IYO...what is sexual harassment?

[Dancing Fire]

how can men compliment women w/o them yelling SH?... just thinking about the Herman Cain situation.

 

[Trekkie]

IMHO, it is sexual harassment when it is

Unwanted. When someone says no, but the other person insists on repeatedly propositioning, despite the answer still being no.

Or

Obviously inappropriate i.e. when there's physical or electronic contact of an intimate nature. You know, like touching someone's bum or sending them pictures of areas of your body (or someone else's) that are usually covered. Or of sex acts...

Of course, other people may feel differently.

 

[Jennifer W]

how can men compliment women w/o them yelling SH?... just thinking about the Herman Cain situation.

If they are close friends or members of your family.

Otherwise, I wouldn't bother. I mean, the men I interact with who are not close friends or members of my family don't really need to be commenting on my appearance, how ever positive these comments might be. Old school gentlemanly compliments were ideal when women weren't part of the workforce, and had a more subservient role in society more generally. Unless it's a friend or relative or a social setting where it's ok (such as telling a bride she looks beautiful for example) compliments on appearance and other personal characteristics have no place (unless you'd also tell your male colleague his new haircut is pretty, he has a nice voice and you like his aftershave, in which case go for it).

That said, generally, I think that compliments, unless they are incessant and sleazy or obviously poorly received aren'tsexual harassment by themselves. I think Trekkie's description was pretty good. I think that compliments can reveal something of the speaker's mindset, though and can be used subtly to put people in their place. For example, when I was seconded to our local Equality Council, one of the training examples we used (based on people's real experiences) went like this...

Straight white male employee introduces a new Director to his management staff:
"Here's Bob, he runs our excellent sales team." [it's all good - Bob is a straight white man, we can focus without distraction on what a great job he does.]

"Here's Dave, he is our very competent finance manager" [Same as Bob. Compliment him on the job he does, all else is normal.]

"This is Andy, he runs communications and events planning - he's great at events, in fact he's having a civil partnership ceremony next weekend, we're all very excited." [Andy is gay, that's all you need to know about him. I'm not really complimenting him on the job he does here, just using it to bring his sexuality to your attention.]

"This Indian lady, looking so pretty in her sari is in charge of the HR team." [You can overlook her. She's female and from an ethnic minority. Not even worth telling you her name...]

See? Compliments might not be overt harassment or discrimination, but they can be used to belittle people, especially in the workplace. I'd save them for value neutral situations (you did a great job) or for friends and family if you want to comment on appearance or personal matters.

Well, you did ask.

 

[Missy]

I agree with what Jennifer and Trekkie have written. For me it's simple. Don't comment on my appearance or anything physical/personal while I am at my workplace and you are my colleague. The only comments I appreciate are those in a social situation and then only when it is coming from a friend or my dh (who is welcome to compliment me any time of day or place).

The thing is, you usually know sexual harassment when you are on the receiving end. If someone's comments/attitudes/body language make you feel uncomfortable that is a problem.

 

[JewelFreak]

There's a difference between sexual harrassment and tactlessness or stupidity. Comments about someone's personal life are never appropriate at work imo. Especially in front of a group, like those cited by JW. Unless they bear on the person's contribution to the business -- such as, "Indira comes to us from Mumbai & brings wide experience in our markets in India." What she's wearing is way irrelevant. Unless it has to do w/the specific business: "Her beautiful yellow sari is an example of the weaves we will be importing." Any remark pointing out how someone is personally different from the group is objectionable because it makes him or her uncomfortable & can be seen as belittling. Common sense.

Sexual harrassment is a little tougher. Needless to say, touching in inappropriate places deserves a punch in the kisser. Other kinds of touching can or can not be a problem. For me, what a man would do to another man is acceptable from a man to a woman (or vice versa): "great job on that presentation!" and pat on the shoulder. If it doesn't go on too long -- a co-worker of mine used to stand by my desk & ask a question. All the time I answered him he rubbed my shoulder (& stood a tad too close to me). Not worth reporting when you can usually solve it by shrugging him off & saying, "Hey, Steve, quit." (You creep.) Talking about sex qualifies -- either telling your own stories or asking sexual-type questions is plain i.c.k.y. & should get someone in trouble, imo.

Herman Cain's remark doesn't even register. Could be belittling & therefore tactless but I don't think it was meant that way. "You're no taller than my wife" hardly comes across as a proposition. More a fatherly remark, in context probably kind of cute. It was not said in front of a group, was a throwaway cheerful comment. BFD, would be my reaction. The woman who complained about that had filed charges in an earlier job -- sometimes it's a way to get attention, or a (subconscious?) excuse for not succeeding at a job.

