capital punishment

[Arkteia]

And, Deb... I did not know if I should even post this question for fear of another misunderstanding, but I hope it won't happen. I wonder if our views on capital punishment are somewhat shaped by our beliefs. You mentioned Quaker roots. I have read "the Charioteer" and understand what you are talking about, if only marginally. There is an immense belief in the sanctity of human life among Quakers.

There are many people who know that they will meet their beloved ones in another, better, life. It is a huge consolation and maybe, maybe feeling that the person dear to you has not been taken from you forever, helps to accept. But how about people who simply do not know if this meeting will ever happen?

Monarch - I think you expressed very well. You seem to be a very positive person. Always supportive.

 

[monarch64]

And, Deb... I did not know if I should even post this question for fear of another misunderstanding, but I hope it won't happen. I wonder if our views on capital punishment are somewhat shaped by our beliefs. You mentioned Quaker roots. I have read "the Charioteer" and understand what you are talking about, if only marginally. There is an immense belief in the sanctity of human life among Quakers.

There are many people who know that they will meet their beloved ones in another, better, life. It is a huge consolation and maybe, maybe feeling that the person dear to you has not been taken from you forever, helps to accept. But how about people who simply do not know if this meeting will ever happen?

Monarch - I think you expressed very well. You seem to be a very positive person. Always supportive.

Thank you, Crasru, for your kind words. I try to be a fair person. I really appreciate you starting this thread and making us think seriously about an issue that involves a lot of thought. At the beginning, I was wavering. Now, I feel like I have searched not only my soul, but have obtained knowledge through the internet and real life perspectives with the help of my relatives and friends, and have come to the conclusion that I oppose the death penalty. This is why I love PS: sometimes I am forced to think about things which I otherwise might have not. Thanks again and do take care.

 

[Trekkie]

And, Deb... I did not know if I should even post this question for fear of another misunderstanding, but I hope it won't happen. I wonder if our views on capital punishment are somewhat shaped by our beliefs. You mentioned Quaker roots. I have read "the Charioteer" and understand what you are talking about, if only marginally. There is an immense belief in the sanctity of human life among Quakers.

There are many people who know that they will meet their beloved ones in another, better, life. It is a huge consolation and maybe, maybe feeling that the person dear to you has not been taken from you forever, helps to accept. But how about people who simply do not know if this meeting will ever happen?

Monarch - I think you expressed very well. You seem to be a very positive person. Always supportive.

Thank you, Crasru, for your kind words. I try to be a fair person. I really appreciate you starting this thread and making us think seriously about an issue that involves a lot of thought. At the beginning, I was wavering. Now, I feel like I have searched not only my soul, but have obtained knowledge through the internet and real life perspectives with the help of my relatives and friends, and have come to the conclusion that I oppose the death penalty. This is why I love PS: sometimes I am forced to think about things which I otherwise might have not. Thanks again and do take care.

Absolutely. And I love how we can all learn from each other's experiences and how these experiences shaped their opinions.

It might get a bit heated in here from time to time, but it's good to break the monotone of face cream and recipe talk with the occasional "real" chat!

Not too much though. Sometimes it's good to keep it light and fluffy.

 

[AGBF]

And, Deb... I did not know if I should even post this question for fear of another misunderstanding, but I hope it won't happen. I wonder if our views on capital punishment are somewhat shaped by our beliefs. You mentioned Quaker roots. I have read "the Charioteer" and understand what you are talking about, if only marginally. There is an immense belief in the sanctity of human life among Quakers.

There are many people who know that they will meet their beloved ones in another, better, life. It is a huge consolation and maybe, maybe feeling that the person dear to you has not been taken from you forever, helps to accept. But how about people who simply do not know if this meeting will ever happen?

As I said, you are a very well educated woman, crasru. You are also very intelligent and insightful. I think you have understood how my background has affected my views very well.

It is not that a belief in an afterlife has any effect on my views. That is not something that modern Quakers or Unitarians (the church in which I was actually raised) stress or something from which I derive comfort. The framework of being brought up in a household permeated by those Quaker and Unitarian views has had a huge effect on me, however.

