G.W. Bush: Why This Time It''s Different

[AGBF]

People here keep saying that the American people made their choice, implying that those of us who are alarmed should shut up. I'm not about to shut up. Despite the fact that some of you hate quotations, I am going to quote Thomas Friedman writng in "The New York Times". This is not his entire Op-Ed piece, but a small portion of it that says, far more eloquently than I can, why this time it is different.



"Well, as Grandma used to say, at least I still have my health. ...

I often begin writing columns by interviewing myself. I did that
yesterday, asking myself this: Why didn't I feel totally depressed after
George H. W. Bush defeated Michael Dukakis, or even when George W. Bush
defeated Al Gore? Why did I wake up feeling deeply troubled yesterday?

Answer: whatever differences I felt with the elder Bush were over what
was the right policy. There was much he ultimately did that I ended up
admiring. And when George W. Bush was elected four years ago on a
platform of compassionate conservatism, after running from the middle, I
assumed the same would be true with him. (Wrong.) But what troubled me
yesterday was my feeling that this election was tipped because of an
outpouring of support for George Bush by people who don't just favor
different policies than I do - they favor a whole different kind of
America. We don't just disagree on what America should be doing; we
disagree on what America is.

Is it a country that does not intrude into people's sexual preferences
and the marriage unions they want to make? Is it a country that allows a
woman to have control over her body? Is it a country where the line
between church and state bequeathed to us by our Founding Fathers should
be inviolate? Is it a country where religion doesn't trump science? And,
most important, is it a country whose president mobilizes its deep moral
energies to unite us - instead of dividing us from one another and from
the world?"

I have no trouble with Christians (or Muslims or Jews). I have a trouble with being force-fed the morality of others.

 

[Rank Amateur]

Waaaaah.

Your side lost.

Get over it.

Here''s a novel idea: Persuade the American people and you''ll get your way on the issues.

I''ll help you out. Pick any issue and I''ll explain why you are on the wrong side of it. Then you can go about changing my mind and forcing your morality on me.

 

[Nicrez]

I think everyone thinks they are right, or else, they wouldn't think really....

Bush supporters are "right", Kerry Supporters are "right". Everyone has a vision of what the US "should" be, but who really is "right"?

Probably only the people that are realistic enough to know that when things don't go according to your truth, you must continue to fight for it, even if your voice gets lost. It's not about talk, it's about action. It's not about whining, or gloating, it's about knowing that you can't make up a country of diverse citizens without having diversity.

And without diversity, you are fighting a lost cause for gay rights, or women's rights, because you ignore "peoples" rights. Individuals often get supressed for the sake of many. Instead of turning your back and letting someone step on it, stand up, and get out there!

Perfect example was in my town, the local legislation was VERY shady and was collecting bribes in a "pay-to-play" scenario. Some citizens got pissed off and created a mandate that recently passed, getting the crooked politicians that have been in office for too long, OUT!

Actions speak louder than words, and so if you truly value the diversity of the US, use the system set in place for such grievances. I voted for the mandate, and I will actually actively pursue and spearhead if I must, another mandate for betterment of my town, based solely on the fact that almost NO ONE of my age group has, and someone needs to stand up.

 

[AGBF]

R/A-

I have *always* maintained that you have a right to your opinion...no matter HOW stupid it is (and it *always* is). (Plus, you are degenertaing. Since when did "waaaaah" become an English word?)

Deb

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/5/2004 8:48

4 PM
Author: Nicrez

Probably only the people that are realistic enough to know that when things don''t go according to your truth, you must continue to fight for it, even if your voice gets lost. It''s not about talk, it''s about action. It''s not about whining, or gloating, it''s about knowing that you can''t make up a country of diverse citizens without having diversity.

I cannot believe it, Nicrez, but we agree again! That was eloquent. (Don''t worry about my remarks to R/A. We go back 5 years or so and if I don''t insult him he becomes peevish.)

Deb

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/5/2004 7:31:58 PM
Author: Feydakin


Can you explain to me why she would think this??

Not without doing a mental status exam . Sorry.

Your friend,
Deb

 

[Nicrez]

Well, my comments are not isolated to this thread, but to so many people''s reactions to the election all over. So many subjective things in life, Religion, Politics, Morality, Human Rights, that honestly, I don''t understand why people don''t just live and let live on opinions, but go out and make their own difference.

It''s entirely possibly to respectfully disagree. I don''t ALWAYS do it the right way, and sometimes there''s a hot button issue i may just spout off on, but in general I tried to be as even handed as I can be, and consider things from both sides. Actually you may not realize that often times I play devil''s advocate on subjects I disagree with, if I see there is a minority view. I enjoy discussion and differences, and revel in the gusto some people show. I don''t have much tolerance for disrespect though, so that''s usually my hot button issue.

