Dahrun Ravi--30 DAYS in jail! Your thoughts?

[aljdewey]

A bit more on meeting the "repeated" barometer, from the article in Slate:

"He (Tyler's father) mentioned how often Clementi checked the Twitter page where Ravi braggingly posted his spying plans as evidence of how disturbed his son was by his roommate’s salacious bid for attention."

 

[HollyS]

1) banned from any and every U.S. university
no classes, no degree, no diploma, no way

2) deportation if he is an 'of age' adult, regardless of where his family lives; not a citizen, well then, "Buh-bye".
Same goes for any non-citizen family member who would raise a stink about it; "See ya".

3) but first, maybe one year in prison for involuntary manslaughter. Where HE can be the object of ugly behavior from others. (It's hard to find innocuous euphamisms for that.)



Seems fair.

 

[iheartscience]

I see those bolded points more than satisified in this case:

Imbalance of power: There is one. Ravi has information that can bring ridicule upon Tyler; Tyler doesn't have information that can bring ridicule onto Ravi. Ravi has willing climate of intolerane in which to exploit that information; Tyler doesn't.

Habitual/repeated: 1. Tweeted intolerance about gay roommate. 2) Set up web cam to tape said roommate. 3) BROADCAST the encounter on the internet when it was live. 4). Two days later (in anticipation of second encounter), broadcast *again* .....with enough advance notice that virtually would have guaranteed an even wider audience. 5) TRY to broadcast again - only reason not successful is because Tyler knew he was being taped and thwarted it.

I think your facts here are a bit off, as they were in your post about administration response. Here's a timeline of events:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/24/dharun-ravi-tyler-clementi-timeline_n_1297056.html

The sum total of everything I've read about Ravi is that he's definitely got an arrogant, immature, pr*ck side to him. Is that his only side? I don't know; I hope not for humanity's sake. When I first heard about this case, my thought was what he did was beyond the pale despicable.I thought he *outed* a gay young man in the worst way possible. After reading more about what actually happened, it has tempered my view. What Ravi did was absolutely unacceptable, illegal and immoral, but he wasn't doing it to someone who presented himself as a fragile person newly discovering his sexuality. Clementi had no problem asking Ravi, just a couple of weeks into the school year, to leave the room so that he could have privacy with a 25 year-old outsider. Maybe to Ravi this spoke of confidence in his (Clementi's) sexuality and maybe Ravi's actions were borne more out of jealousy of that than malicious intent?

I'm trying to imagine this scenario with my own 18 year old daughter who most of the time is a solid person but is sometimes a haughty PITA. If she was peeved that her roommate was kicking her out so that she could have sex with a 25 year old, might my daughter do something so stupid? (And by "something" I'm talking about what actually happened according to published timelines.)

eta: In full disclosure, I should add that as someone who has had an immediate family member commit suicide, I have a tendency to sympathize with people who are blamed for the suicide of others.

This exactly-I could imagine plenty of dumb kids doing the same thing to their roommates in college. That doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't mean that Ravi was a monster who was hellbent on destroying Clementi's life.

 

[Missy]

I see those bolded points more than satisified in this case:

Imbalance of power: There is one. Ravi has information that can bring ridicule upon Tyler; Tyler doesn't have information that can bring ridicule onto Ravi. Ravi has willing climate of intolerane in which to exploit that information; Tyler doesn't.

Habitual/repeated: 1. Tweeted intolerance about gay roommate. 2) Set up web cam to tape said roommate. 3) BROADCAST the encounter on the internet when it was live. 4). Two days later (in anticipation of second encounter), broadcast *again* .....with enough advance notice that virtually would have guaranteed an even wider audience. 5) TRY to broadcast again - only reason not successful is because Tyler knew he was being taped and thwarted it.

