Haitian orphan rant ...

[VRBeauty]

Date: 2/5/2010 12:58:24 PM
Author: janinegirly

However I also do not agree with the blanket statement that Haiti is in the predicament it has been due to European imperialism--you cannot ignore history but each nation must also accept accountability for present conditions particularly in cases where they have been self-ruled for sometime (with extensive aid from the US).

Let''s not forget almost thirty years under a dictatorial regime -- which was toppled by a popular uprising. The current democracy in Haiti is less than 30 years old. The Haitian people have tried and I''m sure they would have -- and will -- continue to try to improve their country. While it may not be fair to blame their current state solely on "European imperialism," I''m sure it is a factor: Haiti is just one of many countries that have struggled to regain their footing after the departure of countries that colonized them.

Being an eternal optimist, I''m hopeful that this earthquake will lead to some fundamental changes within the country.

 

[y2kitty]

Taking children to a country where they have no legal standing is not doing them any favors. I don''t know that much about the situation but if they were taking them to the US without residency worked out with the US government then I am even more opposed to what they did.

 

[waterlilly]

Date: 2/5/2010 9:21:43 AM
Author: meresal
Mrs Mitchell, you kind of touched on another aspect that crossed my mind last night after climbing into bed...


Let say the American''s did get these children into the DR. Where were they going? Did they already have an agency lined up? Which would be ever more incriminating. If they didn''t have an agency lined up, and maybe it doesn''t work like here in the US, but what adoption agency is going to take on 33 children with no papers? How can these American''s promise that they will have a better life in the DR? Just because it isn''t Haiti?


I was watching the news this morning and now one of the lawyers is saying that 9 or 10 of the American''s didn''t ''realize'' what they had agreed to by going into Haiti. Whether that is believable is to be told. I''m a bit of a conspiracy theorist when it comes to certain situations, but I still believe that this whole was planned before even leaving the states. Mayeb not the kids that they were going to take, but I have a feeling that at least a bit of that missionary group was traveling to Haiti to ''help'' children escape.

I believe they were moving them to another orphanage in the DR, no plans on taking them off the island. What about the fact that the parents of the children WILLINGLY gave them to the missionaries in hopes that they would be going to a safer place?

I''m not siding either way because I don''t think all the facts are out there. I just imagine that if you were volunteering in Haiti and in the middle of all the death and despair - you might be driven to do such a thing for a small child that was in danger - if they had no home, no food, no water, living in an unstable and dangerous makeshift tent and their parents told you to please take them to an orphanage you KNEW was safe - you wouldn''t try? I have no idea what I would do in that situation.

 

[waterlilly]

Date: 2/4/2010 7:24:07 PM
Author: kenny
I''m sure they meant well but regardless of how appalling the conditions are, rules and proper procedures must be followed.

So, if a civil war was raging, you wouldn''t advocate moving kids out of there until the proper paperwork was signed? I don''t know about you - but to me, the pictures being shown of living conditions are just about as bad as it gets. Unsafe, unruly, unhealthy, you name it.

 

[meresal]

Date: 2/5/2010 3:09:37 PM
Author: waterlilly

Date: 2/5/2010 9:21:43 AM
Author: meresal
Mrs Mitchell, you kind of touched on another aspect that crossed my mind last night after climbing into bed...


Let say the American's did get these children into the DR. Where were they going? Did they already have an agency lined up? Which would be ever more incriminating. If they didn't have an agency lined up, and maybe it doesn't work like here in the US, but what adoption agency is going to take on 33 children with no papers? How can these American's promise that they will have a better life in the DR? Just because it isn't Haiti?


I was watching the news this morning and now one of the lawyers is saying that 9 or 10 of the American's didn't 'realize' what they had agreed to by going into Haiti. Whether that is believable is to be told. I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist when it comes to certain situations, but I still believe that this whole was planned before even leaving the states. Mayeb not the kids that they were going to take, but I have a feeling that at least a bit of that missionary group was traveling to Haiti to 'help' children escape.

I believe they were moving them to another orphanage in the DR, no plans on taking them off the island. What about the fact that the parents of the children WILLINGLY gave them to the missionaries in hopes that they would be going to a safer place?

I'm not siding either way because I don't think all the facts are out there. I just imagine that if you were volunteering in Haiti and in the middle of all the death and despair - you might be driven to do such a thing for a small child that was in danger - if they had no home, no food, no water, living in an unstable and dangerous makeshift tent and their parents told you to please take them to an orphanage you KNEW was safe - you wouldn't try? I have no idea what I would do in that situation.

I can 100% say I would not. I also wouldn't put myself in that position in the first place. I'm not trying to be humanitarian of the year, especially if it means breaking the law and being in a foreign jail for who knows how long. I just don't believe that it is my right to go into another country and go around doing things liek I know what is best for these people.

If I had food and water, I would give it to them, just as I volunteer and do here in the US. But If I can't help to improve a person's current living situation, it is not my right to take them where I think they will be better.

I have never stopped on the side of the road here in the states to take a homeless child away from their family, so what would lead me to do it in another country, where I KNOW it is illegal. (Taking a child, who is not your own, from one country to another, is illegal no matter where you are. THAT is common sense. I don't believe anyone who says that they weren't aware the children needed papers to leave the country.)

I would still like to know how the American's found these children and these families that were so willing to give up their children. I have a hard time understanding that 15 missionaries went walking into one of the tent villages in the middle of the town. The journalists that are there don't even look comfortable around those parts.

 

[meresal]

Date: 2/5/2010 3:13:32 PM
Author: waterlilly

Date: 2/4/2010 7:24:07 PM
Author: kenny
I''m sure they meant well but regardless of how appalling the conditions are, rules and proper procedures must be followed.

So, if a civil war was raging, you wouldn''t advocate moving kids out of there until the proper paperwork was signed? I don''t know about you - but to me, the pictures being shown of living conditions are just about as bad as it gets. Unsafe, unruly, unhealthy, you name it.

This is not an arguement of what people would LIKE to do, it is what is LEGAL. They broke the law, they will more than likely be prosecuted.

 

[purrfectpear]

Date: 2/5/2010 3:33:26 PM
Author: meresal
I can 100% say I would not. I also wouldn''t put myself in that position in the first place. I''m not trying to be humanitarian of the year, especially if it means breaking the law and being in a foreign jail for who knows how long. I just don''t believe that it is my right to go into another country and go around doing things liek I know what is best for these people.