My mother used to tell me, before my parents converted to the Quaker religion, about her own passionate opposition to the death penalty and about having, "reverence for life". She told me stories about Albert Schweitzer in Africa not killing flies in a room when he worked on patients because of his beliefs. Quakers have the same reverence for life because they believe that there is an inner light, God, within all people. Quakers worry less about a vengeful God above and more about what is right among themselves. My mother always made me put myself into the shoes of others: the poor; the condemned; the tortured; those about to be executed. She was unsparing in her imaginative descriptions of what it must have been like for various people to undergo various travails and equally unsparing in her descriptions of cruelty to animals, which has made me a passionate champion of animals!

As I have said, if someone harmed someone I loved-or an animal I loved- I would be perfectly capable of killing him with my bare hands. But I truly believe I should be stopped. I also hope that when I came to my senses that I would no longer wish to exact revenge (although I cannot swear to that). At any rate, I believe that society should absolutely not let me exact revenge via capital punishment, let alone torture!!!

Deb/AGBF

 

[dragonfly411]

I wanted to say that I hope you guys know I wasn't trying to sound heated or angry in asking my questions, but was asking them from sheer curiosity of what others' answers for these situations might be.


Monarch - What I've enjoyed about this discussion is that we HAVE taken the time to understand everyone's views, and have a real discussion, without it getting as heated as I've seen things get on PS in the past. I would hope that we can all post our opinions without having to feel like others will be harsh towards us for those opinions or beliefs, or feeling like we would need to retract a statement.

 

[movie zombie]

After reading this thread, through and through, over the past few days, I have decided I could NOT in good conscience, decide someone's fate AKA putting them to death. Meaning, I could not ever, ever, ever, decide under any circumstances, that I want someone to die. I had never thought about it this long and this hard before.

yes, lots to think about in this thread. it has served imo its purpose.

thank you for your post!

MoZo

 

[autumngems]

ALL FOR IT!

This hits close to home right now as my niece was murdered in front of her children 3 years ago and the trial is just now underway. You may remember it from the news, the nine year old child called 911 the next day.
Death penalty had to be taken off the table as an option as they couldn't find enough jurors that were ok with it. But I however do believe in it.

 

[iheartscience]

Thing2 - I do see your point, but that's what many are trying to argue as well. There should be a more detailed system for determning a sentence, but in the end the people doing the cold blooded killing are the ones who should be either sentenced to some form of life long punishment, or eradicated from society. Could you imagine a mass breakout of these people? Just sayin.

I do see your point as well though, and I do think that she should have a place somewhere with the criminally insane.

There's no point in imagining a mass break out of killers because it will never happen. Just saying.

And Teresa Lewis is not criminally insane. She's mentally disabled and easily manipulated-the last place she should be is with the criminally insane. So apparently you don't see my point!

 

[iheartscience]

Whoa! MZ? Thing? Ksinger? Is there a presidential debate on tonight? The whole darn gang is back together!

Deb

Ha, I would love another debate night thread-those were fun!

 

[dragonfly411]

Thing2 - If she is hiring people to kill her family members, regardless of the people being hired manipulating her, then she would yes belong with the criminally insane. She is not of sound mind. If she can have the thought process to try to plot to kill someone then yes I think that would be a good place to keep her from harming not only others, but herself as well.

I have another friend who works with the criminally insane. Yes some are psychopaths, but some are people much like her, who are mentally challenged, but who have plotted to injure others, have injured others, or have committed some other form of crime that would require planning/plotting.

 

[Arkteia]

ALL FOR IT!

This hits close to home right now as my niece was murdered in front of her children 3 years ago and the trial is just now underway. You may remember it from the news, the nine year old child called 911 the next day.
Death penalty had to be taken off the table as an option as they couldn't find enough jurors that were ok with it. But I however do believe in it.

