At what point is it OK for a man to lay a finger (and not in a good way) on a woman?

[AGBF]

Date: 6/9/2009 8:08:08 AM
Author: cara


Saying that he *may* not have been required to leave his is not the same thing as advocating it. Just because something is possible does not mean it is advisable. You also deleted my first paragraph in which I discussed him leaving and also in which I implied that it is bad to harm your wife and mother of your child (even if she is beating you.) I thought other people had covered his best option - leaving and calling the police - and I didn't realize that we weren't allowed to discuss lesser options.

My second paragraph which you quote here is asking a question - is he *required* to leave? - not advocating that position. Even if there were a valid legal defense in this case (which I am not sure that it is in case of domestic violence), it would not be *advisable* to put yourself in a position where one could be charged with a crime and then try and defend yourself. It would be especially inadvisable if one is a man trying to claim justifiable defense against a woman, your wife. The optics is just horrible, and as you can see from this thread, many people assume that any man can fend off any woman's attacks without harming her or threatening her life. I'm not sure that is a valid assumption.

The details I posted regarding why he might not have left, which you quote, begin to add reasons why fleeing would be a less good option from his perspective. If he doesn't leave (which I agree he should do), should he just tolerate the abuse? Try to fend her off without harming her - even though she is a strong woman and it may not be possible to walk that fine line of fending without hurting, given that he has chosen the non-ideal course of staying rather than fleeing? In the first paragraph of my first post, I also stated explicitly that I thought it was unlikely that his escalation was strictly necessary, and that it was more likely he just got mad. But from the fourth hand details TGal has provided here, we can't be sure. You can't be sure. Maybe he had some variant of battered woman syndrome and couldn't really see leaving as an option or the abuse ever ending, even if we rational people spectating can clearly see he had options. Maybe he really had immanent fear for his safety or his son's safety if he turned his back on her to leave. Maybe, given his choice to stay, he had to escalate to get her to stop, he could not just fend her off without seriously hurting her or threatening her life. Not the likeliest scenerios, very difficult to prove in court, but not impossible.

cara, I read your entire posting. I am afraid that I still do not really understand "where you are coming from" if you believe (as I do) that his leaving would be the ideal solution. I do see that you have put a great deal of thought into the matter and I will certainly not argue that my lack of comprehension is due to a flaw in your logic. It may just be that I don't get it!

I will answer the hypothetical questions you posed to me, however. You asked what I would suggest that the husband do if he had did not take what you and I agree is the "ideal course" of leaving. Her is my best off-the-cuff shot.

I think that if he does not think that his child is in imminent danger (i.e. that he does not think that she will try to use the child as a weapon at that point by somehow holding him hostage, threatening to harm him), that he should go to a secure place in the house with a phone-away from the child to avoid having her attach any significance to his seclusion and his "holding" their child-and call the emergency number for the police immediately.

If she has already made the child an issue, he should take the child with him into a secluded room and then call the police emergency number from that room.

AGBF

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 6/9/2009 10:52:24 AM
Author: risingsun
Let''s remember that, if he was fearful of her, he was already out of the house and safe. He had the option of calling the police for the safety of his child. He returned to the situation, which quickly escalated. You do not go back into a burning building. You do not return to the scene of domestic violence--especially if you are the victim. That does not speak to Battered Women''s Syndrome in his case. T-Gal said that he started the argument that night. That does not excuse her behavior, but it does not cast him in the role of the victim, either. He did not put her in a choke hold, he choked her. In my view, a choke hold is still unacceptable. There are other options that have less potential for lethality. This couple needs an order of protection from each other and DSS should be called in for the safety of the child. If you have not had first hand experience with this type of situation, it may seem that his actions were acceptable. As a counselor, with many years of experience with both abused men and women, I can tell you that it is not. He had other options.

Did I say that? I''d have to go back and read, but I don''t think he started the argument. But it was his FAULT that she was mad. Meaning, he didn''t pick a fight with her...she got mad over something he did and started in on him. He was absolutely in the wrong for doing the stupid guy thing, but she was the one who called him on it and flew off the handle.

I know he would not call the cops on her. As I said, this is a woman with a record (3 DUIs) and whether it''s because men don''t report domestic abuse or he actually still cares about her and doesn''t want her to go to jail AGAIN, I''m not sure - but it would not happen. It wasn''t an option for him.

 

[purrfectpear]

It seems there''s been a considerable amount of rationalizing in this thread.