If I had food and water, I would give it to them, just as I volunteer and do here in the US. But If I can''t help to improve a person''s current living situation, it is not my right to take them where I think they will be better.

I have never stopped on the side of the road here in the states to take a homeless child away from their family, so what would lead me to do it in another country, where I KNOW it is illegal. (Taking a child, who is not your own, from one country to another, is illegal no matter where you are. THAT is common sense. I don''t believe anyone who says that they weren''t aware the children needed papers to leave the country.)

I would still like to know how the American''s found these children and these families that were so willing to give up their children. I have a hard time understanding that 15 missionaries went walking into one of the tent villages in the middle of the town. The journalists that are there don''t even look comfortable around those parts.

Exactly. I might provide some shelter if I could within the law, and I''d certainly share food & water. If there really WERE parents trying to convince me to save their children strictly because they themselves couldn''t afford to provide for them, I would GIVE THE PARENTS MONEY SO THE FAMILY WOULD NOT HAVE TO BE SEPARATED.

If things are so bad in Haiti and cost of living is consequently so low, then a few hundred dollars should keep the whole family together for at least a few months.

 

[waterlilly]

Date: 2/5/2010 3:40:14 PM
Author: meresal

Date: 2/5/2010 3:13:32 PM

Author: waterlilly

Date: 2/4/2010 7:24:07 PM

Author: kenny

I''m sure they meant well but regardless of how appalling the conditions are, rules and proper procedures must be followed.

So, if a civil war was raging, you wouldn''t advocate moving kids out of there until the proper paperwork was signed? I don''t know about you - but to me, the pictures being shown of living conditions are just about as bad as it gets. Unsafe, unruly, unhealthy, you name it.

This is not an arguement of what people would LIKE to do, it is what is LEGAL. They broke the law, they will more than likely be prosecuted.

Understood. Like I said, I''m not on either side yet, just throwing out other views/arguments I''ve heard - for the sake of discussion. I personally don''t know what I would do. Money - not sure how much use money is if there aren''t stores to spend it in. Look, unless you''ve ever volunteered in a disaster, you really can''t understand what the desperation of this particular situation may have been.

I don''t know what laws were broken if the parents gave them permission, are still standing by the fact that they gave them permission. If I was taking a friend''s child on a trip from the US to Canada - would it be illegal? I don''t know the answer to this, how does that work, an adult traveling with a child that is not their own - is it allowed?

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Date: 2/5/2010 4:22:35 PM
Author: waterlilly

Date: 2/5/2010 3:40:14 PM
Author: meresal

Date: 2/5/2010 3:13:32 PM

Author: waterlilly

Date: 2/4/2010 7:24:07 PM

Author: kenny

I'm sure they meant well but regardless of how appalling the conditions are, rules and proper procedures must be followed.

So, if a civil war was raging, you wouldn't advocate moving kids out of there until the proper paperwork was signed? I don't know about you - but to me, the pictures being shown of living conditions are just about as bad as it gets. Unsafe, unruly, unhealthy, you name it.

This is not an arguement of what people would LIKE to do, it is what is LEGAL. They broke the law, they will more than likely be prosecuted.

Understood. Like I said, I'm not on either side yet, just throwing out other views/arguments I've heard - for the sake of discussion. I personally don't know what I would do. Money - not sure how much use money is if there aren't stores to spend it in. Look, unless you've ever volunteered in a disaster, you really can't understand what the desperation of this particular situation may have been.

I don't know what laws were broken if the parents gave them permission, are still standing by the fact that they gave them permission. If I was taking a friend's child on a trip from the US to Canada - would it be illegal? I don't know the answer to this, how does that work, an adult traveling with a child that is not their own - is it allowed?

It is not allowed if the intention is to take parental rights over the child or place a child in an illegal adoption or fostering placement.
Freeing for adoption requires a a legal process behind it beyond just the consent of the child's parents in most countries. The relevant law in the destination country will also apply

 

[waterlilly]

Date: 2/5/2010 4:28:25 PM
Author: Mrs Mitchell

Date: 2/5/2010 4:22:35 PM

Author: waterlilly

Date: 2/5/2010 3:40:14 PM

Author: meresal

Date: 2/5/2010 3:13:32 PM


Author: waterlilly

Date: 2/4/2010 7:24:07 PM


Author: kenny


I'm sure they meant well but regardless of how appalling the conditions are, rules and proper procedures must be followed.

So, if a civil war was raging, you wouldn't advocate moving kids out of there until the proper paperwork was signed? I don't know about you - but to me, the pictures being shown of living conditions are just about as bad as it gets. Unsafe, unruly, unhealthy, you name it.

This is not an arguement of what people would LIKE to do, it is what is LEGAL. They broke the law, they will more than likely be prosecuted.

Understood. Like I said, I'm not on either side yet, just throwing out other views/arguments I've heard - for the sake of discussion. I personally don't know what I would do. Money - not sure how much use money is if there aren't stores to spend it in. Look, unless you've ever volunteered in a disaster, you really can't understand what the desperation of this particular situation may have been.


I don't know what laws were broken if the parents gave them permission, are still standing by the fact that they gave them permission. If I was taking a friend's child on a trip from the US to Canada - would it be illegal? I don't know the answer to this, how does that work, an adult traveling with a child that is not their own - is it allowed?

It is not allowed if the intention is to take parental rights over the child or place a child in an illegal adoption or fostering placement.

Freeing for adoption requires a a legal process behind it beyond just the consent of the child's parents in most countries. The relevant law in the destination country will also apply

Did the missionaries say they were going to be adopting these children out? I thought they were just bringing them to the orphanage as a safe place to care for the children.

Absolutely, I would not agree with them being adopted out...I didn't think that was the plan though. Unless something like that were to be attempted, I'm still not sure what laws they broke if the parents are saying they had permission.

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

The BBC news reports I''ve seen stated that they planned to take them to the US. Also, they did not have the permission of all the children''s parents, as some were not located. I''m taking this from BBC news, as I say. It''s hard to know exactly what was going on, but that''s my understanding of the situation.

 

[meresal]

Waterlilly- I went to Mexico with a friend's family when I was 17, and from what I remember the cruise ship required that my parents sign a letter and have it notarized, saying that it was ok for the other family to take me into another country. Not sure if that still stands? or if it was just a cruise regulation.