I think your facts here are a bit off, as they were in your post about administration response. Here's a timeline of events:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/24/dharun-ravi-tyler-clementi-timeline_n_1297056.html

The sum total of everything I've read about Ravi is that he's definitely got an arrogant, immature, pr*ck side to him. Is that his only side? I don't know; I hope not for humanity's sake. When I first heard about this case, my thought was what he did was beyond the pale despicable.I thought he *outed* a gay young man in the worst way possible. After reading more about what actually happened, it has tempered my view. What Ravi did was absolutely unacceptable, illegal and immoral, but he wasn't doing it to someone who presented himself as a fragile person newly discovering his sexuality. Clementi had no problem asking Ravi, just a couple of weeks into the school year, to leave the room so that he could have privacy with a 25 year-old outsider. Maybe to Ravi this spoke of confidence in his (Clementi's) sexuality and maybe Ravi's actions were borne more out of jealousy of that than malicious intent?

I'm trying to imagine this scenario with my own 18 year old daughter who most of the time is a solid person but is sometimes a haughty PITA. If she was peeved that her roommate was kicking her out so that she could have sex with a 25 year old, might my daughter do something so stupid? (And by "something" I'm talking about what actually happened according to published timelines.)

eta: In full disclosure, I should add that as someone who has had an immediate family member commit suicide, I have a tendency to sympathize with people who are blamed for the suicide of others.

This exactly-I could imagine plenty of dumb kids doing the same thing to their roommates in college. That doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't mean that Ravi was a monster who was hellbent on destroying Clementi's life.

Yeah, not so much for me. I cannot imagine ever doing something like this in college or any other situation and same for my friends and everyone I know. I am not trying to sound self righteous or anything but seriously I don't (thankfully) know anyone who would/could behave like this. I am not saying he is a monster but what he did was monstrous. Abominable. And the punishment does not fit the crime IMO.

1) banned from any and every U.S. university
no classes, no degree, no diploma, no way

2) deportation if he is an 'of age' adult, regardless of where his family lives; not a citizen, well then, "Buh-bye".
Same goes for any non-citizen family member who would raise a stink about it; "See ya".

3) but first, maybe one year in prison for involuntary manslaughter. Where HE can be the object of ugly behavior from others. (It's hard to find innocuous euphamisms for that.)



Seems fair.

I agree. That would be fair.

 

[Aoife]

I see those bolded points more than satisified in this case:

Imbalance of power: There is one. Ravi has information that can bring ridicule upon Tyler; Tyler doesn't have information that can bring ridicule onto Ravi. Ravi has willing climate of intolerane in which to exploit that information; Tyler doesn't.

Habitual/repeated: 1. Tweeted intolerance about gay roommate. 2) Set up web cam to tape said roommate. 3) BROADCAST the encounter on the internet when it was live. 4). Two days later (in anticipation of second encounter), broadcast *again* .....with enough advance notice that virtually would have guaranteed an even wider audience. 5) TRY to broadcast again - only reason not successful is because Tyler knew he was being taped and thwarted it.

I think your facts here are a bit off, as they were in your post about administration response. Here's a timeline of events:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/24/dharun-ravi-tyler-clementi-timeline_n_1297056.html

The sum total of everything I've read about Ravi is that he's definitely got an arrogant, immature, pr*ck side to him. Is that his only side? I don't know; I hope not for humanity's sake. When I first heard about this case, my thought was what he did was beyond the pale despicable.I thought he *outed* a gay young man in the worst way possible. After reading more about what actually happened, it has tempered my view. What Ravi did was absolutely unacceptable, illegal and immoral, but he wasn't doing it to someone who presented himself as a fragile person newly discovering his sexuality. Clementi had no problem asking Ravi, just a couple of weeks into the school year, to leave the room so that he could have privacy with a 25 year-old outsider. Maybe to Ravi this spoke of confidence in his (Clementi's) sexuality and maybe Ravi's actions were borne more out of jealousy of that than malicious intent?

I'm trying to imagine this scenario with my own 18 year old daughter who most of the time is a solid person but is sometimes a haughty PITA. If she was peeved that her roommate was kicking her out so that she could have sex with a 25 year old, might my daughter do something so stupid? (And by "something" I'm talking about what actually happened according to published timelines.)

eta: In full disclosure, I should add that as someone who has had an immediate family member commit suicide, I have a tendency to sympathize with people who are blamed for the suicide of others.

