capital punishment

[stone-cold11]

Bring back public execution and punishment like flogging. Bring back the horror of death/punishment, so that it will have a deterrent effect and not just a state.

Google "why the death penalty is not a deterrent" for some interesting information. Below is just one example.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...rence_1202edi.ART.State.Edition1.36bbe2f.html

Not really the same. Where is the public-ness in Texas execution? At least execution means there is no chance of repeat offender.

Flogging definitely has a deterrent effect, at least to the offender who suffered it.

EDT:
For Singapore, there is no such thing as too distance in the future for execution. You have 3 years to appeal from conviction and will be executed as soon as that runs out and the request for Presidential pardon fall through.

Also, Singapore do not have a jury system, only judge or a panel of judges for the appeal cases. Cases go through the system fast.

 

[Laila619]

I repeat: I am in no way, shape, or form responsible for serial killers. How dare you suggest otherwise?

AGBF

Where did I ever say *you* were personally responsible? And why all the anger and aggression? The convo here was very civilized.

 

[dragonfly411]

You know, this is one I've mulled over several times. I've tried to decide to myself what makes most sense as a punishment for these people. First let me present two scenarios.

First - My sister's ex boyfriend works on death row at one of the largest prisons in our state. He works the night shift. On death row, the inmates have access to books, tv, physical recreation, three meals a day, clean cells, clean clothes etc. On death row, if an inmate DOES get a weapon and stabs either another inmate, or a guard, you can't touch him. The guards have less rights than the prisoners. My sister's ex watched his co worker get stabbed in the stomach as they were walking past a row of cells. He wasn't allowed to touch the prisoner, and neither was the guard that got stabbed. Prisoners do this just to be sent to solitary confinement, because they are less likely to be killed by another inmate in solitary. Guards have to be pepper sprayed and stunned once or twice a year, but most inmates never have this happen to them. Is this just?

Second - My town experienced a serial killer. Danny Rawlins. He killed several students back in the eighties. He would decapitate them, and leave body parts to be found. He lived in a tent, and moved around town. My family lived through the terror of wondering if their lives were safe at night. They lived through the terror of waking up to hear about yet another murder. People like him feel no remorse. It is a game to them, people's lives are the pieces, and they are the game master. Whether they have some sick feeling of playing god, or ... .I'm not sure. Today we have a wall, and a row of trees dedicated to those who were murdered. The fraternity houses are in charge of making sure the wall stays in tact with the paintings of their names bold.

For me, I am torn on what to do with people like this. I don't think that someone who is capable of raping, cutting off body parts, murdering more than once, sexually abusing repeatedly, or repeatedly abusing animals should ever have the chance to be back in public. Whether these people are like this because of sociopath habits, chemical imbalances, ego, or what, I just don't think it is ever safe to assume that they won't act again. Single acts of murder are one thing, and there could be any number of circumstances leading up to it. But the rest of it is unforgivable to me. Where I am torn, is whether these people should be extinguished immediately, or whether they should have to take time to suffer with understanding what they did. There are some who will never grasp it, never suffer from it, and never feel remorse. To me, those people should probably be extinguished.

I do believe that we should be 100% sure we have the right person before the DP is enforced. But in the case of Danny Rawlins, Ted Bundy, Manson, etc... we know, and we know those people will never feel remorse.

 

[AGBF]

AGBF, you yourself initially said that no one should participate in this discussion, so surely if it's causing you this much anger maybe you should take a breather? This thread has been very interesting, risingsun's information about sociopaths is sparking all sorts of research for me, very fascinating.

Nashville-

I used to love ATW and spent a huge amount of time there. I only suggested we not discuss this topic because I wanted to remain within the forum guidelines. I love political discussions. If there is going to be one, I will participate in it. I do not need "a breather".

I was merely suggesting that this might not be a good topic for anyone. (You see, we have done it before.)

AGBF

 

[stone-cold11]

I see nothing wrong with cruel and unusual punishment against a cruel and unusual crime, else it is not call punishment. Punishment should be increase proportionately to seriousness of crime. Increasing jail term is definitely not working.

Forget about rehabilitation in jail, what chance really is there where you group up first timer with life-time criminals? Coupled with the stigma of ex-convicts in trying to find jobs? Information exchange, tutoring from the more experienced criminals in more likely what is taking place in jails?

 

[Nashville]

It just seemed as though your level of anger, defensiveness and aggression was becoming elevated compared to how the rest of discussion was going. It's not my place to tell anyone to do anything, but I know in the past when I've started saying things out of anger, that's when I need to take a breather and collect my thoughts. I like your posts and I feel like you have a lot of good points to make, and would hate to see those views get lost in hostility.