Unless your wife out weighs you, as a guy, you leave. Period. End of subject. No more rationalization about how it wasn''t "easy to get out of there"

Come on. Fend off the blows as you back out the door and leave.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 6/9/2009 1:22:57 PM
Author: purrfectpear
It seems there''s been a considerable amount of rationalizing in this thread.

Unless your wife out weighs you, as a guy, you leave. Period. End of subject. No more rationalization about how it wasn''t ''easy to get out of there''

Come on. Fend off the blows as you back out the door and leave.

She outweighs him.

 

[Kelli]

Date: 6/8/2009 1:47:14 PM
Author: elrohwen
If a man is being attacked, I think he has every right to try to restrain the woman, but he should try not to cause her any more harm than necessary to protect himself.

What a sad story, TGal!

I agree.

 

[makemepretty]

I believe a man is always stronger than a woman and what he should have done is left the house. I''m sure he could have been able to leave rather than try to restrain her.

If my child hits me I do not shove him away from me. What mom hasn''t been hit by a toddler? Would it be ok to defend yourself, physically causing the other person harm? He had the right to shield himself but it sounds like he went above and beyond but we probably aren''t getting the full story, only they know. She is totally at fault and if he had called 911 she would have been arrested.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 6/9/2009 1:39:29 PM
Author: makemepretty
I believe a man is always stronger than a woman and what he should have done is left the house. I''m sure he could have been able to leave rather than try to restrain her.

If my child hits me I do not shove him away from me. What mom hasn''t been hit by a toddler? Would it be ok to defend yourself, physically causing the other person harm? He had the right to shield himself but it sounds like he went above and beyond but we probably aren''t getting the full story, only they know. She is totally at fault and if he had called 911 she would have been arrested.

That analogy doesn''t exactly fly with me. I''m not going to leave the house if my toddler hits me!

And he doesn''t want her arrested, she has a history already and arresting her would probably cost them a lot of money...money they are going to need for the divorce!

 

[lowphat]

The only time it''s acceptable for a man to strike a woman is if she weighs at least 1 1/2 times more than the guy. In that case, she should be big enough to hold her own and it''s fair game.

Otherwise the man needs to either learn to block really well or learn to walk away. The end.

 

[whitby_2773]

TGal -

i just wanted to say that i feel for you in this scenario. there''s something confusing when friends start behaving in ways we inherently disapprove of, or behaving in ways we find ugly. disapproval and distaste start getting mixed with our affection for them and our commitment to them, and the whole thing gets confusing and unsettling. i can hear in the tone of your posts that this whole thing has unsettled you somewhat, and i just wanted to say that i hope this resolves in a way that allows you to remain friendly with either or both of them to the extent that you want to.

just sending you a friendly smile and a quick hug...

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 6/9/2009 2:49:36 PM
Author: whitby_2773
TGal -

i just wanted to say that i feel for you in this scenario. there''s something confusing when friends start behaving in ways we inherently disapprove of, or behaving in ways we find ugly. disapproval and distaste start getting mixed with our affection for them and our commitment to them, and the whole thing gets confusing and unsettling. i can hear in the tone of your posts that this whole thing has unsettled you somewhat, and i just wanted to say that i hope this resolves in a way that allows you to remain friendly with either or both of them to the extent that you want to.

just sending you a friendly smile and a quick hug...

"started" behaving in ways? Ha. I like this couple a lot, but there''s been stuff going for awhile. They just have a great sense of humor about it on most days, which is why this is so sad - when they can no longer laugh about things...

People are thinking they''ll work it out. They have on and off for about 20 years.

But thanks for the smile and hug...always a nice thing to get!

 

[makemepretty]

I know he doesn''t WANT his wife arrested but if he thinks the situation is out of control or he feels his children are in danger than THAT''S why you call the police. Plus, it puts it on record that she''s abusive, which he''d need proof of for custody.

Also, a mother wouldn''t leave a child alone in the house if a kid hit her but that is why they recommend when kids are really small, that if you are feeling overwhelmed you make sure the baby/toddler is safe in their crib or room and step away to refocus and take a breather. That''s why baby shaken syndrome occurs, not being able to handle a stressful situation. That is what I was trying to point out, everyone has the ability to deal with something like this a heck of a lot better than it sounds like he did, he was the victim but he went too far and he didn''t have to. She had no right to hit him at all. He used excessive force(choking her). That''s what the police are for.