A sense of humor & of proportion helps. Some things are only worth a good laugh; others deserve more attention -- but without a chip on the shoulder.

 

[Upgradable]

I think a definition is essential in definition:
ha·rass    1.to disturb persistently; torment, as with troubles or cares; bother continually; pester; persecute.

The crux of "sexual harassment" is a continued pattern of behavior. I think we can all describe situations that may be of unwanted sexual, or personally inappropriate behavior, but to be identified as construed as "sexual harassment," there must be a pattern of this unwanted behavior.

I personally believe that most unwanted suggestive or inappropriate behavior can be stopped by the receiving participant pointing out that he/she is uncomfortable with the action or words and ask that it not happen again. We are all adults and should be able to act as such and attempt to resolve our own problems first, before becoming litigious.

 

[JewelFreak]

I personally believe that most unwanted suggestive or inappropriate behavior can be stopped by the receiving participant pointing out that he/she is uncomfortable with the action or words and ask that it not happen again. We are all adults and should be able to act as such and attempt to resolve our own problems first, before becoming litigious.

+1, Uppy.

 

[Circe]

Pushing anybody's head towards your crotch would be a pretty glaring example.

 

[Upgradable]

Pushing anybody's head towards your crotch would be a pretty glaring example.

But the definition of this would be sexual battery.

 

[Circe]

Pushing anybody's head towards your crotch would be a pretty glaring example.

But the definition of this would be sexual battery.

Frighteningly, that depends on the state.

But I do think that DF's opening question about how men can "compliment" women in conjunction with the Cain situation presents a bit of a ... contrast ... in terms of attitude.

Very few women are offended by genuine, appropriate compliments. The myth that saying a coworker looks smashing in yellow will somehow get one fired, though? Great way to undermine and destabilize any woman (or, for that matter, man) who has a legitimate complaint.

 

[swingirl]

how can men compliment women w/o them yelling SH?... just thinking about the Herman Cain situation.

Do men compliment each other's appearance in the workplace? Rarely. At work one's appearance shouldn't be discussed, period.

 

[Upgradable]

But men and women are NOT the same! I would appreciate a genuine compliment from either a man or woman within the workplace.

Searching my own level of comfort, I guess the only compliment that may make me uncomfortable is one from a manager, supervisor, or senior managements. Dunno why though.

 

[QueenB29]

I don't mind a generic "nice shoes" or something like that, but funny enough, an older man I work with (not directly) just came up to me this morning and touched my jacket without a by-your-leave and said "I do like the fabrics you wear." I didn't say anything at the time because I was a little shocked and I don't like confrontation I also honestly don't think he meant anything by it, and as long as it doesn't happen again....I don't know if it's worth saying/doing anything, but the more I think about it, the more I'm

The sad fact of the matter is that it would probably end up making life far more difficult for ME if I did say something, either to him or to HR. No doubt I would be seen as a prickly bitch who can't take a compliment and I love my job. I don't want to be that person who files frivolous complaints that no one takes seriously. Besides, to me, there is a difference between something like that and, say, a proposition or sexual threat, which I have never experienced and would NEVER put up with.

What are your thoughts? What would you do?

ETA: The only part that really bothers me is that he touched my jacket and my shoulder, than ran the fabric (it's kind of a tweedy boucle) through his fingers. Ick. I'm very much a stay-out-of-my-personal-space kind of gal.

 

[Pandora II]

Sometimes it also comes down to cultural situations.

I worked in Italy for 8 years and it was a given that you would be treated differently from a man, no-one even thought about it. A new dress of haircut would entail a big discussion by everyone male and female. I was never expected to buy a drink or coffee or anything. Men thought it normal to whistle at you and say things like 'complimenti'.

I once asked a female colleague if she found it odd and her reaction was to look at me in horror: 'I am a woman, I want the men to look at me and admire me, what woman would not?'

Only once in 8 years and 4 companies was I made truly uncomfortable - I was in the corridor doing some photocopying one evening and a man who was about 30 years older then me (one of the directors) decided to tell me in no uncertain terms about his fantasies involving me him and the photocopier - for me, this was sexual harassment.

On the other hand, my manager who used to phone me up to 'come through to my office and have some coffee as I want something pretty to look at' was completely harmless - I either told him I was busy, or went for a cup of coffee where he would show me pictures of his baby grand-daughter or discuss where he was taking his wife for the weekend. There was nothing sexual about it at all.

In London I would see it a different way, but there it was just the way life was. There was a big blur between work and leisure - most weekends I socialised with my colleagues, work rarely finished before 8-9pm and we'd all go for dinner afterwards, we went away to the mountains for weekends climbing etc - all very, very different from the UK (although politics was a bit similar).

