i don''t understand our government''s policy on oil exploration...

[Dancing Fire]

we have enough oil here in our own backyard to drown the whole middle east, but b/c of those "environmentalist" we aren''t allow to dill in our own backyard.

we have the technology to dill for oil w/o harming the environment.

 

[tradergirl]

Take a look at and sign this petition. Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less . It has half a million signatures already.

www.americansolutions.com

 

[swimmer]

DF,
I''m just curious about your info on drilling not being environmentally harmful. I am from the Middle East and have seen what is undoubtedly now outdated technology; what processes are now out there that do not pollute the groundwater and air? I was also not aware that North America had that much accessible oil, can you post links to your information? I''m just finding jargon filled academic writing when googling. It would be great to base this discussion in fact, thank you in advance for this information.

 

[tanuki]

If you are not from America the thing is this.

The oil companies want to drill in a wildlife reserve in Alaska, but they don''t want to actually speculate with their own money - they want the American taxpayer to foot the bill and take the loss if their efforts are unsuccessful. If their efforts actually result in some oil being extracted they want to keep the profits.

Congress keeps voting them down so they have mounted a massive publicity campaign to win public support for this corporate welfare taxpayer boondoggle. They need to distract the public from the real issues at hand so they have created this all powerful environmentalist lobby so the beleagured public can all band together and put these mean old environmentalists in their place. While we are then sitting around high fiving each other the oil companies take their taxpayer subsidies and laugh all the way to the bank.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/10/2008 9:24:33 PM
Author: swimmer
DF,
I''m just curious about your info on drilling not being environmentally harmful. I am from the Middle East and have seen what is undoubtedly now outdated technology; what processes are now out there that do not pollute the groundwater and air? I was also not aware that North America had that much accessible oil, can you post links to your information? I''m just finding jargon filled academic writing when googling. It would be great to base this discussion in fact, thank you in advance for this information.

no links but i hear it on TV that we have the technology to do it. thanks to Harry Reed (d) and Nancy Pelosi (d) whom has just trashed another bill on energy exploration.

 

[rockzilla]

Maybe instead of relying on foreign oil and risking wildlife to pull it out of the ground, Americans should make some lifestyle changes and personal sacrifices for a change. Anyone remember how we had those WWII victory gardens and rationing? We''re in a war now, but how much sacrifice has this war demanded from individuals who are not in the military or military families?

Buy a more fuel efficient car, drive less, take public transit more (and before you start blabbing about how there''s no good public transit where you live a) put your vote behind it or b) move someplace where it exists or c) start using it), fly less, buy less crap made out of plastic , buy things locally made, buy LESS in general. Get a smaller house (do you need 4 bathrooms?) DEMAND that businesses operate with high levels of energy efficiency.

You can whiiinnnee..."Oh, but its the American dream to have a 3,000 sq foot house with a 6,000 square foot lawn to water, and 2 SUVs in the driveway" OR you can make personal choices that will make a difference in the lives of our children.

And don''t give me the "global warming is still a theory" BS - the majority of reputable scientists agree that it is happening.

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 6/10/2008 10:54:44 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 6/10/2008 9:24:33 PM

Author: swimmer

DF,

I''m just curious about your info on drilling not being environmentally harmful. I am from the Middle East and have seen what is undoubtedly now outdated technology; what processes are now out there that do not pollute the groundwater and air? I was also not aware that North America had that much accessible oil, can you post links to your information? I''m just finding jargon filled academic writing when googling. It would be great to base this discussion in fact, thank you in advance for this information.

no links but i hear it on TV that we have the technology to do it. thanks to Harry Reed (d) and Nancy Pelosi (d) whom has just trashed another bill on energy exploration.

Well DF, if you hear it on TV then it must be so! Why not do some actual research before posting these silly threads? Wait, you just want to bait people. I forgot.

Rocky, may I just word your entire post? Thanks! You said exactly what I was going to say. Enough with the "poor old me" whinging from spoiled Americans. Dont drive a gas guzzling SUV if you dont like the price of gas. Make changes in how you live and dont be such a parasite to the environment in which you live. It''s really not that difficult. Hey, I even saw a TV show all about it!