I can not even express my sympathy and sorrow for your loss. Poor kids who have been orphaned at such a young age, and have to live with it for their lives. No doubt they will have posttraumatic stress disorder and no therapy will ever erase the memories... And how has it affected the whole family. Poor, poor woman.
I am not going to state my opinion because the forum is divided. And all of us know how other people feel. But in my neighbor town, Kirkland, several years ago a young woman, her sister and their two young children were killed and the killer then set the house on fire. He was their neighbor. Why did he do it? He stated he was drunk and had a blackout. (Olga Milkin's murder - people might have read about it). He did it for no reason, he did not even know these people, just killed two young women and two very young children. Apparently he was sober enough to set the house on fire to eliminate evidence! How can people get away with it?

http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/east_king/k ... 26407.html

 

[autumngems]

Crasru,

Thank you for the kind sentiments. It is not an easy time for my family as they sit there in the court room each day looking at him. Those poor children had to testify with him sitting there looking at them.

The children both receive therapy but you know some things you won't ever forget.

http://www.wlky.com/news/24756253/detail.html

 

[princesss]

Crasru,

Thank you for the kind sentiments. It is not an easy time for my family as they sit there in the court room each day looking at him. Those poor children had to testify with him sitting there looking at them.

The children both receive therapy but you know some things you won't ever forget.

http://www.wlky.com/news/24756253/detail.html

Oh my gosh. Please know your family will be in my prayers. I hope this is trial is over as swiftly as possible so the children can focus on healing without the trial hanging over their heads.

 

[autumngems]

Thank you princess, every little bit helps.

 

[Loves Vintage]

Going back to the original question, my honest answer is -- I do not know. I am very conflicted. In my heart of true hearts, I would like to approach this in simplest form. As between life and death, my choice is always life. It is so simple in theory. I'm the person who always assumes the best of people. I am the person who likes to believe everyone has light inside of them. I am the person who doesn't eat meat because she knows she could never kill an animal herself, who lets insects outside rather than killing them because they too should live. I wonder whether the squirrels who play in my backyard know each other as family and would miss one if he were to get hit by a car. It makes me sad to think that they might. So as to another human being, of course, it makes perfect sense, it should not enter my mind that death is an acceptable punishment for any reason. Always life over death. Always.

But then, I read a story like the one Autumngems linked about her family, and it is not so simple. Those poor boys. That horrible man. Do I care if he no longer lives? Or, would I be secretly relieved to know that he no longer existed? (Please forgive me for assuming this man's guilt based on one article. I am otherwise not familiar with the case.) But, if not him for an example, any of the other horrible person in this world, where there can be no doubt that the murderer was responsible for the torment and complete erasure of existence of another human being, an entire family, random people. Well, I can't say it. In those cases, I cannot say that I would not be relieved to know that someone who is capable of such senseless harm, the type of person who makes you say -- how could another human being be capable of such horror -- well, I cannot say that I would not be relieved to know that they were no longer. I do not see the light in them.

*******
Autunmgems, I also wanted to say how sorry I am that your family has endured such tragedy. Those poor boys. It breaks my heart.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Thing2 - I do see your point, but that's what many are trying to argue as well. There should be a more detailed system for determning a sentence, but in the end the people doing the cold blooded killing are the ones who should be either sentenced to some form of life long punishment, or eradicated from society. Could you imagine a mass breakout of these people? Just sayin.

I do see your point as well though, and I do think that she should have a place somewhere with the criminally insane.

There's no point in imagining a mass break out of killers because it will never happen. Just saying.

And Teresa Lewis is not criminally insane. She's mentally disabled and easily manipulated-the last place she should be is with the criminally insane. So apparently you don't see my point!

Ahem, I believe all those killers broke out of Azkaban...oh wait...damn.

Sorry, just wanted to add a little levity (not that this is a funny situation but just so we can all take a step back). I think many many people have really stepped up in this thread - on both sides. There's been a lot of well-reasoned arguments and great debate. I've already added my 2 cents on the topic, but I wanted to say kudos to all who have participated on this thread and contributed to the debate.