Generally I think a sensible woman or man knows when the line is being overstepped and when they are feeling uncomfortable. I also think that low-level harrassment (comments etc) needs to be persistent - one throw-away remark is not enough.

 

[jewelerman]

I think a definition is essential in definition:
ha·rass    1.to disturb persistently; torment, as with troubles or cares; bother continually; pester; persecute.

The crux of "sexual harassment" is a continued pattern of behavior. I think we can all describe situations that may be of unwanted sexual, or personally inappropriate behavior, but to be identified as construed as "sexual harassment," there must be a pattern of this unwanted behavior.

I personally believe that most unwanted suggestive or inappropriate behavior can be stopped by the receiving participant pointing out that he/she is uncomfortable with the action or words and ask that it not happen again. We are all adults and should be able to act as such and attempt to resolve our own problems first, before becoming litigious.

i agree.
Also i would like to add that its not just physical contact but verbal. I once had to file a complaint against my boss for continuing to call co-workers and my self a F@%$ER and would try to tell us about his intimate fantasies involving his wife and girl friend. When we would ask him to stop he would retaliate by scheduling us all nights or give us long lists of his work to do while he left the store or went to his office to sleep or watch **** on the computer.The company responded with putting the crew through sensitivity training. it was less then 24 hours that he was using inappropriate language again.The whole crew under this manager has quit but he is still there abusing the new crew.

 

[kenny]

I NEVER comment on anyone's appearance. Period!
Work, friend, family, anyone, either gender.

Even if a woman is clearly happy that she was lost a lot of weight and others at work are saying, "You look wonderful now.", I say nothing!!!!!
Even if she directly asks me 'How do I look?' I'd say something polite but neutral like, "You always look great."
If I say she looks good after losing the weight how is she going to feel if she gains it back?

Many people are incredibly sensitive about their weight.
My SO is.
He has lost around 40 pounds since I met him but I will not comment on it.
He even shows off and says, "I can fit into a size 34 waist now", to which I reply, okay.

The world has changed.
I blame the media for making everyone nutty about body size.
I think they make billions on the weight loss industry, which is probably secretly owned by SaraLee, McDonald's and Burger King.

 

[kenny]

I think sexual harassment is any unwanted expression of sexual or romantic interest.

I recall instances when a woman has showed an interest in me.
The initial expression of interest is not offensive, it is flattering.
When I did not return the energy the woman almost always stopped.
To me this is NOT sexual harassment because she took no for answer.

Only once or twice did the woman continue and it made me uncomfortable that she didn't not read my body language and take no for an answer.
I don't know, but perhaps she was thinking/hoping that if she kept at it that I'd change my mind, and maybe that works sometimes.
Regardless, once you send the signal, body language, facial expression, or the words that it is a NO GO...if it continues after that it is sexual harassment.

 

[jaysonsmom]

I have been the victim of sexual harassment at work, and filed HR complaints and also jointly filed sexual harassment suit against the person. What the pseron did involved inappropriate verbal comments (not just about appearance), he'd offer breast exams, eye exams, back massages, and then proceed to touch without consent.

I don't mind compliments about my appearance, but if I sensed ANY sexual connotation to the compliment at all, it becomes grounds for a sexual harassment suit:

eg:
1) I like that color on you! (Innocent)
2) Your hair looks so silky, like my fingers could just run through it (Sexual Harassment)
3) NIce shoes (innocent)
4) I like how you move in your heels (Sexual Harassment!!!!)

I'm in a weird predicament right now. There's an older VP at my work who calls me "love", or "dearie" all the time, and he squeezes my shoulder in greeting....I don't know if it's just a cultural thing (South AMerican), but it's bothering me a little. I don't think it's sexual at this point, 'cos I know what TRUE sexual harassment was like from previous experience. What is your take?

 

[Pandora II]

If that is all he is doing and doesn't make you feel uncomfortable the rest of the time then I would say it is innocent. Also how does he treat other women in the office? Does he call them all dearie and squeeze their shoulders?

In my experience sexual harrassment tends to escalate if it's not stopped - if he's been calling you love and dearie for a couple of months then I think you're probably safe!

I agree with you on the comments and the difference between innocent and not.

I did work with a guy once who was incapable of not looking you up and down whenever you spoke to him. In the end, I waited till he did it in front of a load of people, stopped him and very slowly and deliberately did exactly the same to him. I don't know if he was embarrassed about being caught out or that the entire office was dying with laughter - but he never did it again.

 

[Jennifer W]

But men and women are NOT the same! I would appreciate a genuine compliment from either a man or woman within the workplace.

