How often do you talk to aging parents?

[Circe]

I'm curious: once you're adults, with homes of your own and multiple responsibilities (jobs, kids, etc.), how often do you talk to your parents?

 

[monarch64]

On average, I speak to my mother either in person or on the phone once a week. That is about all I can handle.

 

[jaysonsmom]

My parents live in a different country, but they are technologicaly savvy, so we skype each other about once a week. They also come and stay with us up to 3 months every summer. I'm fortunate that they do take great care of each other, and are in good health, but when they get older, I'd prefer to have them much closer to me, and probably talk to them more often.

 

[Jennifer W]

Maybe once or twice a month. We don't talk on the phone, but do text occasionally, and we visit every two or three weeks. It's as much as I can cope with.

 

[sonnyjane]

My mom I talk to maybe twice a week. My dad I talk to on major holidays.

DH talks to his parents on major holidays/birthdays only. No bad blood between anyone we just don't talk frequently.

 

[Circe]

I'll go first. Generally, my parents expect me to speak to them at least once a day. They get very upset if I miss calls (keep in mind I work and have a toddler).

They're also deeply depressed, perpetually negative, and prone to interpreting every last damn thing as a personal and mortal insult: for example, last weekend we had a dinner scheduled with my inlaws, but I got a dreadful migraine and had to cancel it; this resulted in lots of yelling - which, let me tell you, is awesome when you have a migraine - and the use of phrases like, "fine, then, you have no mother!" and my dad deciding my inlaws are anti-semites. (I don't get it, either.) (Also, they're not: they're approximately the nicest people you can imagine.) Since then, oddly enough, I haven't felt like ringing them, and they're interpreting this as my being a "traitor," choosing other people over them, being unappreciative of all the sacrifices they've made for me over the years, etc., etc., etc.

I am at my wit's end. It would be one thing if the daily phone calls resulted in some kind of benefit to them: if they'd tell me problems and let me help them fix them, for example. Instead, it's a litany of criticism, and some complaining about other things - the neighbors, politics, whatever. It has been literally years since I've heard them say anything positive.

Am I being a bad daughter if I, a) politely refuse to listen to any more of the criticism and flatly tell them that if they start, I will be saying goodbye, and, b) take the phone calls down to once a week or less? Having been raised in a small family with a borderline disorder personality parent, I tend to be a little fuzzy on when it is and is not okay to draw boundaries.

I know I do not want to talk to them. At all. But I want to know what the baseline for being a responsible child to aging parents is, by normal-person standards.

ETA: Heh, looks like I was wordy enough to be far from first! Thank you for sharing that, guys - while I am sorry that some of you also have folks who are had to handle, I feel a little better hearing that the daily phone call is apparently not the norm.

 

[CJ2008]

I cast more than once per month but it's probably more like once a week...sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less...

I'm sure she wishes it was every day...

Visiting is about once a month...sometimes more, sometimes less...

She probably wishes it was more too. She does try to give me the guilt trip about it once in a while, and often, it works...I mean I know they won't be around forever.

But I'm a loner, and don't much like visiting or talking on the phone, so any more than this takes a lot to do.

ETA: I should add...my parents do sound like a delight compared to most people's parents...they are generally positive, upbeat people, always been able to take care of themselves, always been there for us, pretty much don't meddle in our business, etc. They're far from perfect, of course, but they're not miserable, etc. So it's really not about "them" why I don't visit or call more...

ETA2: Circe, my mother used to be the same way with the phone calls. If I didn't call every day, she wouldn't talk to me when I did call...she'd tell my father to tell me she didn't want to talk to me. It took me YEARS to get the courage to not call every day and be OK with her getting mad. It was really hard. But I did it. It's probably one of the reasons I hate the phone so much - all those years of being obligated to call.

 

[monarch64]

Circe, it is ok to set boundaries. They gave you life, but they do not own you. I say the same about my child--I brought her into the world, but she doesn't BELONG to me. I am guiding her into becoming an independent human being who is a productive and positive member of society. That doesn't mean she owes me a damn thing. The last thing I want is for her to feel suffocated or imposed upon by me.

I have distanced myself from family members for various reasons, mostly for my own mental/emotional well-being. I do not feel guilty because I don't allow anyone to make me feel guilty about it.

ETA: you are not a bad daughter! A parent calling their child a traitor, or threatening to disown them ("you have no mother") is what I would consider abusive and if I were you I wouldn't want to speak to them anymore, either. I'm so sorry you've had to deal with this for so long. Maybe it's time to break the cycle?

 

[manderz]

My parents have split, though they now get along much better than when they were married. We have weekly dinners with them, but the frequency with which we talk varies. Sometimes it's daily, sometimes it's more like once a week. I get a long really well wit my dad, at this point in my life he's more like a friend that a parent, and as a result we obviously talk more often. My mom drives me kinda crazy, and we talk probably half as much as I do with my dad.

Right now, we're talking more than usual, as my grandmother is going through a health crisis, and declining pretty rapidly. We are talking more frequently regarding her, and trying to support one another through a stressful time.

 

[ruby59]

I see my mother and mother in law every other day. My mother lives in a nursing home, but I am her power of attorney. Because of her dementia, I have to see her very often or she gets agitated. I take her to all of her medical appointments. My husband and I share my mother in law with my brother in law and his wife. She lives with us part of the week. I also take her to all medical appointments, which is often. We are part of the sandwich generation with children still at home and responsibilites for our aging parents. I also work part time, but for my husband, so scheduling is easy, at least.

 

[sonnyjane]

I see my mother and mother in law every other day. My mother lives in a nursing home, but I am her power of attorney. Because of her dementia, I have to see her very often or she gets agitated. I take her to all of her medical appointments. My husband and I share my mother in law with my brother in law and his wife. She lives with us part of the week. I also take her to all medical appointments, which is often. We are part of the sandwich generation with children still at home and responsibilites for our aging parents. I also work part time, but for my husband, so scheduling is easy, at least.

Just had to say kudos to you for doing that. I'm "child-free by choice" because I know myself well enough to know I'm too selfish to care for children. Because of that, I'm also very proactive with my mother to make sure she has all of her affairs in order for when she retires in a couple of years. I imagine you are very busy!

