Gay marriage redefining weddings

[WishfulThinking]

Okay, I can''t do this thread anymore.

I am a real person. I have real feelings. I cry like you do. I hurt like you do. I long for things like you presumably do. I want a good life. I have no desire to be discriminated against at every turn. I don''t have to justify myself to hateful people. If you don''t want me to have equal rights, that''s fine, but don''t hide behind a pretense of popular support or ridiculous parallels. Expose yourself for what you are: a bigot. There have been many bigots throughout history, unfortunately, and we look back on them with distaste and disgust remembering the "old days" when we used to oppress certain groups of people that we now largely see as equal. You can either be part of this historical moment, or you can opt out, but things are going to change, slowly but surely, and I will eventually be a person, just like you, with all of the freedoms, privileges, and responsibilities that you have.

I am a strong, smart, motivated person who is going to be a lawyer and make waves and make change and stand up for myself and other people who are not in a position to stand up for themselves. In the end I will win. We will win. Whether it be in November, in 2010, or long after both you and I have left this world.

Your comments today made me cry and hurt. You would cry and hurt too, if you were in my position, planning a wedding that won''t have any legal significance. Being told that your love isn''t good enough. Being compared to children, pets, inanimate objects, and taxes. Told that because one tiny part of your being and identity discrimination against you should be allowed. Think about what you''re saying because there are people behind these screens, people behind these words. This is not a theoretical concept to be debated as if it doesn''t affect people, real people, people like you.

It''s stuff like this that makes me remember that PS is not the safe space I sometimes try to pretend it is. It makes me want to stop posting because I am self conscious of how people who wish me ill will perceive me and judge me and hope and vote that my marriage will not be legal. I''m planning a wedding and doing the best I can to be nice, and polite, and sweet, and helpful here so that people might just change their minds about me, but some people will never change.

 

[movie zombie]

Wishful, you are bright, intelligent, and very good with words: in short, you''re going to make a great attorney and i hope you do make waves that will be seen in your life time.

what always amazes me in all this is that the LOVE gets lost. life is short and it is my opinion that we''re lucky to find love at all, and if we find it in a hetero or other relationship, what counts is the love.

congratulations to you and your partner. may your union be blessed.

movie zombie

 

[ladypirate]

Wishful, please remember that there are many many people on these boards who support you as well--you are obviously an intelligent and gifted human being and your partner is lucky to have you.

Please don't stop posting. I know I and I'm sure many others would miss reading your insights.

 

[Rank Amateur]

Just because I disagree with your equal protection argument doesn''t make it right for you to insult you and call me names.

Marriage as a legal entity was born out of society''s desire to encourage the family unit, this is clear. Don''t list for me the exceptions, the childless marriages, the sterile spouses, the abusive, neglectful parents. If it weren''t about the family unit (yes, via procreation), You0 could marry your sister or I could marry my post-menopausal mother. But we can''t, now why is that? Meaningless tradition? Bigotry? Should we blame it on those zealots who pick through the bible looking for verses to support their crazy viewpoints? Of course not.

Maybe the title of your thread should really read "Gay weddings attempt to redifine marriage" for that is what you really want: to change people''s view of what a marriage is - through the courts if necessary.

Listen. I see nothing wrong with same sex relationships. I really don''t care. My church (the UCC) is very GLBT friendly and I think it''s great. I''m sure some local UCC churches do SS weddings. Many of the clergy are gay. Makes no difference to me. I''m on a search committee to call our next pastor, and who knows, maybe it will be a gay woman. Maybe she will change my opinion on the legality of SSM - but I doubt it!

 

[movie zombie]

i''m not so sure that the society desire wasn''t more along the lines of protecting property/assets and that protecting a family unit was merely a byproduct of the contractual protection of assets; remember, marriage is a civil contract and has been for many ages. when the catholic church went nose to nose with the european monarchs for control of land/property/assets as well as civil matters, it lost...... and i do believe even ancient peoples recognized the effects of inbreding [genetics] even though they didn''t have the vocab or scientific knowledge to describe it....hence, the prophibitions re marrying your sister, etc. and the desire to steal women to shake up the gene pool a bit. let''s also not forget that marriage was a useful contractual tool for cementing alliances between families. the desire for children was not much about having a loving family as much as it was about having extra hands to do labor and earn more assets thus increasing the family''s ability to eat and possibly even raise the family status.

movie zombie

 

[FrekeChild]

Ditto MZ.

Wishful, m''dear PS isn''t a safe bubble place, which is something I think most people have come to terms with. I, for one, think you''re a fantastic person, and that it''s wonderful that you and your FI are getting married and making a public statement that you intend to spend the rest of your lives together. The love is what it''s all about. I think that many people who do get married FORGET that its about loving someone and wanting to spend the rest of their lives together-and think of it as completely a legal thing, and it makes me sad. You''re doing it for the right reasons.