Searching my own level of comfort, I guess the only compliment that may make me uncomfortable is one from a manager, supervisor, or senior managements. Dunno why though.

No two people are the same, regardless of gender. think there are more differences between women than between women and men on topics like this. I'm personally not comfortable (or remotely receptive) to a compliment from anyone in the workplace, unless it is about my actual work.

I don't wish to be admired at work, as Pandora's Italian woman did. I don't set a lot of store by my appearance and it makes me uncomfortable when people behave as though I do / ought to.

I much prefer Kenny's approach, which strikes me as both sensible and appropriate in the workplace.

 

[iugurl]

I agree with what Jennifer and Trekkie have written. For me it's simple. Don't comment on my appearance or anything physical/personal while I am at my workplace and you are my colleague. The only comments I appreciate are those in a social situation and then only when it is coming from a friend or my dh (who is welcome to compliment me any time of day or place).

The thing is, you usually know sexual harassment when you are on the receiving end. If someone's comments/attitudes/body language make you feel uncomfortable that is a problem.

Hmmm. Well I always tell people if they look nice or if I like their cute new hairstyle, new shirt etc. I guess I would offend you and others in this thread who think such talk at work is inappropriate.

 

[Malajube]

I had a coworker who called me "My love" all the time and complimented me on my appearance (if I had a new piece of clothing or new haircut). He also liked to be close when he talked to me and would sometimes pat me on the back, touch my arm, etc. At first I felt uncomfortable around him but I soon realized he behaved the same way with almost everybody in the office. Some of my coworkers didn't appreciate this but I never felt his attitude was disrespectful. I think part of it was cultural and part of it was his personnality which was very expansive.

On the other hand, by boss when he came to my desk to explain something to me,would sometimes touch my shoulders or my arm in a way that I didn't feel was sexual, but a way to mark his authority over me, like I was his property or something. But again, this wasn't just with me, I observed he was this way with several other of my female coworkers. It's kind of hard to explain, but it always left me feeling uncomfortable. But otherwise he never made any innapropriate comments that would be of a sexual nature.

But what I really consider sexual harassment was at one of my first jobs I had in an engineering firm. I had to go every day in the filing room and had to pass in front of the technicians' office which was an open office with at least 15 guys sitting at their desk. And everytime, I had to listen to guys comment on several of my body parts in a very demeaning way. I was mortified. I didn't understand it because I never wore revealing clothing or dressed in a sexy way. I was young at the time, and never even thought of going to Human Resources with this. If this was to happen to me today, I would never tolerate it but of course it's probably why they kept at it, because they saw it made me uncomfortable and I didn't reply to their comments.

 

[Haven]

I think it's best to refrain from commenting about a person's appearance at work.

It makes me uncomfortable when people comment on my appearance at work. I don't think its sexual harrassment, but I don't think it's appropriate, either. I also agree with previous posters that the recipient of unwanted comments can usually put a stop to it by telling the person it makes her uncomfortable.

One thing that really bothers me is this ratemyprofessor.com website. It has a "hotness" rating, which encourages students to discuss appearance in their ratings. This is totally unhelpful to students who are trying to see if a professor will be the right fit for them. Sorry, I was recently made aware of this "hotness" rating, and it really irks me. Just as I am uncomfortable when colleagues comment on my appearance, I'm uncomfortable that a public forum exists on which my students are encouraged to comment on my appearance.

 

[Missy]

I agree with what Jennifer and Trekkie have written. For me it's simple. Don't comment on my appearance or anything physical/personal while I am at my workplace and you are my colleague. The only comments I appreciate are those in a social situation and then only when it is coming from a friend or my dh (who is welcome to compliment me any time of day or place).

The thing is, you usually know sexual harassment when you are on the receiving end. If someone's comments/attitudes/body language make you feel uncomfortable that is a problem.

Hmmm. Well I always tell people if they look nice or if I like their cute new hairstyle, new shirt etc. I guess I would offend you and others in this thread who think such talk at work is inappropriate.

It depends on a couple of factors. Who you are to me and how it is said and how it makes me feel. I have colleagues who I am friends/friendly with and that is usually ok. However there are certain people at work from whom I would not welcome personal comments/compliments. Like I wrote before-you know when something just does not feel right and makes you feel icky.

I was generalizing before just to simplify for df about how to avoid sexual harassment.
I actually enjoy genuine compliments from people but there is a proper time and place and most importantly who is it coming from and do you feel ok receiving it.