 

[Kunzite]

Circe, it is ok to set boundaries. They gave you life, but they do not own you. I say the same about my child--I brought her into the world, but she doesn't BELONG to me. I am guiding her into becoming an independent human being who is a productive and positive member of society. That doesn't mean she owes me a damn thing. The last thing I want is for her to feel suffocated or imposed upon by me.

I have distanced myself from family members for various reasons, mostly for my own mental/emotional well-being. I do not feel guilty because I don't allow anyone to make me feel guilty about it.

ETA: you are not a bad daughter! A parent calling their child a traitor, or threatening to disown them ("you have no mother") is what I would consider abusive and if I were you I wouldn't want to speak to them anymore, either. I'm so sorry you've had to deal with this for so long. Maybe it's time to break the cycle?

Monarch is spot on. Circe, I know you've mentioned BPD before but I want to say that it is ALWAYS okay to set boundaries. I urge you to check out the book Emotional Blackmail or any of the applicable Susan Forward books.

As for how often I speak to my parents, it's different for each of them. My dad is not toxic and has a healthy relationship with my family, so we talk about once a week. My mother is extremely toxic and I haven't spoken to her in about a year after she pulled a truly horrific stunt with my 4 year old niece.

 

[TooPatient]

I voted for "some other variable"!

My father is an abusive alcoholic. I put up with watching him hurt my mother and having him hurt me (physically and emotionally). My earliest memories are of hiding with my stuffed animals hoping that he wouldn't hurt anyone tonight and hoping that the police wouldn't come again. Maybe if I was good enough it would be okay.
Needless to say, I got sick of this. He got in trouble for a serious crime. I tried to move on with our relationship when he got out of prison. It went okay for a bit -- and then he started drinking again.
I tried to call once a month or so but every call was miserable. He sat there doing nothing but criticizing my choices in life and accusing me of being a bad daughter for not calling more often.

I don't talk to him any more. Haven't since 2004.


My mother is tricky. We've had ups and downs through my whole life. She is an alcoholic also. That caused lots of bad things in life (who chooses to buy more beer when there isn't food for your kids?!?!). She did quit drinking for about 10 years. It took a lot of work, but we'd built a better relationship and spoke once a week or more often. She also finally decided to divorce her husband (not my father, the man she married after him) and started having some respect for herself.
And then she started drinking again.
She's now living with her ex-husband in his parents' house (with his parents) and letting herself be walked all over again.

We saw each other at Thanksgiving (hardly spoke at all) because my grandparents hosted. She did NOT come to my wedding in October. The last time we spoke was probably 2-3 months ago. Not looking promising for a call any time soon.


Life is too short to put up with manipulation and abuse. My father (and now quite possibly my mother) did and said things that were WAY over any reasonable line. I don't need that kind of crud in my life.

 

[amc80]

I hate the phone. I rarely use it to make calls. I would doubt if I average more than three minutes a day. My friends and I don't call each other to chat. We will email or text, it's just more efficient that way. The only exceptions are BIG news (engagement, pregnancy, etc.). You know, when there's actually something to say. My mom doesn't understand this. She talks to her mom daily and her close friends weekly. She used to call me at work to see what I was doing ("um, working?"). She wants updates on every person and situation. The thing I try to get her to understand is that we are all just living our daily lives and if something noteworthy happens I will call her. I do try to talk to her once a week, otherwise I will get texts such as "are you okay, I haven't heard from you."

 

[packrat]

I talked to my mom almost every day until several years ago. Dad mentioned once that I was using all mom's minutes on her phone to call and chat. Then we had an argument and didn't talk for a long time. After that, I'd call once a week. Then our son came and my parents pretty much disappeared. We rarely see them anymore. They stopped by the other night b/c they had 5 minutes to kill before they went to the movie. Or they'll stop by to drop off a bunch of grocery sacks for me, and it's in and out hi/bye. I see them about 15 minutes a month. I used to call and invite mom places but she always had to "ask" dad first if it was ok, and I'm just like whatever, it's not worth it. So I quit. We used to have them over once a week for supper and the casino is more important, so we quit. They come for Thanksgiving and Christmas, and dad will check his watch 100 times.

I'll add that since *I* only see my parents 15 minutes a month, that's all the attention my KIDS get too. THAT makes me mad, but whatever, that's their decision, I guess!

 

[qtiekiki]

Does text count? I am constantly texting my mom and sisters, multiple times a day. Actually speaking on the phone, I would say at least once a month. I voted based on phone calls.

 

[Ally T]

I speak to my mother everyday. I see her once or twice a week as she is only a 15 minute drive & 3 villages from here, but we talk lots. I have 2 sisters & 1 brother, and I think we ALL speak to mum everyday! We are a very close family, even more so since we lost dad 12 years ago & again even more so from that since we all married & had childrenchildren of our own. The children all play together every Tuesday afternoon at mum's & she cooks all 7 of them dinner

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Am I being a bad daughter if I, a) politely refuse to listen to any more of the criticism and flatly tell them that if they start, I will be saying goodbye, and, b) take the phone calls down to once a week or less? Having been raised in a small family with a borderline disorder personality parent, I tend to be a little fuzzy on when it is and is not okay to draw boundaries.

I know I do not want to talk to them. At all. But I want to know what the baseline for being a responsible child to aging parents is, by normal-person standards.

.

You for sure need to set boundaries and the amount of phone calls you have with your parents are based on what YOU can put up with. Some are ok talking daily and others can barely handle once a year. You ABSOLUTELY have the right to tell them you don't want to hear the negativity/criticism, but there is a good chance they won't get the hint, so be prepared to hang up. It sounds like they're upsetting you to the point that the relationship is unhealthy for you. You can take charge though...and use your power as an adult to choose what is a more comfortable amount of frequency to speak w/them.

And, FWIW, I had to set boundaries w/my mom and she didn't like that at all and any time we try and reconnect, I end up having to step back b/c the exact same patterns emerge.

 

[Maisie]

I used to call my dad about once a month until a couple of weeks ago when he had a heart attack. Now the poor bloke is sick of me calling him. No doubt he will start ignoring me soon bless him.

