Feel like a big fat phony

[natascha]

Okay just venting here, you can all just ignore me.

Sometimes I feel like a big fat phony and today is one of those days. Tomorrow I have a 1.5h phone interview for an associate position in London (management consulting) and I feel like a huge fake. I feel like what am I doing here, how on earth have I managed to convince people that I can pull this off. HOW did I pull this off?

I feel that I am somehow using a double degree to hide that I am not worth it. Received my results from my labor law exam (excuse my horrible translation, I am doing a Swedish law degree) yesterday, I had convinced everyone that I had studied and all that jazz when the truth is quite different. I was hoping to just pass and what did I get? A 27,5 out of 30. I did not know the answers, mainly winged a lot of it. People think I am good but I am not and the prospect of people finding out what I really am kinda scares me.

I am pretty quick on my feet, and I abuse it. I will say stuff like I had thought about it before when I have not. I convince people that I am smart and intelligent and I don't really know how. I am writing my bachelors essay ( for my Bs in Business and Economics) with a friend, going into one of the biggest banks in Scandinavia and all of a sudden we are going to have a 4 hour meeting with several of their stakeholders and my friend is freaking out. I convince her that we are on the right track, that we can do this and that I have everything thought out when the truth is my "master plan" was conceived a minute ago. Yes it's good but still, it's not supposed to work that way.

Tomorrow I will be doing case interviews, for real, for the first time of my life. I have no clue what I am going to do.

 

[JulieN]

Many people wish they had this talent.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Oh Natascha. I think you are being far too hard on yourself. Is it possible that you ARE as good as everyone thinks? That you are intelligen, with amazing people skills, and have great instinct? Be gentle with yourself. Be kind. Be supportive. How could so many people be wrong about you?

Good luck tomorrow. Don't forget to breathe.

 

[decodelighted]

Newsflash: all bright girls feel this way. Also, pretending to know what you're doing is the only way to learn how to do something. Everyone else is BSing all the time too. Including 99% of all men. Men are just somehow taught that it is okay to BS ... where women think they're doing something "wrong". And believe good test scores MUST be a "mistake". And that if they didn't study then they don't deserve to succeed. Or if they didn't work hard for hours and hours, they don't deserve to be "right".

One day you'll learn to relax into your natural gifts & won't feel like such a freak or fraud.

Here's an article you might find helpful.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/heidi-grant-halvorson-phd/girls-confidence_b_828418.html


ETA: And here's a tip I learned from my attorney sister, who learned it from a law professor ... I hope I'm phrasing it correctly. He told her to label any nervousness or physical symptoms of nervousness (stomach upset, sweating etc) before a big presentation: The Anxiety of Excellence. It helps her remember that its something all people doing intimidating things face, no matter how experienced or prepared they are. Its just a natural old part of being a human being in a human body. Just a routine, manageable side effect of attempting Excellence.

 

[Circe]

Ditto to Deco.

What you're talking about is Impostor Syndrome. It's more prevalent among women (gee, I wonder why?) and it almost always manifests among the highest-achieving.

For what it's worth, I feel it, too. I'm an Ivy-educated, fellowship holding, tenure-track professor ... and one of the things that I learned early on was that I was good enough to leave things until the last minute. The hardest thing to learn was discipline (and, frankly, it's also the easiest thing to lose my grip on - the one comfort being that I know I can pull my fat out of the fire when I need to, even if its only with seconds to spare).

For what it's worth, my husband (coincidentally also a Swede) is also a consultant, and from what I know about their interview processes, the field values intellect and raw talent as or more highly than they do background. On the case interviews? Thinking outside of the box is pretty damn valuable, and that's the sort of thing you can't exactly prep for. Oh, and though I get the feeling you're past this point in the interviewing process ... if/when they ask for an interesting story - Your Greatest Work-Related Success Story, or whatever - give them the most interesting one, and not the one that just puts you in the best light. As far as I can tell, the biggest common denominator between consultants is tied for an ability to sniff out BS vs. a really short attention span ....

 

[natascha]

JuliN- Thank you,although I am not sure that BS qualifies as a talent, it can get you into a hot mess sometimes.

Tacori- Lovely pep talk, I am grateful for you taking the time to make me feel better. You seem like a very warm person.

Deco- I so needed that, even though my mind was saying nuhu everyone else is good, study hard and don't BS. I know that you are right and I needed to hear it.
Very interesting article, not completely my case since my mom brand of raising us was " you can be whatever you want to be, you can do anything if you work hard enough" and my grandma was an incredible inspiration, first woman taxi driver in the north of Sweden, learnt to drive ambulances at 55, etc.
Good one about Excellence, will try to rememberer it for my speech tomorrow, I dislike speeches especially in front of small crowds. Much prefer presentationes like tonnight, in front of 150 people, all you need to do is remove your glasses and then they are all a blur

Circe- "and one of the things that I learned early on was that I was good enough to leave things until the last minute. The hardest thing to learn was discipline (and, frankly, it's also the easiest thing to lose my grip on - the one comfort being that I know I can pull my fat out of the fire when I need to, even if its only with seconds to spare)." That is exactly who I am and I really struggle with discipline. It feels like I never learn since I always manage to save the bacon but it makes me feel guilty and a fraud.

