lmurden
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- May 3, 2004
- Messages
- 2,101
Just a Thought on Hurricane Katrina
- Thread starter Shay37
- Start date
- Status
pearcrazy
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- May 16, 2004
- Messages
- 1,438
Busing people out of the city before the storm hit would have taken a miracle. My FIL in addition to being a Justice of the Peace in St. Charles Parish is a school district bus driver and also runs a private dump truck service. (Can you imagine how busy he''s going to be here shortly?) St. Charles Parish is only 15 miles from NO. Even using school buses now to get folks out of the city is going to be a Hurculean effort. Here''s why. When the storm was approaching, all the bus drivers were asked to not fill up their tanks after the Friday afternoon dropoff of the children, the reason being that if the buses were swamped with water they didn''t want them to leach gasoline out and into the flood waters. So, St. Charles Parish has about 300 school buses sitting high and dry (thank goodness) and on empty. There is no place to get enough diesel fuel to fill them to capacity. The second issue is finding enough bus drivers to get them on the road. Most folks like my in-laws are still without power and phone IF they have returned to the area at all so even rounding up all the drivers needed will take time. I think ordering Greyhound buses into the area from other areas of the country is a better solution. My MIL is a border line diabetic and is not feeling well, the heat is oppressive, they are running low on potable water and food and they are going to be leaving the area again to stay with friends in Northern Mississippi and if the power stays off long enough down there may come stay with us here in NC. They were told that St. Charles Parish which had relatively minor impact may be one of the LUCKY ones and get power in about 15 days. Yes, that''s FIFTEEN DAYS. In addition to the 5 days they''ve already been without. My father in law may come back to help with the evacuation or not, none of us are too keen on him going into New Orleans to be shot at or mugged trying to evacuate people. Maybe it''s selfish, but he is a 68 year old man (granted a very healthy and lively 68 year old man) but an older man nonetheless and not match for young thugs. He''s been mugged in New Orleans in the past. The situation continues to get worse as bands of criminals continue to go on the rampage. Now there are reports of women being raped, police being shot at, rescue personel being mugged and beaten and arson. The chemical plant that exploded this morning is still being investigated and may be the result of arson as well. How can we help people when they keep making their own situation worse?
Everyone is focused on the situation in New Orleans but keep in mind that there are hundreds of thousands of people in other parts of La, Mississippi and Alabama as well as the people in Florida who are also still waiting for aid. The finger pointing will go on for years over who''s to blame for this tragedy. The only one that can fully be blamed is Katrina. The city has to be restored to order, evacuated and drained before anyone can even consider whether or not it will be rebuilt.
Everyone is focused on the situation in New Orleans but keep in mind that there are hundreds of thousands of people in other parts of La, Mississippi and Alabama as well as the people in Florida who are also still waiting for aid. The finger pointing will go on for years over who''s to blame for this tragedy. The only one that can fully be blamed is Katrina. The city has to be restored to order, evacuated and drained before anyone can even consider whether or not it will be rebuilt.
pearcrazy
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- May 16, 2004
- Messages
- 1,438
Yes I can. The media come into town with their own food and water. There are probably about 300 of them. They have their own helicopters and air conditioned trucks. There are about 90,000 people to get food and water to. Even the media aren''t given military protection, they position themselves around police and National Guardsmen on their own. I don''t think any of us can understand the logistics of getting food, water and shelter to that many people in a city that is mostly under water.
True enough. And, lodging blame is an easy way for us to "accept" a situation in which we are helpless.
But, help is help. Some write checks. Some open their house (Perry
Me, I''m of the check writing kind. Money is not going to solve the current situation. Neither is assigning blame. I feel for these people and hope relief is on their way ASAP. I''m at a loss for a solution.
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2004
- Messages
- 2,547
UmmTankMan2:
My county''s school system has 1400 school buses. They average 7mpg and a gas tank of 60 gallons - that''s a 210-mile round trip before refueling. If they seat about 40 people each (some seat 70), and combine that with 1400 Guard troops or just volunteers, and that''s 56,000 people that could be moved 200 miles using 84000 gallons of gas. You''d need less than 20 fuel tanker trailers to refuel them. If my school district would have more than enough buses to do this, why is the entire state of LA unable to come up with as many and 20 measley fuel tankers? So, no, I don''t understand that part.
Umm:
You are thinking things are normal. They are far from it. Much of LA is affected. The regional electrical utility, Entergy, reports that Katrina knocked out about 790,000 customers in Louisana and about 300,000 in Mississippi (a customer is a household or a business).
As of this morning they had restored service to about 363,000 customers in both states (that''s the easy ones folks).
Assuming that half of the LA customers were in the New Orleans area this indicates that the rest of Louisana is damaged about as much as Mississippi.
This is not just that the power is out. It is that in many cases the power lines are down across roads, treas are down across roads and power lines, etc.
General phone service has been knocked out to the same area for the samer reasons: the wires are down.
You just don''t call up a bunch of busses (or anything else) out of a disaster area. Even if you can contact them and they head your way - the roads are blocked or washed out and travel is
s l o w.
Keep in mind that much of Louisana is rural country, Texas to the west is also largly rural. Not a huge stockpile of busses there either.
Normal tanker trucks are not set up to fuel vehicles directly either. While you can say that such a rig would not be that difficult to fabricate. Not in an area without power and access to supplies. Sure, a dozen shops in most normal cities could make such a rig in a day. Things just arn''t normal.
In 1980 I personally sat in a city without phones and power for a week after a windstorm (we at least had water). The first day we got up, started eating the ice cream in the freezer, and proceeded with hand saws, hatchets, and axes to start clearing the road with neighbors (one person even had a chain saw they got started after an hour or so). By the end of the day we had a path cut through enough of the downed trees and power polls so that a vehicle could snake down the city street to a main city road that had been cleared (mainly by an endloader / bulldozer that pushed trees and polls aside).
We barbacued a lot of food over the next week. At least we could drive to the next city and get fuel, food, and other supplies after that first day.
There were enough nails on the road that many vehicles suffered flat tires.
Since then several times I have also driven to check on freinds in tornado zones and also gotten flat tires from nails as well (in fact, the only flat tires I have had in 15 years have been from nails after tornado''s hit an area).
It''s also hard to understand why the city was not even ready for a Category 3 hurricane. It''s below sea level. It''s kept dry by levees and pumps. It''s right between the Mississipi and the Gulf, a very active hurricane region. If it were some random town or whatever and the feds didn''t have the money to protect it, fine, their fault for buiding below sea level. But it''s New Orleans. It''s a major city, a major port, the hub of our oil imports and refining operations... ugh. Yeah, of course my hindsight is 20/20; I didnt'' even know New Orleans was below sea level until after it flooded, but people knew. The governor, mayor, senators and representatives had to know these important facts and someone still decided to cut the funding. I think the odds were slim that a big hurricane would hit New Orleans like this and so someone gambled and lost.
Actually, New Orleans has suvived many near misses from a catagory 3 hurricane. Remember, Katrina was worse.
They typically evacuate once or twice a year (at least about 80% of the people). No one has ever suggested that they should evacuate everybody for each hurricane, or for any hurricane.
This is not a case of the local people cutting the funding - not really. The federal goverment (and the rest of the US) has funded billons of dollars of levies and other things for New Orleans. In fact, without such funding New Orleans as it exist today would not even exist. There is just a limit to how much the US congress is willing to funnell into one city (Many of the other cities in the US would also like to get some federal funding for things as well...).
In the end, New Orleans as we know it today is one of the experiments proposed by the Army Core of Engineers in the 30''s - 50''s. The feeling was that it was posssible to build these levies and control the rivers and lakes to have more land to develop. Since the 70''s this has been significantly questiond as many otherArmy Core of Engineer''s river control projects failed. It was recognized that given a big enough storm that no matter what was built to protect New Orleans that it would be overwhelmed at some point. Money could be better spent elsewhere.
The Army Core of Engineers no longer claims an ability to control the rivers it used to; It is recognized that in most cases "Mother Nature" will win in the end. Yet they still hold on where they can.