This exactly-I could imagine plenty of dumb kids doing the same thing to their roommates in college. That doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't mean that Ravi was a monster who was hellbent on destroying Clementi's life.

Yeah, not so much for me. I cannot imagine ever doing something like this in college or any other situation and same for my friends and everyone I know. I am not trying to sound self righteous or anything but seriously I don't (thankfully) know anyone who would/could behave like this. I am not saying he is a monster but what he did was monstrous. Abominable. And the punishment does not fit the crime IMO.

1) banned from any and every U.S. university
no classes, no degree, no diploma, no way

2) deportation if he is an 'of age' adult, regardless of where his family lives; not a citizen, well then, "Buh-bye".
Same goes for any non-citizen family member who would raise a stink about it; "See ya".

3) but first, maybe one year in prison for involuntary manslaughter. Where HE can be the object of ugly behavior from others. (It's hard to find innocuous euphamisms for that.)



Seems fair.

I agree. That would be fair.

All of the above.

Seriously, in what universe is filming anyone having sex, soliciting viewers, and posting it on the internet not depraved and vicious?

 

[aljdewey]

I could imagine plenty of dumb kids doing the same thing to their roommates in college. That doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't mean that Ravi was a monster who was hellbent on destroying Clementi's life.

I don't personally think he was hellbent on destroying Tyler's life. I think he was trying to make him targeted and uncomfortable enough to ask for a change in roommates so he wouldn't have to room with Tyler anymore.

Regardless, his actions have consequences, and I'd feel that way even if Tyler had merely changed rooms and was still alive. R engaged in behavior that was not only uncompassionate but unlawful, and the sentencing guidelines were there to punish that behavior much more than it was. I'm guessing that this kid has counted on the mere 'slap on the wrist', and I'd be willing to bet that similar past slaps have contributed to the arrogant young man he is today. But that's speculation on my part.

 

[VapidLapid]

Imagine Tyler hadn't killed himself. Ravi would still be guilty of all the crimes the jury decided on. He would have gotten 3-5 years and then been deported. Which is what he should have gotten.

 

[Kaleigh]

I will state as I did before, 30 days isn't enough. What is enough?? I don't know. But he was intent on humiliating him, via web cam and what ever tweets he put out there... So there was pent up anger, which you could say some was premeditated.. He knew he was gay, exploited that, and in the end the guy takes his life.

How is that OK?? I am not saying he made him take his life. But gosh, 30 days sure seems like a slap on the wrist to me.

The message sent to kids who are gay?? No one will be there for you. SO not true, but some may feel that way...

Think if you were him and how he felt..

As a parent we taught our kids to be accepting, kind and compassionate and if someone was having a hard time they could always come to us for help since we have been through this.

 

[Imdanny]

If we're doing definitions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying

"Bullying is a form of aggressive behavior manifested by the use of force or coercion to affect others, particularly when the behavior is habitual and involves an imbalance of power. It can include verbal harassment, physical assault or coercion and may be directed repeatedly towards particular victims, perhaps on grounds of race, religion, gender, sexuality, or ability.[2][3] The "imbalance of power" may be social power and/or physical power. The victim of bullying is sometimes referred to as a "target"."

The bolding is mine. When I think of bullying, including vicious bullying, the above is what I think of. Clearly I'm outnumbered on this one, and that's fine. Again, I'm not defending Ravi. I'm saying that after reading the New Yorker article, I looked at the situation a different way.

The article posted by ksinger also speaks to this: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...t_sentence_for_spying_on_tyler_clementi_.html

ETA and another article that speaks to the sentencing: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/opinion/make-the-punishment-fit-the-cyber-crime.html?_r=1

I'm sorry but what "different way" did you look at it? How would you describe Ravi's actions (the ones that landed him in court)?