 

[Tuckins1]

Bring back public execution and punishment like flogging. Bring back the horror of death/punishment, so that it will have a deterrent effect and not just a state.

Here here!

 

[AGBF]

I am in no way, shape, or form responsible for serial killers.

Where did I ever say *you* were personally responsible? And why all the anger and aggression? The convo here was very civilized.

Laila, as I said above, when you ask me a question like:

"Are the serial killers who torment and kill setting your teeth on edge too?"

and then you place an emoticon of someone shaking his head in shame at me it seems to imply that I should be ashamed of my position in regard to those serial killers!

So where did you ever say I was personally responsible? You said it when you placed that emoticon shaking its little head at me as if to say, "You should be ashamed for all those children you allowed to be raped and murdered due to your softness on serial killers". I mean, Laila, you said it!!! You said, sarcastically, "are the serial killers who torment and kill setting your teeth on edge, too?".

What did you expect me to say in our "civilized" conversation, Laila? "Gee, no, Laila. They don't set my teeth on edge. They are actually my friends. We swap tips on the best way to abuse children?"

That's why I am a tad annoyed.

AGBF

 

[Laila619]

I am in no way, shape, or form responsible for serial killers.

Where did I ever say *you* were personally responsible? And why all the anger and aggression? The convo here was very civilized.

Laila, as I said above, when you ask me a question like:

"Are the serial killers who torment and kill setting your teeth on edge too?"

and then you place an emoticon of someone shaaking his head in shame at me it seems to imply that I should be ashamed of my position in regard to those serial killers!

So where did you ever say I was personally responsible? You said it when you placed that emoticon shaking its little head at me as if to say, "You should be ashamed for all those children you allowed to be raped and murdered due to your softness on serial killers". I mean, Laila, you said it!!! You said, sarcastically, "are the serial killers who torment and kill setting your teeth on edge, too?".

What did you expect me to say in our "civilized" conversation, Laila? Gee, no, Laila. They are actually my friends. We swap tips on the best way to abuse children?

That's why I am a tad annoyed.

AGBF

Holy assumptions, Batman! Nobody said you allowed anything!

I only asked the question because I felt it was odd to call the pro capital punishment people "killers" and say that we "set your teeth on edge"--your anger is better directed towards the real killers, yet you didn't say they set your teeth on edge or call them the ones with the "thirst to kill." Basically, why not the anger towards the culpable party is what I was trying to ask.

You have been hostile and aggressive to multiple people what with all the bolded words and heated language, including your insult to Stone-cold. Like others said, please take a step back and don't read into things, especially something as silly as an emoticon. Nobody called anti capital punishment people wimps or pushovers so you don't need to name call any pro capital punishment posters either.

 

[Karl_K]

Bring back public execution and punishment like flogging. Bring back the horror of death/punishment, so that it will have a deterrent effect and not just a state.

+1.

I wouldn't have a problem with that if we had a justice system that worked instead of a criminal system that don't.
Many victims and or their families are harmed not only by the perpetrator but by the system as well.
There is no justice in the criminal system any more on both sides.
Innocent people getting railroaded and the guilty not getting the punishment they deserve and the victims/families getting put through years of hell waiting for justice.
There are cases locally that are over 5 years old since the arrest that have not yet went to trial.
That is not justice.

 

[risingsun]

During my career, I have mainly worked with victims. This clearly contributes to my point of view. A young man came in to my office. We had been discussing his relationship with family. That past weekend, his father [divorced from his mother] broke into her house and held her a gunpoint for 16 hours. He raped her repeatedly and threatened to kill her. She did survive. The family was in turmoil and trauma. I also worked with a young woman with Antisocial Personality Disorder [the new term for sociopathy]. She calmly told me how she told lies, which destroyed her family. She was subsequently adopted by another family. This had been her goal. Now she wanted her adoptive dad out of the picture, because he took up too much of her adoptive mother's time and attention. She already had a plan to accomplish this. Since the behaviors involved were not "criminal," I could not report her or warn the family. In addition, she refused to sign any consent forms. She played with people's lives as if they were chess pieces. I asked her how she felt about her actions. She smiled at me and said, "I got what I wanted, didn't I?" I realized that she could be a danger to me and I terminated therapy shortly thereafter. I asked if she would like a referral and she declined. She had only come to see me because her mother was concerned about her. She felt fine. I only offer this as a young sociopath in the making. It was chilling. I speak for the victims.