Yay for the Swedes, great tip by the way. Thank you for writing, it calmed me down. Always good to know it has a name, right?

 

[rosetta]

Um.

You need to speak to a doctor to truly understand Imposter Syndrome.

And i don't mean as a patient.

I have never failed a clinical exam.

The last exam i passed i got the highest mark in the country and a coveted award.

I have published papers.

I still sometimes stand in front of a patient's chart and wonder what in the world i'm doing there.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Thanks Natascha. I just believe you become what you believe about yourself. Self-talk is very powerful. Be positive. Believe in yourself. Maybe it would be helpful to speak with a therapist and explore why your self-esteem is so low.

 

[iota15]

I wouldn't say her self-esteem is low just because she's feeling this way. I think everyone does to a certain extent. I know I can pull off miracles when the pressure is on, and time is tight, and pull it off real well. So guess what happens?

Forget feeling like an imposter and just bask in the fact you have some natural talent. Yes, one day perhaps, you will be put to task - and one day, your talent alone won't be enough to pull you through. So use that fear, and use it wisely, to push yourself into putting in effort and doing more.

 

[kenny]

One of the things I learned when I was in psychoanalysis was that some of the most successful and effective people the world has ever seen felt confessed in private that they felt like impostors.

You are in good company.
Relax. Just live.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Since everyone has addressed the anxiety and impostor side (and I agree with everyone), let me give you a few tips for the interview:

- showing your thinking process is a lot more important than getting the answer right.
- ask a lot of questions, try your line of thought out on the interviewer and try to pick up on their cues to see if you are going in the right direction
- the big 5 consultancies have examples of case interviews on their recruiting websites (I know for sure that Bain and McKinsey do, I imagine the others do as well). Read through that material. It will help you prepare, steady your nerves and it shows. To the interviewer, this is important,a s it shows preparation and commitment. Not doing this sends a subtle sign that you might also try to wing a client presentation.

 

[mrscushion]

You'll make a GREAT management consultant, coming up with master plans on the spot and putting up a calm, confident face to defend them. Thinking on your feet is one of the greatest gifts you can have in the business world.

It's well known that high achievers often feel like phonies and are just wondering when someone is going "find out the truth" about them. It's more common in women than in men.

Personally, I went to top undergrad and b-schools, am on a strong career path and also a management consultant -- and I secretly think I'm pretty stupid and hope people won't notice.

For the interviews, just think structure, structure, structure. Don't start talking until you've grouped your thoughts into a structure.

I used David Ohrvall (ex Bainie)'s Crack the Case prep book and found it very useful.

 

[kelpie]

My motto has always fake it till you make it! Do your homework ahead of time so you sound like you know what you are talking about. Confidence and resourcefulness will get you everywhere and they'll be glad they hired you.

 

[mousey]

I used to feel like this all the time when I started my grad studies. I felt everyone else was BRILLIANT, and any day now they would find out that I was just pretending. That feeling got worse, the better my results became. I used to get on everyone's nerves... I 'd start every sentence w/ 'I could be wrong...', 'I'm no expert' 'Others here know far better'. My supervisor convinced me one day it was a way of getting attention- playing myself down so others would say 'no, but you are brilliant...' etc. That, together with the realization that everyone is pretending got rid of a large amount of my insecurity. To a certain extent I think something like this feeling might be what makes you so good. I reckon the moment you truly believe you know everything is the moment you stop learning. My mom recently asked me if I had learned anything from the last years. If I have its that you should never believe your own BS. We all do it- we all project an image of ourselves that is not necessarily totally true. But I think you are lost the moment you completely buy into that image.
Don t worry- most women I know feel like this. Its totally natural, and I think, in a way, its beneficial.

 

[natascha]

Well I survived, as in I am still alive. Definitely failed the second interview and I discovered that I do NOT like phone interviews. The connection was bad so I kept hearing my voice echoing which threw me off. I was not prepared and I fell like it was pretty evident.

The first one went fine, but not the second one. The second started ok but then she asked me to describe a problematic situation, break down how I handled it and tell what the results were. Not a hard question but for some reason I blanked and after that I got nervous so when we got to the case part and it was about petrol, I don't drive a car, no clue how much petrol is needed, etc. Normally not a problem but I was nervous and just felt that oh no this is not good. I had no clue how to translate gallons into liters and was pretty much making wild assumptions. She even had to ask me if me results were reasonable for me to get that the numbers given in the beginning, 1000 petrol stations for 50 million people were pretty ridiculous. Oh and my English went down the drain and I could not come up with the words.

