At what point is it OK for a man to lay a finger (and not in a good way) on a woman?

[TravelingGal]

We heard sad news this week that some friends have called in the divorce lawyers. I won''t go into what triggered it, but the wife became so angry (and she has anger issues) she came out with guns ablazing and started swinging at her husband. His hands and arms got badly battered trying to fend off her blows and finally, trying to restrain her, he got her into choke hold and pushed her into the sofa, holding her there. I''m sure plenty of yelling accompanied. It''s such a sad, awful situation.

As you can imagine, this has been quite the topic of conversation amongst our circle. One question that came up was:

Is it ever OK for man to fight back during a continuous assault by a woman?

 

[brooklyngirl]

That''s awful, what happened with your friends

.

I don''t know about fighting back in the sense of trying to hurt the other person, but I definitely think a man can and should protect himself from anyone trying to do him physical harm. It doesn''t matter if that person happens to be a woman. If it''s possible to restrain her that''s what he should do. If not, then in the end he still has to protect himself.

 

[elrohwen]

If a man is being attacked, I think he has every right to try to restrain the woman, but he should try not to cause her any more harm than necessary to protect himself.

What a sad story, TGal!

 

[princesss]

If somebody is physically assaulting you (male or female) I think it''s okay to do what you have to to restrain them and protect yourself as long as it is not excessive. In this case, what you''re describing does not strike me as excessive. Had he started punching her back in an attempt to knock her out, I would label that excessive.

It''s a tough line, but in the end I do believe people need to protect themselves.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 6/8/2009 1:40:40 PM
Author:TravelingGal
We heard sad news this week that some friends have called in the divorce lawyers. I won''t go into what triggered it, but the wife became so angry (and she has anger issues) she came out with guns ablazing and started swinging at her husband. His hands and arms got badly battered trying to fend off her blows and finally, trying to restrain her, he got her into choke hold and pushed her into the sofa, holding her there. I''m sure plenty of yelling accompanied. It''s such a sad, awful situation.

As you can imagine, this has been quite the topic of conversation amongst our circle. One question that came up was:

Is it ever OK for man to fight back during a continuous assault by a woman?

He has every right to defend himself. But he overstepped the line by putting her into the choke hold and pushing her down on the sofa. I can see why he did it but can''t condone it, yanno??
She needs to go to anger management classes. Do they have kids?

 

[Elmorton]

First, Tgal, I''m really sorry to hear about your friends. It must be extremely hard for them, but also on your circle.

But the answer to your question: I think it''s always OK to protect yourself in order to restrain (but not to retaliate against) the other person. I think the whole gender issue is hooey, and that the real issue (beyond the physical assault itself) comes down to strength. Whoever is physically stronger in a relationship, regardless of gender, bears an additional responsibility to not use that force against the other.

 

[Mara]

i do think that a man has a right to defend himself is a woman is attacking him. if a simple push away doesn't do it and she is battering on him or worse, attacking him with a weapon, he should try to subdue her. i don't think that violence against ANYONE is ok. men sometimes get a bad rap when it has to do with women a lot of times, but i know some women that are bigger and/or stronger than some men! also sometimes women can take advantage of how the man won't fight back, maybe in a situation like this she thought he wouldn't defend himself.

the other thing too is he must feel HORRIBLE that he had to do that to his wife and i bet he will beat himself up over it for longer than anyone else will think he shouldn't have done it. in any case, horrible way for their marriage to end.

 

[Shoopy]

Date: 6/8/2009 1:40:40 PM
Author:TravelingGal


Is it ever OK for man to fight back during a continuous assault by a woman?

Yes it is if he''s trying to restrain her. I''m assuming that when you say choke hold, he had her arms crossed in front of her and holding her down. This to me is not fighting back, it''s trying to prevent the fight from continuing.

 

[Linda W]

Date: 6/8/2009 1:47:50 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 6/8/2009 1:40:40 PM

Author:TravelingGal

We heard sad news this week that some friends have called in the divorce lawyers. I won''t go into what triggered it, but the wife became so angry (and she has anger issues) she came out with guns ablazing and started swinging at her husband. His hands and arms got badly battered trying to fend off her blows and finally, trying to restrain her, he got her into choke hold and pushed her into the sofa, holding her there. I''m sure plenty of yelling accompanied. It''s such a sad, awful situation.


As you can imagine, this has been quite the topic of conversation amongst our circle. One question that came up was:


Is it ever OK for man to fight back during a continuous assault by a woman?

He has every right to defend himself. But he overstepped the line by putting her into the choke hold and pushing her down on the sofa. I can see why he did it but can''t condone it, yanno??

She needs to go to anger management classes. Do they have kids?

Ditto: I think the choke hold was really unnecessary. T-Gal, I am really sorry your friends are going through this.

 

[jcarlylew]

Date: 6/8/2009 1:47:14 PM
Author: elrohwen
If a man is being attacked, I think he has every right to try to restrain the woman, but he should try not to cause her any more harm than necessary to protect himself.


What a sad story, TGal!

elrohwen - well said

regardless, there is no black and white answer to this question.

 

[Ellen]

I agree that he had every right to defend himself, subduing her was right. Choking, not so good.

However, I had a very dear guy friend who "had" to marry a gal (we''re talking real shotgun wedding here), and she used to beat the shit out of him, on a semi regular basis. I''ve never wanted a guy to hit a gal, until then. And I used to tell him he should. IMO, she would have deserved it. Being the gentleman he was, he never did though. Luckily she started an affair and ended up leaving him.