 

[Imdanny]

If we're doing definitions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying

"Bullying is a form of aggressive behavior manifested by the use of force or coercion to affect others, particularly when the behavior is habitual and involves an imbalance of power. It can include verbal harassment, physical assault or coercion and may be directed repeatedly towards particular victims, perhaps on grounds of race, religion, gender, sexuality, or ability.[2][3] The "imbalance of power" may be social power and/or physical power. The victim of bullying is sometimes referred to as a "target"."

The bolding is mine. When I think of bullying, including vicious bullying, the above is what I think of. Clearly I'm outnumbered on this one, and that's fine. Again, I'm not defending Ravi. I'm saying that after reading the New Yorker article, I looked at the situation a different way.

The article posted by ksinger also speaks to this: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...t_sentence_for_spying_on_tyler_clementi_.html

ETA and another article that speaks to the sentencing: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/opinion/make-the-punishment-fit-the-cyber-crime.html?_r=1

I agree with you. I think Ravi was an insensitive jerk and a generally not nice person. But I don't think he was bullying. But then again I think the term "bullying" is way overused these days.

You can be "insensitive", a "jerk", and "generally not a nice person" without targeting a specific individual and taking criminal actions against them. If what Ravi did to this young man isn't bullying against gay people I'd hate to imagine what you think might be.

 

[Imdanny]

1) banned from any and every U.S. university
no classes, no degree, no diploma, no way

2) deportation if he is an 'of age' adult, regardless of where his family lives; not a citizen, well then, "Buh-bye".
Same goes for any non-citizen family member who would raise a stink about it; "See ya".

3) but first, maybe one year in prison for involuntary manslaughter. Where HE can be the object of ugly behavior from others. (It's hard to find innocuous euphamisms for that.)



Seems fair.

I don't think he can be held criminally liable for the death but I see no reason why he shouldn't be in a jail for a year with the general population and then thrown out of this country on his sorry ass.

I also don't see how the school doesn't expel him or how another accepts him. It would be wrong to give a place to this criminal when there are others who are being turned away.

 

[Imdanny]

This NYT articles says 5 to 10 year sentences are associated with these charges.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/nyregion/Some-Gay-Rights-Advocates-Question-Rutgers-Sentencing.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

If that's true, why did Ravi get 1 month?

 

[VapidLapid]

This NYT articles says 5 to 10 year sentences are associated with these charges.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/nyregion/Some-Gay-Rights-Advocates-Question-Rutgers-Sentencing.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

If that's true, why did Ravi get 1 month?

I think the sentence in itself constitutes bullying by the judge, of all gay people.

 

[Imdanny]

I couldn't agree more. He was convicted on 15 counts including 2 felonies, and he gets 1 month when people normally get years. That's disgraceful and I hope the procecutors' appeal is successful.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

I'm definitely not a lawyer, but my guess as to why the leniency probably has to do with his age, it probably being his first crime, possibly that he has a different cultural background. Again, that would only be my guess, I don't know what the judge thought.

Like previous posters have said, it is very dangerous grounds to say he is guilty and culpable for someone else's suicide. It sets a very scary precedent for many reasons, emotionally and legally. As much as we might viscerally want to blame him and his actions as direct cause, saying "clearly he caused it" would be a drastic oversimplification. And it could have a very dangerous consequence of leading to more suicides if it became precedent that killing yourself in response to bullying would get the person bullying you a drastically more severe sentence. That was basically what used to happen a few hundred years ago in China, if a woman was raped and wanted to guarantee the man she was accusing was punished, she would take her own life. A fact that was taken into consideration when determining guilt. So I would worry that some young adults, amid the emotional turmoil of harassment, would think "You know what, I'll kill myself and blame X in a suicide note and ruin his life." Also, if you can start legally charging people for manslaughter in suicide cases, I could see the line getting hazy very quickly. What about parents that disown their children for their sexuality? Should there be legal consequence to the stress that they contributed that might have led to suicide?

While I do think 30 days is a slap on the wrist and woefully light, I think being outed to this entire country as being a horrible, malicious person will ruin his chances of having a life in America, if not everywhere. He now has a criminal record and a very public hate crime case. So even if he's not serving additional jail time, whatever bright future he might have had is basically down the drain.