Hmm... interesting situation. Thoughts?

[Gypsy]

So, one of my nieces is married to a man who has a child with an ex-GF and they (neice and hubby) have custody because the mother was (correctly) judged unfit. I very much admire my niece and her hubby for the way they fought for the child and are raising him.

So now one of my OTHER nieces is RE-involved with a man (and it seems to be serious) who has never wanted children (neither does she), they were together for a while and he went away for school and they broke up because neither wanted a long distance relationship. He's been back for a few months and they have decided that they are uninterested in other people and want to start a life together. Great. Well, he just found out that a woman he had a short fling right around graduation is pregnant and she wants him back (even though there was no relationship except in her head, according to him) and is using the child and her pregnancy to keep in touch with him (sent him ultrasounds, etc.) even though he swears they used condoms that never broke. He was blindsided and is still not convinced the child could even be his. He is torn because IF it is his he never wanted kids and is being forced by this woman to have one (she's approaching the point at which you can't have an abortion anymore).

My niece is upset, obviously, and angry for him. But she also very much believes that if you have a child you should be a parent, not a bank account, etc (which is why she doesn't want them, plus she was abandoned by her dad, even though her brother wasn't). And she sounds like she thinks that the family will judge her guy harshly if they find out he doesn't want to be a dad, considering the comparison to her cousin's husband (who is a great dad despite not having wanted his child).

But the two of them can't force the other woman to have an abortion. But she CAN force him to be a father. And she apparently isn't interested in his opinion and she's SURE that eventually she and her baby are going to break my niece and her guy up, and that she'll get him.

It's very screwed up. Obviously their first step is a paternity test (again the guy swears it they used condoms )

Do you think he should just man up and accept responsibility for a child he doesn't and has never wanted. With a woman who he has never had feelings for.

I'm going through some personal crap right now, and just have no idea what to think. On the one hand... he had sex with her, protected or not, and there are consequences and he has a responsibility. But if he was the woman in the relationship, he would have been able to make the choice to have a child or not. That choice is not his and is being forced on him and I don't think that's right either. But the kid is innocent and...

I'll handle what I think she should do. Because there are other factors and I don't want to go into them. But I am wondering what HE should do, in your opinion. Because I don't know what I think about that. And she wants her WISE (roflmao) aunt's advice on that.

Anyway... wisdom oh PSers, please?

 

[movie zombie]

first, sorry you are also going through personal stuff right now.

no, he doesn't get a say in whether or not she has an abortion. he could say he wants her to have one....what then? she is taken by force to have one? no, i don't think so. unfortunately, there is always a price to be paid for decisions. in this case he jumped into bed with a woman he had no interest in.

obviouisly, he needs to get the paternity test done and done sooner rather than later. if he's not the father and can prove it she goes away. no problems for your niece. if he is the father then he has to at the minimum pay up each and every month up until at least age 18. it is his choice, not your niece's, as to whether he will be an involved parent or merely a source of $. if he doesn't want to be one, well, no one can force him to do so. and the kid will always pick up that he doesn't want to be a parent......

not until the paternity test is done can anyone make any decisions. if he is the father and doesn't want to parent but this goes against your niece's values, well, she may have to walk away from the relationship. as regards what the family thinks, well, she can't control that either and what worked for the other niece would not work for a lot of people. she can't live her life based on being compared to the other niece. and she may have to tell the family that.

take care of yourself, gypsy.

 

[JewelFreak]

Sad situation -- mostly for the child. Sounds like the mother has motives other than nurturing for having the baby, added to disinterest from the possible father.

MoZo's right. Actions have consequences. He needs to get a paternity test yesterday. (If she's really pregnant -- there's always that possibility too.)

Then, if there is a baby & it's his, do some very hard thinking -- both him & your niece. About what's best for the child, who's the innocent party in this. He must do the monetary right thing without question. Which is better from the kid's point of view: a sometimes-present dad who finds the relationship a burden (it will come across & the child will somehow blame himself), or an absent biological parent who provides required material support? He should be aware that in both cases the mother is likely to badmouth him to the child.

Talking it out with a counselor or bioethicist might help clarify thinking. (Once he sees his baby, he could do a 180 on fatherhood.)