 

[stone-cold11]

I think part of the problem with the justice system is the jury system and the elections of judicial, like PP, DA, judges. Can make the entire system look like a circus sometimes and drag out the whole trial process.

 

[dragonfly411]

During my career, I have mainly worked with victims. This clearly contributes to my point of view. A young man came in to my office. We had been discussing his relationship with family. That past weekend, his father [divorced from his mother] broke into her house and held her a gunpoint for 16 hours. He raped her repeatedly and threatened to kill her. She did survive. The family was in turmoil and trauma. I also worked with a young woman with Antisocial Personality Disorder [the new term for sociopathy]. She calmly told me how she told lies, which destroyed her family. She was subsequently adopted by another family. This had been her goal. Now she wanted her adoptive dad out of the picture, because he took up too much of her adoptive mother's time and attention. She already had a plan to accomplish this. Since the behaviors involved were not "criminal," I could not report her or warn the family. In addition, she refused to sign any consent forms. She played with people's lives as if they were chess pieces. I asked her how she felt about her actions. She smiled at me and said, "I got what I wanted, didn't I?" I realized that she could be a danger to me and I terminated therapy shortly thereafter. I asked if she would like a referral and she declined. She had only come to see me because her mother was concerned about her. She felt fine. I only offer this as a young sociopath in the making. It was chilling. I speak for the victims.

 

[Laila619]

During my career, I have mainly worked with victims. This clearly contributes to my point of view. A young man came in to my office. We had been discussing his relationship with family. That past weekend, his father [divorced from his mother] broke into her house and held her a gunpoint for 16 hours. He raped her repeatedly and threatened to kill her. She did survive. The family was in turmoil and trauma. I also worked with a young woman with Antisocial Personality Disorder [the new term for sociopathy]. She calmly told me how she told lies, which destroyed her family. She was subsequently adopted by another family. This had been her goal. Now she wanted her adoptive dad out of the picture, because he took up too much of her adoptive mother's time and attention. She already had a plan to accomplish this. Since the behaviors involved were not "criminal," I could not report her or warn the family. In addition, she refused to sign any consent forms. She played with people's lives as if they were chess pieces. I asked her how she felt about her actions. She smiled at me and said, "I got what I wanted, didn't I?" I realized that she could be a danger to me and I terminated therapy shortly thereafter. I asked if she would like a referral and she declined. She had only come to see me because her mother was concerned about her. She felt fine. I only offer this as a young sociopath in the making. It was chilling. I speak for the victims.

Yes, very chilling. To think there are people like this out there...and she's actually probably pretty mild compared to others.

 

[AGBF]

You have been hostile and aggressive to multiple people what with all the bolded words and heated language, including your insult to Stone-cold.

In your opinion. In my opinion I mounted an aggressive defense. (By the way, I always bold words.)

I will, however, revise my comments to Stone-cold. I never believed that anyone on the left should be told to leave America if he didn't, "love" it, i.e. if he found some aspect of it which he criticized. In the heat of passion, I told Stone-cold to go to or to go back to Saudi-Arabia (which I have no idea whether or not he has even visited).

While he does find their ideas on flogging and capital punishment to be compatible with his, I should not have implied that he should not be welcome in the United States just because he holds the views that he does.

AGBF

 

[stone-cold11]

I came from Singapore where we have these punishment for crimes and I do intend to go back there when my work here is done. Much lower crime rate. Too bad no guns procession allow, that is a death penalty crime, but I can play with guns when I go back for reservist training. Only guns allowed are the police and military. Anyone else with a gun involved in a crime is a shoot on sight, even if the gun is not used. If captured, that is an automatic death sentence.

Saudi Arabia, nope never been there and do not want to be there. While they have punishment similar to Singapore, I find their judicial system to be too corrupt and religious, unlikely to be fair in handing out punishment.

EDT:
I think you should also not think that anyone who is posting on PS is in the US.

 

[Dancing Fire]

l[/url]

EDT:
For Singapore, there is no such thing as too distance in the future for execution. You have 3 years to appeal from conviction and will be executed as soon as that runs out and the request for Presidential pardon fall through.

Also, Singapore do not have a jury system, only judge or a panel of judges for the appeal cases. Cases go through the system fast.

US should follow the same law. that's why Singapore has a low crime rate.

 

[davi_el_mejor]

If I ever were convicted of a crime and had the choice between death penalty or life in prison with no parole, I'd choose the death penalty. At least I would know how I would die. IMO that's more humane, than the countless possibilities of ways to die in prison.