 

[Dancing Fire]

get ready for higher gas prices if Obama becomes Prez....said he''s gonna hit the oil Co''s with windfall taxes.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 6/17/2008 12:42:35 AM
Author: Dancing Fire
get ready for higher gas prices if Obama becomes Prez....said he''s gonna hit the oil Co''s with windfall taxes.

The gas prices are going to be high from now on, regardless of who is in office. Get over it. The free ride is over. Forever. We will adapt or perish, simple as that. I have contended for a long time that the only thing that would get the US off it''s collective addiction to the conspicuous consumption of oil, is PAIN. And we''re seeing it happen right now. If there had been no pain, no one would be inclined to stop driving that Hummer.

And it''s only fair that the oil companies get taxed on windfall profits, since those windfall profits are a result of decades of subsidies to oil companies. The overall corporate tax rate is estimated at about 18%, while the oil companies pay a mere 11%. So much for the highly touted and yet utterly mythical "free market".

FYI - I am currently watching an oil company take over an entire section of my city. They''ve bought up everything commercial within about a 3 block radius. They have a complex that is absolutely HUGE, and are building like there is no tomorrow. They have a daycare, a healthclub, restaurants, all on the premises. All this, while every other business around here is under siege and struggling.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

The oil in Alaska is pretty piddly compared to the oil we have in Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, etc.

I just quickly crunched the numbers:

Across the U.S. we have about 6 trillion barrels of oil we don''t drill, but much of that is oil shale, which isn''t rich enough to produce economically.
We have about 2 trillion barrels of rich oil--most of which is in the Rockies.
The U.S. uses about 20 million barrels a day, which is about 7.3 billion barrels a year.

So we have enough to last us about 274 years if we had to.

The problem is that if something were to happen where we would NEED our own oil, we couldn''t get this oil out of the ground for 8 - 10 years.

 

[surfgirl]

karen, relevant to your above post, I have to say that every time I see someone driving a Hummer, I just smile now, instead of getting upset. I just think about the price of filling up that gas hog and it makes me smile. I''m always amazed when such folks get all pissy and annoyed at the gas pumps. What were they thinking?! Oh yeah, "I''m American and I can do whatever I want to as long as it makes me happy..." It''s time for America - as a country - to grow up and be responsible. And I have no problem with that. I''m happy to have a more efficient car and my next car will likely be something like a Prius because it''s one way to pitch in and do my part.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 6/17/2008 12:45:33 PM
Author: surfgirl
karen, relevant to your above post, I have to say that every time I see someone driving a Hummer, I just smile now, instead of getting upset. I just think about the price of filling up that gas hog and it makes me smile. I''m always amazed when such folks get all pissy and annoyed at the gas pumps. What were they thinking?! Oh yeah, ''I''m American and I can do whatever I want to as long as it makes me happy...'' It''s time for America - as a country - to grow up and be responsible. And I have no problem with that. I''m happy to have a more efficient car and my next car will likely be something like a Prius because it''s one way to pitch in and do my part.

Well, I haven''t gotten to that quite yet, although I get a giggle every time the DH pithily refers to one of those - and a few other of the behemoth gas-guzzlers - as "PE vehicles". (Since the first time I had to ask, for those who don''t get it right away, PE = penile enhancement)

Yes, it is time for us to grow up, and to realize that just because we can, doesn''t always mean we should. I''m far from perfect in any category, certainly not in "green"-ness, but I will say I''ve always had a mind to fuel economy, for both personal economic AND environmental perspectives. We live in a society where not having a car is almost impossible. At least out here, it''s like that. There really IS no mass transit to speak of in OK. That said, from the time I could choose my cars, they''ve been small, and as fuel efficient as was available in my price range. Almost 2 years ago, I finally got rid of my ''97 Saturn, that even at nearly 10 years was still getting an average of 29 mpg. I replaced it with the first mid-sized car I''ve ever owned, a 2007 Camry. I did this partly because I can no longer "fall" into a low bucket seat anymore, being 45 with a bad back. And my mother, who is quite ill, could not either. I cringe even now, getting 25-28 mpg. I''d have loved to have been able to get the hybrid, but couldn''t afford the extra $4000-ish.