 

[diamondringlover]

I talk to my Mom once a week, sometimes more...I usually go and stay over night with her about once a month...she loves it when I come over..I just havent had time this month and I am feeling quite guilty about it...its just been so busy and I had been sick as well....oh well I will see her next week

 

[Lady_Disdain]

One thing that worked for me was to have a set day for a phone call (Monday at night). Sometimes, it was a quick check in, sometimes, a long conversation. But having the set day helped my mother not stress and cut down on the "just checking up on you" phone calls that would drive me crazy. If I had something to do on Monday, I would send a text message and we would talk on Tuesday, so it wasn't written in stone and we all had some flexibility.

 

[distracts]

I talk to my parents anywhere from once a week to every day to multiple times a day. Just kind of depends. Most people in my family seem to talk to their parents/siblings at least once a week. My husband talks to my parents at least once every other week. He talks to HIS parents only on major holidays. I talk to his parents about once a year.

I wouldn't talk to my parents so much if I didn't genuinely like them as people. I know there are a bunch of families - my husband's, for instance - that only speak to each other because they're related. I truly feel that if I wasn't related to my parents and met them, we would be friends anyway. Probably wouldn't talk quite so much, but if they were my age rather than 35 years older, we'd definitely still speak every week. We have a lot of aimless conversations where we're just reading news articles we thought the other person would find interesting or saying "oh, go look at this funny youtube video!" and laughing on the phone. A lot of phone calls are simply talking about whatever silly things our pets got up to (my parents don't actually have pets, but they feed this stray cat and he's kind of like their pet). Usually talking to them at least once a week isn't a problem, but if I get really busy and forget to call, once a week or so goes by I start getting emails and texts asking if everything is alright, so I then feel the need to check in.

My husband and my dad talk to each other about cooking. They like to trade tips.

As far as I am aware, my parents talked to their parents on a similar schedule.

My husband's parents are always guilt-tripping him and often spend the phone call being generally not pleasant, so he tries to minimize contact. Keeping it to major holidays gives a ready-made topic of conversation so that they can't pry into other parts of our lives, and if he calls right before we have to be somewhere, there's a ready-made conversation ender as well.

ABSOLUTELY draw boundaries if the conversations are doing nothing but causing pain and stress. I don't think anyone is under obligation to subject themselves to that. If the relationship is toxic, do not keep it. And don't feel bad about it. At the end of the day, you are not responsible for your parents' emotional state or mental health. Set boundaries, make rules, and when they violate them, end the conversation and go X amount of time without talking to them until you recover (X should be a pretty clearly set amount of time communicated to them in advance). This is less for them than it is for you. They know the rules and if they choose to break them, they experience the consequences. And YOU know the rules and if they break them, you get time to step back and evaluate and implement the consequences without feeling bad because, well, they knew them in advance.

 

[Rhea]

I didn't appreciate what I had until I moved over 4,000 miles away in my early 20's. I love and miss my parents. I'm particularly close to my mother but as my younger sister grows up and we start to have more in common I find that we talk a lot more as well. My parents are in poor health and I find it maddening to visit them because that means living with them for at least 10 days. My parents are both very overweight, don't take care of themselves, and don't have a good relationship so living with them even for a few days is hard. But the phone, I call as often as I think about it. some times it's once a day for several days in a row and sometimes we miss a couple of week. It probably averages out to about once a week for 90 minutes. If we miss a couple weeks it ends up as a 3 hour phone marathon with several hand-offs as people go the toilet or start to cook breakfast and lunch. I visit them about once to twice a year.

I'm sorry to hear that your parents are rather difficult, Circe. I can't imagine having those expectations and being spoken to that way as an adult.

 

[Smith1942]

I talk to mine all the time, sometimes a few times a day, but this is a completely skewed example as we have terminal health crises going on. Even so, sometimes we get busy and go 2-4 days without speaking. Before the illness, we spoke maybe twice a week, but that was mainly because I'm so far away and got lonely. Under normal circs - i.e. living in the same country, an hour away - we'd probably talk once a week and visit every month or so.

Ugh, Circe, I'm so sorry you have this going on with your parents. Clearly, they're driving you nuts.

The stuff they say, and the invisible fishing wire they have you on the end of to make you call whenever they tug the line...it's all an illusion. They have no control over you - as the young, healthy adult you actually have a lot more control than them. It's them who'd be stuffed in old age if you cut them loose, not you. I wouldn't be surprised if the ultra-control was about fear. The fear that you could easily dump them and there'd be nothing they could do about it. Don't feel bad for going along with it - they are your parents and as kids we are programmed to need their love and approval, cause otherwise, you know, we'd starve.

All their nonsense? See if for what it is - utter bollocks. Oh, you'd be surprised how well they'd survive if you didn't call them for a while. This impression they give that the world will fall off its axis if you don't call - it's all a great big illusion. Their control over you is nothing more than the wizard of Oz behind the curtain making the illusion happen with the levers. They're like magicians who appear to be cutting someone in half when it's all mirrors. Your parents make out that to not hear from you cuts them in half, when they'll be just fine.

If you want to teach them that their nonsense has no effect on you but you don't want a great big confrontation that could get out of control, start training them, like controlled crying. The more wailing they do, the longer between calls. You'll soon find the calls get more civilised. And the minute they start, you get off that phone. They do not have to know the real reason why if you don't want to give them an excuse to fight - because sometimes, that's what people want. My sister would start on me during a phone conversation, and I trained her not to do it using Pavlovian methods. It's really simple - the minute they start, there's someone at the door, or the pot's boiling over, or - oh, shit! The plant's just blown off the ledge. Sometimes, I've rang my own front doorbell and said, "Oh, gotta go!"

The trick is that it must be super-swift. Like, a microsecond after they start. Sister: "I just don't think that your husband cares about the family." Me, ultra-breezy: "Oh, sorry N, there's someone at the door. Gotta go! We'll talk about it next time, OK? Bye!" And then of course you don't call back and you're unavailable for a while. Do this a few times and the message: "I'm not going to listen to your shit" will be heard loud and clear. That way, they don't get the satisfaction of an argument or of upsetting you so they can be negative about you and thus have their behaviour towards you justified in their mind - which is what they want.