 

[AGBF]

EDT:
I think you should also not think that anyone who is posting on PS is in the US.

You are quite right. I apologize.

Deb/AGBF

 

[panda08]

As a person who is against the death penalty, even I admit it’s difficult to argue against it for people like Ted Bundy or Charles Manson. However, as appealing as the death penalty is for society’s psychopaths and others who commit horrific crimes, in practice it is fraught with error and is disproportionately imposed. Think of bungled evidence, mistaken identification by eye witnesses, and inexperienced attorneys and law enforcement personnel, even if you don't want to account for bias, prejudice and corruption.

If you have never been involved in the wrong end of the criminal justice system, please don’t be so quick to judge. I have been face to face with an officer who lied on the stand about what happened.

For those who are against the prolonged appeals process and want a death sentence to be immediately carried out, what about these people:

Alan Gell
Gordon Steidl
Laurence Adams
Dan L. Bright
Ryan Matthews
Ernest Ray Willis
Derrick Jamison
Harold Wilson
John Ballard
Curtis McCarty
Michael McCormick
Jonathon Hoffman
Kennedy Brewer
Glen Edward Chapman
Levon "Bo" Jones
Nathson Fields
Paul House Tennessee
Daniel Wade Moore
Ronald Kitchen
Herman Lindsey
Michael Toney Texas
Yancy Douglas
Paris Powell
Robert Springsteen

Those are some names of death row inmates, some of whom have spent a decade or more in prison, who have been subsequently exonerated and released. If we had chosen expediency, those would have been INNOCENT people we would have killed. If that’s not murder, what is?

And what if I knew FOR A FACT that Jeffrey Dahmer murdered all those people? Putting him to death won’t deter other psychos like him or make up for all the pain he’s inflicted. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. We don’t rape rapists and don’t beat up batterers. I hope one day we can, as a society, decide to move past vengence as a form of justice.

 

[goCubsgo]

And what if I knew FOR A FACT that Jeffrey Dahmer murdered all those people? Putting him to death won’t deter other psychos like him or make up for all the pain he’s inflicted. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. We don’t rape rapists and don’t beat up batterers. I hope one day we can, as a society, decide to move past vengence as a form of justice.

Putting him to death will ensure he never breaks out of prison and causes anyone harm again. It's not about vengence, it's about ridding society of people who will brutally murder others without thinking twice if given the chance. These people cannot be rehabilitated. Read any book by a behavioral psychologist on sex crimes/murders.

Also, for people who are adamantly opposed to the death penalty, I would like to ask: if G*d forbid, some sick psychopath laid a hand on their own child/sister/mother, would they still be opposed? How would they feel if the sociopath broke out of jail and killed again?

 

[Irishgrrrl]

However, how can we ever be absolutely, positively 110% SURE that this person is guilty?

With DNA we can be 110% sure.

No. Not even with DNA. Mistakes are made with DNA. Like whose is left where.

And, even if someone committed an act where he was convicted of first degree murder, he may not be guilty of it under the law if there were extenuating circumstances: self-defense; extreme mental-illness; a legitimate case of mistaken identity. The person may have committed a crime in some of those cases, but it may not have been first degree murder.

AGBF

Deb, I was going to post almost exactly this response, but you beat me to it. Very well said.

BTW, I'm not sure if everyone here is aware of this: When a prisoner is executed, the cause of death on his/her death certificate is listed as "homicide." For me, that kind of supports my belief that the death penalty is wrong, since I'm sure we can all agree that homicide (in general) is wrong.

Someone asked how those of us who are anti-death penalty would feel if a friend or family member were murdered. Would I then be pro-death penalty? The answer is "no." Killing the person who killed my loved one wouldn't bring said loved one back. I don't think the answer to killing is more killing. Also, as I said in a previous post, I don't think the death penalty is an appropriate consequence because it lets the offender off too easy. If someone killed a loved one of mine, I would much rather he/she sit in prison for the rest of his/her life.

 

[kenny]

The capital gets punished very four years.
People get sick of the bums in office and throw them out.

 

[panda08]

And what if I knew FOR A FACT that Jeffrey Dahmer murdered all those people? Putting him to death won’t deter other psychos like him or make up for all the pain he’s inflicted. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. We don’t rape rapists and don’t beat up batterers. I hope one day we can, as a society, decide to move past vengence as a form of justice.