 

[TooPatient]

I have been the victim of sexual harassment at work, and filed HR complaints and also jointly filed sexual harassment suit against the person. What the pseron did involved inappropriate verbal comments (not just about appearance), he'd offer breast exams, eye exams, back massages, and then proceed to touch without consent.

I don't mind compliments about my appearance, but if I sensed ANY sexual connotation to the compliment at all, it becomes grounds for a sexual harassment suit:

eg:
1) I like that color on you! (Innocent)
2) Your hair looks so silky, like my fingers could just run through it (Sexual Harassment)
3) NIce shoes (innocent)
4) I like how you move in your heels (Sexual Harassment!!!!)

I'm in a weird predicament right now. There's an older VP at my work who calls me "love", or "dearie" all the time, and he squeezes my shoulder in greeting....I don't know if it's just a cultural thing (South AMerican), but it's bothering me a little. I don't think it's sexual at this point, 'cos I know what TRUE sexual harassment was like from previous experience. What is your take?

Since he's making you uncomfortable, you should mention it to him -- not in an accusing sort of way, just approached as this may be how he relates to other women (whether it is cultural or just how he is) but it makes you uncomfortable and you'd appreciate it if he didn't continue with these behaviors. (mention them specifically so there is no confusion what you are uncomfortable with).

Even if it is a cultural thing, if it makes you uncomfortable you should speak up.

 

[Jennifer W]

I agree with what Jennifer and Trekkie have written. For me it's simple. Don't comment on my appearance or anything physical/personal while I am at my workplace and you are my colleague. The only comments I appreciate are those in a social situation and then only when it is coming from a friend or my dh (who is welcome to compliment me any time of day or place).

The thing is, you usually know sexual harassment when you are on the receiving end. If someone's comments/attitudes/body language make you feel uncomfortable that is a problem.

Hmmm. Well I always tell people if they look nice or if I like their cute new hairstyle, new shirt etc. I guess I would offend you and others in this thread who think such talk at work is inappropriate.

I don't think it would offend me particularly, but I'd prefer not to hear it. It just makes me uncomfortable at work.

I suppose it would also depend on where you work and what you do. I work in health and social care management two days each week, and it would be inappropriate there. "Hey, I like your jacket..." me..."thanks, now shall we look at the projected mortality effect from winter flu on our vulnerable adult population this year?"

 

[Missy]

I think it's best to refrain from commenting about a person's appearance at work.

It makes me uncomfortable when people comment on my appearance at work. I don't think its sexual harrassment, but I don't think it's appropriate, either. I also agree with previous posters that the recipient of unwanted comments can usually put a stop to it by telling the person it makes her uncomfortable.

One thing that really bothers me is this ratemyprofessor.com website. It has a "hotness" rating, which encourages students to discuss appearance in their ratings. This is totally unhelpful to students who are trying to see if a professor will be the right fit for them. Sorry, I was recently made aware of this "hotness" rating, and it really irks me. Just as I am uncomfortable when colleagues comment on my appearance, I'm uncomfortable that a public forum exists on which my students are encouraged to comment on my appearance.

ugh, that really is not right. I agree with you Haven, that would make me terribly uncomfortable. It really objectifies the professors and that is unpleasant. It's really unfortunate that such a site exists and I wonder if there is anything the school can do.

I also think sexual harassment can be different things to different people so if it makes someone uncomfortable to be complimented on their appearance etc at work then that person(s) should be made aware of this so they can stop. Once they are made aware if it continues then that is harassment.

 

[kenny]

Is this sexual harassment?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=4fNsU8JfgcE

 

[phoenixgirl]

Haven, that is definitely inappropriate to rate "hotness." Another category is "easiness," which is also worthless. Most good professors are not easy graders.

I guess that drawing the line at any comments on physical appearance is a safe way to go, but in many cases a "You look nice today" is simply meant as a compliment and has never made me uncomfortable. "Your a$$ looks nice today," not so much. I had students, female colleagues, and male colleagues say "You look nice today" on a regular basis (I think because I usually look frumpy so when I dressed up, it was a real difference!) and I was usually just appreciative of the sentiment. BUT it's definitely a double standard because a guy who was socially awkward or pesky or whatever might find that the same comment everyone else is making turns into harassment. So better safe than sorry, I guess.

I worked with a guy who did make me uncomfortable. I can't remember the gist of it, but basically I don't think he ever did anything wrong; he just gave off a weird vibe, ya know? Then the next year a student accused him of molesting her when she took a test in his room. He was later cleared of all charges and it sounds like the girl was troubled and was just trying to get out of being grounded by her parents for something else, but I wonder if is general "weird vibe" had anything to do with it, ya know? Either he really did make her uncomfortable, or she saw that he was weak/different and could be taken advantage of.