They need to make this decision for themselves. The family's opinion is irrelevant. I think worrying about their comparing to the other niece is downright immature. Once made, explain calmly to the niece's parents, if she wishes, and then get on with their lives. How they handle a tough situation is no one else's business.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Agree with the other ladies. He needs to determine if he is the father. And if he is, he has a financial obligation. It is up to him and him alone if he desires any relationship with the child. But to me, it needs to be all or nothing. He needs to embrace and adore that child or he needs to be distant and provide money only. I think it will be more detrimental to the child for him to be a reluctant part-time father. Kids are smart and can know when someone doesn't really want them. I feel sorry for your niece, but it is not her decision just as it is not the pregnant woman's decision. He has a legal financial obligation to the child which is a consequence of his actions. (Come on guy..since when does anyone think condoms are 100% protection?!). But you cannot make a man love and want a child. That comes from his heart. I do agree that his feelings might change once he sees the baby. But I think it will also complicate things for the niece if he does bring the child into his life because then the other woman will be a constant intruder in their relationship as well. No easy answers. Wish people were more responsible before getting into these situations. The child is always the one who suffers because of it.

 

[Jennifer W]

Wow. I'm sorry for all involved in this difficult situation.

Honestly? If it was me, I'd gently suggest that I didn't have the experience to offer counsel on this one, and that the issues would be best explored under the guidance of a good therapist. I wouldn't even hint at what I thought here.

 

[ame]

If I was him, I would do NOTHING until that paternity test--administered with lawyers present--is done and proves whether the child is or is not his. Once the paternity is settled, go from there. No sense in even bothering with any emotion until he knows for sure. But I do agree that if it IS his, he should be a parent, whether or not he saw his life involving a kid or not.

Weird anecdote: I used to work with a guy(who was a raging doucher, I might add) whose girlfriend was SO desperate to be with him and not be dumped by him for her RIDICULOUS desperation (oh my god was she insane, and why she wanted HIM makes no sense but I digress) that she went off birth control without discussing with him, poked holes in all the condoms she found in his house, in his wallet and the ones she had at her place, and her little plan worked. By the time he figured out what had happened--one of her friends blurted it out while drunk--the child was nearly here. He wanted to end that relationship because he was played, essentially, but because that baby was iminent, he stayed. They ended up getting engaged the day her water broke, and married about 6 months after the baby came, and actually seem to have a very strong and happy marriage despite her little game, and I know there was a LOT of counseling though--I think parenthood helped a little on the doucheyness, though maybe that's wishful.

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

Sex is an action; pregnancy is a consequence of this action. You may choose your actions, but not necessarily its consequences. He had the right to decide to be a parent or not when he was making the decision about whom to sleep with. period. Yes, the woman gets one more decision than the man in the case of whether or not to have an abortion, but hey, women also have to deal with a lot of other consequences associated with pregnancy, so... life's not fair, we don't all get the same number of choices, get over it. (That is not directed at YOU, Gypsy, just anyone who complains about life not being "fair" in general)

Now, (if the baby is actually his), he will have the right to decide to what extent he will be a parent.

I believe each state has its own rules, so he should definitely look into the laws where he lives.

Here's a document for the state of Texas, as an example, that I find pretty informative and easy to understand: https://www.oag.state.tx.us/ag_publications/pdfs/qa_ncp.pdf

a very interesting tidbit - In Texas, both unmarried parents must agree on paternity and willfully sign the paternity form - she can't just put his name on the birth certificate and then demand child support. However, a parent (mother or father) can open a case and get a court order for paternity testing to establish legal fatherhood. Your niece's boyfriend must appear in court if he is summoned, or risk getting royally screwed.

If you receive a court summons, you must
appear in court or paternity may be established with-
out you. The court can also set child support, medical
support, custody and visitation whether or not you are
actually present. If you cannot appear in court, contact
the court or child support office handling your case and
ask how to file a response with the court.
Some people think if they don’t show up and don’t get a
genetic (DNA) test, nothing will happen. That is not true.
The court can make a paternity decision without a genetic
(DNA) test.

Anyway, I'm sorry you are going through a rought time, Gypsy. You are always so helpful to ANYONE on PS who is seeking help or advice, so I know your instinct is to help your niece as best you can. In this case, though, maybe that just means listening without offering advice. Best of luck to you and your family.