When we drive into Mexico, they don't check anything. However, I do know that if you fly into Mexico, you must provide a passport, and my parents used to at least show my birth certificate to customs once we landed and before boarding to get back.

I'm not sure what the Hatian regulations are, but I *assume* the boarder patrol thought something was up when there were 30 Hatian children in a car with Americans. I'm not sure that is a common occurance down there?

ETA: It sounds like these 9 or 10 Americans, the ones that say they didn't know what they were agreeing to, are going to tell anything they need to, to get out of this, so I assume lots of facts will be coming out soon.

 

[waterlilly]

Date: 2/5/2010 4:45:16 PM
Author: meresal
Waterlilly- I went to Mexico with a friend''s family when I was 17, and from what I remember the cruise ship required that my parents sign a letter and have it notarized, saying that it was ok for the other family to take me into another country. Not sure if that still stands? or if it was just a cruise regulation.


When we drive into Mexico, they don''t check anything. However, I do know that if you fly into Mexico, you must provide a passport, and my parents used to at least show my birth certificate to customs once we landed and before boarding to get back.


I''m not sure what the Hatian regulations are, but I *assume* the boarder patrol thought something was up when there were 30 Hatian children in a car with Americans. I''m not sure that is a common occurance down there?

Right, doubt it!

Strange, when I picture them getting caught in my head, I see them sort of trying to walk across the border all casual-like, holding hands. That''s weird, right?

 

[perry]

I think your rant is misplaced.

The situation in Haiti is not good - and is a tradegdy.

However, the worst human trafficing occurs when such disasters occur.

The Haiti government is well aware of the issues - and it would be a worse disaster to just let people take kids out.

Should the government decide that it is OK to move a lot of children - they will certainly work through well established charities such as World Vision - and not some random group they know nothing about.

Anyone should know that taking children across international borders without proper authorization is subject to very high penalties; and only extreem exceptions will be overlooked (Like being in the middle of an active battlefield).

As much as it has been reported that the parents "gave" these kids away. The fact is that the parents were able to provide basic care for their children (otherwise they would have been hallow from starving or near dead).

I am sure that these people will be convicted of child trafficing - and rightly so. The only question is how many years will they have to serve.

Perry

 

[katamari]

It is important to understand any cultural practice from their own standards. In Haiti, and other countries that have restaveks, it is one of the few options for a child to achieve social class mobility and it is actually very uncommon. Only 1 in 300,000 Haitian children are restaveks.

I had a professor who was a restavek in undergrad. He has a foundation and wrote a book. I suggest reading his book or looking into his foundation if you are truly interested. Here is the link to his book. He is very actively interested and working towards ending child slavery in Haiti, but strongly believes that the proper method is to help the Haitian people and the Haitian infrastructure and not removing the children.

My general disgust toward the coverage of these Haitian adoptions is that the adoptive "saviors" are horribly ethnocentric and are treating the children as much of a commodity as enslaving them.

 

[Indylady]

"I guess Haitians really don''t have a problem with slavery, as long as it''s only the kids that have to do the dirty work."

I''m amazed by what you just said. Haitians are human. You make it sound like they aren''t. You honestly believe that parents are ok with selling their children as slaves? For parents that have to give up their children, I am certain it is gut wrenching and heart breaking decision. I am certain those mothers think about their children every day and every moment. I was so embarrassed to think that a fellow American would speak of Haitians the way you have. You think that Haitians don''t have a problem with slavery? There are between 15,000 and 20,000 people into the Unites States annually. It doesn''t mean that Americans are ok with slavery. It is not a culture that views children as dispensable. You are making vast generalizations about an entire culture and a nation.

You blame Haitians for being dependent on Western countries, yet you think these missionaries were doing Haiti a favor by "saving" these kids?

I agree with Meresal entirely: "These missionaries are why people don''t like Americans, for being arrogant... and to be honest, I think they made us look worse as a nation.

Just a reminder that there are Americans that actually BELIEVE that just because they think "we know better" and have the funds, that we can travel to another country and do whatever we want. Not cool."

Incidents such as this one is exactly why many foreigners are mistrustful of Americans.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 2/5/2010 9:25:48 PM
Author: IndyLady

''I guess Haitians really don''t have a problem with slavery, as long as it''s only the kids that have to do the dirty work.''

I''m amazed by what you just said. Haitians are human. You make it sound like they aren''t. You honestly believe that parents are ok with selling their children as slaves? For parents that have to give up their children, I am certain it is gut wrenching and heart breaking decision. I am certain those mothers think about their children every day and every moment. I was so embarrassed to think that a fellow American would speak of Haitians the way you have. You think that Haitians don''t have a problem with slavery? There are between 15,000 and 20,000 people into the Unites States annually. It doesn''t mean that Americans are ok with slavery. It is not a culture that views children as dispensable. You are making vast generalizations about an entire culture and a nation.

You blame Haitians for being dependent on Western countries, yet you think these missionaries were doing Haiti a favor by ''saving'' these kids?

I agree with Meresal entirely: ''These missionaries are why people don''t like Americans, for being arrogant... and to be honest, I think they made us look worse as a nation.

Just a reminder that there are Americans that actually BELIEVE that just because they think ''we know better'' and have the funds, that we can travel to another country and do whatever we want. Not cool.''

Incidents such as this one is exactly why many foreigners are mistrustful of Americans.

Like I said, I don''t think that the missionaries were justified in what they did - what surprises me is the fact that the Haitian govt. is now pretending to give a care about Haitian orphans. With over 400,000 orphans in a country of less than 10 million, most of whom aren''t actual orphans but children that were just given away by parents who are unwilling or unable to take care of them, it seems that Haiti does have a certain segment of it''s culture that views children as being dispensible.

Also, the fact that a restavec culture exists at all shows that children are viewed as vessels of free labor to the privileged, with little care given to their well-being. As I mentioned, one of my classmates at college had a mother who was a restavec, and she chilled us with the stories of the physical and sexual abuse that her mother suffered as a child. No one cared about the problem, and no one helped her, because there are nearly 250,000 restavec kids in Haiti, and there slavery is considered an acceptable lifestyle for poor children.