Even the concept that the Mississippi river will flow down to New Orleans is a temporary (and for now manmade) concept. Left to its own devices the Mississippi river would have long ago changed its outlet several undred miles to the west completely bypassing the New Orleans area. The Army Core of Engineers built a huge dam/dike to keep the Mississippi on its present course. In the early 90''s there was a huge flood of the entire Mississippi river drainage basin and that dam/dike almost failed. Someday it will fail, and the Mississippi river will move completely bypassing New Orleans. No one deny''s this. It''s just waiting to happen. All it takes is the right storm - or series of storms.
Had the US, and the US Core of Engineer''s never built the levies - this tradegy never would have happened. A much smaller city would have existed there.
In the end, in general we the people of the US allow people to build in known hazardous areas. Be it New Orleans where either a huricane or levie failure would flood the city, or the California coastal hills that we know will collapse. We as a nation allow people to build and live there. I am OK with that - as long as those people accept responsibility for that risk.
No one forced anyone to live in New Orleans - and the danger was well know, but denied by many. There is not a single person who stayed in New Orleans that could not have moved (or their parents could not have moved) elsewhere in the nation.
No one forces people to build housed on Cap Hatteris, or on the sand banks of Lake Michagan, or on the mud hills of California, or in San Fransisco where the "big one" will eventually hit (and many other areas in the US). These are all known to be geologically unstable areas.
No one should also be too upset when Mother Nature claims its own either.
On a personal level, I have great feelings related to people involved. That is one of the reasons I have opened my house to someone who wants to start over. However, on a general level. We the people of the US are responsible - in general - for allowing significant development - even encouraging it - in geological unstable areas. When are we going to stop it. When are we going to say that you can''t build on the edge of the lake and in many other areas. What is wrong with having the house set back a ways and just having a dock or small boat house down on the lake.
If we did not encourage such development. If we limited it. If there was no federal flood or other insurance for these areas (other than a one time relocation for pre-exisiting development). There would not be such tragedies and the damage from events will be minor in comparison.
My home state of Wisconsin has done a fair job of this over the last 30 years. I have watched as flood plane restrictions were put into place on where people could build (and even rebuild after a flood) and have watched as countless areas were flooded and then the houses were rebuilt eleswere. I have even seen entire towns moved up the hills - with the former main streat becomming a park area. Come the occasional bad spring floods and talk to the old timers and the new comers when the top of the park shelter is peaking out of the water. Very few regrets having to move. The vast majority look and say that it was the best thing for them in the long run, even though most will tell you that they didn''t feel that way when they were told they could not rebuild where they were.
Why don''t we adopt similar measures all over the US?
Perry
My county''s school system has 1400 school buses. They average 7mpg and a gas tank of 60 gallons - that''s a 210-mile round trip before refueling. If they seat about 40 people each (some seat 70), and combine that with 1400 Guard troops or just volunteers, and that''s 56,000 people that could be moved 200 miles using 84000 gallons of gas. You''d need less than 20 fuel tanker trailers to refuel them. If my school district would have more than enough buses to do this, why is the entire state of LA unable to come up with as many and 20 measley fuel tankers? So, no, I don''t understand that part.
Umm:
You are thinking things are normal. They are far from it. Much of LA is affected. The regional electrical utility, Entergy, reports that Katrina knocked out about 790,000 customers in Louisana and about 300,000 in Mississippi (a customer is a household or a business).
As of this morning they had restored service to about 363,000 customers in both states (that''s the easy ones folks).
Assuming that half of the LA customers were in the New Orleans area this indicates that the rest of Louisana is damaged about as much as Mississippi.
This is not just that the power is out. It is that in many cases the power lines are down across roads, treas are down across roads and power lines, etc.
General phone service has been knocked out to the same area for the samer reasons: the wires are down.
You just don''t call up a bunch of busses (or anything else) out of a disaster area. Even if you can contact them and they head your way - the roads are blocked or washed out and travel is
s l o w.
Keep in mind that much of Louisana is rural country, Texas to the west is also largly rural. Not a huge stockpile of busses there either.
Normal tanker trucks are not set up to fuel vehicles directly either. While you can say that such a rig would not be that difficult to fabricate. Not in an area without power and access to supplies. Sure, a dozen shops in most normal cities could make such a rig in a day. Things just arn''t normal.
In 1980 I personally sat in a city without phones and power for a week after a windstorm (we at least had water). The first day we got up, started eating the ice cream in the freezer, and proceeded with hand saws, hatchets, and axes to start clearing the road with neighbors (one person even had a chain saw they got started after an hour or so). By the end of the day we had a path cut through enough of the downed trees and power polls so that a vehicle could snake down the city street to a main city road that had been cleared (mainly by an endloader / bulldozer that pushed trees and polls aside).
We barbacued a lot of food over the next week. At least we could drive to the next city and get fuel, food, and other supplies after that first day.
There were enough nails on the road that many vehicles suffered flat tires.
Since then several times I have also driven to check on freinds in tornado zones and also gotten flat tires from nails as well (in fact, the only flat tires I have had in 15 years have been from nails after tornado''s hit an area).
It''s also hard to understand why the city was not even ready for a Category 3 hurricane. It''s below sea level. It''s kept dry by levees and pumps. It''s right between the Mississipi and the Gulf, a very active hurricane region. If it were some random town or whatever and the feds didn''t have the money to protect it, fine, their fault for buiding below sea level. But it''s New Orleans. It''s a major city, a major port, the hub of our oil imports and refining operations... ugh. Yeah, of course my hindsight is 20/20; I didnt'' even know New Orleans was below sea level until after it flooded, but people knew. The governor, mayor, senators and representatives had to know these important facts and someone still decided to cut the funding. I think the odds were slim that a big hurricane would hit New Orleans like this and so someone gambled and lost.
Actually, New Orleans has suvived many near misses from a catagory 3 hurricane. Remember, Katrina was worse.
They typically evacuate once or twice a year (at least about 80% of the people). No one has ever suggested that they should evacuate everybody for each hurricane, or for any hurricane.
This is not a case of the local people cutting the funding - not really. The federal goverment (and the rest of the US) has funded billons of dollars of levies and other things for New Orleans. In fact, without such funding New Orleans as it exist today would not even exist. There is just a limit to how much the US congress is willing to funnell into one city (Many of the other cities in the US would also like to get some federal funding for things as well...).
In the end, New Orleans as we know it today is one of the experiments proposed by the Army Core of Engineers in the 30''s - 50''s. The feeling was that it was posssible to build these levies and control the rivers and lakes to have more land to develop. Since the 70''s this has been significantly questiond as many otherArmy Core of Engineer''s river control projects failed. It was recognized that given a big enough storm that no matter what was built to protect New Orleans that it would be overwhelmed at some point. Money could be better spent elsewhere.
The Army Core of Engineers no longer claims an ability to control the rivers it used to; It is recognized that in most cases "Mother Nature" will win in the end. Yet they still hold on where they can.
Even the concept that the Mississippi river will flow down to New Orleans is a temporary (and for now manmade) concept. Left to its own devices the Mississippi river would have long ago changed its outlet several undred miles to the west completely bypassing the New Orleans area. The Army Core of Engineers built a huge dam/dike to keep the Mississippi on its present course. In the early 90''s there was a huge flood of the entire Mississippi river drainage basin and that dam/dike almost failed. Someday it will fail, and the Mississippi river will move completely bypassing New Orleans. No one deny''s this. It''s just waiting to happen. All it takes is the right storm - or series of storms.
Had the US, and the US Core of Engineer''s never built the levies - this tradegy never would have happened. A much smaller city would have existed there.
In the end, in general we the people of the US allow people to build in known hazardous areas. Be it New Orleans where either a huricane or levie failure would flood the city, or the California coastal hills that we know will collapse. We as a nation allow people to build and live there. I am OK with that - as long as those people accept responsibility for that risk.
No one forced anyone to live in New Orleans - and the danger was well know, but denied by many. There is not a single person who stayed in New Orleans that could not have moved (or their parents could not have moved) elsewhere in the nation.