 

[doodle]

Thing2 - I do see your point, but that's what many are trying to argue as well. There should be a more detailed system for determning a sentence, but in the end the people doing the cold blooded killing are the ones who should be either sentenced to some form of life long punishment, or eradicated from society. Could you imagine a mass breakout of these people? Just sayin.

I do see your point as well though, and I do think that she should have a place somewhere with the criminally insane.

There's no point in imagining a mass break out of killers because it will never happen. Just saying.

And Teresa Lewis is not criminally insane. She's mentally disabled and easily manipulated-the last place she should be is with the criminally insane. So apparently you don't see my point!

Ahem, I believe all those killers broke out of Azkaban...oh wait...damn.

Thank you for that. I haven't had a really good laugh all week, but that had tears streaming down my face. I needed that!

 

[iheartscience]

Thing2 - If she is hiring people to kill her family members, regardless of the people being hired manipulating her, then she would yes belong with the criminally insane. She is not of sound mind. If she can have the thought process to try to plot to kill someone then yes I think that would be a good place to keep her from harming not only others, but herself as well.

I have another friend who works with the criminally insane. Yes some are psychopaths, but some are people much like her, who are mentally challenged, but who have plotted to injure others, have injured others, or have committed some other form of crime that would require planning/plotting.

You don't seem to realize that the vast majority of killers are of sound mind. They might not have sound morals, but they're not insane. That's why they're able to stand trial and be sentenced to time in prison or death. Otherwise, they'd be declared incompetent to stand trial. From what I've read, that's very rare.

Did you read the linked article in my original post? The entire point of my original post was that Teresa Lewis is very likely NOT capable of plotting or planning. She is, however, capable of being manipulated by others who are capable of plotting or planning.

 

[iheartscience]

Thing2 - I do see your point, but that's what many are trying to argue as well. There should be a more detailed system for determning a sentence, but in the end the people doing the cold blooded killing are the ones who should be either sentenced to some form of life long punishment, or eradicated from society. Could you imagine a mass breakout of these people? Just sayin.

I do see your point as well though, and I do think that she should have a place somewhere with the criminally insane.

There's no point in imagining a mass break out of killers because it will never happen. Just saying.

And Teresa Lewis is not criminally insane. She's mentally disabled and easily manipulated-the last place she should be is with the criminally insane. So apparently you don't see my point!

Ahem, I believe all those killers broke out of Azkaban...oh wait...damn.

Thank you for that. I haven't had a really good laugh all week, but that had tears streaming down my face. I needed that!

SNORT. I can't believe I forgot about Azkaban! You're GOOD BEG.

 

[Diamond*Dana]

I support the death penalty. I have always agreed with it, but even more so after my cousin was murdered at 20 years old, 1 week shy of his 21 birthday and 2 weeks prior to me becoming pregnant with my first child. Since his death, there have been 7 additions to our family that he will never meet, and they will never know him. The loser that murdered him took so much from our family that day.

I am so sorry.

Aw, thank you!

 

[Diamond*Dana]

My problem with it has always been that you'd better be sure of guilt before you do it. There's no going back. If you do a quick search on things like exoneration due to probable innocence you will find that sometimes, the system is not sure. Assuming we as citizens trust our government enough to allow them to implement a justice system wherein they will be certain of guilt before they kill someone, then fine. But, I don't yet know if I would trust such a system or not. And I don't know if even once innocent life being taken by capital punishment warrants the deaths of guilty criminals who are already housed safely in jail.

If you can prove 100%, beyond a shadow of doubt, that the person is guilty...I am absolutely for it!
In the case of my cousin, there were witnesses, he was shot in the face in front of his friends. The kid that shot him was a punk and he even said earlier that night that he was "Going to put a cap in" him. He deserves the death penalty in my opinion, it was premeditated. Unfortunately, he only got 25-life.

 

[dragonfly411]

Thing2 - Possible, but you also then have to question this: Why wouldn't they manipulate her without murdering her family? Why not simply manipulate her into giving them the money? Further, what would make them come to her, manipulate her into killing her family and giving them money?