I''m sure that while some of the parents that sell their kids care about them, there are certainly many who don''t, or don''t care enough. I saw an interview on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago with a Haitian mother with 14 children and no husband. She was getting ready to give away two of her daughters (ages 12 and as restavecs in a more affluent area. She said that she did not know anything about the families that her daughters were going to live with, nor did she know what their "work" would entail, if they would be educated, etc. She seemed to put very little thought into the arrangement outside of the fact that she would no longer have to worry about feeding of her pre-pubescent daughters, which I found sickening.

Everyone seems to be so concerned about the possibility of trafficing from a bunch of Christian missionaries who were bringing the kids to a safe-haven orphanage run by European nuns a couple of hundred miles away - how about the trafficing that many Haitians have been engaged in, selling their own children? It just seems like there is a lot of misplaced venom towards the missionaires who were trying to help (albeit the wrong way). I honestly have more of a problem with a government and culture that that enslaves its own children.

 

[Should Be Studying]

Date: 2/6/2010 5:04:51 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 2/5/2010 9:25:48 PM

Author: IndyLady


''I guess Haitians really don''t have a problem with slavery, as long as it''s only the kids that have to do the dirty work.''


I''m amazed by what you just said. Haitians are human. You make it sound like they aren''t. You honestly believe that parents are ok with selling their children as slaves? For parents that have to give up their children, I am certain it is gut wrenching and heart breaking decision. I am certain those mothers think about their children every day and every moment. I was so embarrassed to think that a fellow American would speak of Haitians the way you have. You think that Haitians don''t have a problem with slavery? There are between 15,000 and 20,000 people into the Unites States annually. It doesn''t mean that Americans are ok with slavery. It is not a culture that views children as dispensable. You are making vast generalizations about an entire culture and a nation.


You blame Haitians for being dependent on Western countries, yet you think these missionaries were doing Haiti a favor by ''saving'' these kids?


I agree with Meresal entirely: ''These missionaries are why people don''t like Americans, for being arrogant... and to be honest, I think they made us look worse as a nation.


Just a reminder that there are Americans that actually BELIEVE that just because they think ''we know better'' and have the funds, that we can travel to another country and do whatever we want. Not cool.''


Incidents such as this one is exactly why many foreigners are mistrustful of Americans.

Like I said, I don''t think that the missionaries were justified in what they did - what surprises me is the fact that the Haitian govt. is now pretending to give a care about Haitian orphans. With over 400,000 orphans in a country of less than 10 million, most of whom aren''t actual orphans but children that were just given away by parents who are unwilling or unable to take care of them, it seems that Haiti does have a certain segment of it''s culture that views children as being dispensible.


Also, the fact that a restavec culture exists at all shows that children are viewed as vessels of free labor to the privileged, with little care given to their well-being. As I mentioned, one of my classmates at college had a mother who was a restavec, and she chilled us with the stories of the physical and sexual abuse that her mother suffered as a child. No one cared about the problem, and no one helped her, because there are nearly 250,000 restavec kids in Haiti, and there slavery is considered an acceptable lifestyle for poor children.


I''m sure that while some of the parents that sell their kids care about them, there are certainly many who don''t, or don''t care enough. I saw an interview on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago with a Haitian mother with 14 children and no husband. She was getting ready to give away two of her daughters (ages 12 and as restavecs in a more affluent area. She said that she did not know anything about the families that her daughters were going to live with, nor did she know what their ''work'' would entail, if they would be educated, etc. She seemed to put very little thought into the arrangement outside of the fact that she would no longer have to worry about feeding of her pre-pubescent daughters, which I found sickening.


Everyone seems to be so concerned about the possibility of trafficing from a bunch of Christian missionaries who were bringing the kids to a safe-haven orphanage run by European nuns a couple of hundred miles away - how about the trafficing that many Haitians have been engaged in, selling their own children? It just seems like there is a lot of misplaced venom towards the missionaires who were trying to help (albeit the wrong way). I honestly have more of a problem with a government and culture that that enslaves its own children.

I think your generalizations about the culture are very misplaced. I understand what you saw on 60 minutes and heard from your classmate''s mother, but honestly you do not know what was going through that mother''s mind who had to give up her 2 children. Having been to Haiti, you can watch the news all you want, but you cannot grasp that level of poverty or understand what those people go through until you SEE it, and even then you still cannot fully understand understand unless you live it. You continue to conflate the government and the Haitian people, and I think it is somewhat offensive.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 2/6/2010 5:19:35 PM
Author: Should Be Studying

Date: 2/6/2010 5:04:51 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 2/5/2010 9:25:48 PM

Author: IndyLady


''I guess Haitians really don''t have a problem with slavery, as long as it''s only the kids that have to do the dirty work.''


I''m amazed by what you just said. Haitians are human. You make it sound like they aren''t. You honestly believe that parents are ok with selling their children as slaves? For parents that have to give up their children, I am certain it is gut wrenching and heart breaking decision. I am certain those mothers think about their children every day and every moment. I was so embarrassed to think that a fellow American would speak of Haitians the way you have. You think that Haitians don''t have a problem with slavery? There are between 15,000 and 20,000 people into the Unites States annually. It doesn''t mean that Americans are ok with slavery. It is not a culture that views children as dispensable. You are making vast generalizations about an entire culture and a nation.


You blame Haitians for being dependent on Western countries, yet you think these missionaries were doing Haiti a favor by ''saving'' these kids?


I agree with Meresal entirely: ''These missionaries are why people don''t like Americans, for being arrogant... and to be honest, I think they made us look worse as a nation.


Just a reminder that there are Americans that actually BELIEVE that just because they think ''we know better'' and have the funds, that we can travel to another country and do whatever we want. Not cool.''


Incidents such as this one is exactly why many foreigners are mistrustful of Americans.

Like I said, I don''t think that the missionaries were justified in what they did - what surprises me is the fact that the Haitian govt. is now pretending to give a care about Haitian orphans. With over 400,000 orphans in a country of less than 10 million, most of whom aren''t actual orphans but children that were just given away by parents who are unwilling or unable to take care of them, it seems that Haiti does have a certain segment of it''s culture that views children as being dispensible.


Also, the fact that a restavec culture exists at all shows that children are viewed as vessels of free labor to the privileged, with little care given to their well-being. As I mentioned, one of my classmates at college had a mother who was a restavec, and she chilled us with the stories of the physical and sexual abuse that her mother suffered as a child. No one cared about the problem, and no one helped her, because there are nearly 250,000 restavec kids in Haiti, and there slavery is considered an acceptable lifestyle for poor children.