We also live in a 1100 sq ft house with a one car garage and 1 bath. (But absolutely gorgeous red oak floors) We compost AND have worm beds, and I don''t have a lawn service pouring herbicides on my ground, nor do I water the lawn much. Starting the vegetable garden is a project for next year.... And the DH has not had a new car in all his adult life. He''s too tight for that.

He''s still got a lot of farm blood in him, since his family were farm people and still have deep roots in rural America. He keeps me honest.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/17/2008 7:56:43 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 6/17/2008 12:42:35 AM
Author: Dancing Fire
get ready for higher gas prices if Obama becomes Prez....said he's gonna hit the oil Co's with windfall taxes.

And it's only fair that the oil companies get taxed on windfall profits, since those windfall profits are a result of decades of subsidies to oil companies. The overall corporate tax rate is estimated at about 18%, while the oil companies pay a mere 11%. So much for the highly touted and yet utterly mythical 'free market'.

if our government don't sunsidies guess who's gonna end up paying more at the pump? plus the oil Co's only make a profit of 8%. the oil Co's have no control on the price of oil.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 6/17/2008 8:11:06 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 6/17/2008 7:56:43 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 6/17/2008 12:42:35 AM
Author: Dancing Fire
get ready for higher gas prices if Obama becomes Prez....said he''s gonna hit the oil Co''s with windfall taxes.

And it''s only fair that the oil companies get taxed on windfall profits, since those windfall profits are a result of decades of subsidies to oil companies. The overall corporate tax rate is estimated at about 18%, while the oil companies pay a mere 11%. So much for the highly touted and yet utterly mythical ''free market''.

if our government don''t sunsidies guess who''s gonna end up paying more at the pump? plus the oil Co''s only make a profit of 8%. the oil Co''s have no control on the price of oil.

Are you telling us you don''t believe that the market works DF?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/17/2008 9:05:00 PM
Author: ksinger

Are you telling us you don''t believe that the market works DF?

what do you mean Karen?

 

[swimmer]

So I did some research, and this idea that oil can be extracted without damaging the surrounding groundwater, soil, etc is just false. As NEL said, the oil we have access to is not quite the most usable, both in quality and where it is located.

John McCain said that some places on earth are too pristine to drill, he was talking about Alaska.
I guess Alaska could be drilled, but then we leave a larger problem for our grandchildren. Its just selfish to even suggest it. Like gorging yourself while unborn generations are in store for famine and unbreathable air.

My Prius avgs 49 mpg, but that still isn''t the answer.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 6/18/2008 4:05:23 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 6/17/2008 9:05:00 PM
Author: ksinger


Are you telling us you don''t believe that the market works DF?

what do you mean Karen?

I ask that DF, because most people who rail against taxes as you do, also hold the idea that the market should be "free". Free of government manipulation is mainly what they''re talking about. Those subsidies you think that the oil companies should be getting - which amount to huge tax breaks - mean that the oil industry is getting preferential treatment in the marketplace. So, in a way those tax $$ that would normally be paid by a corporation are propping up the oil industry. If you are OK with government manipulation to that level, please note that they''re propping up the oil industy at the expense of propping up budding (and more long-term and sensible) industries like wind and solar. And do please remember, the oil companies are not in business for YOU, or the American people. They are in business to make money. They don''t give a rat''s patootie if you pay more at the pump. Yippee!! More for them. They have no high-minded societal mandate or government orders to make your life cheap and easy. So all this stuff about what the oil companies "ought" to be doing is silly. They''re in it to make money, and if that hurts the little guy, so what. The oil execs got theirs, who cares about you? There''s a reason the oil industry loves The Shrub you know...