Rosetta- thank you for sharing that, puts everything in perspective to think about that it is normal to feel this way. See I can't even be special in this

Tacori- Thank you again and don't worry I normally dont' have problems with self esteem. Heck, normally I am like, I am fabulous and if anyone does not get it then there is something wrong with them

Iota- seems like there is an epidemic of smart cookies doing stuff at the last minute here at Pricescope. Great words, I will remember them.

Kenny- so you are saying that you are one of the most successful and effective people in the world? Knew there had to be some secret in order to achieve your diamond collection.
Could I ask you a favor? Can you have a little chat with my SO and convince him of the need for him to get a stunning sparkly like yours (ok but in junior version, still can't afford your beauty's). I could only convince him to get three measly 0.04ct in his ring.

Lady Disdain- thank you for the tips, will copy paste them. Do you have any tips for cues on the phone? I don't have problems with face to face interviews but I found the phone interviews odd.

Mscushion- Thank you for the pep and for relating your own background. Will have to think, see mscushion did it, so can I, I found that I got stressed when on the phone and did not feel like I could pause. Need to work on that. Do you agree that one should begin by explaining what I aim to do? Totally forgot that I was supposed to do that. Will look up that book.

Kelpie- I love your motto! Thank you.

Mousey- Thank you for taking the time to respond. You are definitely right and I will have to keep that in mind. I had a great teacher that did not approve of the typical feminine traits when presenting your opinion and among other things taught me to not preface what I knew with those type of things. I am very grateful for that since I realize that a lo of young women struggle with that. I was doing the rewrite of a project a couple of days ago where we were four girls writing. You have no idea the amount of times I had to remove: we believe, we think, our opinion... In some cases it is good to use that but not when presenting an industry analysis and facts.

 

[mrscushion]

I'm sorry your interview didn't go well! Phone interviews are soooooo hard! I know in the past I have been able to change a phone interview to an in-person interview ... but that's not easy, particularly not for the first round.

I think pausing to collect your thoughts is pretty important during the interviews. Just say "let me take a moment to think about this." Jumping free flow into your ideas and thoughts -- while perhaps just the *right* thing to do when interviewing for other jobs -- is a no-no in consulting interviews.

And yes, I think taking a minute to explain to the interviewer how you're approaching the case and plan to solve it is crucial.

In any case, I wouldn't get discouraged. Case interviews take practice. In fact, if you have more of them coming up and you are really interested in a career in consulting, you may wish to get together with other students and give each other mock interviews to practice.

 

[natascha]

Well, apparently I was not as horrible as I thought. I passed to the final round of interviews and they want to know when I can make it.

I just don't know what to do. It would be good experience to do a couple more case interviews and a trip to London is always nice, it just feels wrong to lead them on since I do not think I want to sign with them.

Currently it looks like I will do my masters directly after my Bachelor. I have always wanted to do a CEMS MIM and for that I need my Masters, also that way I can finish of my law degree. The thing is that my SO would prefer to stay in Sweden and from what I understand of their pay package I do not think it is worth it. It is not set in stone but I think they would have a hard time convincing me to join.

Would it be horrible to fly down anyway?

 

[natascha]

I'm sorry your interview didn't go well! Phone interviews are soooooo hard! I know in the past I have been able to change a phone interview to an in-person interview ... but that's not easy, particularly not for the first round.

I think pausing to collect your thoughts is pretty important during the interviews. Just say "let me take a moment to think about this." Jumping free flow into your ideas and thoughts -- while perhaps just the *right* thing to do when interviewing for other jobs -- is a no-no in consulting interviews.

And yes, I think taking a minute to explain to the interviewer how you're approaching the case and plan to solve it is crucial.

In any case, I wouldn't get discouraged. Case interviews take practice. In fact, if you have more of them coming up and you are really interested in a career in consulting, you may wish to get together with other students and give each other mock interviews to practice.

I would not have been able to change the phone interview to an in person one since they are not a fan of flying you down for the first round.

Thank you for your tips, I am really going to use them. I do believe that it was great that my first case interview was not for my dream job, so maybe it was good that I was so bad on this one?

I know this makes me sound like a brat but after the interview I gave the fact that they are still interested kind of makes me not want to work with them. Am I wrong? I just worry that if I went through with, in my opinion a horrible interview, who else is going through?

The only person I know that has interviewed with them signed with BCG instead, so I don't know anyone who could tell me what type of people work for them. I did chat a bit with one interviewer about how chemistry is an acceptable mayor in the UK, Chemistry at Oxford is not to bad right?