I once had a coworker have a debate with another over religion, and he got so mad, he called the other person a racial slur and a few other choice things. I considered his education top notch and his general breadth of knowledge VAST, but that one phrase just made me sick.

That said, I may be a strong voice in opposition some times, but mostly I enjoy following the battles...

 

[fire&ice]

I''ll help you out. Pick any issue and I''ll explain why you are on the wrong side of it. Then you can go about changing my mind and forcing your morality on me.

Then in a very passive agressive way, take a positive spin to make a very negative point. Over simplify things, make the other person seem like the viotile misguided one; and, when all else fails, call to task someone''s grammer or spelling.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/6/2004 9:35:56 AM
Author: fire&ice

I'll help you out. Pick any issue and I'll explain why you are on the wrong side of it. Then you can go about changing my mind and forcing your morality on me.

Then in a very passive agressive way, take a positive spin to make a very negative point. Over simplify things, make the other person seem like the viotile misguided one; and, when all else fails, call to task someone's grammer or spelling.

F&I,

What you quoted above was not something I said. That was R/A. Did you know that?

Deborah

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/6/2004 7:35:17 AM
Author: Feydakin

Date: 11/5/2004 8:55:55 PM

Author: AGBF


Not without doing a mental status exam . Sorry.


Your friend,

Deb

Deb,


Of all the things in my post this is what you chose to reply to??


Steve - Savior of the masses -

Yes, Steve. That is my response. Sometimes I have more time than others. What I "heard" from you was the story of someone whom you felt was behaving in bizarre and paranoid fashion. You asked me if I could explain it, as if I am resposnible for the thinking of all people who have liberal politics. I did not have a lot of time, so I made that remark. It was meant to condense two thoughts, that:

a) sharing the broad, political point of view of someone else does not mean I have given her reasoning my stamp of approval and

b) that I cannot understand (diagnose) someone I have never met.

 

[AGBF]

F&I-

Since you obviously thought you were quoting me to criticize, when actually you were eviscerating R/A, let me address one of your comments.

I never criticize the grammar or spelling of anyone on any newsgroup unless:

a) That person is a friend and sparring partner of longstanding (as is R/A)

or

b) That person has used grammar *TO* attack me.

I wasn't going to revisit your use of "her" in quotation marks to describe me, but since you mention MY using grammar as a weapon, I will!!!

You "explained" that you wrote "her" about me because you were addressing R/A, not me.

If you write TO Steve, you write "you". Referring to me in quotation marks was NOT to keep others from thinking you were talking to Steve. It was said to disparage me.

What a nerve you have, after doing that to me, to get all worked up because I dared to COMMENT on your pettiness!!!

 

[Rank Amateur]

er and bad speling is always in play during forum disscussions.

The internet has raised the ad hominem attack to an art form.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/6/2004 12

7:31 PM
Author: Feydakin
Ok, let me try this again with out the example..


'I don't recall seeing anyone here implying you should shut up.. In fact, I do recall quite a few people celebratng our diversity and what it makes our country.. I believe that you were the first to start with the I can't believe how 'MY' country voted attitude.. And how you wished yoou could leave but couldn't.. With statements like that, how do you expect those that disagree with you to react?? With a request for you stay, or to suggest you not let the door hit you on the way out?? '

You are correct that in this discussion no one told me to shut up. (R/A implied it, but that is to be expected.) I am sorry if you thought I was referring to this discussion. I was not. I am also fighting on another group and reading newspaper articles advising dissenters that they may leave.

I do not mind people telling me not to let the door hit me on the way out, either. That's free speech.

What I meant (and mean) to say is that I won't shut up (whether or not anyone asks me to) and that if I want to leave it will be on my terms, not anyone else's, since I have a right to be here.

People have every right to try to shut me up and to wish I were gone, but I'm not going to oblige them unless *I* choose to.

Is that clearer? I mean no malice to you, Steve. I really hope that this elucidates my position.

Deborah

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 11/6/2004 11:13:59 AM
Author: AGBF
F&I-

Since you obviously thought you were quoting me to criticize, when actually you were eviscerating R/A, let me address one of your comments.

b) That person has used grammar *TO* attack me.

I wasn''t going to revisit your use of ''her'' in quotation marks to describe me, but since you mention MY using grammar as a weapon, I will!!!

You ''explained'' that you wrote ''her'' about me because you were addressing R/A, not me.