Sometimes thick skin is very appropriate for PS.

Thumbs up girl! I love to read your posts-you''re always so intelligent and empathetic in your posts. I appreciate them.

 

[pennquaker09]

Date: 8/6/2008 11:13:11 PM
Author: Rank Amateur
Just because I disagree with your equal protection argument doesn''t make it right for you to insult you and call me names.


Marriage as a legal entity was born out of society''s desire to encourage the family unit, this is clear. Don''t list for me the exceptions, the childless marriages, the sterile spouses, the abusive, neglectful parents. If it weren''t about the family unit (yes, via procreation), You0 could marry your sister or I could marry my post-menopausal mother. But we can''t, now why is that? Meaningless tradition? Bigotry? Should we blame it on those zealots who pick through the bible looking for verses to support their crazy viewpoints? Of course not.


Maybe the title of your thread should really read ''Gay weddings attempt to redifine marriage'' for that is what you really want: to change people''s view of what a marriage is - through the courts if necessary.



Listen. I see nothing wrong with same sex relationships. I really don''t care. My church (the UCC) is very GLBT friendly and I think it''s great. I''m sure some local UCC churches do SS weddings. Many of the clergy are gay. Makes no difference to me. I''m on a search committee to call our next pastor, and who knows, maybe it will be a gay woman. Maybe she will change my opinion on the legality of SSM - but I doubt it!

Your argument assumes that every legally married couple has the ability to have children.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 8/7/2008 2:26:05 AM
Author: FrekeChild
Ditto MZ.

Wishful, m''dear PS isn''t a safe bubble place, which is something I think most people have come to terms with. I, for one, think you''re a fantastic person, and that it''s wonderful that you and your FI are getting married and making a public statement that you intend to spend the rest of your lives together. The love is what it''s all about. I think that many people who do get married FORGET that its about loving someone and wanting to spend the rest of their lives together-and think of it as completely a legal thing, and it makes me sad. You''re doing it for the right reasons.

Sometimes thick skin is very appropriate for PS.

Thumbs up girl! I love to read your posts-you''re always so intelligent and empathetic in your posts. I appreciate them.

Indeed. If you''re looking for a safe place, the political threads are not it. And for the most part, the ones who can''t take the heat have taken their balls and gone home. Please don''t let strangers on a board hurt you. They can''t you know...unless you let them. I say that as a card-carrying PS "meanie".

That said, I do hope you come back. You are the first person I''ve heard speak at length on this issue and you''re clearly well-informed and articulate, which on a forum, is about the only way I can judge the merest thing about you. So far I''m highly impressed. And you have put out some wonderful food for thought. You have helped me solidify MY position from vague feelings (albeit conflicted at times) to a true position backed by solid reason. And for the record, I''m on your side dear. I wish you and your FI the absolute best. Changing the laws is what it is..or should be...all about in this country. The world is turning and things are inevitably changing. This change, like every other, will have ramifications of which we know nothing yet, but I seriously doubt that it will punch a hole in the space-time continuum, so you''re good.

Do come back!

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Wishful,
I just wanted to say that your post brought me to tears. While I know a few outspoken individuals can make it seem like the world is against you, remember that you are a valued and respected member of our little PS community, not because you''re gay, straight, bi, poly, what-have-you, but because you''re a person.There is nothing to be ashamed or self concious about. and kudos to you for standing up for what you believe in.

I found this thread to be informative and interesting (and I loved the bug cake). The posts were well thought out and well supported with evidence. However, there''s a reason why there are warnings about political discussions on boards like this. That''s not to say that those conversations won''t come up now and again, but we, on both sides of the fence, need to be open to other people''s opinions and mindful of their feelings. Having a different set of beliefs or a different lifestyle do not make one person better than another.

Let''s all try to remember that.

 

[WishfulThinking]

Thank you, movie zombie, ladypirate, Freke, ksinger, and HH.

Also, thanks for the contributions, movie zombie, and pennquaker. I think it's been forgotten somewhere along the way that the family was and is primarily an economic entity. Reproduction was a function of that economic unit, but it should be obvious that this is not the 1600s and there are other ways for the economic unit of the family to get longevity than to give birth repeatedly. RA, I recommend you check out some literature in the field of sociology. Look for the sub-category "historical materialism," as that might help you on that point.

Economics aside, I much prefer talking about the love that gets lost in all of this heated debate.

Love is not an abstract legal issue... it's peoples' lives and emotions.

I shouldn't have let any of this get to me, and I'm still trying to figure out why it did. I am usually so thick-skinned! I argued head to head with Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church when I was 15! And look at me now, 21 and crying over words on the internet. It was different when I didn't think I would get married and didn't even want to. I've been an activist for marriage equality since I was 12, but it wasn't until a few years ago that I thought I might want to actually get married, and not until now that I am planning to get married.