 

[maplefemme]

That's really unfortunate, Gypsy, sorry to hear...
I agree with everyone else, he needs to get a paternity test before deciding anything.
I don't feel that he's being "forced" into Fatherhood, if he firmly never wanted children then it's been well within his power to make prior choices to avoid it, he could have gotten a vasectomy, but he's chosen to still take the risk in getting somebody pregnant and he is accountable for his actions and choices.
Condoms have a significant failure rate and he took a gamble with a casual encounter.
Hopefully the baby isn't his, for everyone's sake...

 

[Lady_Disdain]

What a horrible situation!

I won't go into the abortion possibility, since my opinions on the subject are quite complex and not very mainstream.

But I do think he should get a paternity test ASAP. If the child is his, then I do think he has a moral obligation to be a father, even if his only legal obligation is to be an ATM. I sympathize with his situation, since I also have no wish to have a child, but there are consequences to actions and the child is the innocent party and deserves an active father.

This doesn't mean that he has to have anything more than a good working relationship with the mother. By that, I mean that they shouldn't bad mouth each other to the child, should be able to communicate well and make joint decisions for the child's well fare (schooling, discipline, religious education, etc). This doesn't imply in being chummy or getting back together at all! A good counselor will probably help a lot in the beginning, specially to set boundaries and in keeping private feelings out of childcare conversations.

 

[Mrsacornblue]

I feel very badly for all the parties involved, especially the unborn child.

I agree tha the first step should be a paternity test.

I do think that this is between the man and the other woman. I respectfully think your neice should stay out of it...if her moral/ethical feelings do not allow her to do so and she feels that she must force this man to potentially be the father he does not want to be, she should place some distance between herself and him. If this man is determined to be the father, he does at the very least have a financial obligation to this child. I don't think that he necessarily has an obligation to be a father if he never wanted children in the first place. Forcing this issue may not bring about the desired relationship between father and son and could backfire. Being a father is not something that should be forced...the child will know that he was not wanted and this can be the source of lifelong problems.

 

[Gypsy]

I may well decline to advise and choose to refer the matter to a therapist AND a family lawyer and perhaps a private investigator.

Here is where I am at:

I did 5 minutes of research and it seems that even though paternity tests can be conducted as early as 10 weeks, there's pretty much no way to compel a woman to take a pregnancy test ever in civil matters like this OR to submit to a paternity test until child is born. So I can tell her this.

And apparently (the things you can find on google) there are ways to make sure you get false positives on pregnancy tests so short of having doctors and lawyers involved you won't know if the woman is pregnant unless she starts to show and then pops a baby out. Since she's in a different state I can suggest the private investigator as an option to find out at 7-8 months if she is showing, shopping for baby stuff, etc.

That' leaves their (my nieces) relationship in limbo until a paternity test, etc. That means therapy. Or... breaking up.

So... And then if there is a child born, then at that stage a paternity test can be ordered. And that gives him plenty of time to stress. And yes, maybe he will change his mind once he sees the child. Something I need to tell my niece and make sure she understands.

As for court ordered for child support, paternity claims the woman could make, etc. I will let them know that a good lawyer will be able to tell them what the laws of the state she is in are, and that they will be bound by those. I don't know if the girls is local to the where the school is, or if her family is from a different state. So those details will need to addressed with her, and preferrably through lawyers.

I will also tell her to not worry about comparisons to others, that she has enough on her plate without borrowing more.

What a flipping mess. I feel sorry for the kid too. I don't see a good outcome for the child if the woman really is doing this out of the some desire other than truly wanting to be a mother. Maybe motherhood will change her though and she'll grow to love her child and do what is best for it.

 

[movie zombie]

seems to me you've got the bases covered very well, gypsy. i wish your niece a lot of luck with this one.

 

[Gypsy]

seems to me you've got the bases covered very well, gypsy. i wish your niece a lot of luck with this one.

You guys are always such a great help in getting me to organize my thoughts. When I have a sounding board I can figure things out okay. But when I am hit with something it's just a swirl of chaos in my head and I have no clue where to start.

Thanks all, very much.

 

[Imdanny]

Sex is an action; pregnancy is a consequence of this action.