If you write TO Steve, you write ''you''. Referring to me in quotation marks was NOT to keep others from thinking you were talking to Steve. It was said to disparage me.

What a nerve you have, after doing that to me, to get all worked up because I dared to COMMENT on your pettiness!!!

Hummm...read a lot into "" Just to clarify, my response was to Todd. He was the one who more innocently posted the map. He wanted to let it be known it was posted in jest. He didn''t believe it as truth. I wanted him to know that my taken offense was not directed at him.


I''m not even going to comment on my pettiness because clearly I did all that to you.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 11/6/2004 1:11:34 PM
Author: Rank Amateur

Lousey grammer and bad speling is always in play during forum disscussions.




The internet has raised the ad hominem attack to an art form.

And, I''ve always maintained that good grammer & spelling are not virtues.

At least I''m consistent.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/6/2004 4:59:43 PM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 11/6/2004 11:13:59 AM


Just to clarify, my response was to Todd. He was the one who more innocently posted the map.

If only I had known there was an innocent way and a culpable way to post a map, I, too, would have chosen the innocent way!

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/6/2004 6

0:13 PM
Author: Feydakin

Date: 11/6/2004 4:59:43 PM
ight to be here.

Of course it's clear.. It's exactly the way I, and a few others, have been treating you.. So I fail to see the 'issue' you are having..


Steve

OK, Steve. You are clearly a nice guy. I will try to chill out.

Deb

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 11/6/2004 5:29:46 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 11/6/2004 4:59:43 PM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 11/6/2004 11:13:59 AM



Just to clarify, my response was to Todd. He was the one who more innocently posted the map.

If only I had known there was an innocent way and a culpable way to post a map, I, too, would have chosen the innocent way!

Your grammer skills are only trumped by your editing skills.

Note: you failed to quote "He didn''t believe it as truth." The sentiment behind doing something is always more important that the actual deed.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/7/2004 9:50

0 AM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 11/6/2004 5:29:46 PM

Note: you failed to quote 'He didn't believe it as truth.' The sentiment behind doing something is always more important that the actual deed.

I am glad you are not a judge! You wouldn't rule according to whether a law was broken but according to *WHO* broke it; if you liked him; and what you *THOUGHT* he was feeling when he broke it. (I am not talking EVIDENCE here, I am talking your BELIEF!!!)

How the heck do you know what I believed when I posted a map? Or have you added mindreading to your list of skills?

This is what I wrote when I posted the map-EXACTLY!!!!!:

"Another map that might interest you. If this is the one Todd posted I cannot see it on my browser!!"

And it turned out it WAS the one Todd posted. But when *I* posted it you had a fit! An abosolute fit! You were "offended" because the map referred to a population of which you were a part! For God's sake! It was a map of most of North America!!!!! The whole COUNTRY (plus Canada) was satirized in that stupid map, north as well as south! You asked how I would feel if I were called a godless northerner or some such thing. I *WAS*!!! The map labelled EVERYBODY in North America!!! Geez!!!

 

[pricescope]

Democratic Stages of Grief Advisory System form David Weinberger blog

"Good news! We're moving from green to blue!"

 

[fire&ice]

I am glad you are not a judge! You wouldn''t rule according to whether a law was broken but according to *WHO* broke it; if you liked him; and what you *THOUGHT* he was feeling when he broke it. (I am not talking EVIDENCE here, I am talking your BELIEF!!!)

How the heck do you know what I believed when I posted a map? Or have you added mindreading to your list of skills?

This is what I wrote when I posted the map-EXACTLY!!!!!:

''Another map that might interest you. If this is the one Todd posted I cannot see it on my browser!!''

Intent is an issue a judge/jury must wrestle with in life & death situations. "Who" didn''t make a difference to me. But, "what that person''s" intent has been all morning long does go to issue. Please don''t read anything into the ". I am talking to you, just trying to address it the way you expressed.

The mood created on that thread after the election was easily read. And affirmed with your next posts regarding - "It expresses my point of view" I''m not going to bother re-reading the whole thing but you "expressed it as truth". Steve put it far more eloquently than me -(sic) a satire works best when it has some basis of truth & is funny - the map worked neither.

I was offended. Rationalizing me out of it isn''t going to help. You keep trying to tell me how I should feel about that map. If you go back and try to read, it was the straw that broke the camels back." These exist pollsters, which have been sooooo wrong, were irresponsible to lump *all* "moral values" as a reason for voting the way people did. It automatically points squarely to the people who want GW is power because he is going to do the will of God & damn homosexuals - when truth be, 20% expressed that same reason for voting for Kerry. "Moral Values" could mean many things. A "moral value" to someone could be valuing your family''s security.