Putting him to death will ensure he never breaks out of prison and causes anyone harm again. It's not about vengence, it's about ridding society of people who will brutally murder others without thinking twice if given the chance. These people cannot be rehabilitated. Read any book by a behavioral psychologist on sex crimes/murders.

Also, for people who are adamantly opposed to the death penalty, I would like to ask: if G*d forbid, some sick psychopath laid a hand on their own child/sister/mother, would they still be opposed? How would they feel if the sociopath broke out of jail and killed again?

Imprisoning Dahmer for life would ensure that he wouldn't harm anyone again. The possibility of him, or anyone else, breaking out of prison and killing again is not a reason for the death penalty.

I have degrees in criminology and psychology so I've read plenty about sex crimes and murders. I get that people like Dahmer probably cannot be rehabilitated. But the inability to rehabilitate is also not a reason for the death penalty.

And to answer your question, yes, I would STILL be opposed to the death penalty even if my loved one was a victim. I would be devestated but taking that person's life won't change anything. Relief of anger, pain or grief is not a reason for the death penalty.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

And what if I knew FOR A FACT that Jeffrey Dahmer murdered all those people? Putting him to death won’t deter other psychos like him or make up for all the pain he’s inflicted. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. We don’t rape rapists and don’t beat up batterers. I hope one day we can, as a society, decide to move past vengence as a form of justice.

Putting him to death will ensure he never breaks out of prison and causes anyone harm again. It's not about vengence, it's about ridding society of people who will brutally murder others without thinking twice if given the chance. These people cannot be rehabilitated. Read any book by a behavioral psychologist on sex crimes/murders.

Also, for people who are adamantly opposed to the death penalty, I would like to ask: if G*d forbid, some sick psychopath laid a hand on their own child/sister/mother, would they still be opposed? How would they feel if the sociopath broke out of jail and killed again?

Panda, I agree with you. However, (and you may already be aware of this) I just wanted to point out that the Jeffrey Dahmer example is moot, since he was killed in prison in 1994 by another inmate while serving 15 consecutive life sentences.

Cubs, it may not be about vengeance for you, but I think that's exactly what it's about for many proponents of the death penalty. And I agree that most murderers who would qualify for the death penalty cannot be rehabilitated. I don't really see the possibility for rehabilitation as a valid argument against the death penalty (in my opinion, of course). Rather than attempting to rehabilitate such offenders, I would like to see them serve life terms without the possibility of parole. If nothing else, keeping them alive would allow psychiatric professionals to learn from them, in the hope that crimes like theirs could be prevented in the future.

 

[dragonfly411]

And what if I knew FOR A FACT that Jeffrey Dahmer murdered all those people? Putting him to death won’t deter other psychos like him or make up for all the pain he’s inflicted. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. We don’t rape rapists and don’t beat up batterers. I hope one day we can, as a society, decide to move past vengence as a form of justice.

Putting him to death will ensure he never breaks out of prison and causes anyone harm again. It's not about vengence, it's about ridding society of people who will brutally murder others without thinking twice if given the chance. These people cannot be rehabilitated. Read any book by a behavioral psychologist on sex crimes/murders.

Also, for people who are adamantly opposed to the death penalty, I would like to ask: if G*d forbid, some sick psychopath laid a hand on their own child/sister/mother, would they still be opposed? How would they feel if the sociopath broke out of jail and killed again?

Imprisoning Dahmer for life would ensure that he wouldn't harm anyone again. The possibility of him, or anyone else, breaking out of prison and killing again is not a reason for the death penalty.

I have degrees in criminology and psychology so I've read plenty about sex crimes and murders. I get that people like Dahmer probably cannot be rehabilitated. But the inability to rehabilitate is also not a reason for the death penalty.

And to answer your question, yes, I would STILL be opposed to the death penalty even if my loved one was a victim. I would be devestated but taking that person's life won't change anything. Relief of anger, pain or grief is not a reason for the death penalty.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with the first part of this post. Did you read my post at all? He could get a weapon and injure a guard, or kill another inmate. It happens more often than you or I see. It happens every day, every week, every month.

 

[panda08]

And what if I knew FOR A FACT that Jeffrey Dahmer murdered all those people? Putting him to death won’t deter other psychos like him or make up for all the pain he’s inflicted. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. We don’t rape rapists and don’t beat up batterers. I hope one day we can, as a society, decide to move past vengence as a form of justice.

Putting him to death will ensure he never breaks out of prison and causes anyone harm again. It's not about vengence, it's about ridding society of people who will brutally murder others without thinking twice if given the chance. These people cannot be rehabilitated. Read any book by a behavioral psychologist on sex crimes/murders.