No one forces people to build housed on Cap Hatteris, or on the sand banks of Lake Michagan, or on the mud hills of California, or in San Fransisco where the "big one" will eventually hit (and many other areas in the US). These are all known to be geologically unstable areas.
No one should also be too upset when Mother Nature claims its own either.
On a personal level, I have great feelings related to people involved. That is one of the reasons I have opened my house to someone who wants to start over. However, on a general level. We the people of the US are responsible - in general - for allowing significant development - even encouraging it - in geological unstable areas. When are we going to stop it. When are we going to say that you can''t build on the edge of the lake and in many other areas. What is wrong with having the house set back a ways and just having a dock or small boat house down on the lake.
If we did not encourage such development. If we limited it. If there was no federal flood or other insurance for these areas (other than a one time relocation for pre-exisiting development). There would not be such tragedies and the damage from events will be minor in comparison.
My home state of Wisconsin has done a fair job of this over the last 30 years. I have watched as flood plane restrictions were put into place on where people could build (and even rebuild after a flood) and have watched as countless areas were flooded and then the houses were rebuilt eleswere. I have even seen entire towns moved up the hills - with the former main streat becomming a park area. Come the occasional bad spring floods and talk to the old timers and the new comers when the top of the park shelter is peaking out of the water. Very few regrets having to move. The vast majority look and say that it was the best thing for them in the long run, even though most will tell you that they didn''t feel that way when they were told they could not rebuild where they were.
Why don''t we adopt similar measures all over the US?
Perry
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2004
- Messages
- 2,547
lmurden
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- May 3, 2004
- Messages
- 2,101
Jennifer5973
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2003
- Messages
- 4,107
I think we can say and post what we feel/think within forum rules on any thread. For some, debatiing or commenting on aspects of the issue is comforting. I see no correlation between expressing opinions and hindering relief efforts. I doubt anyone's venting here is standing in the way of his intentions to help in whatever way he can.
This is an important topic that affects all of us...so responding to it through this forum is one way for all of us to find an outlet for the frustration we all feel...with that said...
Shay: You have mentioned so much that I can honestly say most of us on some level have felt. And I feel you are correct about so much of the points you made...I detest guns, but they have their place and unfortunately, they are needed.
Jennifer5973: You go girl! I echo your sentiments and out and out frustrations with celebrities! In the "rags", there is practically daily coverage and updates about Jessica Simpson''s shopping sprees...she is one that could seriously make a financial dent in donations with the $ she would normally(whatever is "normal" for her) spend. That would help most of us regular folk think that maybe she is authentic with her concern for these devastated people. She is just an example of over-pampered celebs...most--if not all who are making the serious $$$-- could do the same.
Widget: You had so many good points...the celebs need to get real and see it from our positions...get genuine or shut up! Morgan Freeman was in today''s news for putting together an auction of HIS personal stuff--memorabilia from past movies, passes to the screening for his new movie, "An Unfinished Life", as well as a getaway, etc., with ALL proceeds going to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. I felt this showed authentic concern since the news indicated HE organized it and HE is chiefly doing the donating in this particular effort. You give up some of YOU for the better good of someone else...
Kaleigh: I ditto your feelings...Let''s see some of our "pretty celebs" (Nick and Jessica--just as an example, not picking on them only) get real and get out there and get dirty, helping those who absolutely cannot help themselves. Athel Neville was on "A Current Affair" last night with the host of that show--I don''t recall his name--anyways, she is from New Orleans and was in a boat in Slidell, LA, reporting on the horrific conditions there. During the spot, there was some folks who, in desperation, asked for help, a lift in Arthel''s boat, to the area where there was dry land for a better chance of being rescued. Without hesistation, Arthel and this gentleman(the host) got these folks into their boat and got them to where they could. I was moved by that act of kindness, yes, but more with their willingness to just do it and not stop and think it through. Actions speak a hell of alot louder than any words!
Perry: You touched me so...thank you for mentioning the issue of the levees! Where in the hell was the government in reinforcing or replacing the levees years and years ago?! Now, as a result of the neglect, all of this. This was a situation that WAS going to happen...it WAS just a matter of time...I am sorry, but its just true. The people that stayed behind that COULD have got out and CHOSE NOT to...sealed their fate...I know that in their hearts they honestly felt they were safe, but it was not meant to be for them. For those who were not able to get out due to phsyical impairment, lack of the help of those who were stronger and more physcially able, etc., my heart BLEEDS for them. I actually have had a physical pain in my chest for them...
I pray for all affected. I pray for the police, the fireman, the red cross volunteers, the Good Samaritans who are risking it all for others, for all those who are helping in ANY capacity that puts them at risk, I pray for them all...
Yes, I could and will be writing alot of checks for this and have no problem with that, but there HAS to be more we can do. I don''t want the sentiments, the emotions that all of us have expressed to fade as time goes by and for us to become callous as a people--as so many have after 9/11 and after the Tsunami. This is REAL and is not going to be cleared up by the holidays. These people have NO WHERE to go home to. There are lives shattered--FOREVER. For ALL OF US, life is going to be different--not just for those in New Orleans or the Gulfport areas...
Yes, right now, you and I are worked up...gas and diesel is killing our pocketbooks and we are whining...but we are so blessed and we need to choke up on the whining and realize that--NOW. If we are going to move forward on this, we need to get real and BE REAL ourselves.
I know that my family plans to go through our stuff in the garage and in our closets to see what we can share with those needy folks. We have plenty and so do most of all of you. Writing a check is wonderful and will be well used. Now, let''s all check out what we all have and get it to the red cross for distribution. Call your local American Red Cross and ask them what they would most appreciate besides money--then give it.
The next time a major disaster hits, it could directly affect you and me...and our homes...our families...and our lives...we would want others to chip in and help us...
Sorry...I got on a roll and couldn''t stop myself...hope I did not offend anyone...I just cannot STAND it when people claim they want to help, say they are going to...and don''t. Please forgive me...this has been so heart wrenching.
Shay: You have mentioned so much that I can honestly say most of us on some level have felt. And I feel you are correct about so much of the points you made...I detest guns, but they have their place and unfortunately, they are needed.
Jennifer5973: You go girl! I echo your sentiments and out and out frustrations with celebrities! In the "rags", there is practically daily coverage and updates about Jessica Simpson''s shopping sprees...she is one that could seriously make a financial dent in donations with the $ she would normally(whatever is "normal" for her) spend. That would help most of us regular folk think that maybe she is authentic with her concern for these devastated people. She is just an example of over-pampered celebs...most--if not all who are making the serious $$$-- could do the same.
Widget: You had so many good points...the celebs need to get real and see it from our positions...get genuine or shut up! Morgan Freeman was in today''s news for putting together an auction of HIS personal stuff--memorabilia from past movies, passes to the screening for his new movie, "An Unfinished Life", as well as a getaway, etc., with ALL proceeds going to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. I felt this showed authentic concern since the news indicated HE organized it and HE is chiefly doing the donating in this particular effort. You give up some of YOU for the better good of someone else...
Kaleigh: I ditto your feelings...Let''s see some of our "pretty celebs" (Nick and Jessica--just as an example, not picking on them only) get real and get out there and get dirty, helping those who absolutely cannot help themselves. Athel Neville was on "A Current Affair" last night with the host of that show--I don''t recall his name--anyways, she is from New Orleans and was in a boat in Slidell, LA, reporting on the horrific conditions there. During the spot, there was some folks who, in desperation, asked for help, a lift in Arthel''s boat, to the area where there was dry land for a better chance of being rescued. Without hesistation, Arthel and this gentleman(the host) got these folks into their boat and got them to where they could. I was moved by that act of kindness, yes, but more with their willingness to just do it and not stop and think it through. Actions speak a hell of alot louder than any words!
Perry: You touched me so...thank you for mentioning the issue of the levees! Where in the hell was the government in reinforcing or replacing the levees years and years ago?! Now, as a result of the neglect, all of this. This was a situation that WAS going to happen...it WAS just a matter of time...I am sorry, but its just true. The people that stayed behind that COULD have got out and CHOSE NOT to...sealed their fate...I know that in their hearts they honestly felt they were safe, but it was not meant to be for them. For those who were not able to get out due to phsyical impairment, lack of the help of those who were stronger and more physcially able, etc., my heart BLEEDS for them. I actually have had a physical pain in my chest for them...