Maybe you should add mind reading to your skills. Because you''re not willing to listen to a word I have to say.

I''m done with this. I have to pack for a long, cold week in NY. And, I have to explain to an over the top liberal moving from SF where to live for the good school systems. Smack dab in the middle of white bread Jesusland suburbia

I''m hoping they can buy a small house in the city & pay for private school.

And, I even I''m not going to beat this dead horse.

 

[AGBF]

F&I-

The truth is that you don't have a clue about my motives. You are not my psychoanalyst and do not have the insight to be anyone's psychoanalyst. People can feel something holds truth *and* is funny. If satire holds no truth or is not funny it doesn't work. In my opinion this map was both funny *and* true. Not 100% true, or it wouldn't be amusing, right? I mean, if there *were* a "Jesusland" created the map wouldn't be funny. But many people, including me, think it *was* funny. And those of us who do think it is funny because we see the point of it, the part of it that is true.

I do read what you say; you said Steve didn't find it funny, nor did you. Fine. But others DO...and not because they see it as a FACT.

Now you say you are "done with this". Be done or don't be done, as you wish. But don't think you are above the fray. You have been in the thick of it, needling and pontificating every step of the way!

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/7/2004 5:56:42 PM
Author: Feydakin

I find it entertaining to see offensive behavior.. If I say something offensinve to someone, I am a racist, fascist, bigot.. When someone says something I find offensive, I''m told to deal with it.. You can learn a lot about someone by how they react when you tell that they have offended you..

Steve

Are you talking to me? I don''t understand a word of it, so if you are, please explain. Right now I have to go to bed with my Republican, Bush-supporting, right-wing husband who claims to need me in order to sleep. Well...Sylvia Plath said every woman loves a fascist.

 

[AGBF]

A snippet:

"I mean, look at it this way. (If you don't mind, that is.) It's true that people on my side of the divide want to live in a society where women are free to choose abortion and where gay relationships have full civil equality with straight ones. And you want to live in a society where the opposite is true. These are some of those conflicting values everyone is talking about. But at least my values -- as deplorable as I'm sure they are -- don't involve any direct imposition on you. We don't want to force you to have an abortion or to marry someone of the same gender, whereas you do want to close out those possibilities for us. Which is more arrogant?

We on my side of the great divide don't, for the most part, believe that our values are direct orders from God. We don't claim that they are immutable and beyond argument. We are, if anything, crippled by reason and open-mindedness, by a desire to persuade rather than insist. Which philosophy is more elitist? Which is more contemptuous of people who disagree?"


The entire article can be found at:
article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29470-2004Nov5.html

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/9/2004 9:17

2 AM
Author: Feydakin

Except, of course, you want me to pay for those abortions..

Who said I do? You go off on your own rants then fault me for failing to respond to every point in your postings. I picked the very first sentence you wrote to show you why I find it "discouraging" (your word) to try to talk to *YOU*!!!

I just want abortions to be safe and legal for women who choose them. Roe V. Wade didn't make them "free" to anyone!

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/9/2004 12:10:19 PM
Author: Feydakin

First of all, when ''we'' say ''we'' and ''you'' I always assume not Steve and Deb, but ''liberal'' and ''conservative'' as ''we'' (Deb and Steve) see it.. I am not actively attacking any single person, but rather an ideology.. If I choose to attck you, I''ll use your name

Gotcha.

 

[jenwill]

Date: 11/9/2004 9:17

2 AM
Author: Feydakin

You also want to allow my daughter to have an abortion without my knowledge, yet, you are the same people that won''t let her take Tylenol for her migranes because it''s a drug..

You force drug companies to go over seas with extreme lawsuits and class action suits (trial lawyers -Edwards- and the wonderful ACLU come to mind) yet, complain when the price of drugs are too high - and want me to pay for it..

You want cheaper gas, yet we can''t drill in our own territory, forcing us to interact with nations that we don''t like..But protest when we take actions to stabilize a region and try to exert some measure of control over that source..

You demand more money for education, yet the quality of education continues to decline in the absence of holding teachers accountable for their results, while private charter schools run by parents continue to succeed wildly with little or no budget..

You demand that we cloth, feed, and otherwise privde free services, including welfare, to illegal aliens that arrive in our country without job prospects, or the ability to even sepak the dominant language on our nation.. We are no longer the great American melting pot, we are a society of segregated communities whre language and cultural barriers are used to exclude otheres instead of enrichining us all..