Something about planning to get married and having my legal rights threatened simultaneously collided in this thread. Planning my wedding in one section of the site and having to defend my right to have it in another second. I shouldn't have come into this thread to begin with, but debater that I am I couldn't stay out. I learned my lesson about that. I will never take my balls and come home, though. I like to think I can hold my own pretty well... for the most part.

Thanks again for being so understanding.


ETA: To clarify the family as an economic unit thing: the family [say in agricultural colonial America, for example] provided simultaneous functions of production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services. This process was kept going by reproduction [biological] to bolster the amount of people available in the family unit able to help out with these tasks, which sustained the family as a fairly distinct, self-fulfilling economic unit. This was how it was for most of the agricultural periods. Then the industrial revolution came, and the shape of the family changed again... it has continued to change, and those changes correlate with changes in the economy. The utility of the reproductive function is currently tenuous at best, and dangerous at worst if you are thinking globally and environmentally. Love is a very new concept when it comes to marriage and family.

 

[movie zombie]

yes, marrying for love is indeed a relatively new concept!

and you''re in love, Wishful! enjoy!

movie zombie

 

[miraclesrule]

Date: 8/7/2008 8:44:50 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 8/7/2008 2:26:05 AM
Author: FrekeChild
Ditto MZ.

Wishful, m'dear PS isn't a safe bubble place, which is something I think most people have come to terms with. I, for one, think you're a fantastic person, and that it's wonderful that you and your FI are getting married and making a public statement that you intend to spend the rest of your lives together. The love is what it's all about. I think that many people who do get married FORGET that its about loving someone and wanting to spend the rest of their lives together-and think of it as completely a legal thing, and it makes me sad. You're doing it for the right reasons.

Sometimes thick skin is very appropriate for PS.

Thumbs up girl! I love to read your posts-you're always so intelligent and empathetic in your posts. I appreciate them.

Indeed. If you're looking for a safe place, the political threads are not it. And for the most part, the ones who can't take the heat have taken their balls and gone home. Please don't let strangers on a board hurt you. They can't you know...unless you let them. I say that as a card-carrying PS 'meanie'.

That said, I do hope you come back. You are the first person I've heard speak at length on this issue and you're clearly well-informed and articulate, which on a forum, is about the only way I can judge the merest thing about you. So far I'm highly impressed. And you have put out some wonderful food for thought. You have helped me solidify MY position from vague feelings (albeit conflicted at times) to a true position backed by solid reason. And for the record, I'm on your side dear. I wish you and your FI the absolute best. Changing the laws is what it is..or should be...all about in this country. The world is turning and things are inevitably changing. This change, like every other, will have ramifications of which we know nothing yet, but I seriously doubt that it will punch a hole in the space-time continuum, so you're good.

Do come back!

Ahhhhhhh, I miss Karen posts!!

Wishful, get your balls back on the table. Rack 'em!

 

[pennquaker09]

Date: 8/7/2008 3:07:44 PM
Author: WishfulThinking
Economics aside, I much prefer talking about the love that gets lost in all of this heated debate.

Love is not an abstract legal issue... it''s peoples'' lives and emotions.


Something about planning to get married and having my legal rights threatened simultaneously collided in this thread. Planning my wedding in one section of the site and having to defend my right to have it in another second. I shouldn''t have come into this thread to begin with, but debater that I am I couldn''t stay out. I learned my lesson about that. I will never take my balls and come home, though. I like to think I can hold my own pretty well... for the most part.

Thanks again for being so understanding.

You are so right and I really think that people that are against equality for us loose site of the big picture. I had to explain the same thing to my own family.

 

[SeattleSweetheart]

Wishful,

I hope you know that it is just a matter of time and this whole marriage debate will be settled. As more and more people realize that all human beings deserve the same rights to love who they want, to live where they want and to pursue employment of their choosing.

My father was gay, and before he died of cancer, my dad was able to marry his boyfriend. My cousin married her wife in Oregon and this September I am attending the wedding of my best friend who will marry his long-time boyfriend in California. I am straight, but I fully support gay rights, which are human rights. If I have anything to say about it someday every single minority person in the U.S.A. will have the exact same rights and opportunities of every straight white man in this country.

Wishful please know that you are not alone and that there are many, many people who believe exactly the way you do. My heart breaks too when I read about people who want to deny human rights to other human beings. Until we all have truly equal rights, none of us is truly free. Please understand the one woman to one man marriage thing is just a trend and like all trends it will change. At one point in marriage trends the catholic church was marrying gay priests to each other calling it the highest and holiest form of marriage.

It''s true, look it up.

Here''s a link to get you started. http://hartforth.com/Marriage.aspx

I do believe in our lifetime legal marriage rights will be expanded to all consenting adults in the U.S.A. and this queer spawn

is actively working to make it happen.