As for the oil companies making a mere 8% profit, well a big old whatever on that one. Enron was reporting record profits to shareholders almost to the day it went belly up. Anyone in business knows you can pencilwhip just about anything into looking like a loss, or a profit, depending on what you need to show to the person you''re looking at at the moment.

And if you go out and actually do the quickest google - as people here have suggested more than once that you take the time to do, you will find that the oil companies DID make record profits last year. Here are just a few clips....recent ones...

On Friday Chevron (Research) became the latest big oil company to report a jump in profits for the third quarter, a day after Exxon Mobil (Research), the nation''s biggest oil company, reported $9.9 billion in net earnings -- the biggest corporate profit on record.

All told, the 19 oil and gas companies in the Standard & Poor''s 500 index that have reported so far have earned more than $20 billion excluding one-time charges and other items, up more than 50 percent from a year earlier, according to earnings tracker First Call.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/28/news/economy/windfall_tax/

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Soaring energy prices and record profits for big oil companies have sparked a wave of public outrage in the United States that''s led all the way to Capitol Hill.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/02/28/ST2008022800131.html
House Votes to End Big Oil''s Tax Breaks
Despite Veto Threat, Bill to Boost Renewable Energy Is Sent to Senate

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 6/16/2008 10:56:06 PM
Author: rockzilla
Maybe instead of relying on foreign oil and risking wildlife to pull it out of the ground, Americans should make some lifestyle changes and personal sacrifices for a change. Anyone remember how we had those WWII victory gardens and rationing? We''re in a war now, but how much sacrifice has this war demanded from individuals who are not in the military or military families?

Buy a more fuel efficient car, drive less, take public transit more (and before you start blabbing about how there''s no good public transit where you live a) put your vote behind it or b) move someplace where it exists or c) start using it), fly less, buy less crap made out of plastic , buy things locally made, buy LESS in general. Get a smaller house (do you need 4 bathrooms?) DEMAND that businesses operate with high levels of energy efficiency.

You can whiiinnnee...''Oh, but its the American dream to have a 3,000 sq foot house with a 6,000 square foot lawn to water, and 2 SUVs in the driveway'' OR you can make personal choices that will make a difference in the lives of our children.

And don''t give me the ''global warming is still a theory'' BS - the majority of reputable scientists agree that it is happening.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Selkie]

Date: 6/17/2008 10:44:46 AM
Author: NewEnglandLady
The oil in Alaska is pretty piddly compared to the oil we have in Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, etc.

I just quickly crunched the numbers:

Across the U.S. we have about 6 trillion barrels of oil we don''t drill, but much of that is oil shale, which isn''t rich enough to produce economically.

We have about 2 trillion barrels of rich oil--most of which is in the Rockies.

The U.S. uses about 20 million barrels a day, which is about 7.3 billion barrels a year.


So we have enough to last us about 274 years if we had to.


The problem is that if something were to happen where we would NEED our own oil, we couldn''t get this oil out of the ground for 8 - 10 years.

Hey NEL, where are you getting the 2 trillion barrels figure? DOE states we have proven reserves of only 21 billion barrels.

 

[Selkie]

Date: 6/7/2008 4:00:40 PM
Author:Dancing Fire
we have enough oil here in our own backyard to drown the whole middle east, but b/c of those 'environmentalist' we aren't allow to dill in our own backyard.

we have the technology to dill for oil w/o harming the environment.

By the way, DF:

"Much of the nation's coastal waters are off-limits to new oil and gas leasing until 2012 under executive orders first issued by Bush's father, President George H.W. Bush, in 1991 and extended by President Clinton in 1998. In addition, Congress has taken action annually since 1981 to preclude drilling in coastal areas." LA Times, 6/18.

Last I checked, Bush Sr. wasn't exactly one of those dreaded environmentalists.

and: "Douglas Holtz-Eakin, a senior advisor to McCain's campaign, acknowledged in a conference call to reporters that new offshore drilling would have no immediate effect on supplies or prices."

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 6/18/2008 11:13:56 AM
Author: Selkie

Date: 6/17/2008 10:44:46 AM
Author: NewEnglandLady
The oil in Alaska is pretty piddly compared to the oil we have in Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, etc.