I''m sure that while some of the parents that sell their kids care about them, there are certainly many who don''t, or don''t care enough. I saw an interview on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago with a Haitian mother with 14 children and no husband. She was getting ready to give away two of her daughters (ages 12 and as restavecs in a more affluent area. She said that she did not know anything about the families that her daughters were going to live with, nor did she know what their ''work'' would entail, if they would be educated, etc. She seemed to put very little thought into the arrangement outside of the fact that she would no longer have to worry about feeding of her pre-pubescent daughters, which I found sickening.


Everyone seems to be so concerned about the possibility of trafficing from a bunch of Christian missionaries who were bringing the kids to a safe-haven orphanage run by European nuns a couple of hundred miles away - how about the trafficing that many Haitians have been engaged in, selling their own children? It just seems like there is a lot of misplaced venom towards the missionaires who were trying to help (albeit the wrong way). I honestly have more of a problem with a government and culture that that enslaves its own children.

I think your generalizations about the culture are very misplaced. I understand what you saw on 60 minutes and heard from your classmate''s mother, but honestly you do not know what was going through that mother''s mind who had to give up her 2 children. Having been to Haiti, you can watch the news all you want, but you cannot grasp that level of poverty or understand what those people go through until you SEE it, and even then you still cannot fully understand understand unless you live it. You continue to conflate the government and the Haitian people, and I think it is somewhat offensive.

So do you think that sending children to live as restavecs is an acceptable cultural practice? Do you think that would be a good solution for poor people in the rest of the world, to just give their kids away to live with strangers as unpaid child laborers (slaves) with no accountability?

 

[vespergirl]

Here''s a new article about the problem of what to do with restavec children post earthquake, and one little girl''s story:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/01/29/haiti.restavek.sende.sencil/index.html

 

[Should Be Studying]

Date: 2/6/2010 5:25:59 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 2/6/2010 5:19:35 PM

Author: Should Be Studying

Date: 2/6/2010 5:04:51 PM

Author: vespergirl

Date: 2/5/2010 9:25:48 PM


Author: IndyLady



''I guess Haitians really don''t have a problem with slavery, as long as it''s only the kids that have to do the dirty work.''



I''m amazed by what you just said. Haitians are human. You make it sound like they aren''t. You honestly believe that parents are ok with selling their children as slaves? For parents that have to give up their children, I am certain it is gut wrenching and heart breaking decision. I am certain those mothers think about their children every day and every moment. I was so embarrassed to think that a fellow American would speak of Haitians the way you have. You think that Haitians don''t have a problem with slavery? There are between 15,000 and 20,000 people into the Unites States annually. It doesn''t mean that Americans are ok with slavery. It is not a culture that views children as dispensable. You are making vast generalizations about an entire culture and a nation.



You blame Haitians for being dependent on Western countries, yet you think these missionaries were doing Haiti a favor by ''saving'' these kids?



I agree with Meresal entirely: ''These missionaries are why people don''t like Americans, for being arrogant... and to be honest, I think they made us look worse as a nation.



Just a reminder that there are Americans that actually BELIEVE that just because they think ''we know better'' and have the funds, that we can travel to another country and do whatever we want. Not cool.''



Incidents such as this one is exactly why many foreigners are mistrustful of Americans.

Like I said, I don''t think that the missionaries were justified in what they did - what surprises me is the fact that the Haitian govt. is now pretending to give a care about Haitian orphans. With over 400,000 orphans in a country of less than 10 million, most of whom aren''t actual orphans but children that were just given away by parents who are unwilling or unable to take care of them, it seems that Haiti does have a certain segment of it''s culture that views children as being dispensible.



Also, the fact that a restavec culture exists at all shows that children are viewed as vessels of free labor to the privileged, with little care given to their well-being. As I mentioned, one of my classmates at college had a mother who was a restavec, and she chilled us with the stories of the physical and sexual abuse that her mother suffered as a child. No one cared about the problem, and no one helped her, because there are nearly 250,000 restavec kids in Haiti, and there slavery is considered an acceptable lifestyle for poor children.



I''m sure that while some of the parents that sell their kids care about them, there are certainly many who don''t, or don''t care enough. I saw an interview on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago with a Haitian mother with 14 children and no husband. She was getting ready to give away two of her daughters (ages 12 and as restavecs in a more affluent area. She said that she did not know anything about the families that her daughters were going to live with, nor did she know what their ''work'' would entail, if they would be educated, etc. She seemed to put very little thought into the arrangement outside of the fact that she would no longer have to worry about feeding of her pre-pubescent daughters, which I found sickening.



Everyone seems to be so concerned about the possibility of trafficing from a bunch of Christian missionaries who were bringing the kids to a safe-haven orphanage run by European nuns a couple of hundred miles away - how about the trafficing that many Haitians have been engaged in, selling their own children? It just seems like there is a lot of misplaced venom towards the missionaires who were trying to help (albeit the wrong way). I honestly have more of a problem with a government and culture that that enslaves its own children.

I think your generalizations about the culture are very misplaced. I understand what you saw on 60 minutes and heard from your classmate''s mother, but honestly you do not know what was going through that mother''s mind who had to give up her 2 children. Having been to Haiti, you can watch the news all you want, but you cannot grasp that level of poverty or understand what those people go through until you SEE it, and even then you still cannot fully understand understand unless you live it. You continue to conflate the government and the Haitian people, and I think it is somewhat offensive.

So do you think that sending children to live as restavecs is an acceptable cultural practice? Do you think that would be a good solution for poor people in the rest of the world, to just give their kids away to live with strangers as unpaid child laborers (slaves) with no accountability?

Why would I think that? My point was not to defend the idea of restavecs, but to try to point out that this is not the NORM in Haitian culture. My point was that it is easy to make judgments about what it "seemed" like that mother was thinking, but you really have no idea. I don''t think anyone is in favor of the restavec idea here. Also, I have never seen a restavec in Haiti, although I have travelled there many times. So while I understand your frustration with the idea of child trafficking, all I was suggesting was that your generalizations that this is a cultural practice seem misplaced.

 

[Indylady]

Vespergirl, you are passing so much judgment. Instead of having compassion for a poor single mother of 14 who cannot afford to put food in her children''s mouths, you are disgusted by her. I would have taken it as a moment to give thanks that its not a situation I have had to endure. You still don''t think these moms care about their kids? After raising her girls for 8 and 12 years, you think that she doesn''t care about her babies, that carried and fed and clothed and played with? So many judgements!