Yes, I agree. Of course, condoms are not fail safe, and he and this lady took a risk, however reasonable, however small. I think he, or anyone, should see it that way and accept the fact of it. He took a risk, a risk of pregnancy by having sex, and a risk that this lady might not want an abortion. He certainly has no right to make her and if they have a child, yes, that's the risk he did take.

I get the impression from your post that this lady likes a lot of drama. I agree with everyone else re: proof. My first impression, to be honest, is that since he says she means nothing to him, maybe he should deal with her through lawyers, the court, labs, etc. and cease personal communication such as this lady sending him ultrasound pictures.

It seems to me that he can decide to be a father if and only if he is the father, and be responsible for his own choice of not having anything other than a professional-type relationship with this lady. It seems to me that he can do both of those things without compromising his integrity and without giving your niece any cause to be disturbed by what sounds like this lady's desire that all three live in some kind of soap opera.

It's difficult to comment naturally after only reading a post and I hope I don't sound presumptuous. It just seems to me from what little I've read that this lady is trying to put an emotional trip on him and her, and maybe if he sees this, he can cut that whole drama piece out of the picture so that your niece doesn't have to be subjected to it.

I'm sorry but I haven't been able to read all of the posts in this thread. But this is what I wanted to saywhen I first read your post. I've been thinking about it since I read it. I'm sending you and your family my best wishes. Hugs.

 

[movie zombie]

[quote="Imdanny|1321406617|3062558........ to be honest, is that since he says she means nothing to him, maybe he should deal with her through lawyers, the court, labs, etc. and cease personal communication such as this lady sending him ultrasound pictures......[/quote]


gypsy, this is a very good point. perhaps add it to your conversation with your niece?

 

[Gypsy]

Danny that was excellent. From what I know about the other woman she seems unstable. And I mean "SEEMS" not "sounds"... my niece has sent me texts and emails and stuff written by her and she really is scary-- saying she hates him and doesn't HATES that any part of him inside her, one second. Then in a text 2 minutes later saying that she cares for him and wants more than "two pictures" from their time together so her baby "can know" him. Then threatening to come to where he lives (states away) so she can see him and asking for his address. Calling his ex-roommates for his address, etc. Calling his job (she knows where he works) claiming and emergency saying he is harmed and she doesn't know which counties 911 to call and asking for his address.

He's changed his phone number already. He was actually going to get a restraining order before this, and now he's completely blindsided. I told my niece that I would still get a restraining order.

I'm worried aboutmy niece too and so is HE. He made her buy mace and showed her the picture of the girl just so she knows who to watch out for.

I do hope that motherhood or one of her family members can knock some sense into her.

MZ I agree.

 

[Missy]

Terrible situation for them to be in Gypsy. Unfortunately if it turns out that your niece's FI is the father they will have to deal with this crazy woman for a long time. Whether or not he wants to he will have an undeniable connection to this woman if it turns out he is the father of her unborn child. So sorry for the situation he and your niece may be in and hope it all works out.

 

[QueenB29]

I feel sorry for that baby. A crazy mom and a dad who doesn't want him/her

 

[AGBF]

I feel sorry for that baby. A crazy mom and a dad who doesn't want him/her

If the "crazy mom" who is too late for an abortion can be counselled into giving up the baby for adoption, the baby has a chance to have a stable home with a loving mother and father for life! (Or a family with another combination of loving parents who have been certified as sane via homestudy.)

Deb, mom to a daughter who happened to have entered the family via adoption

 

[Loves Vintage]

Of course, there is also the possibility that he lied about using condoms. How well does she know this guy? Does she trust him? Should she? These are questions I would be asking my niece. I wouldn't simply accept his story.

As for the woman, based on the e-mails/texts, she sounds desperate and panicky. She is pregnant and being ignored by the father of her child. She is young, too. I feel bad for her. I hope she has a support system in place.

 

[QueenB29]

I feel sorry for that baby. A crazy mom and a dad who doesn't want him/her

If the "crazy mom" who is too late for an abortion can be counselled into giving up the baby for adoption, the baby has a chance to have a stable home with a loving mother and father for life! (Or a family with another combination of loving parents who have been certified as sane via homestudy.)

Deb, mom to a daughter who happened to have entered the family via adoption

I'm with you AGBF. Adoption is a wonderful thing! It just doesn't sound like the girl in question is at all leaning that way.....

 

[Gypsy]

I'm sure about the condoms as it was in one of texts.