I pray for all affected. I pray for the police, the fireman, the red cross volunteers, the Good Samaritans who are risking it all for others, for all those who are helping in ANY capacity that puts them at risk, I pray for them all...
Yes, I could and will be writing alot of checks for this and have no problem with that, but there HAS to be more we can do. I don''t want the sentiments, the emotions that all of us have expressed to fade as time goes by and for us to become callous as a people--as so many have after 9/11 and after the Tsunami. This is REAL and is not going to be cleared up by the holidays. These people have NO WHERE to go home to. There are lives shattered--FOREVER. For ALL OF US, life is going to be different--not just for those in New Orleans or the Gulfport areas...
Yes, right now, you and I are worked up...gas and diesel is killing our pocketbooks and we are whining...but we are so blessed and we need to choke up on the whining and realize that--NOW. If we are going to move forward on this, we need to get real and BE REAL ourselves.
I know that my family plans to go through our stuff in the garage and in our closets to see what we can share with those needy folks. We have plenty and so do most of all of you. Writing a check is wonderful and will be well used. Now, let''s all check out what we all have and get it to the red cross for distribution. Call your local American Red Cross and ask them what they would most appreciate besides money--then give it.
The next time a major disaster hits, it could directly affect you and me...and our homes...our families...and our lives...we would want others to chip in and help us...
Sorry...I got on a roll and couldn''t stop myself...hope I did not offend anyone...I just cannot STAND it when people claim they want to help, say they are going to...and don''t. Please forgive me...this has been so heart wrenching.
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2004
- Messages
- 2,547
I''ve been doing a little digging for some information to put this whole thing into perspective:
Aproximately 1/2 of the state of Louisiana is considered a Severe Disaster area - with the entire rest of the state considered a general disaster area.
Aproximately 1/5 of Mississippi is considered a Severe Disaster area, and about 1/2 of the state a general disaster area.
Timeline: (help filling in the details appreciated)
Sat Aug 27 @ 10 at night Hurricane Warning given.
Mon Aug 29 (not sure of time) Katrina hits
Tue Aug 30 (not sure of time) New Orleans Levees break
Wed Aug 31 Late AM: Louisiana Governor ask for Federal Help & National Guard Help. US Military involvment approved.
Wed Aug 31, Early PM: Louisiana Govenor ask/orders busses to transport people from Superdome.
Thur Sept 1: Some busses arrive and start transporting people.
Fri Sept 2: National Guard and a lot more busses roll into New Orleans and start to make their presence felt. 1st US Navy ship in area, some Military Helocopters arrive to assist the National Guard
If you look at the timeline - that is not really that bad of a response. Biggest issue that I see (and only legitimate one that I see) is the lack of appropriate survey and comand/control structure up front. With the right structure in place - help could have been asked for 12 - 18 hours earlier than it was.
Other than that, it takes time to deploy troops. All those big trucks you see that can drive in 3 to 4 feet of water probably only have a top speed of 50 or 60 MPH (wars are not faught where there are interstate hiways). They have to be loaded with relief supplies and deployed to the area from whereever they are.
Please note that the US Military is specifically banned from becomming directly involved in "issues" within the US unless directly authorized by FEMA. The National Guard - which is actually under the control of the Governors - is the approved first respondors to non-military national crises. There are very ligitimate reasons why the US Military should not become involved within the US except for very rare, and duly authorized situations. I note that even the "nuclear bomb" reponse units are civialian and not millitary (the NEST teams, the people who are to resond to a threat of a terriorist nuclear device within the US, to locate it and hopefully disable it before it blows).
Perry
Aproximately 1/2 of the state of Louisiana is considered a Severe Disaster area - with the entire rest of the state considered a general disaster area.
Aproximately 1/5 of Mississippi is considered a Severe Disaster area, and about 1/2 of the state a general disaster area.
Timeline: (help filling in the details appreciated)
Sat Aug 27 @ 10 at night Hurricane Warning given.
Mon Aug 29 (not sure of time) Katrina hits
Tue Aug 30 (not sure of time) New Orleans Levees break
Wed Aug 31 Late AM: Louisiana Governor ask for Federal Help & National Guard Help. US Military involvment approved.
Wed Aug 31, Early PM: Louisiana Govenor ask/orders busses to transport people from Superdome.
Thur Sept 1: Some busses arrive and start transporting people.
Fri Sept 2: National Guard and a lot more busses roll into New Orleans and start to make their presence felt. 1st US Navy ship in area, some Military Helocopters arrive to assist the National Guard
If you look at the timeline - that is not really that bad of a response. Biggest issue that I see (and only legitimate one that I see) is the lack of appropriate survey and comand/control structure up front. With the right structure in place - help could have been asked for 12 - 18 hours earlier than it was.
Other than that, it takes time to deploy troops. All those big trucks you see that can drive in 3 to 4 feet of water probably only have a top speed of 50 or 60 MPH (wars are not faught where there are interstate hiways). They have to be loaded with relief supplies and deployed to the area from whereever they are.
Please note that the US Military is specifically banned from becomming directly involved in "issues" within the US unless directly authorized by FEMA. The National Guard - which is actually under the control of the Governors - is the approved first respondors to non-military national crises. There are very ligitimate reasons why the US Military should not become involved within the US except for very rare, and duly authorized situations. I note that even the "nuclear bomb" reponse units are civialian and not millitary (the NEST teams, the people who are to resond to a threat of a terriorist nuclear device within the US, to locate it and hopefully disable it before it blows).
Perry
aphisiglovessae
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2005
- Messages
- 1,140
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2004
- Messages
- 2,547
Here is some information on the relative cost of levees.
My brother is a civil engineer and helps design such things.
New Orlenes levee system was designed for a Catagory 3 Hurrican event.
Cost of levee systems are exponential.
A Catagory 4 Levee system would cost about 4 times as much to build as the existing Catatagory 3 system.
A Catagory 5 Levee sysem would cost about 4 times as much as a Catagory 4 system, or 16 times the cost of a catagory 3 system.
Catagory 4 system, and especially a catagory 5 sytem would take a lot more land inside the city. This directly conflicts with land for development and tax base.
Katrina was a catagory 5 event - but not a direct hit. Even if the Billions had been spent in recent years doing the desired repairs and upgrades - the levees would have failed anyway (the key failures were not at the places where upgrades and repairs were planned).
Also, New Orleans does not have much of an industrial base. It is largly a tourest town, with a shipping port. New Orleans & Louisiana industrial and property tax base has never supported the cost of construting even the existing levees.
Before anyone really says we should build a better system. You need to figure out how to pay for it and how it will affect the population and tax base of the city.
As stated above; I think the perferred solution is to ship in enough fill to fill up the bowl and build a "new" new orleans above sealevel - should New Orleans be rebuilt at all (an interesting question that has not yet been answered - and is not answerable at this time). That will probably be on par with the cost of a catagory 4 levee system - but the city will never flood like this again.
Perry
My brother is a civil engineer and helps design such things.
New Orlenes levee system was designed for a Catagory 3 Hurrican event.
Cost of levee systems are exponential.
A Catagory 4 Levee system would cost about 4 times as much to build as the existing Catatagory 3 system.
A Catagory 5 Levee sysem would cost about 4 times as much as a Catagory 4 system, or 16 times the cost of a catagory 3 system.
Catagory 4 system, and especially a catagory 5 sytem would take a lot more land inside the city. This directly conflicts with land for development and tax base.
Katrina was a catagory 5 event - but not a direct hit. Even if the Billions had been spent in recent years doing the desired repairs and upgrades - the levees would have failed anyway (the key failures were not at the places where upgrades and repairs were planned).
Also, New Orleans does not have much of an industrial base. It is largly a tourest town, with a shipping port. New Orleans & Louisiana industrial and property tax base has never supported the cost of construting even the existing levees.
Before anyone really says we should build a better system. You need to figure out how to pay for it and how it will affect the population and tax base of the city.