 

[perry]

I am disappointed that some do not understand that comparable weight has little to do with the ability to successfully attack or defend in hand to hand combat.

Skill, conditioning, the amount of adrenerlen (or drugs), mental state, and the intensity of the attack, will carry the fight any day. Another key factor is surprise - the initiator has a huge advantage if they can surprise the other party.

Only if all of these are equal - does size and weight comes into play. However, these are rarely equal in real life.

I personally know one gal perhaps 4 ft 6 inches tall, about 90 Lb soaking wet who picked up and body slammed a 250 Lb muscular guy (no more fat than a jay bird) - and instantly won the fight he started.

As I stated before: A person can use as much force as necessary to stop the attack.

Also for the record. Use of a chock hold is not dangerous by someone who knows what they are doing. In fact - chocking someone to unconsiousness can be the safest (least harmful) method in certain situations. Of course, you have to stop choking immeidately after the other person passes out - whereupon you can safely deal with the situation as you are no longer under attack. The other person will come awake in a few moments although they will be a bit grogy for a while.

Perry

 

[purrfectpear]

Perry, you''re dreaming.
I''ve lived with several cops over the years and there''s nothing "safe" about a choke hold. They''re pros and they know what they''re doing but they also agreed that there was risk in using it (there was plenty of discussion among cops when a few people started dying from it). Not everyone "comes to".

 

[perry]

Date: 6/10/2009 11:14:55 AM
Author: purrfectpear
Perry, you're dreaming.
I've lived with several cops over the years and there's nothing 'safe' about a choke hold. They're pros and they know what they're doing but they also agreed that there was risk in using it (there was plenty of discussion among cops when a few people started dying from it). Not everyone 'comes to'.

Not dreaming at all.

Of course there is a risk - there is a risk in just puching a person.... or in using a police stick as you do not know the other persons medical conditions.

The question becomes what do you do in certain situations. A choke hold may be the only real option you have to contol the other person and stop the attack - or the lowest risk option you have. This is why choke holds are still taught as part of advanced hand to hand combat. It is why they are still used by police and other professionals arround the world.

Alternately - I suppose you would be perfered to be wacked on the head with a heavy solid object, perhaps shot with a heavy caliber handgun.... or have your throat slit with a sharp knife. These may not kill you (the last one will almost certainly do so) - but you will likely spend time in the hospital and you are likely to have problems the rest of your life - or at least go through a very long recovery and physical therapy period. Suddenly the risk associated with a choke hold become a better option because 99+% of people can just walk away from it in 10 - 15 minutes with minimal - if any - ill effects.

I note that the key to use of a choke hold - is an immediate release after the person blacks out. I am familiar with the investigations into 2 police choke hold deaths in Wisconsin a number of years ago. In both of those cases the cops continued the choke hold well beyond that point.

I also note that real choke holds are done as part of the any good training program - and usually the trainie gets choked down before they learn how to do it - so that they have personal experience on what it is like.

Perry

 

[Aloros]

In general, only in defense from deadly force, or to restrain the other party when no escape is possible.

Violence is seldom ever the answer. Fighting back tends to be the path toward escalating the situation. There are exceptions to this, but I think it is always best to remove oneself from the situation if at all possible. Man or woman.

Women are usually physically weaker than men, but I don''t know how much that even matters.

I think both sexes should take near-extreme measures to avoid phsyical violence with the other. It is not ok.

T-Gal''s friend in this case definitely used excessive force. Yes, he snapped. Yes, he has endured abuse from this woman. There are mitigating circumstances, but it does not make it right or even ok.

On the other side of the coin, those women who took a knife or a gun to the man who abused them - I don''t think they are justified either.

Unless it is, for some reason, impossible to walk away - the best action is just that. Walk away.

 

[risingsun]

Perry, there is a huge difference between being trained in self-defense and knowing how to use a choke hold and an angry husband choking his wife. How would he have known if she had passed out or was dead? There are other methods of restraining a person and removing himself from the scene was not only an option, but he was already out of the house. Although he choose not to call the police regarding his child's safety, it was a choice he could have made. Since he didn't, I am assuming he did not think the child was in danger. If he did think so, he needs to be reported to Child Protective Services, along with this wife. If this couple attempts to minimize this incident and continue with this marriage, I fear for what will happen next as this cycle of abuse continues to escalate...and it will. Gypsy, I feel badly for your friends and especially for their child. I can tell you from my professional experience that this will not end well for anyone.