After a few times of that, subconsciously it sinks in that negativity will get them a boring result - the end of the call, not the argument that they wanted.

And, if it's not that easy, when they start with their nonsense, another thing you could do is just laugh at them and change the subject. They need to see that their attempt at control has zero effect on you. Example:

"Circe, you haven't called in days! We were so worried about you. We couldn't sleep. We cancelled our dinner party. How could you do this to us?"

You: "I know, I know. I'm the worst daughter ever. I have no idea why you want me around! You were right to worry - this is my dead body talking to you. I'm now a ghost. Mwah hah haah! Anyway, how was your day?"

The point is, you need to get ultra-breezy and laugh it off. That way, they will KNOW they have no effect on you.

And, if they really start and will not be trained, you get Cruella firm and say in an even, clear, headmistressy voice, "Mom, I am not going to listen to this. Goodbye." And then no contact until they apologise. It'll be like a paradise vacation. And don't worry about never speaking to them again -that only happens where a ton of bad stuff has been said, whereas all you will have said is that you won't listen to their nonsense. That's not relationship-busting stuff, it's boundary-setting and they will come round. Might take a while if they're not used to it, but you hold all the cards.

I know all this is about a million times easier said than done. I think the stress that some parents put their adult kids through is just criminal. And don't even get me started on how it's usually daughters who get it in the neck with the expectations and the invisible string aimed at keeping you a controlled baby while sons are let right off that hook...Bah, humbug.

 

[Circe]

First off, thank you ALL for weighing in. I'm going to respond to the people who were writing directly to my situation and not in response to the general question (though I appreciate you guys weighing in, too ... and am quietly squirreling away details so that when my kid is grown, he's in your camp and not mine!).

On average, I speak to my mother either in person or on the phone once a week. That is about all I can handle.

I would LOVE to be able to get it down to that. Possibly on a schedule, so every conversation won't begin with "Why haven't you called?" I notice a number of people say there's a set time, like a phone date ... how do y'all get parents to agree to that?

Maybe once or twice a month. We don't talk on the phone, but do text occasionally, and we visit every two or three weeks. It's as much as I can cope with.

Jen, could I ask ... when you visit, any tricks for keeping agita to a minimum? The last time they were here (for my son's 2nd birthday), I ground my teeth hard enough that I chipped one. NO WANTY.

My mom I talk to maybe twice a week. My dad I talk to on major holidays.

DH talks to his parents on major holidays/birthdays only. No bad blood between anyone we just don't talk frequently.

This sounds idyllic and laid-back. I salute you.

I cast more than once per month but it's probably more like once a week...sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less...

I'm sure she wishes it was every day...

Visiting is about once a month...sometimes more, sometimes less...

She probably wishes it was more too. She does try to give me the guilt trip about it once in a while, and often, it works...I mean I know they won't be around forever.

But I'm a loner, and don't much like visiting or talking on the phone, so any more than this takes a lot to do.

ETA: I should add...my parents do sound like a delight compared to most people's parents...they are generally positive, upbeat people, always been able to take care of themselves, always been there for us, pretty much don't meddle in our business, etc. They're far from perfect, of course, but they're not miserable, etc. So it's really not about "them" why I don't visit or call more...

ETA2: Circe, my mother used to be the same way with the phone calls. If I didn't call every day, she wouldn't talk to me when I did call...she'd tell my father to tell me she didn't want to talk to me. It took me YEARS to get the courage to not call every day and be OK with her getting mad. It was really hard. But I did it. It's probably one of the reasons I hate the phone so much - all those years of being obligated to call.

CJ, I'm glad you found a balance. Could I ask you how you got past the part where she got mad? Did you just put your head down and go through it, did you have a talk where you agreed on things ...? I've been stuck in this all-or-nothing space for too long, and while right now I'm appreciating the "nothing," I, too, realize they won't be around forever ... so I'd like to hopefully get past the constant recrimination. I'm just damned if I know how to do it.

Circe, it is ok to set boundaries. They gave you life, but they do not own you. I say the same about my child--I brought her into the world, but she doesn't BELONG to me. I am guiding her into becoming an independent human being who is a productive and positive member of society. That doesn't mean she owes me a damn thing. The last thing I want is for her to feel suffocated or imposed upon by me.

I have distanced myself from family members for various reasons, mostly for my own mental/emotional well-being. I do not feel guilty because I don't allow anyone to make me feel guilty about it.

ETA: you are not a bad daughter! A parent calling their child a traitor, or threatening to disown them ("you have no mother") is what I would consider abusive and if I were you I wouldn't want to speak to them anymore, either. I'm so sorry you've had to deal with this for so long. Maybe it's time to break the cycle?

Monarch, I agree with you 1000% (add some zeros for good measure, delicate sensibilities of mathematicians the world over be damned). When I look at my husband's family, where he calls once a week or so, no pressure, sometimes missing a week or two without hassle, as a result of which he actually looks forward to calling them, as compared to mine, where my shoulders tense up when I hear their ring-tones ... yikes, what a world of difference. I definitely want to model my son's relationship with us on the husband's family/the abstract ideal, not on mine.

Your post actually really rang a bell with me: half of the conversation with my mom today was about how they'd sacrificed so much for me - immigrating before I was conceived! dad switching careers! mom going to childhood development classes, even! - and all I could think was, "... didn't realize it was quid pro quo." If I had, perhaps two-year-old me wouldn't have signed that contract in her own blood ....

I very much want to break the cycle. I'm trying to. But because I'm so used to the all-or-nothing thing, I'm stumped on how to establish an infrequent calling cycle with non-abusive conversations. I definitely plan to set the verbal boundaries and keep them (I did today, which makes me half relieved and half ashamed, 'cause it feels wrong to hang up on my 67 year old mother ... even if I had just told her I was seeing a shrink, and she had just responded by saying that was disgusting). But I worry about how to get it to be a healthy regular limited-contact thing, as opposed to an excuse for them to wail and gnash their teeth and indulge all their worst tendencies.

Also, thank you. The support is ... very reassuring. Very.