As stated above; I think the perferred solution is to ship in enough fill to fill up the bowl and build a "new" new orleans above sealevel - should New Orleans be rebuilt at all (an interesting question that has not yet been answered - and is not answerable at this time). That will probably be on par with the cost of a catagory 4 levee system - but the city will never flood like this again.
Perry
The levees broke on Tuesday creating a witches brew of sewage and horrific conditions. Sorry, Perry but I don''t think waiting another 3 days to send help is a good response! Where is this county''s disaster plan? What will we do in the event of a terrorist attack? Remember, this could happen to your city if a terrorist plans a major attack. Why is it ok to have ships already loaded to assist around the globe but no trucks loaded to help domestically? That is ridiculous. Of course this is an exceptional situation but all of these excuses don''t answer the question of where are our local and national plans? If trucks can''t get through, then why arn''t helicopters dropping off supplies like they did in Iraq after we bombed them. Babies shouldn''t be dying from dehydration. It''s a national disgrace.
Have all of our resources gone to bombing Iraq? I just saw a government head on TV saying that they only learned of the situation "factually" yesterday.Ted Koeppel almost ripped his head off.
Jennifer, I was just saying the same thing about the celebrities. I think Syrina Williams is using this as a publicity stunt. She''s giving $100 for every tennis ball she hits by the end of the year, or something like that. These people need money now not next year.
Have all of our resources gone to bombing Iraq? I just saw a government head on TV saying that they only learned of the situation "factually" yesterday.Ted Koeppel almost ripped his head off.
Jennifer, I was just saying the same thing about the celebrities. I think Syrina Williams is using this as a publicity stunt. She''s giving $100 for every tennis ball she hits by the end of the year, or something like that. These people need money now not next year.
The issue is, do you evacute everyone along the gulf coast? Since there was no way of knowing where exactly it was going in far enough out to evacuate, we can''t play Monday morning quarterback. I love the fact that everyone with the answers aren''t actually involved with the planning or implementation of anything. Let''s put the blame where it belongs. On the weather. This is no one''s fault. No one could prevent or predict what actually happened. The real issue is those that continue to move into and live in areas that are prone to hurricanes and are at or below sea level. There have been multiple warnings about New Orleans and other coastal communities, but people think it won''t happen to them and when it does they expect rescue.
Jennifer5973
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2003
- Messages
- 4,107
Neophyte Miner
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2005
- Messages
- 18
Jennifer,
Here''s another rescue link for animals in crisis situation that I had not heard of before, but apparently they do some real good work on a shoestring -
http://www.noahswish.org/index.htm
My heart is breaking for the elderly, the helpless and the animals. I am in Austin and we have volunteered as a resource for housing people or pets, we''re just waiting for a call. Our mayor is organizing a shelter for 5,000 in Austin, refugees expected tomorrow. There is good medical care on standby here in Central Texas, if only the refugees can get here. Another local Austin group is collecting donated bicycles to take to Houston for the massive amounts of people in shelters there who will need transportation to look for housing and jobs. Take care.
Cathy
Here''s another rescue link for animals in crisis situation that I had not heard of before, but apparently they do some real good work on a shoestring -
http://www.noahswish.org/index.htm
My heart is breaking for the elderly, the helpless and the animals. I am in Austin and we have volunteered as a resource for housing people or pets, we''re just waiting for a call. Our mayor is organizing a shelter for 5,000 in Austin, refugees expected tomorrow. There is good medical care on standby here in Central Texas, if only the refugees can get here. Another local Austin group is collecting donated bicycles to take to Houston for the massive amounts of people in shelters there who will need transportation to look for housing and jobs. Take care.
Cathy
saturn
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- May 31, 2005
- Messages
- 306
I just wanted to post a few thoughts about everything that I''ve read on this thread.
First, I am not one to jump to the defense of wealthy celebrities, but I think we may need to cut them a little bit of slack. Just because you don''t hear about it on the news does not mean that celebrities aren''t donating to the relief effort. Some just may not choose to make their donation public. I can respect that decision - to me, celebrities announcing that they will donate $XXXX sometimes comes off as kind of narcissistic and self-congratulatory.
Much classier just to give, and not make a big deal about it.
Secondly, while I understand that it will take a truly monumental effort to rescue all the victims and restore New Orleans to some semblance of order, I still feel that the government''s work thus far had been unacceptable. Where is the can-do spirit that makes our country so great? Instead, all I hear from the leaders is excuse after excuse. The other day, I heard the director of FEMA explain to a reporter that the relief effort in NO was moving slowly because they were having difficulty communicating, since all the cell phone towers were out......So the Federal EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT Agency has no back-up plan for communications if their cell phones don''t work?!?!?
So yes please, lets all follow through on our promises to donate to the relief effort. And after this isn''t such an urgent situation, lets make sure we hold our leaders (from both parties) accountable for what happened in the aftermath of this horrible disaster.
First, I am not one to jump to the defense of wealthy celebrities, but I think we may need to cut them a little bit of slack. Just because you don''t hear about it on the news does not mean that celebrities aren''t donating to the relief effort. Some just may not choose to make their donation public. I can respect that decision - to me, celebrities announcing that they will donate $XXXX sometimes comes off as kind of narcissistic and self-congratulatory.
Much classier just to give, and not make a big deal about it.
Secondly, while I understand that it will take a truly monumental effort to rescue all the victims and restore New Orleans to some semblance of order, I still feel that the government''s work thus far had been unacceptable. Where is the can-do spirit that makes our country so great? Instead, all I hear from the leaders is excuse after excuse. The other day, I heard the director of FEMA explain to a reporter that the relief effort in NO was moving slowly because they were having difficulty communicating, since all the cell phone towers were out......So the Federal EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT Agency has no back-up plan for communications if their cell phones don''t work?!?!?
So yes please, lets all follow through on our promises to donate to the relief effort. And after this isn''t such an urgent situation, lets make sure we hold our leaders (from both parties) accountable for what happened in the aftermath of this horrible disaster.
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2004
- Messages
- 2,547
Saturn:
Secondly, while I understand that it will take a truly monumental effort to rescue all the victims and restore New Orleans to some semblance of order, I still feel that the government''s work thus far had been unacceptable. Where is the can-do spirit that makes our country so great? Instead, all I hear from the leaders is excuse after excuse. The other day, I heard the director of FEMA explain to a reporter that the relief effort in NO was moving slowly because they were having difficulty communicating, since all the cell phone towers were out......So the Federal EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT Agency has no back-up plan for communications if their cell phones don''t work?!?!?
The countries disaster plans are based largly on three things:
1) State and regional planning and communications systems (the emergency broadcast system is a state based system). Specific local plans for specific unique local conditions.
2) Combination of Private charities and federal support agencies. Red Cross, Salvation Army, and disaster relief agencies. This group repsonds to disasters all over the US almost all the time. In the case of Katrina they had prestaged 5000 people and hundreds of trucks of supplies within 1 day of the expected damage zone - which was unprecidented. There had only ever been one other prestaging, and it was on the order of 500 people a a few trucks of supplies.
Unfortunately, Katrina was much worse than anticipated and totally overwhelmed these organizations up front.
3) National Guard support (requested by a governor of the state).
4) Coast guard help in costal areas.
FEMA was a jonney come lately to this basic organization, but depends in large part on the the state and regional planning and communications - and private charities to tell them what is needed. National Guard, and even FEMA authorized Millitary support cannot happen without the request of the state governor (just be glad that FEMA has the authority to authorize direct millitary support - otherwise there would have been more delays in getting it).
The biggest issue here that I see is that no one from the local or state level had a good handle on what was happening in New Orleans. Why did the Mayor not know that there were 20,000 people also in the convention center? All the other organizations above depend on the local disaster office to be able to communicate their status and needs (and not just "we''re in trouble come and help").
Why was the state of Louisiana not ready for a general loss of communications; and did not have their own set of survey and communications systems set up to be able to tell them what was going on after a hurricane decimated their state (sounds like a perfect function of the Louisiana National Guard to me)
Why was it that the news organizations had the best read on what was going on - and the local officials did not ask them to help in communicating what they knew to some local command center (the news organizations have been more than willing to help like this in other disasters - if they were asked and provided a good contact).