I think there are several possibilties with her case, and without thorough examination from all sides, it'd be impossible to say for sure whether she was capable of plotting, or whether she was fully manipulated into the entire plan.

Even further, people with learning disabilities are all different. Again, I can speak from personal experience. I know a woman who is in her thirties, that is considered capable of holding a driver's lisence, capable of taking herself to the doctor, and capable of holding a bank account, but who is required by court to have a guardian. She can process needing to pay bills, and speak almost as an adult about some things, but when it comes to her emotions, she is a child. She will cry if she cuts her finger, or if someone yells at her or says something that hurts her feelings. She whines, and pouts like a child. She finds joy in the simplest things, like having her hair combed, or hugging a stuffed animal. At the same time she is fully capable of plotting, and planning. She's capable of causing bodily harm.

Each person will differ, as will each situation, which is why a thorough examination of each case by the court is so important.

 

[risingsun]

Going back to the original question, my honest answer is -- I do not know. I am very conflicted. In my heart of true hearts, I would like to approach this in simplest form. As between life and death, my choice is always life. It is so simple in theory. I'm the person who always assumes the best of people. I am the person who likes to believe everyone has light inside of them. I am the person who doesn't eat meat because she knows she could never kill an animal herself, who lets insects outside rather than killing them because they too should live. I wonder whether the squirrels who play in my backyard know each other as family and would miss one if he were to get hit by a car. It makes me sad to think that they might. So as to another human being, of course, it makes perfect sense, it should not enter my mind that death is an acceptable punishment for any reason. Always life over death. Always.

But then, I read a story like the one Autumngems linked about her family, and it is not so simple. Those poor boys. That horrible man. Do I care if he no longer lives? Or, would I be secretly relieved to know that he no longer existed? (Please forgive me for assuming this man's guilt based on one article. I am otherwise not familiar with the case.) But, if not him for an example, any of the other horrible person in this world, where there can be no doubt that the murderer was responsible for the torment and complete erasure of existence of another human being, an entire family, random people. Well, I can't say it. In those cases, I cannot say that I would not be relieved to know that someone who is capable of such senseless harm, the type of person who makes you say -- how could another human being be capable of such horror -- well, I cannot say that I would not be relieved to know that they were no longer. I do not see the light in them.

*******
Autunmgems, I also wanted to say how sorry I am that your family has endured such tragedy. Those poor boys. It breaks my heart.

I am impressed by the way you expressed your feelings, Loves Vintage. I see this issue in a similar way. To me, the humanity has left such as person. There is no soul, no spirit. As you said it so well, their light is gone. We are sometimes called upon to make very difficult decisions. That is part of our responsibility as a society. We are permitted to remove a known threat to our citizens. We have the right to protect ourselves from further heinous acts.

 

[Loves Vintage]

Thank you, Marian. I have given this topic a lot of thought over the past few days, and I found it quite difficult to come to terms with how I really feel. I appreciate your kind response.

 

[autumngems]

lovesvintage,
Thank you for your words. We have probably 2 more weeks of trial left.

 

[Amber St. Clare]

I became e-mail "pals" with the mother of a victim of a notorious serial killer who was put to death.

The evening before the execution I sent her a quick note telling her I would be thinking of her and saying a short prayer for her daughter. She replied that she has been sustained by so many wonderful people during her long ordeal and she would like us to remember the killer's mother in our prayers. She said that while the mom had suffered an enormous amount due to the actions of her son and the subsequent trials and publicity, she would be losing her child and would experience the same pain the victims' parents had been experiencing.

I could never be go graceful in my grief, but I did as as she asked.

I have to say, reading about his execution brought a brief smile to my face. The guy was an ANIMAL. No, I won't give him the publicity he craved by naming him.

 

[movie zombie]

there are witnesses and then there are Witnesses:

http://www.care2.com/causes/human-right ... ou-saved1/

MoZo