Also, for people who are adamantly opposed to the death penalty, I would like to ask: if G*d forbid, some sick psychopath laid a hand on their own child/sister/mother, would they still be opposed? How would they feel if the sociopath broke out of jail and killed again?

Imprisoning Dahmer for life would ensure that he wouldn't harm anyone again. The possibility of him, or anyone else, breaking out of prison and killing again is not a reason for the death penalty.

I have degrees in criminology and psychology so I've read plenty about sex crimes and murders. I get that people like Dahmer probably cannot be rehabilitated. But the inability to rehabilitate is also not a reason for the death penalty.

And to answer your question, yes, I would STILL be opposed to the death penalty even if my loved one was a victim. I would be devestated but taking that person's life won't change anything. Relief of anger, pain or grief is not a reason for the death penalty.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with the first part of this post. Did you read my post at all? He could get a weapon and injure a guard, or kill another inmate. It happens more often than you or I see. It happens every day, every week, every month.

I did see your post but it doesn't change my thoughts on the matter. I don't think that, because there are security problems in prison, it is a reason to impose the death penalty.

 

[dragonfly411]

Panda - I do see what you are saying, although it is not a security issue. I was arguing the point that prisoners are given more rights than the guards themselves. Guards aren't allowed to defend themselves. Also other prisoners get hurt or even killed. I do understand your point though about the death penalty, I just wanted to make the point that these people may NOT be put somewhere where they can do no harm again.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Deb, I was going to post almost exactly this response, but you beat me to it. Very well said.

BTW, I'm not sure if everyone here is aware of this: When a prisoner is executed, the cause of death on his/her death certificate is listed as "homicide." For me, that kind of supports my belief that the death penalty is wrong, since I'm sure we can all agree that homicide (in general) is wrong.

should be listed as "execution"

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Wow this thread has blown up considerably since I last posted on it.

I've been thinking this issue over more since Crasru started the topic. I feel like a major issue is that our justice system, while not broken, could be much better - especially in the area of deterrence. Someone else pointed it out after my post, but I remember this from my death penalty research a few years ago - DP really doesn't have much of a deterrent effect. Why? Possibly that DP takes a LOT of time to go into effect. When it takes several years from conviction to execution, the immediacy of the crime and the punishment fitting the crime tends to fade. Also, despite the many prisoners on death row, not that many overall are actually executed nowadays (well except maybe in Texas - no offense to anyone in TX). Compared to the number of people serving life imprisonment or on death row but will probably not be executed - well, we as humans, I think, like to play the odds, especially when the odds seem so low that one will actually die for a crime. This also plays into some legal philosophy stuff that I remember from 1L year - I think it was basically that many people have trouble seeing past the situation they're immediately in (anchoring), so the long-term consequences ("I could die for this crime of murdering someone") tend to be ignored in favor of the "now" moment. Sorry if that's a bit unclear.

And as to Singapore - never been there, but I do remember Phoenix's recent thread on how the package she sent with her ring arrived in the US with no ring. Phoenix mentioned that it was unlikely the postal workers in Singapore stole it, because of their strict punishment laws. Who knows what exactly happened, but it does seem like Singapore, whether you agree with their system or not, does have some sort of deterrent effect going on.

As to the issue of prisoner luxuries and comfort - that was actually the topic of a bill I wrote for my senior year of Youth Legislature. Prisoners do have a LOT of luxuries in terms of recreation, food, etc. Back then, at the age of 18, I was pretty offended by it actually. Here was the scum of society, in my mind, living far more comfortably than many people in the US who committed no crime other than to be unlucky or poor. In fact, that still bothers me a bit. However, I also remind myself now that the prisoners, while they have material comforts and aren't living homeless on the streets in the middle of a Montana winter, also don't have the ability to decide for themselves anymore. Restricting one's freedom to live as they want, to make their own decisions, restricting their autonomy in all the major areas of their lives - that's pretty cruel too. It doesn't mean I still don't get mad at how comfortably they live compared to people on the streets, but I don't necessarily want to deprive them of all the prison comforts anymore, considering, well, that's all they have while in prison. I hope that makes sense.

And finally, on the topic of rapists. Rapists are scum. Sorry. I completely acknowledge that there are often strong mitigating circumstances for murder - self-defense, mistake of fact, etc. But rape? That's just inexcusable in my book. And as for punishment - well I actually know the judge who handed down THIS sentence - http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,921422,00.html