And, you are the group that says when I stop at a corner, and actually offer the man with the sign a REAL job instead of giving him $20, am a heartless, uncaring capitalist..

All I want from everyone is that they work hard to be better than they are, contribute to society in a meanigful way, and leave their little space in the world just slightly better than it was when they got here.. Those that want to sit on their asses and cry woe is me, can find somewhere else to live.. I hear France is real nice this time of year..

And for the record, I am pro gay marriage, anti partial birth abortion and abortion as a means of contraception, I do not attend church, but am willing to consider that there may be a god, I think that we should be allowed to pursue natural resources within our own borders in a clean and ecologically managed way, I believe that we should use our strength to eliminate tyrants the world over, and I think that the UN has become the most politically correct organization with the ability to do nothing constructive without our military backing it up..

Steve

The reasons that people support the no parental notification rule for abortions ar varied but can include: pregnancies resulting from familial abuse (not the majority- but can you imagine having to be that teen?), teens who fear being ostracized from their families who may be rabidly anti-abortion/anti-premarital sex- from all religions/non-religions, teens who may- due to their fear of the entire situation- ignore what is happening/hide the pregnancy and then have the baby and dispose of it after it is born, etc, etc. I also would not like it if my child had this procedure without my knowlege- but I would also hope that I had open enough lines of communication to prevent the secrecy.

If your daughter has migraines- you can leave a note with the school and she can get her medicine- there is nothing to hide aobut a migraine. And honestly for a migraine Imitrex works better- have her try that instead- Tylenol is for regular headaches.

Most drug companies did not start here and then move overseas- they were based outside of the US from their inception. And while you may not agree with things that the organization has accomplished, the ACLU has done alot of good for alot of people- primarily to help bring women, people of color, and people with different sexual orientations to a level where they can at least begin to see the possibility of a level playing field.

As for drilling for oil- if we could do it without destroying (or potentially destroying) the areas that we would drill in, then I am OK with it. But I was under the impression that many people were insulted when I said that one of the reasons we were in Iraq, and ''stabilizing'' that region was because of oil. Are you now admitting that the reason we are there is because we are concerned about our oil needs? And I would like not just cheaper gas, but to find an alternate source of energy. Car companies have had the ability to run cars on alternate energies for awhile- but have been discouraged until recently from bringing that techonology to the forefront.

Education in our area has actually suffered due to the ''no child left behind'' rule initiated by our currrent president. Teachers spend so much of their time prepping students for the myriad standard tests that are now demanded by that program that they are not able to actually teach and start the process of critical thinking. This is one instance where I truly don''t understand the howling for smaller government from the right- since they made the influence of government so much larger with their actions.

In my area- which is as much a melting pot as you are going to find anywhere- the majority of those coming to the free clinic for healthcare and food/clothing supplements were not recent imigrants. They were mostly a blend of people that had been US citizens for many generations. The recent imigrants in my community work very hard at very low paying jobs to support themselves. And take great pride in doing so. This crosses many cultures- asian/hispanic/middle eastern/african. They also are the group that I notice push education for their children, and higher learning as the answer.

When you offer the man on the corner a job- I applaud you. Let me know when you hire him- I will send you flowers of thanks just so that you will know that I do not think of you as a heartless, uncaring capitalist.

I am working hard to leave my corner of the world better- I volunteer for roadside clean-up (PEOPLE- QUIT THROWING YOUR CIGARETTES OUT THE WINDOW!), I volunteer for ReBuilding Together to fix up schools, houses, community parks, I give my technical healthcare services for free to clinics, and I would bet that many of the bleeding heart liberals do the same. That is pretty much the mantra of the tree hugger.

To me it sounds as if you are the one crying woe is me...since you are saying that all of the above things negatively impact YOU- and YOU are the one paying for it all. So maybe you should make sure your passport is updated.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/9/2004 12:10:19 PM
Author: Feydakin

When anything is paid for by the government 'we' all pay for it..

Yes. I understand that. But who said the government should pay? Roe v. Wade didn't say the government had to PAY for abortions AT ALL. It just made them safe and legal for women who chose to have them! (As I said, no one asked you to pay for abortions even FOR women who "need them" as you put it. But why do they have to "need" them according to YOUR morals, anyway? Why can't you be content deciding whether you want an abortion yourself? Why do you have to control everybody?)

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/9/2004 12:27:21 PM
Author: jenwill

So maybe you should make sure your passport is updated.

Speaking of passports:

Serious About Canada?

(Note to F&I: I find this a *joke*. I do not take it seriously.)