There are tons of rumors in disasters and wars. National level orgainizations and the military ignore most rumors until they get confirmatory evidence (experience has taught that chasing rumors usually waste resources for where the real problems are).
The National Guard and Military can move in and set up alternate communication systems (and command and control systems). Afterall, they never plan on having any intact local communications systems. There are also enough resources within the US to do that. But they have to be asked to help, and it still takes time to deploy to an area such support units (yes - fully armed and ready to fight fighter jets can be deployed in minutes to hours - but fighter jets do not do much good). Following the Louisiana''s Governors request for National Guard help Wednesday, activation of National Guard units occured nationwide. Locally to me, 2 units were activated. These people spent Thursday and Friday Morning packing and perparing and left Friday afternoon for Louisiana with a convoy of trucks and supplies. It will take them 2 days to get there. The trucks are not preloaded with any supplies because you don''t know exactly what supplies will have to be taken on any deployment. In this case, half the trucks are full of the supplies that they themselves will need for 2 weeks.
I do note that last night that the press reported that the New Orleans airport had transformed itself on Friday as the National Guard took over. It was clearly now under control and organized. Orgainzation was appearing for the first time in the city as well, but was limited by the number of National Guard who were there at the moment. There will be a lot more on Saturday, and a huge wave by Sunday. The Navy/Marine Core was providing arial survey and command contol by Friday afternoon as well from a ship offshore. Keep in mind, outside National Guard & Military help was not requested untill Wednesday just before noon. Fact is, we don''t respond any faster overseas.
In the 60''s every major city, county/parish (or whatever the names) in the US had to establish a nuclear war emergency comand and control center (funded by the US Government). These were largly abondoned in the 80''s because no one saw a nuclear war (and some felt that afterall we could never survive such a war anyway).
Why these were not retained as disaster command and control centers I will never know (actually I do, they cost money to maintain and keep alternate power and communication systems in). I actually lived on a farm for a while where the county just gave the 60''s nuclear command and control center to the farm. A nice, as things go, underground bunker complete with its own well and emergency power system (except the county took the generators with them). Lots of antennas as well. We often talked of fixing it up - and I am sure that someone has done so by now.
Now most of the couties in the country can probably claim that they will never need such a dissaster command and control facility - and they are probably right. But major cities, hurricane, known earthquake zones, major chemical plants/refineries, and nuclear facilities cannot say so.
Except that I find the nuclear facilites to be an interesting exception and lesson here. Nuclear facilities are required to have such centers in order to be operating (in addition to a fully staffed control room and operations staff). Not just one either - but both a primary and a backup center, that are to be staffed within very tight timetables (30 - 60 minutes depending on position). In addition to the initial emergency response team - they are to have enough people to staff them 24 hours arround the clock indefinetly. Not only that, they have to prove over and over and over again during the year that they can staff these centers and execute a drill scenerio which includes communication with the county, state, and NRC on plant status and needs. Independent power and communication systems exist and these centers (and the plants themselves) must be able to operate during and after a whole series of "design basis accidents" that includes: loss of offsite power, tornado or hurricane depending on plant location, earthquake (at twice the largest earthquake predicted for the area based on rictor scale), and recently added - terrorist event. This cost a lot of money - but is considered part of the cost of operating the plant.
Even though the area arround the Waterford Nuclear plant (a bit west of New Orleans) was decimated; I''ll bet anyone they could have staffed their emergency response centers afterwards (but it was not needed, the plant is safely shut down and core and spent fuel cooling operational).
To me the real question is: Where was the New Orleans Hurricane disaster center, and plans? Should not it be the cost of operating that city....
How effective was the State of Lousiana''s emergency response center and communications plan for a post hurricane event. Should not that be part of the operating cost for a state in the hurricane area....
How is the National Guard or Military - or anyone else in the Nation to really know they are to provide help unless the local goverment has the ability to ask for the kind of help they need. I have nothing but the highest respect for the people in the national guard who respond to such events. They get their as fast as they can. You can''t ask for more from them. Many of them take a pay cut when they are deployed, and they leave their families behind as well. Once in a while they even resond in state - which is a lot faster response.
Perry
Secondly, while I understand that it will take a truly monumental effort to rescue all the victims and restore New Orleans to some semblance of order, I still feel that the government''s work thus far had been unacceptable. Where is the can-do spirit that makes our country so great? Instead, all I hear from the leaders is excuse after excuse. The other day, I heard the director of FEMA explain to a reporter that the relief effort in NO was moving slowly because they were having difficulty communicating, since all the cell phone towers were out......So the Federal EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT Agency has no back-up plan for communications if their cell phones don''t work?!?!?
The countries disaster plans are based largly on three things:
1) State and regional planning and communications systems (the emergency broadcast system is a state based system). Specific local plans for specific unique local conditions.
2) Combination of Private charities and federal support agencies. Red Cross, Salvation Army, and disaster relief agencies. This group repsonds to disasters all over the US almost all the time. In the case of Katrina they had prestaged 5000 people and hundreds of trucks of supplies within 1 day of the expected damage zone - which was unprecidented. There had only ever been one other prestaging, and it was on the order of 500 people a a few trucks of supplies.
Unfortunately, Katrina was much worse than anticipated and totally overwhelmed these organizations up front.
3) National Guard support (requested by a governor of the state).
4) Coast guard help in costal areas.
FEMA was a jonney come lately to this basic organization, but depends in large part on the the state and regional planning and communications - and private charities to tell them what is needed. National Guard, and even FEMA authorized Millitary support cannot happen without the request of the state governor (just be glad that FEMA has the authority to authorize direct millitary support - otherwise there would have been more delays in getting it).
The biggest issue here that I see is that no one from the local or state level had a good handle on what was happening in New Orleans. Why did the Mayor not know that there were 20,000 people also in the convention center? All the other organizations above depend on the local disaster office to be able to communicate their status and needs (and not just "we''re in trouble come and help").
Why was the state of Louisiana not ready for a general loss of communications; and did not have their own set of survey and communications systems set up to be able to tell them what was going on after a hurricane decimated their state (sounds like a perfect function of the Louisiana National Guard to me)
Why was it that the news organizations had the best read on what was going on - and the local officials did not ask them to help in communicating what they knew to some local command center (the news organizations have been more than willing to help like this in other disasters - if they were asked and provided a good contact).
There are tons of rumors in disasters and wars. National level orgainizations and the military ignore most rumors until they get confirmatory evidence (experience has taught that chasing rumors usually waste resources for where the real problems are).
The National Guard and Military can move in and set up alternate communication systems (and command and control systems). Afterall, they never plan on having any intact local communications systems. There are also enough resources within the US to do that. But they have to be asked to help, and it still takes time to deploy to an area such support units (yes - fully armed and ready to fight fighter jets can be deployed in minutes to hours - but fighter jets do not do much good). Following the Louisiana''s Governors request for National Guard help Wednesday, activation of National Guard units occured nationwide. Locally to me, 2 units were activated. These people spent Thursday and Friday Morning packing and perparing and left Friday afternoon for Louisiana with a convoy of trucks and supplies. It will take them 2 days to get there. The trucks are not preloaded with any supplies because you don''t know exactly what supplies will have to be taken on any deployment. In this case, half the trucks are full of the supplies that they themselves will need for 2 weeks.
I do note that last night that the press reported that the New Orleans airport had transformed itself on Friday as the National Guard took over. It was clearly now under control and organized. Orgainzation was appearing for the first time in the city as well, but was limited by the number of National Guard who were there at the moment. There will be a lot more on Saturday, and a huge wave by Sunday. The Navy/Marine Core was providing arial survey and command contol by Friday afternoon as well from a ship offshore. Keep in mind, outside National Guard & Military help was not requested untill Wednesday just before noon. Fact is, we don''t respond any faster overseas.
In the 60''s every major city, county/parish (or whatever the names) in the US had to establish a nuclear war emergency comand and control center (funded by the US Government). These were largly abondoned in the 80''s because no one saw a nuclear war (and some felt that afterall we could never survive such a war anyway).
