I''ve reached a sort of compromise with myself, I do the very best I can but leave some rules for flexibility, so that I don''t drive myself and everyone else nuts, and also to just relax when I can.

I always liked the idea of being proposed to with a ring. I, too, was concerned about the ethics but these days there are many options for those who care about that. The Western engagement process is part marketing, part tradition, but I consider it a nice tradition and something I want. I am VERY hot when it comes to women''s rights and equality but fully support women who choose to conform to more traditional feminine roles too - as long as it''s their choice. After all, feminism itself has gone through many phases over the decades, and changed from the days when it was mainly about women proving that they can be as men to women having the freedom to be exactly what they want to me, and getting acknowledged for that.

Anyway, I''ve gone on a bit of a rant, sorry! It''s great that you are in such a loving, commited relationship. To me, it comes across that while there is no doubt your guy truly loves you, he is a little young and needs to figure stuff out before he feels like more complete as a person and ready to commit - whether that might be with a formal proposal or a ceremony, as you say. It''s all about him and how he feels about himself, and you seem to understand that. So please try not to put any pressure on him and give him time - the relationship is in the right place, which is the most important, and everything will take it''s natural cause and fall into place.

Oh, and btw, civil partnerships have totally taken off here in the UK, which is fantastic, so you could tie the knot without feeling guilty!

 

[UnluckyTwin]

Hi dinamit. I just tpyed a response and got an error message, so I''ll re-type and hope it doesn''t show up twice...? As for your suggestion about civil unions, my partner and I had talked about getting married in a state where gay folks could also marry, but we didn''t feel right bringing home the rights and privileges that gay couples lose once they return to their home states. Plus, we have a non-married role model couple who have legally protected themselves in the event of sickness/separation/etc. by drawing up lots of documents that are available to gay people, and my partner and I have no qualms about doing that. Besides, maybe by the time his career gets underway, gay marriage will be legal everywhere. We likely still wouldn''t legally marry, but we would probably at least talk about it and consider it. Anywho, thanks for the welcome!