My parents have split, though they now get along much better than when they were married. We have weekly dinners with them, but the frequency with which we talk varies. Sometimes it's daily, sometimes it's more like once a week. I get a long really well wit my dad, at this point in my life he's more like a friend that a parent, and as a result we obviously talk more often. My mom drives me kinda crazy, and we talk probably half as much as I do with my dad.

Right now, we're talking more than usual, as my grandmother is going through a health crisis, and declining pretty rapidly. We are talking more frequently regarding her, and trying to support one another through a stressful time.

Manderz, I'm sorry to hear your grandmother is feeling poorly. I hope she recovers fully and quickly.

I see my mother and mother in law every other day. My mother lives in a nursing home, but I am her power of attorney. Because of her dementia, I have to see her very often or she gets agitated. I take her to all of her medical appointments. My husband and I share my mother in law with my brother in law and his wife. She lives with us part of the week. I also take her to all medical appointments, which is often. We are part of the sandwich generation with children still at home and responsibilites for our aging parents. I also work part time, but for my husband, so scheduling is easy, at least.

Ruby, could I ask ... how did you get power of attorney? Was it something you agreed on before-hand? The strife with my folks does nothing to assuage my concerns over their health. But insofar as I'm aware, there's also not much I can do: legally, if they want to kill themselves slowly, they can. It is very frustrating, when I hear them talk blithely about things like my mother's blood pressure falling to levels where she should be in an ER, to be unable to do anything.

It sounds like you are doing a lot for both of your parents. I think that's the ... ideal isn't the right word, exactly, because ideally we'd all be in the prime of health until we keeled over at the ripe old age of 108 while engaging in some happy, healthy activity like gardening. But I would love to be able to do something aside from acting as an emotional dumping ground.

Circe, it is ok to set boundaries. They gave you life, but they do not own you. I say the same about my child--I brought her into the world, but she doesn't BELONG to me. I am guiding her into becoming an independent human being who is a productive and positive member of society. That doesn't mean she owes me a damn thing. The last thing I want is for her to feel suffocated or imposed upon by me.

I have distanced myself from family members for various reasons, mostly for my own mental/emotional well-being. I do not feel guilty because I don't allow anyone to make me feel guilty about it.

ETA: you are not a bad daughter! A parent calling their child a traitor, or threatening to disown them ("you have no mother") is what I would consider abusive and if I were you I wouldn't want to speak to them anymore, either. I'm so sorry you've had to deal with this for so long. Maybe it's time to break the cycle?

Monarch is spot on. Circe, I know you've mentioned BPD before but I want to say that it is ALWAYS okay to set boundaries. I urge you to check out the book Emotional Blackmail or any of the applicable Susan Forward books.

As for how often I speak to my parents, it's different for each of them. My dad is not toxic and has a healthy relationship with my family, so we talk about once a week. My mother is extremely toxic and I haven't spoken to her in about a year after she pulled a truly horrific stunt with my 4 year old niece.

Kunzite, thank you for the recommendation - I'll look that up. I tried Stop Walking on Eggshells and just hit a wall - the writing style in a lot of the self-help books is really off-putting to me, so I'm constantly looking for something on this topic that won't make me grind my teeth. Setting boundaries is completely unnatural to me. I push back automatically, but articulating it makes me feel like I need bullet-proof justification (and, no, my own feelings are not enough). Jesus, no wonder it took me 6 1/2 years to break up with my first boyfriend ....

I'm sorry to hear about your mother - and I kind of shudder to ask, but (if you feel comfortable talking about it, otherwise just ignore me), what the hell did she pull with your niece? One of the only things that got me to start drawing boundaries was when I was pregnant and realized they would totally drive me into hysterics on a regular basis with no thought of how it might affect the fetus (I know, I know, probably not much, but since they get our chemicals ... that sounds unpleasant, to be swept with a load of adrenaline etc. when you're still figuring out how to grow eyelashes). And one of the only things getting me to carry it further now is the realization that every damn phone call leaves my hands shaking and puts me in a funk for the rest of the day. I ... would rather not pass that down as The Worstest Heirloom, somehow. A friend with a borderline grandmother pointing out that, inevitably, they'd be doing it to my kid in one way or another sooner of later just kind of sealed the deal ....

I voted for "some other variable"!

My father is an abusive alcoholic. I put up with watching him hurt my mother and having him hurt me (physically and emotionally). My earliest memories are of hiding with my stuffed animals hoping that he wouldn't hurt anyone tonight and hoping that the police wouldn't come again. Maybe if I was good enough it would be okay.
Needless to say, I got sick of this. He got in trouble for a serious crime. I tried to move on with our relationship when he got out of prison. It went okay for a bit -- and then he started drinking again.
I tried to call once a month or so but every call was miserable. He sat there doing nothing but criticizing my choices in life and accusing me of being a bad daughter for not calling more often.

I don't talk to him any more. Haven't since 2004.


My mother is tricky. We've had ups and downs through my whole life. She is an alcoholic also. That caused lots of bad things in life (who chooses to buy more beer when there isn't food for your kids?!?!). She did quit drinking for about 10 years. It took a lot of work, but we'd built a better relationship and spoke once a week or more often. She also finally decided to divorce her husband (not my father, the man she married after him) and started having some respect for herself.
And then she started drinking again.
She's now living with her ex-husband in his parents' house (with his parents) and letting herself be walked all over again.

We saw each other at Thanksgiving (hardly spoke at all) because my grandparents hosted. She did NOT come to my wedding in October. The last time we spoke was probably 2-3 months ago. Not looking promising for a call any time soon.


Life is too short to put up with manipulation and abuse. My father (and now quite possibly my mother) did and said things that were WAY over any reasonable line. I don't need that kind of crud in my life.

TooPatient, I am so, so, so sorry you had to grow up dealing with that. It is amazing what kind of a number parents can do on their kids. You sound very strong and sensible to have drawn your lines and kept to them. That's the kind of thing I'm trying to figure out how to accomplish. Thank you for sharing that. My folks are a different flavor of mean, but it seems like a lot of it still applies, 'cause you're right: life is too short.