"Everyone seems to be so concerned about the possibility of trafficing from a bunch of Christian missionaries who were bringing the kids to a safe-haven orphanage run by European nuns a couple of hundred miles away - how about the trafficing that many Haitians have been engaged in, selling their own children?" You''re making the assumption that there is no way these missionaries could have meant harm, and the implication that even if they did, it wouldn''t be a big deal because it happens in Haiti anyway. What?

You''re amazed by a restavec culture? What about the fact that Blacks in America weren''t allowed to vote until the 1960''s? What about those that go without health insurance in one of the world''s richest nations? What about the fact that America hasn''t had a female president yet and several Asian and European countries have? Since America has a problem with sexism (gendered pay gaps/glass ceiling/mommy track) is it up to one of the Scandinavian countries to come "save us" since we haven''t done enough yet by ourselves? I can''t understand why you have such a sneering attitude towards the Haitians when we have so much social stratification ourselves even after being one of the worlds richest nations and a democracy to boot.

 

[Imdanny]

Date: 2/4/2010 7:24:07 PM
Author: kenny
I''m sure they meant well but regardless of how appalling the conditions are, rules and proper procedures must be followed.

Exactly, the law has to be followed.
You can''t just go to another country and take children.

 

[sparklyheart]

As someone else said, just because we are Americans and have money doesn''t mean we can go into Haiti and do whatever we want. There are horrible living conditions all over the world but we can''t go in and fix the world with our money. I am 100% in favor of donating and volunteering with organizations such as the Red Cross because in times of need they are wonderful. However, just because Haiti has experienced such a horrendous event does not mean that we should go in and fix everything WE see wrong with their country. Oh my! Could you imagine if France decided they were ready to "fix" America after 9/11?? Haitians have a different culture, a different way of viewing the world.. Is it wrong? In many ways, I would say yes.. but do they? Maybe that''s the best they can do.. Like the mom with 14 kids.. No, none of us would say it''s "right" but with their living conditions, it may be the best they can do. Our country has been pumping money into them for how long now?? Sure we have ideas of what they should do with that money but Haiti is a big girl and has to make big girl decisions. Maybe the government needs assistance as far as knowledge about forming a stable government or developing a stronger economy.. But you can''t go in and change everything up and expect them to listen or even care when they already have their cultural norms in place. When it comes to how children (and adults) are treated, I think the international world does have the chance to go in there and help improve living conditions but how big of a feat is that? And if we do it in Haiti then we have to go to Africa..heck people in America can''t even treat their kids well!! Changing conditions like that is a long process and you can''t expect it to change overnight..that being said, I do hope organizations and the government are keeping an eye on the conditions down there and doing their best to protect people but right now, I doubt their focus is on the things that have been going on forever (giving away extra children to be slaves) when they have issues such as trafficking to be concerned with.

I''m not going to lie, I hate the idea of bringing all of the Haitian children to America. We can''t even take care of our own children so why do we need to aqcuire 400K more??

 

[vespergirl]

I can''t believe how many people on this thread are making excuses for SLAVERY by saying that we need to be "cuturally sensitive" to Haitian conditions. Why, because it''s a poor, black country? To say that we must be "politically correct" and not condemn slavery in Haiti is the worst type of racism - it''s the soft bigotry of low expectations. Why should we not hold Haitians to the same moral standard of human rights that we hold ourselves? If slavery is unacceptable in the rest of the world, then slavery should be unacceptable in Haiti. ESPECIALLY because the Haitian people, of anyone, should know about the appalling injustice of slavery. I don''t see why poor black people enslaving other poor black people is any less awful that rich white people enslaving poor black people, like the shameful history of the US.

It is truly appalling to me that many of you are so concerned with being politically correct and not seeming judgmental of Haitian culture - how about being outraged by the fact that this is a country that openly and unapologetically enslaves its own children? Do I judge Haitians poorly for enslaving children? Absolutely and unapologetically, yes. My parents grew up malnourished and in abject poverty in a foreign country. However, their parents never considered selling them into slavery.

Please read below for some facts about Haitian indifference toward the restavec problem.


Haiti''s dirty little secret: The problem of child slavery
Friday, September 15, 2006
by Michale Sheckleford, COHA Research Associate

The Incidence and Horrors of Child Labour in Haiti
According to the Haitian government, there are about 90,000 to 120,000 children in bondage, but UNICEF estimates significantly larger numbers, ranging from 250,000 to 300,000. Very little child labour is used in the formal sectors of the country and is largely confined to the informal underbelly of the economy and the domestic sphere. However, desperate rural families bring their children into Port-Au-Prince and other urban areas to work as domestics in the homes of well-to-do families, who ostensibly should be providing them with schooling in return. However, these children often perform the most wretched of tasks that hired help refuse to do, such as emptying bedpans and walking for miles fetching water.

They are also forced to work very long hours without compensation and are harshly brutalized for even the slightest mistake or neglect of a duty. They are frequently subject to severe physical abuse, as their owners often beat them mercilessly with cowhide switches manufactured especially for that purpose, for the most minor of infractions. These children are exposed to insensible acts of violence, such as one girl who was set ablaze because allegedly her employers wanted to find out if hairspray was flammable.

Over 70 percent of the restavecs are girls, most of whom range from as young as 3 to 15 years of age. Many of them are virtually enslaved by individuals who are situated in only slightly better circumstances, who otherwise could not afford to hire domestics. In a class-based society such as Haiti, the ownership of a restavec elevates one a few rungs on the social ladder. Restavecs are often made to sleep on the floor, usually under a table, on a pile of rags or on a piece of dirty cardboard outside of the family''s home. Moreover, they are easily identified on the streets by their tattered clothing. It is devastatingly common for young, female restavecs to be subjected to repeated rape by male members of the "host family."

When their owners have no further use for them, these children are often thrust out onto the streets after being severely beaten or sexually abused. Since these children have not received the education promised by their "hosts," they have little opportunity to improve their situation at the close of their servitude.