I just quickly crunched the numbers:

Across the U.S. we have about 6 trillion barrels of oil we don''t drill, but much of that is oil shale, which isn''t rich enough to produce economically.

We have about 2 trillion barrels of rich oil--most of which is in the Rockies.

The U.S. uses about 20 million barrels a day, which is about 7.3 billion barrels a year.


So we have enough to last us about 274 years if we had to.


The problem is that if something were to happen where we would NEED our own oil, we couldn''t get this oil out of the ground for 8 - 10 years.

Hey NEL, where are you getting the 2 trillion barrels figure? DOE states we have proven reserves of only 21 billion barrels.

No problem, Selkie.

The 21 million barrels figure only refers to what is already drilled. I think the U.S. only produces something like 5 million barrels a day, yet we use about 20 million barrels a day, so if our country needed to depend on itself for oil, we might have enough to last us a few years if we stretched it.

The 2 trillion in rich oil figure refers to untapped resources. This is oil that could be drilled, but isn''t and most likely never will be (unless a disaster struck and everybody collectively said "oh crap, now what?" in which case it would be too late).

Here''s a quck DOE fact sheet:
http://www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/reserves/npr/Oil_Shale_Resource_Fact_Sheet.pdf

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/18/2008 8:36:04 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 6/18/2008 4:05:23 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 6/17/2008 9:05:00 PM
Author: ksinger



Are you telling us you don''t believe that the market works DF?

what do you mean Karen?

And if you go out and actually do the quickest google - as people here have suggested more than once that you take the time to do, you will find that the oil companies DID make record profits last year. Here are just a few clips....recent ones...

sooo if.....WalMart or any other supermarkets makes record profits we should tax them to death too?

All told, the 19 oil and gas companies in the Standard & Poor''s 500 index that have reported so far have earned more than $20 billion excluding one-time charges and other items, up more than 50 percent from a year earlier, according to earnings tracker First Call.

i hope you were smart enough to buy some of their stocks.

i know whats going on in the oil market,too much speculation by oil traders. i shorted the oil market when oil hit $109 per barrels and yes i''m losing my ASSS.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/18/2008 11:23:51 AM
Author: Selkie

Date: 6/7/2008 4:00:40 PM
Author:Dancing Fire
we have enough oil here in our own backyard to drown the whole middle east, but b/c of those 'environmentalist' we aren't allow to dill in our own backyard.

we have the technology to dill for oil w/o harming the environment.

By the way, DF:

'Much of the nation's coastal waters are off-limits to new oil and gas leasing until 2012 under executive orders first issued by Bush's father, President George H.W. Bush, in 1991 and extended by President Clinton in 1998. In addition, Congress has taken action annually since 1981 to preclude drilling in coastal areas.' LA Times, 6/18.

Last I checked, Bush Sr. wasn't exactly one of those dreaded environmentalists.

and: 'Douglas Holtz-Eakin, a senior advisor to McCain's campaign, acknowledged in a conference call to reporters that new offshore drilling would have no immediate effect on supplies or prices.'

i don't care who is the President dems or rep. every country in the world is drilling in our backyard but us.

this should been done many years ago...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080618/ap_on_go_pr_wh/offshore_oil_29;_ylt=AqT7uYf4BFIK2Y_hy7xiSDEE1vAI

 

[surfgirl]

DF, who is exactly is the "they" that are supposedly drilling in our backyard? Please elaborate/explain. Thank you.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 6/18/2008 12:25:55 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 6/18/2008 8:36:04 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 6/18/2008 4:05:23 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 6/17/2008 9:05:00 PM
Author: ksinger




Are you telling us you don''t believe that the market works DF?

what do you mean Karen?

And if you go out and actually do the quickest google - as people here have suggested more than once that you take the time to do, you will find that the oil companies DID make record profits last year. Here are just a few clips....recent ones...

sooo if.....WalMart or any other supermarkets makes record profits we should tax them to death too?