I talked to my mom almost every day until several years ago. Dad mentioned once that I was using all mom's minutes on her phone to call and chat. Then we had an argument and didn't talk for a long time. After that, I'd call once a week. Then our son came and my parents pretty much disappeared. We rarely see them anymore. They stopped by the other night b/c they had 5 minutes to kill before they went to the movie. Or they'll stop by to drop off a bunch of grocery sacks for me, and it's in and out hi/bye. I see them about 15 minutes a month. I used to call and invite mom places but she always had to "ask" dad first if it was ok, and I'm just like whatever, it's not worth it. So I quit. We used to have them over once a week for supper and the casino is more important, so we quit. They come for Thanksgiving and Christmas, and dad will check his watch 100 times.

I'll add that since *I* only see my parents 15 minutes a month, that's all the attention my KIDS get too. THAT makes me mad, but whatever, that's their decision, I guess!

Packrat, that stinks. One wonders what on earth they could be thinking to miss out on time with a grand-baby. I would say that I hope they see the error of their ways soon, but given the impetus of my starting this thread, I'll amend that to, only if you want them to. Oy.

Does text count? I am constantly texting my mom and sisters, multiple times a day. Actually speaking on the phone, I would say at least once a month. I voted based on phone calls.

Texts totally count. Your relationship sounds healthy! I am glad to hear it can be done.

Am I being a bad daughter if I, a) politely refuse to listen to any more of the criticism and flatly tell them that if they start, I will be saying goodbye, and, b) take the phone calls down to once a week or less? Having been raised in a small family with a borderline disorder personality parent, I tend to be a little fuzzy on when it is and is not okay to draw boundaries.

I know I do not want to talk to them. At all. But I want to know what the baseline for being a responsible child to aging parents is, by normal-person standards.

.

You for sure need to set boundaries and the amount of phone calls you have with your parents are based on what YOU can put up with. Some are ok talking daily and others can barely handle once a year. You ABSOLUTELY have the right to tell them you don't want to hear the negativity/criticism, but there is a good chance they won't get the hint, so be prepared to hang up. It sounds like they're upsetting you to the point that the relationship is unhealthy for you. You can take charge though...and use your power as an adult to choose what is a more comfortable amount of frequency to speak w/them.

And, FWIW, I had to set boundaries w/my mom and she didn't like that at all and any time we try and reconnect, I end up having to step back b/c the exact same patterns emerge.

MC, thanks for saying that. One of the things I wonder is ... how do people set those boundaries? My parents are apparently not so much with the hints. The next time my mom starts in on one of her passive-aggressive "Oh, you just don't want to talk to us ... after all we did for you, you don't even love us ..." rants, I'm tempted to say, no, given the content, I do NOT want to talk to you more than once a week, but it feels ... oddly abrupt, I guess? Though given the increasing reluctance over the past years, perhaps less so than I think.

P.S. - I told my dad that about the negativity/criticism years ago (he used to be worse than my mother). He replied, with great indignation, Don't you want me to be honest? For the love of Mike, dad, NO!

I used to call my dad about once a month until a couple of weeks ago when he had a heart attack. Now the poor bloke is sick of me calling him. No doubt he will start ignoring me soon bless him.

Maisie, I'm sorry to hear of your dad's heart attack. I hope he's back to tip-tip shape soon!

One thing that worked for me was to have a set day for a phone call (Monday at night). Sometimes, it was a quick check in, sometimes, a long conversation. But having the set day helped my mother not stress and cut down on the "just checking up on you" phone calls that would drive me crazy. If I had something to do on Monday, I would send a text message and we would talk on Tuesday, so it wasn't written in stone and we all had some flexibility.

LD, this sounds IDEAL. I'll post the same question I asked a couple of times above ... how did you get her to agree to it? Did it just coalesce naturally ("Oh, mom, my only night off now is X, let's talk then ..."), or was it a more deliberate thing? I suspect it's probably a combination of the two, as well as your mom not being a clingy co-dependent like my parents are, but ... still, I hold out hope for a magic formula/thing I just haven't thought of yet because it is so blindingly obvious.

I talk to my parents anywhere from once a week to every day to multiple times a day. Just kind of depends. Most people in my family seem to talk to their parents/siblings at least once a week. My husband talks to my parents at least once every other week. He talks to HIS parents only on major holidays. I talk to his parents about once a year.

I wouldn't talk to my parents so much if I didn't genuinely like them as people. I know there are a bunch of families - my husband's, for instance - that only speak to each other because they're related. I truly feel that if I wasn't related to my parents and met them, we would be friends anyway. Probably wouldn't talk quite so much, but if they were my age rather than 35 years older, we'd definitely still speak every week. We have a lot of aimless conversations where we're just reading news articles we thought the other person would find interesting or saying "oh, go look at this funny youtube video!" and laughing on the phone. A lot of phone calls are simply talking about whatever silly things our pets got up to (my parents don't actually have pets, but they feed this stray cat and he's kind of like their pet). Usually talking to them at least once a week isn't a problem, but if I get really busy and forget to call, once a week or so goes by I start getting emails and texts asking if everything is alright, so I then feel the need to check in.

My husband and my dad talk to each other about cooking. They like to trade tips.

As far as I am aware, my parents talked to their parents on a similar schedule.

My husband's parents are always guilt-tripping him and often spend the phone call being generally not pleasant, so he tries to minimize contact. Keeping it to major holidays gives a ready-made topic of conversation so that they can't pry into other parts of our lives, and if he calls right before we have to be somewhere, there's a ready-made conversation ender as well.

ABSOLUTELY draw boundaries if the conversations are doing nothing but causing pain and stress. I don't think anyone is under obligation to subject themselves to that. If the relationship is toxic, do not keep it. And don't feel bad about it. At the end of the day, you are not responsible for your parents' emotional state or mental health. Set boundaries, make rules, and when they violate them, end the conversation and go X amount of time without talking to them until you recover (X should be a pretty clearly set amount of time communicated to them in advance). This is less for them than it is for you. They know the rules and if they choose to break them, they experience the consequences. And YOU know the rules and if they break them, you get time to step back and evaluate and implement the consequences without feeling bad because, well, they knew them in advance.