 

[mrscushion]

Congrats on getting through to final round.

Like I said, the best thing you can do to prepare for consulting interviews is practice and more practice, so I would say go for the London final round, you have nothing to lose and some to gain - you might like the people you meet and at worst, you get experience interviewing.

I can't really comment on your Groucho Marx syndrome (won't join a club that'll have you), except that, again, I have seen that before in talented people. Given that you haven't been offered a job yet, I'd say hold your horses. Also, your data set of people who got offered jobs there / who work there is extremely small. I'd say get some more data before making a harsh judgment on them.

Getting your master's right away sounds like a solid plan and is certainly what many (most?) people do in Europe after getting their bachelor's and before entering the working world. In my opinion, consulting is a skill set you should gain as early as you can -- the analytical skills are a fantastic foundation for any business career, but when you leave consulting (assuming you will eventually leave, like most people), you will not have run any actual business, or business department, or actual business task, yet. So there is that career to build -- and that takes time, too.

Take all these opinions as one data point, but those are my thoughts.

 

[natascha]

Congrats on getting through to final round.

Like I said, the best thing you can do to prepare for consulting interviews is practice and more practice, so I would say go for the London final round, you have nothing to lose and some to gain - you might like the people you meet and at worst, you get experience interviewing.

I can't really comment on your Groucho Marx syndrome (won't join a club that'll have you), except that, again, I have seen that before in talented people. Given that you haven't been offered a job yet, I'd say hold your horses. Also, your data set of people who got offered jobs there / who work there is extremely small. I'd say get some more data before making a harsh judgment on them.

Getting your master's right away sounds like a solid plan and is certainly what many (most?) people do in Europe after getting their bachelor's and before entering the working world. In my opinion, consulting is a skill set you should gain as early as you can -- the analytical skills are a fantastic foundation for any business career, but when you leave consulting (assuming you will eventually leave, like most people), you will not have run any actual business, or business department, or actual business task, yet. So there is that career to build -- and that takes time, too.

Take all these opinions as one data point, but those are my thoughts.

I really enjoy your posts. I want to thank you for the reality check, you have a great way of bringing me back down to earth with a smile on my face and feeling like I have learnt something.

I find it funny that I am being so typical, at the same time doubting myself but also thinking that I am the best. It is pretty fascinating how our thought process works.

Except for a cousin I am the first in my family to attend university so I do not have people in my vicinity that have gone through this. People in school, you probably know the drill, only those close to you talk somewhat honestly about the choices we are making and everyone is trying to justify their choices, be it banking, consulting or continuing with a masters. That is one of the reasons tat I really appreciate your posts, gives me hope that there is something sane at the end of the tunnel

 

[mrscushion]

Glad I can help somewhat. Sorry to hear about your classmates not being "real" with you. They are probably pretty confused. You guys probably have a lot of options and you really want to make the right choice.

What if you contacted a few alumni of your school that went into different directions (master's, work, etc.) and are a few years out of school, to get their input and perspective? Can your career services department put you in touch, perhaps?

It's pretty cool that you're the first to attend university. Your family must be extremely proud of you!

If I may ask, what is your SO planning to do after school? Is he also graduating?

 

[partgypsy]

Late to the party but I have felt this way in the past. When I was applying for colleges and doing in-person interviews, both my sister and I got accepted before they had even received all of our paperwork (like references) and for the other we were both awarded 4 year scholarships, primarily based on the interview. In graduate school, doing masters and also dissertation defense, I was complimented how prepared I was. In contrast in both of those situations the only thing I felt I was doing is I knew or suspected what people wanted me to say, what THEY thought would be a good answer, and said those things.

Now that I've had both successes AND failures in my past, and realizing that success is only partially predicated on one's talent, I don't take myself seriously either way . Sometimes things roll with you, and sometimes no matter how hard you try they don't, so take advantage of any opportunities you do get coming your way.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Natasha, I know you think you failed the second interview, but it's very likely you didn't because you're focusing on the negative. I had a similar case study when interviewing for my job. They asked me to calculate something very broad, then I had to figure out the assumptions and get to the final figure myself. Along the way, I miscalculated something and knew that my final answer was way off. I remember calling my husband afterward and telling him how I blew it. When I got the offer, I was very surprised, and I talked with the guy who interviewed me about it after I started working. He said he didn't care about the calculation itself, but he liked the way I tackled the problem and thought through it without getting flustered.

Anyway, my point is that they likely don't care about the number of liters or gallons, but they wanted to assess your problem-solving skills and see how you thought through the problem.

I have no advice as to whether you should pursue it, but just wanted to tell you the interview may not have gone as poorly as you thought (especially since they are still interested).

I can also relate to how you feel. I often joke that I have no idea how I ended up working with such brilliant people and say that I'm not the smartest, just the most fun to work with.