The Challenge to the International Community
Child slavery is so ingrained in the national psyche that many Haitians do not feel that the practice is particularly odious. In a society sharply divided by colour and class, many of those who occupy the lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder are not considered fully human and are thus not accorded basic human rights, especially the restavecs. Given Haiti''s current lack of state capacity, it is doubtful that the government will make any significant inroads on this social blight for years to come, especially in light of the privileged classes'' opposition to any justice measures designed to uplift Haiti''s poor. Due to Haitian society''s silent acceptance of this deplorable practice, there needs to be increased media attention and international condemnation of the restavec system to bring this dirty little secret to light.

http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/cgi-script/csArticles/articles/000032/003298.htm

History of the restavec system:

Haiti has often had obstacles to enforcing its own laws and though abolished in law both in 1793 and 1804, slave conditions and class distinctions have survived through the present day. Seeing coffee and sugar as Haiti''s only economic asset, Toussaint L''Ouverture immediately implemented mandatory labor after leading history''s only successful slave revolt and winning Haiti''s independence. Law required all inhabitants to be employed as servants, soldiers, or plantation workers. Slaves were renamed cultivateurs and, although their masters were no longer white, their plight was improved marginally at best. L''Ouverture even called for the import of more African laborers to make up for wartime losses. (Nice - so the first thing they did after revolting against the French was import more slaves). Under Dessalines, L''Ouverture''s successor, conditions only worsened as a reign of terror became the norm from which Haitians have seldom seen respite. Haiti''s new rulers could have turned Haiti into a model of individual freedom in the New World. Instead they maintained an oppressive labor code on the plantations . . . and the restavek system (child slavery) survived into the twentieth century and beyond.

After the abolition of slavery, household servants stayed on. The nouveaux-riche black army officers that took over the plantations became just as accustomed to these servants as their white predecessors and the system perpetuated. In a parallel root, this system originated as traditional Haitian hospitality. The term restavek derives from French and Creole, literally meaning: "to stay with". Wealthier distant relations would take in one of the children of a struggling family member. In exchange for menial tasks and light household chores, the child would be clothed, fed, educated, and provided for in ways that his or her parents could not. As this practice became more common, however, families with less and less money began taking in restaveks as a status symbol. Haiti is already one of the most impoverished nations in the world and when families that can barely afford to feed, clothe, and educate themselves properly take on a restavek, they are that much less inclined to share what little they have with him or her. Restaveks are then forced to work 10-16 hour days of backbreaking labor, often on only one meal a day. They are clothed with the rags and hand-me-downs of the other children, usually without underwear or shoes. Seldom educated, they sleep on cardboard or rags, suffer constant humiliation and abuse. Girls are especially vulnerable: They are commonly used for the sexual initiation of teenage boys in the house (Hoag) and are generally seen as something slightly less than human.

http://www.haitiantips.com/index.php/40

 

[Should Be Studying]

Date: 2/7/2010 6:28:11 PM
Author: vespergirl
I can''t believe how many people on this thread are making excuses for SLAVERY by saying that we need to be ''cuturally sensitive'' to Haitian conditions. Why, because it''s a poor, black country? To say that we must be ''politically correct'' and not condemn slavery in Haiti is the worst type of racism - it''s the soft bigotry of low expectations. Why should we not hold Haitians to the same moral standard of human rights that we hold ourselves? If slavery is unacceptable in the rest of the world, then slavery should be unacceptable in Haiti. ESPECIALLY because the Haitian people, of anyone, should know about the appalling injustice of slavery. I don''t see why poor black people enslaving other poor black people is any less awful that rich white people enslaving poor black people, like the shameful history of the US.


It is truly appalling to me that many of you are so concerned with being politically correct and not seeming judgmental of Haitian culture - how about being outraged by the fact that this is a country that openly and unapologetically enslaves its own children? Do I judge Haitians poorly for enslaving children? Absolutely and unapologetically, yes. My parents grew up malnourished and in abject poverty in a foreign country. However, their parents never considered selling them into slavery.

I''m sorry, I don''t know if this is partly directed at me, but I think you are once again missing the point. It is not about being politically correct, it is just that you are suggesting that this is a HUGE part of Haitian culture that the general Haitian population practices. My point, again, was that I think you are taking what a SMALL MINORITY of Haitian people do, and turning it into a national custom.

"How about being outraged by the fact that this is a country that openly and unapologetically enslaves its own children?" Here''s the problem--the country does not openly do this. Somewhere throughout this thread you have gone from criticizing the government to the nation as a whole.

I respect that this is your thread, and I am not trying to argue with you. But as a Haitian-American, I am offended by your generalizations. Once again, I understand that I can just skip this thread, but I truly hope you can see that no one is defending the restavec situation.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 2/7/2010 10:22:28 AM
Author: sparklyheart
As someone else said, just because we are Americans and have money doesn''t mean we can go into Haiti and do whatever we want. There are horrible living conditions all over the world but we can''t go in and fix the world with our money. I am 100% in favor of donating and volunteering with organizations such as the Red Cross because in times of need they are wonderful. However, just because Haiti has experienced such a horrendous event does not mean that we should go in and fix everything WE see wrong with their country. Oh my! Could you imagine if France decided they were ready to ''fix'' America after 9/11?? Haitians have a different culture, a different way of viewing the world.. Is it wrong? In many ways, I would say yes.. but do they? Maybe that''s the best they can do.. Like the mom with 14 kids.. No, none of us would say it''s ''right'' but with their living conditions, it may be the best they can do. Our country has been pumping money into them for how long now?? Sure we have ideas of what they should do with that money but Haiti is a big girl and has to make big girl decisions. Maybe the government needs assistance as far as knowledge about forming a stable government or developing a stronger economy.. But you can''t go in and change everything up and expect them to listen or even care when they already have their cultural norms in place. When it comes to how children (and adults) are treated, I think the international world does have the chance to go in there and help improve living conditions but how big of a feat is that? And if we do it in Haiti then we have to go to Africa..heck people in America can''t even treat their kids well!! Changing conditions like that is a long process and you can''t expect it to change overnight..that being said, I do hope organizations and the government are keeping an eye on the conditions down there and doing their best to protect people but right now, I doubt their focus is on the things that have been going on forever (giving away extra children to be slaves) when they have issues such as trafficking to be concerned with.

I''m not going to lie, I hate the idea of bringing all of the Haitian children to America. We can''t even take care of our own children so why do we need to aqcuire 400K more??