Distracts, thank you. First, for providing another model of healthy intra-familial relations, and second, for the bolded bit. That's something I'm still trying to wrap my mind around. I DO feel guilty when my mother tells me she cries every morning because of how I act. I may rationally be aware that it's because she's, a) in a depression she refuses to treat, and, b) being hella manipulative, but it doesn't stop me from feeling like I should accommodate her anyway, because no matter how you cut it, I'm less fragile. Problem is, "less" doesn't mean "impervious." Also, dammit, I'm trying to get better, which is all I would ever ask of anyone. It's when they continue to blame everybody but themselves for their circumstances that I start to get twitchy.

I didn't appreciate what I had until I moved over 4,000 miles away in my early 20's. I love and miss my parents. I'm particularly close to my mother but as my younger sister grows up and we start to have more in common I find that we talk a lot more as well. My parents are in poor health and I find it maddening to visit them because that means living with them for at least 10 days. My parents are both very overweight, don't take care of themselves, and don't have a good relationship so living with them even for a few days is hard. But the phone, I call as often as I think about it. some times it's once a day for several days in a row and sometimes we miss a couple of week. It probably averages out to about once a week for 90 minutes. If we miss a couple weeks it ends up as a 3 hour phone marathon with several hand-offs as people go the toilet or start to cook breakfast and lunch. I visit them about once to twice a year.

I'm sorry to hear that your parents are rather difficult, Circe. I can't imagine having those expectations and being spoken to that way as an adult.

Rhea, it sounds like you've got a family like my husband's - he emigrated in his early 20s thinking it was no big to fly home regularly, and it's gotten tougher with age. As his family is awesome and he likes to see them, and they him ... it's hard.

"Difficult" is a very diplomatic way of putting things re: my parents. I certainly don't appreciate it. The interesting/odd thing is that in just about every situation except a family situation, I'm a hard-ass. I've just apparently been trained not to kick too hard when it's family, because it'll just mean more drama. It worked when I loved them. Now, given the lack of love, not so much ... which certainly provides motivation to never let it get to that degree with anybody else.

Thanks, guys - that got more personal than I was planning (I really DID just want a baseline, and it sounds like with a few exceptions from very loving, close-knit families, once a week is perfectly normal). But, wow, was it cathartic to vent a little. Methinks this might be a good time to get a therapist ....

 

[Circe]

I talk to mine all the time, sometimes a few times a day, but this is a completely skewed example as we have terminal health crises going on. Even so, sometimes we get busy and go 2-4 days without speaking. Before the illness, we spoke maybe twice a week, but that was mainly because I'm so far away and got lonely. Under normal circs - i.e. living in the same country, an hour away - we'd probably talk once a week and visit every month or so.

Ugh, Circe, I'm so sorry you have this going on with your parents. Clearly, they're driving you nuts.

The stuff they say, and the invisible fishing wire they have you on the end of to make you call whenever they tug the line...it's all an illusion. They have no control over you - as the young, healthy adult you actually have a lot more control than them. It's them who'd be stuffed in old age if you cut them loose, not you. I wouldn't be surprised if the ultra-control was about fear. The fear that you could easily dump them and there'd be nothing they could do about it. Don't feel bad for going along with it - they are your parents and as kids we are programmed to need their love and approval, cause otherwise, you know, we'd starve.

All their nonsense? See if for what it is - utter bollocks. Oh, you'd be surprised how well they'd survive if you didn't call them for a while. This impression they give that the world will fall off its axis if you don't call - it's all a great big illusion. Their control over you is nothing more than the wizard of Oz behind the curtain making the illusion happen with the levers. They're like magicians who appear to be cutting someone in half when it's all mirrors. Your parents make out that to not hear from you cuts them in half, when they'll be just fine.

If you want to teach them that their nonsense has no effect on you but you don't want a great big confrontation that could get out of control, start training them, like controlled crying. The more wailing they do, the longer between calls. You'll soon find the calls get more civilised. And the minute they start, you get off that phone. They do not have to know the real reason why if you don't want to give them an excuse to fight - because sometimes, that's what people want. My sister would start on me during a phone conversation, and I trained her not to do it using Pavlovian methods. It's really simple - the minute they start, there's someone at the door, or the pot's boiling over, or - oh, shit! The plant's just blown off the ledge. Sometimes, I've rang my own front doorbell and said, "Oh, gotta go!"

The trick is that it must be super-swift. Like, a microsecond after they start. Sister: "I just don't think that your husband cares about the family." Me, ultra-breezy: "Oh, sorry N, there's someone at the door. Gotta go! We'll talk about it next time, OK? Bye!" And then of course you don't call back and you're unavailable for a while. Do this a few times and the message: "I'm not going to listen to your shit" will be heard loud and clear. That way, they don't get the satisfaction of an argument or of upsetting you so they can be negative about you and thus have their behaviour towards you justified in their mind - which is what they want.

After a few times of that, subconsciously it sinks in that negativity will get them a boring result - the end of the call, not the argument that they wanted.

And, if it's not that easy, when they start with their nonsense, another thing you could do is just laugh at them and change the subject. They need to see that their attempt at control has zero effect on you. Example:

"Circe, you haven't called in days! We were so worried about you. We couldn't sleep. We cancelled our dinner party. How could you do this to us?"

You: "I know, I know. I'm the worst daughter ever. I have no idea why you want me around! You were right to worry - this is my dead body talking to you. I'm now a ghost. Mwah hah haah! Anyway, how was your day?"

The point is, you need to get ultra-breezy and laugh it off. That way, they will KNOW they have no effect on you.

And, if they really start and will not be trained, you get Cruella firm and say in an even, clear, headmistressy voice, "Mom, I am not going to listen to this. Goodbye." And then no contact until they apologise. It'll be like a paradise vacation. And don't worry about never speaking to them again -that only happens where a ton of bad stuff has been said, whereas all you will have said is that you won't listen to their nonsense. That's not relationship-busting stuff, it's boundary-setting and they will come round. Might take a while if they're not used to it, but you hold all the cards.

I know all this is about a million times easier said than done. I think the stress that some parents put their adult kids through is just criminal. And don't even get me started on how it's usually daughters who get it in the neck with the expectations and the invisible string aimed at keeping you a controlled baby while sons are let right off that hook...Bah, humbug.