Why these were not retained as disaster command and control centers I will never know (actually I do, they cost money to maintain and keep alternate power and communication systems in). I actually lived on a farm for a while where the county just gave the 60''s nuclear command and control center to the farm. A nice, as things go, underground bunker complete with its own well and emergency power system (except the county took the generators with them). Lots of antennas as well. We often talked of fixing it up - and I am sure that someone has done so by now.
Now most of the couties in the country can probably claim that they will never need such a dissaster command and control facility - and they are probably right. But major cities, hurricane, known earthquake zones, major chemical plants/refineries, and nuclear facilities cannot say so.
Except that I find the nuclear facilites to be an interesting exception and lesson here. Nuclear facilities are required to have such centers in order to be operating (in addition to a fully staffed control room and operations staff). Not just one either - but both a primary and a backup center, that are to be staffed within very tight timetables (30 - 60 minutes depending on position). In addition to the initial emergency response team - they are to have enough people to staff them 24 hours arround the clock indefinetly. Not only that, they have to prove over and over and over again during the year that they can staff these centers and execute a drill scenerio which includes communication with the county, state, and NRC on plant status and needs. Independent power and communication systems exist and these centers (and the plants themselves) must be able to operate during and after a whole series of "design basis accidents" that includes: loss of offsite power, tornado or hurricane depending on plant location, earthquake (at twice the largest earthquake predicted for the area based on rictor scale), and recently added - terrorist event. This cost a lot of money - but is considered part of the cost of operating the plant.
Even though the area arround the Waterford Nuclear plant (a bit west of New Orleans) was decimated; I''ll bet anyone they could have staffed their emergency response centers afterwards (but it was not needed, the plant is safely shut down and core and spent fuel cooling operational).
To me the real question is: Where was the New Orleans Hurricane disaster center, and plans? Should not it be the cost of operating that city....
How effective was the State of Lousiana''s emergency response center and communications plan for a post hurricane event. Should not that be part of the operating cost for a state in the hurricane area....
How is the National Guard or Military - or anyone else in the Nation to really know they are to provide help unless the local goverment has the ability to ask for the kind of help they need. I have nothing but the highest respect for the people in the national guard who respond to such events. They get their as fast as they can. You can''t ask for more from them. Many of them take a pay cut when they are deployed, and they leave their families behind as well. Once in a while they even resond in state - which is a lot faster response.
Perry
Jennifer5973
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2003
- Messages
- 4,107
thebanjodog
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2005
- Messages
- 123
there is enough blame to go around. i hope everyone can learn from their mistakes instead of taking the other side to task. an urealistic wish but none the less the best scenario. banjo
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2003
- Messages
- 22,161
First, I must address fire&ice who wrote, "I find the most generous people with their time and money DO - and do so with little fan fare. Others talk or bitch." Let me say at once that I donated money locally to firefighters collecting in the streets here in Connecticut using their rubber boots to hold dollar bills given to them, and to the Red Cross before saying a word of criticism here.
Second, if this isn't the time to blame, when is? After it happens again? "Blame" in the form of constructive criticism helps people learn after a disaster so that they may avoid another one!
Third, the victims were not to blame. Maybe a few people stayed to "ride it out", as their forefathers did, in the old American tradition of, "This is my home and I will protect it". Most people who could, fled.
Fourth, there was plenty of awareness about the deficiencies in the system for water management in New Orleans and Louisiana legislators have been descrying it for years.
Fifth, after a disaster in 1953, after thousands lost their lives in the Netherlands, the Netherlands invested big money into rebuilding their system. This took money, taxes, and sacrifice on the part of the Dutch people, but that small country with their meagre resources did it.
Deborah
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2003
- Messages
- 22,161
Please read this letter to the editor written by Henk Kuiken of the Netherlands.
Letter from Henk Kuiken of the Netherlands
Deborah
thebanjodog
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2005
- Messages
- 123
after the problems of affected people are seen to i hope you jump right in there and get the water problems in communities all over the united states fixed. that is not a snide remark but a real one. i live in a community that is bordered by two major rivers. there are situations all over the country that need work and only a limited amount of resources. no one is perfect and we learn by mistake (unfortunately). i do appreciate your concern keep it up after this mess is straightened out. banjo
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2003
- Messages
- 22,161
Date: 9/3/2005 1:31:44 PM
Author: thebanjodog
deborah. i think if you were the president, the governor, the mayor, a resident or anyone else who happens to be in the affected area you wouldn''t appreciate it if you had some monday morning quarterback heaping the blame on you while you were just trying to get thru the chaos that exsists right now.
after the problems of affected people are seen to i hope you jump right in there and get the water problems in communities all over the united states fixed. that is not a snide remark but a real one. i live in a community that is bordered by two major rivers. there are situations all over the country that need work and only a limited amount of resources. no one is perfect and we learn by mistake (unfortunately). i do appreciate your concern keep it up after this mess is straightened out. banjo
I actually feel incredible sympathy for the mayor and the governor (who looks on the verge of collapse). I am a social worker. You don''t want me to plan flood control. That doesn''t mean my comments were incorrect. You didn''t take on the substance of them, just took me to task for failing the humility test.
Deborah
I sincerely hope that all of us contributing here to this forum will remember to be conscientous of one another''s viewpoints...Some of the responses seem to be leaning towards judging others for their views, rather than just allowing everyone to express their overall frustration--with complete and total facts or not. I know we are all extremely sympathetic, irritated how things have played out in the affected areas, and just plain angry that this happened. I know I am.
I pray that some constructive planning will take place to implement a better system as the reconstruction gets underway to make attempts to prevent this from happening again. The huge human loss cannot even be totalled for weeks. The actual land destruction? Who knows? But--as already stated--the help IS coming in and all one can do is move forward from where things currently are and stay DOING. I know I will. My children''s school already has made a healthy contribution to the Amer. Red Cross and they are NOT done yet in helping. Nor am I. Nor should any of us be.
Let''s try to keep the focus on those who need it---and not who here said what. As already stated, there is ALWAYS tons of misleading and misstated rumors of what is happening. Patience and generosity is what wins here...for all of us. This is a public forum that permits us to state our views--whether anyone agrees OR NOT...and that''s just plain ok. We are all outsiders to what is really happening, so we need to be mindful and careful of our "facts".
Personally, I have felt it wonderful to have this forum to read everyone''s responses to such a horrific situation and I see us all as being extremely caring and highly pro-active. Alot of good will come out of this, but alot of pain and anguish is also part of the equation sadly enough as well. I do believe that God has a hand in working this out and--to me--that is what will get us all through this...rising gas prices, death, devastation, frustration...and all.
I hope no one who reads this is offended, but if you are, please know that what I said I said out of concern...not for any other reason...hope you will consider that.
I pray that some constructive planning will take place to implement a better system as the reconstruction gets underway to make attempts to prevent this from happening again. The huge human loss cannot even be totalled for weeks. The actual land destruction? Who knows? But--as already stated--the help IS coming in and all one can do is move forward from where things currently are and stay DOING. I know I will. My children''s school already has made a healthy contribution to the Amer. Red Cross and they are NOT done yet in helping. Nor am I. Nor should any of us be.
Let''s try to keep the focus on those who need it---and not who here said what. As already stated, there is ALWAYS tons of misleading and misstated rumors of what is happening. Patience and generosity is what wins here...for all of us. This is a public forum that permits us to state our views--whether anyone agrees OR NOT...and that''s just plain ok. We are all outsiders to what is really happening, so we need to be mindful and careful of our "facts".
Personally, I have felt it wonderful to have this forum to read everyone''s responses to such a horrific situation and I see us all as being extremely caring and highly pro-active. Alot of good will come out of this, but alot of pain and anguish is also part of the equation sadly enough as well. I do believe that God has a hand in working this out and--to me--that is what will get us all through this...rising gas prices, death, devastation, frustration...and all.