Who said anything about bringing 400,000 Haitian children here??? Any children brought here will be done so through adoptions where an approved adoptive family wants to bring a homeless or orphaned child into their family. The few that make it will be very fortunate to have an opportunity for a better life.

 

[perry]

Vespergirl:

I understand your passion and interest. I believe that most of the normal aid workers in Haiti also know about the issue.

I have personally seen the sexual slavery trade in Port-a-Prince (spelling?) Haiti (and been offered the option to purchase the young lady of my choice to do as I pleased - even kill her if I wanted; as part of the deal they would drug her to feel no pain if that was what I wanted (and I will not describe here the other things they would do or help me do to such a young lady). A local virgin girl was no more than $100 (price depended on age and condition) - and a lot less if she was already "used"). I did not take the offer; but I do know a person from our ship who did (at least he was not in our group).

I did not seek out such services; but I was with a with a group of my shipmates and most wanted to head to a brothel. For safety sake - we traveled in groups. When overseas we (U.S Military - Navy) generally traveled in groups for safety, and in those years I''ve been in many a brothel (I never partook - personal beliefs). When possible, I tried to find other company that wanted to do something other than drink and get laid; but that was not always possible - and I did want to get off of the ship.

As this was the first I''d seen the overt sex slave trade; and being sober and early enough in my visit to not yet be totally shell shocked that I asked a few more questions. What if I wanted a non-local girl? It was then I learned how international the sex slave trade was. For more money I could name the age range, race/language, and in many cases the country (or at least geographic region) - and they could probably deliver the most common request within an hour or two (and in most cases almost certainly by the next night).

Prior to my several day visit to Haiti I had often gone to other countries; looked at their "issues" and thought to myself (and sometimes stated): Here is how we would fix this in America.

I left Haiti in total mental shock - and operated in "zombie" mode for 1-2 weeks while I thought about what I had seen and experienced and learned in Haiti.

I came out of that experience with a new appreciation that "American Ways" don''t always apply to overseas problems. In my next several years in the U.S. Navy and during my foreign travel I found that in many cases that "American Ways" are actually counterproductive because of the differences between the local culture and the American culture. Only rarely now do I think that we here in America have the direct answer to a problem in a foreign nation. I then learned a lot more about other countries due to my new perspective when I visisted.

All real and lasting solutions must be built upon the local cultures. I also learned to accept that there is a wide range of "what is right" in the world - again based on local cultures. I spent a lot of time thinking of what the end goals of different cultures and systems was. How can I quibble with the "local" rules and interpretation on may issues if overall their culture and system produced a reasonable result.

I also knew one of the political refugees from Haiti in the 90''s (the rest of her family had been killed). We often talked about Haiti and the issues. I personally know several people who spend time each year doing charity work in rural Haiti. Trust me - all these people knew of the issues.

In the last decade or so Haiti has made a lot of progress - but that was by working within their culture.

So I understand your concerns, and your passion. I''ve seen and experienced things that most people in the US never have a chance to - not even through articles and video. Just the written descriptions of the truth are not pretty.

The real question is: How can we effectively help - even if we don''t understand how or why they are in the situation they are in.

I personally do not see how attempting to further raise the awareness of the restavecs and discuss how Haiti developed into its current situation is going to accomplish much. I''d rather focus on the solutions. How do we solve the problems? How do you slowly change a culture?

As far as the title issue of this thread - sorry, but you have to be near brain dead, or very stupid, or very guilable, to think you can take kids out of a country. Those people are not part of the solution (in my opinion) - and may make things worse for the legitimate agencies. I''ll shed no tears for the people involved whatever the punishment.

I''d love to have a sit down talk with "Should be Studying" and compare notes.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I am pretty much in agreement with Vesper''s posts although I feel that some are misunderstanding her. I am also really amazed that there are people here who would not help an abandoned child. Yes, I would take the children to an approved orphanage and not do something as dumb as removing them from the country illegally. If parents are handing over kids because they can''t feed them, then they need help. I''d far rather help the child make it to a safe haven than have them end up in slavery or dead! And the idea that handing the family money would end up helping the child is extremely naive!

As far as the missionary situation goes, I think there is validity to question the motives of the LEADER of the group. She seems to have had some questionable dealings here in the US. One other person may have known what she was doing. The others were simply church members from Idaho who were moved by the horrible tragedy in Haiti and volunteered to go help. From what I have read, even the Haitian attorney believed that 8-9 of them were simply misled (or deceived) by the woman who is the leader. I am really disappointed that there was such a presumption of guilt toward people who made real sacrifices to go down there to try to help.

We sponsor children in Haiti through a real Christian missionary (and did so long before the earthquake). She does it the right way.

http://www.danitaschildren.org/

 

[Should Be Studying]

Date: 2/7/2010 7:58:35 PM
Author: perry
Vespergirl:




So I understand your concerns, and your passion. I''ve seen and experienced things that most people in the US never have a chance to - not even through articles and video. Just the written descriptions of the truth are not pretty.


The real question is: How can we effectively help - even if we don''t understand how or why they are in the situation they are in.


I personally do not see how attempting to further raise the awareness of the restavecs and discuss how Haiti developed into its current situation is going to accomplish much. I''d rather focus on the solutions. How do we solve the problems? How do you slowly change a culture?


As far as the title issue of this thread - sorry, but you have to be near brain dead, or very stupid, or very guilable, to think you can take kids out of a country. Those people are not part of the solution (in my opinion) - and may make things worse for the legitimate agencies. I''ll shed no tears for the people involved whatever the punishment.


I''d love to have a sit down talk with ''Should be Studying'' and compare notes.

Wow, Perry, your description of what you experienced in Haiti is shocking (but then again, not so much). I am so glad that you shared your perspective. My notes would not be very helpful, because I traveled to Haiti to visit family, so I have always seen a different side of things. I do agree that you reading stories and watching videos is not the same as actually being there. The poverty and living conditions are astounding. Every time I go there, I feel such a sense of sadness for the people, because most of them really have no chance at improving their lives. The problems they faced on a daily basis BEFORE the earthquake were just heartbreaking. Now, I can''t even imagine what they will face, between the psychological aftermath, the physical destruction, and the mass numbers of amputees and orphans.

I agree with you that the focus should be on the future and effectively helping to find solutions. I have had so many discussions with people about this in the past, regarding other facets of Haitian culture, and the same question has come up: how do you slowly change a culture? There are no easy answers to that question.