All told, the 19 oil and gas companies in the Standard & Poor''s 500 index that have reported so far have earned more than $20 billion excluding one-time charges and other items, up more than 50 percent from a year earlier, according to earnings tracker First Call.

i hope you were smart enough to buy some of their stocks.

i know whats going on in the oil market,too much speculation by oil traders. i shorted the oil market when oil hit $109 per barrels and yes i''m losing my ASSS.

I always find the "speculation" argument odd--it''s the speculators who take a risk in the market. Forget oil and go long on corn or soybeans--none of the farmers in the midwest can get anything in the ground because of floods and even with extra imports the prices are going to skyrocket.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/18/2008 1:03:20 PM
Author: surfgirl
DF, who is exactly is the ''they'' that are supposedly drilling in our backyard? Please elaborate/explain. Thank you.

yes, THEY....meaning other countries are drilling off the Florida coast but us.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 6/18/2008 11:36:52 AM
Author: NewEnglandLady

The 2 trillion in rich oil figure refers to untapped resources. This is oil that could be drilled, but isn''t and most likely never will be (unless a disaster struck and everybody collectively said ''oh crap, now what?'' in which case it would be too late).

Here''s a quck DOE fact sheet:
http://www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/reserves/npr/Oil_Shale_Resource_Fact_Sheet.pdf

see what i mean....we have enough oil to make the middle east countries poor,less $$$''s for them less terrorism for us.that will end of the war!!

 

[ksinger]

Date: 6/18/2008 2:52:47 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 6/18/2008 11:36:52 AM
Author: NewEnglandLady


The 2 trillion in rich oil figure refers to untapped resources. This is oil that could be drilled, but isn''t and most likely never will be (unless a disaster struck and everybody collectively said ''oh crap, now what?'' in which case it would be too late).

Here''s a quck DOE fact sheet:
http://www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/reserves/npr/Oil_Shale_Resource_Fact_Sheet.pdf

see what i mean....we have enough oil to make the middle east countries poor,less $$$''s for them less terrorism for us.that will end of the war!!

Oh yeah, that''s helpful. Impoverishing a people has always been good for stability and great for the ruling classes. And you don''t seem to understand that right now the increased "demand" for oil is being driven in great part by countries like China dumping great parts of their reserves of dollars, to buy oil futures before the dollar becomes worthless. Pretty soon the Middle East will not be accepting dollars for oil anymore, but Euros instead. What will they care if they have less dollars? They''ll have valuable euros. We can keep our worthless dollar, or exchange it for expensive euros to pay for our oil. Even assuming we do drill for those barrels, what on earth makes you think they will be cheap to get or cheap to buy, since you seem to think the oil companies are going to spend more than they want to to get the oil and then sell it to you for 79 cents a gallon.... If they didn''t see that it is better to sit on those resources that they already have access to - and they DO - they''d have drilled them out years ago. No, they''re waiting for the price to go up.



I''ve come to the conclusion based on the consistency of your postings, that you truly just do not get it. I doubt seriously you even read that DOE sheet.

 

[Dancing Fire]

oil co's don't want oil to be sky high. high oil price will slow down the world economy. i think $70-$75 per barrel would keep everybody happy.

what percentage of the people in China that can afford to pay $4 per gal of gas if the Chinese government decided not to subsidize? the answer....probably less than 50%.

 

[ksinger]

Interesting opinion piece about oil drilling and policy...

Driller Instinct by Paul Krugman

Also, the DH was listening to NPR (aka - Nerdy Peoples'' Radio) yesterday, and said that they were talking about why the oil companies are so hot to get their hands on the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge lands, even though as Krugman mentions, they don''t really have much interest in drilling them, (or much of anything for that matter): apparently their stocks are valued by the amount of reserves they have leases on. I didn''t know that.

He also found a document with a rotary rig count from 1949 to the present. It''s very interesting. I''m trying to figure some way to get the info on here, but I have to run to work.

FYI - this is a topic of some interest to the DH, since he worked the oil fields during the oil boom in Oklahoma in the early 80''s...