Smith, THANK you. We cross-posted, so I saw this after I put up the mondo-response, but this is exactly the kind of thing I need to hear. I've been doing the first two for a while, with little-to-no effect, and I've just entered phase three, to much wailing and gnashing of the teeth, and it really DOES feel like it's all-or-nothing: either I cave and apologize and go back to miserably talking to them on a regular basis, or I'm an orphan.

There has to be an in-between where my kid gets to know his grandparents but I'm not quietly wishing for a nice Ambien cocktail every time they call. Right?

 

[VRBeauty]

I talk to my mother about twice a week. Unfortunately I've never really learned how to talk to my father - he's the silent type, my mother is anything but, and we all fell into the pattern of communicating through Mom years ago. Now that my father's pretty much deaf that makes more sense too. There have been periods in my life when it was difficult for me to talk with my mother - it seemed like she went on and on about any and everything - and I would just sort of hold the receiver away from my ear and say uh-huh from time to time. Those days are long gone however. My mother is mellowing in her old age and respecting boundaries more (although she does gripe about how she's "Not allowed" to give us advice anymore - LOL). She's seeing me more as an equal in ways, and relying more on me and my younger brothers to help out with medical situations. We're dealing with two family medical crises now, including her treatment for colon cancer, so I'm grateful that the rifts were worked out before all this stuff hit.

Circe - as others have said, you don't have to put up with that kind of carp so please don't let your parents guilt-trip you into it. I grew up with the mantra that questioning my parents was a bad thing and disobeying God to boot, so the notion of challenging my parents did not come easily to any of us. I also realized that my mother lost both her parents, and my father lost his father, while my parents were still children or very young adults. In other words, they never had to go through this differentiation and had no way to understand how difficult it could be. But I digress. You do not have to put up with behavior that's disrespectful to you, your family, or your time; not even from your parents.

I used to date someone who had put his mother on a phone call budget. She was allowed three calls per week. He kept track on a calendar, and if she exceeded her allotment he could simply say "Sorry - I'll talk with you next week." I'm sure it was difficult to get this started but it seemed to be working when I was with him!

ETA - as to how you start something like that... I think you sit down and write a a little speech that you can read to her... or you can mail her a letter. "I've found that most of our phone conversations are very negative/distressing/pointless so I (or hubby and I) have decided that I will not accept more than X phone calls from the two of you each week, and I do reserve right to discontinue any phone call that gets unnecessarily unpleasant. If you call me more than X times in one week I will hang up." That's the bones - you can shade and soften from there.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

MC, thanks for saying that. One of the things I wonder is ... how do people set those boundaries? My parents are apparently not so much with the hints. The next time my mom starts in on one of her passive-aggressive "Oh, you just don't want to talk to us ... after all we did for you, you don't even love us ..." rants, I'm tempted to say, no, given the content, I do NOT want to talk to you more than once a week, but it feels ... oddly abrupt, I guess? Though given the increasing reluctance over the past years, perhaps less so than I think.

P.S. - I told my dad that about the negativity/criticism years ago (he used to be worse than my mother). He replied, with great indignation, Don't you want me to be honest? For the love of Mike, dad, NO!

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What do you say to your mom when she starts a passive-aggressive guilt trip? Obviously I'm not an expert on people or I'd not have that management thread , but one thing you can do is NEVER say "sorry" in response to those comments. If you're saying, "sorry mom, but such and such happened and I couldn't return your call," then you're shifting the power to her and that keeps her in control and you at her mercy, you know? Only use the word sorry if it's appropriate, like you broke someone's favorite vase or whatever. Never apologize for acting in a rational way if you're parents are putting you on the spot because they're trying to break you down (even if it's subconscious).

I haven't had chance to read all your responses, so I don't know if this has been addressed, but is the underlying issue about guilt or feeling guilty or them making you feel guilty? If that is the case, do some googling on when it's okay to say no and read about how to empower yourself with that word. That is what helped me A LOT b/c I kept running into situations where people asked me to do stuff and I'd say yes b/c I felt I had to and I'd always say sorry, etc. I might be projecting my issues onto you, so if so, then explain more about what you feel and how you think your parents are trying to make you feel.

And, with the criticism, you're in a situation where you're either having to defend yourself or let them take power. One of the funniest things I did to my mom is she accused me of a specific behavioral trait and by that point I had realized she was emotionally abusive, so when she told me my negative personality trait, I said, "Well, if I'm that way, it's because YOU raised me to be that way!" I was in my early 20s when I said that, so obviously it was a youthful thing to say, but it sure shut her up! She looked horrified. lol

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Methinks this might be a good time to get a therapist ....

Before you take the therapist step, google like a maniac all things about how to deal with toxic relationships, how to deal with guilt trippers, and how to say no. It will give perspective on what a person should be expected to put up with and what is crossing the line. Don't over-apply it though or you'll find everyone is doing it left and right! Most are kind of moochy & self centered IF you start to look for those traits.

 

[SB621]

Oh TP I can't imagine what you went through as a child. I"m so sorry! Hugs honey!!!

I talk to my parents 1x a week and that is only because they call. I probably call 1x every 6-8 weeks. We never talk for more then 5 minutes. My parents weren't bad ppl growing up. Certainly not abusive in any way, but they were just never there. I never remember growing up and feeling loved or cherished by my parents. They are both not affectionate at all. There was a lot of fighting the teenager years, both my parents worked, and failed horrible at money management which brought down lots of stress on me when I was younger. I waited tables to help pay my own parents bills. They made lots of irresponsible decisions that even I at 13,14 15 years old etc knew were bad choices.

Anyhow probably for 10 years we barely talked. Mabye 3-4x a year. Then when I had children they decided they wanted to be involved in my life again. Doesn't really mean much. They send the kids toys for b-day and holidays. They don't call to talk to them on the phone. They seem them 3-4 times a year where we all sit at the couch and watch tv (both my parents health has gone downhill in the last few years so they aren't very mobile)- there is no engagment what so ever. Once again there is still no emotional connection, it feels like we are just going through the phases. Anyhow with our upcoming move to Europe it takes a lot of pressure off me and trying to have a relationship with them. The distance is a natural barrier. My other 2 siblings are local so they visit more often with my parents (who pretty much still support them). I'm much more comfortable keeping my distance.