I hope no one who reads this is offended, but if you are, please know that what I said I said out of concern...not for any other reason...hope you will consider that.
jcrow
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2005
- Messages
- 7,395
Finally i am able to get online, and i am happy to have found this discussion of Katrina. Although i admit i haven''t read all questions, thoughts and responses on this thread, i would hope that all affected by this devasating storm are in your thoughts and prayers. I live 2 hours away from new orleans and things are such a mess...
Shay37
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2004
- Messages
- 3,343
jcrow, prayers and tears. The anger I expressed earlier in this discussion was and is due to the enormous anger and helplessness I feel. I can''t stand to watch people suffer and be able to do nothing to stop it right now today!!! I know that donated money takes time to have a large effect. I ache inside for these people all up and down the gulf coast. I am so proud of my home state of Texas for just stepping up in such a big way. They should, they''re a big state. Other states can and will do what they are able to do, but I''m not from there, so I hope a little pride in Texas is not seen as misplaced.
As far as blame, the reason I started this thread was to really talk about the things about this whole situation that were intolerable to me. Holding that much anger inside can be detrimental to your health, so I wanted people to feel free to vent about those things that angered them. We should be able to say such things. We''re among friends here.
Perry, good point about the army needing a governor to ask for help before they can be brought in. I personally wouldn''t want to live in a country where the leader of the armed forces (Commander in Chief George W) could just send troops in. This is a protection for us citizens. Before anyone says that this should have been an exception, I don''t want the leader being able to decide the exceptions thank you very much. Those protections keep us from a military tyranny.
I think that there are plenty of ways our response time could have been sped up. The bottom line for me is that the communications just were not up to the task. That is at heart where a lot of problems lay. No leader with authority in the actual area to tell them to get their butts in there posthaste. That''s hard to do from long distance if the cell phones and radios you''re using don''t work. Because our armed forces have a chain-of-command structure, they have to wait for orders. Perhaps if there is a next time, we will all have learned something valuable from this.
Shay
As far as blame, the reason I started this thread was to really talk about the things about this whole situation that were intolerable to me. Holding that much anger inside can be detrimental to your health, so I wanted people to feel free to vent about those things that angered them. We should be able to say such things. We''re among friends here.
Perry, good point about the army needing a governor to ask for help before they can be brought in. I personally wouldn''t want to live in a country where the leader of the armed forces (Commander in Chief George W) could just send troops in. This is a protection for us citizens. Before anyone says that this should have been an exception, I don''t want the leader being able to decide the exceptions thank you very much. Those protections keep us from a military tyranny.
I think that there are plenty of ways our response time could have been sped up. The bottom line for me is that the communications just were not up to the task. That is at heart where a lot of problems lay. No leader with authority in the actual area to tell them to get their butts in there posthaste. That''s hard to do from long distance if the cell phones and radios you''re using don''t work. Because our armed forces have a chain-of-command structure, they have to wait for orders. Perhaps if there is a next time, we will all have learned something valuable from this.
Shay
phoenixgirl
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2003
- Messages
- 3,390
I too want to express my concern and compassion for those affected, and to say that anything I say critically is just me trying to figure out how this disaster could have been averted. I too gave to the Red Cross.
To me, the question is why did we build a city in a marshland below sea level? I can understand why the Dutch are so desperate to fight nature -- a lot of their relatively small country is threatened. If people choose to live in an area that will inevitably be greatly damaged, maybe entirely destroyed, by an earthquake (much of California) or a hurricane (New Orleans) or a volcanic eruption (Mt. Vesuvius), how much time, effort, and money should be spent trying to avert nature''s fury? We weigh our values and desires versus how much it will cost to accomplish them. We don''t make the speed limit 30mph on the high way even though that would save a lot of lives. No system of levees or evacuation plan is going to be perfect (yes, it could be improved, but hindsight is 20/20), but I don''t think that''s where the blame lies. The blame lies with everyone who made the choice to build the city there, with everyone who thought that it was possible to tame nature. We value our Mardis Gras city that is full of history and culture and industry more than we value making sure every single person in it is safe. Otherwise we would abandon it.
I believe that a large majority of those stayed had the means to get out of town. It may not have been an easy or pleasant means, but really only the infirm couldn''t have gotten out somehow. I found this description of transportation around New Orleans. It costs $1.50 to take a bus to the airport. I''m not saying these people would have had money to fly out, but most websites are down or not listing anything for New Orleans, so I can''t get prices from there to another city. Since the airport is being used as a triage I assume it is on high ground and would have been a safe place to go to. Yes, these people were poor, but they could have come up with a few dollars. If not, they could have spent Sunday walking to higher ground. Of course, they didn''t realize it would be so bad and the water would stand there becoming full of human waste and dead bodies. But the point is, only the physically immobile really had no choice. They just wagered that it was better to stay put and hope for the best than to become a voluntary refugee before the disaster.
I''m not saying that I advocate removing populations from all areas prone to flooding, tornados, earthquakes, etc. I''m just saying that loss of life is inevitable from natural disasters in these areas. As is so typically American, we want to have our cake and eat it too, and apparently it''s the government''s fault if we can''t.
To me, the question is why did we build a city in a marshland below sea level? I can understand why the Dutch are so desperate to fight nature -- a lot of their relatively small country is threatened. If people choose to live in an area that will inevitably be greatly damaged, maybe entirely destroyed, by an earthquake (much of California) or a hurricane (New Orleans) or a volcanic eruption (Mt. Vesuvius), how much time, effort, and money should be spent trying to avert nature''s fury? We weigh our values and desires versus how much it will cost to accomplish them. We don''t make the speed limit 30mph on the high way even though that would save a lot of lives. No system of levees or evacuation plan is going to be perfect (yes, it could be improved, but hindsight is 20/20), but I don''t think that''s where the blame lies. The blame lies with everyone who made the choice to build the city there, with everyone who thought that it was possible to tame nature. We value our Mardis Gras city that is full of history and culture and industry more than we value making sure every single person in it is safe. Otherwise we would abandon it.
I believe that a large majority of those stayed had the means to get out of town. It may not have been an easy or pleasant means, but really only the infirm couldn''t have gotten out somehow. I found this description of transportation around New Orleans. It costs $1.50 to take a bus to the airport. I''m not saying these people would have had money to fly out, but most websites are down or not listing anything for New Orleans, so I can''t get prices from there to another city. Since the airport is being used as a triage I assume it is on high ground and would have been a safe place to go to. Yes, these people were poor, but they could have come up with a few dollars. If not, they could have spent Sunday walking to higher ground. Of course, they didn''t realize it would be so bad and the water would stand there becoming full of human waste and dead bodies. But the point is, only the physically immobile really had no choice. They just wagered that it was better to stay put and hope for the best than to become a voluntary refugee before the disaster.
I''m not saying that I advocate removing populations from all areas prone to flooding, tornados, earthquakes, etc. I''m just saying that loss of life is inevitable from natural disasters in these areas. As is so typically American, we want to have our cake and eat it too, and apparently it''s the government''s fault if we can''t.
icekid
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2004
- Messages
- 7,476
very well said, phoenixgirl!
I also feel horrible about what people are going through in the southern states right now. I know it''s completely devastating, and the suffering is great. I wish there was more that I could do for them.
However, we cannot control the weather. I find it ridiculous that people continue to complain and complain. We should be banding together to help out our fellow Americans when they truly have need. Do I think that the rescue efforts probably could have been handled more efficiently? Very likely! But I also think everyone is doing the best that they can under the circumstances. What reason is there not to send aid immediately? Honestly? Do people think Bush is THAT stupid? Well, maybe- but his advisors are certainly smarter than that.
How much money should we spend to protect places that are so vulnerable to these natural disasters? If NOLA is rebuilt, this will happen again. It''s inevitable. They complain about the lack of federal funding for said protection. But I really feel that this is something that ought to be dealt with locally. Most of the country does not live in New Orleans, so most of the country should not have be paying to build levees. Or perhaps we should devote all of our tax money to controlling the weather, rather than feeding those who don''t have food
Continued thoughts and prayers to all who have been affected, including one of my best friends who lives in Alabama.
- Status
Past, Present, Future: The Meaning of Three-Stone Engagement Rings
Past, Present, Future: The Meaning of Three-Stone Engagement Rings - 04/14
300x240.png)