 

[luckystar112]

Date: 6/8/2009 1:40:40 PM
Author:TravelingGal

Is it ever OK for man to fight back during a continuous assault by a woman?

Yes. I do not buy the whole "never touch the delicate flower that is a woman" garbage. Self defense should not rest upon whether or not you are male or female and our "politically correct" societal norm against a man hitting a woman is no reason for a woman to believe that she can attack a man with no reciprocation. In my opinion, as soon a woman makes the decision to act violently against a man she has thrown all of that logic out the window.

I do not condone violence against a man OR a woman, to be clear.

 

[TravelingGal]

Kaleigh, yes they have kids. They have been together on and off for 20 years, married for around 10. Teenage pregnancy gave them their first son who is now in college and they also have a 4 year old.

The details are foggy, but my understanding was that he tried to restrain her and pinned her into the sofa, but he also may have been choking her (hands to throat). He is a nice guy and I don''t think he''s ever hurt her before (although this is not the first time she''s attacked him). I think the fact that he was driven to hurting her is what has brought on the divorce. My guess is he realized if he''s been driven to this, it is not healthy for them to be together. The rumor is that he is very disturbed by it.

TGuy and I had a discussion about men hitting women if they hit first a long time ago. He told me at the time that he would absolutely hit a woman if she hit him. I was like, WHAT? WTF??? I told him, that''s not right, men are stronger than women, generally speaking! He said he wouldn''t slug her or anything, but if a random woman hit him at a bar for some bizarre reason, he would give her a good shove back and ask her what the hell she was doing. He asked me why it''s OK for men to put up with physical violence (because it apparently DOES hurt as some women know how to throw a good punch) and not women? I think he was playing devil''s advocate a bit, but still was serious in that he doesn''t think it''s ever OK for a woman to hit a man either and such women need a good shove to know it is not OK. Personally I think he was just making a point since my husband has never even gotten into a fight with a MAN.

 

[doodle]

Personally, I don''t care what gender you are--you come at me swingin'', and I''ll do what I have to in order to get your nutty ass off me. Key words--HAVE TO. Assuming that this man probably possessed more physical strength than his wife, he probably could have subdued her in ways other than a choke hold, so he may have been a bit excessive, but I think he had every right to try to restrain her and protect himself. With my response, I''m also thinking of a literal choke hold in the classical definition (restraining someone by cutting off their air supply so as to lead to unconsciousness), not in its loose definition (merely restraining someone so as to prevent further action). Sorry to hear that your social circle is dealing with the repercussions of their actions--hope everything works out for the best!

 

[Erin]

If his arms were badly beaten from her blows, then it seems clear to me that he resisted using force for a long time before resorting to the choke hold. If she went crazy on him, I would understand his using a brute tactic to stop the beating. A choke hold is not choking her (at least the way I understand it.) A choke hold is wrapping your arm around someone''s neck from behind so that they cannot harm you with forward movement.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 6/8/2009 1:53:13 PM
Author: Linda W

Date: 6/8/2009 1:47:50 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 6/8/2009 1:40:40 PM

Author:TravelingGal

We heard sad news this week that some friends have called in the divorce lawyers. I won''t go into what triggered it, but the wife became so angry (and she has anger issues) she came out with guns ablazing and started swinging at her husband. His hands and arms got badly battered trying to fend off her blows and finally, trying to restrain her, he got her into choke hold and pushed her into the sofa, holding her there. I''m sure plenty of yelling accompanied. It''s such a sad, awful situation.


As you can imagine, this has been quite the topic of conversation amongst our circle. One question that came up was:


Is it ever OK for man to fight back during a continuous assault by a woman?

He has every right to defend himself. But he overstepped the line by putting her into the choke hold and pushing her down on the sofa. I can see why he did it but can''t condone it, yanno??

She needs to go to anger management classes. Do they have kids?

Ditto: I think the choke hold was really unnecessary. T-Gal, I am really sorry your friends are going through this.

Of course, as women, I think the majority of us would think this way. This woman has a history of scary violent actions. She a great gal in many ways but her angry is seriously scary from what I''ve heard (we don''t have a long history with this circle of friends...only about 4 years or so). She''s also no delicate flower. 5''9" and TOUGH. My guess is that he''s wasn''t exactly able to make a get away and it was a serious attack.

If it were in reverse, and the man were attacking the woman, she should just defend herself and not throw blows back? Although I think many would still say "no", more women would be OK with a woman throwing a punch or two back. Simply because her punches wouldn''t be as forceful as his.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 6/8/2009 2:15:48 PM
Author: Starset Princess
If his arms were badly beaten from her blows, then it seems clear to me that he resisted using force for a long time before resorting to the choke hold. If she went crazy on him, I would understand his using a brute tactic to stop the beating. A choke hold is not choking her (at least the way I understand it.) A choke hold is wrapping your arm around someone''s neck from behind so that they cannot harm you with forward movement.

The story seems to be that he tried his best to defend himself for awhile then snapped. It wasn''t a choke hold, I believe it was CHOKING. And this is by his own very sad admission to one of his friends.

 

[vespergirl]

Since she was hitting him, he should have just walked out the door. I think that trying to restrain someone is a shady issue - sometimes men don''t know their own strength, and he could have really hurt her in that choke hold. His best choice would have been to leave the house and call the police immediately, which is the same advice I would give a woman who was being battered.

Overall, it sounds like a really sad situation, especially for those poor kids.

 

[Shoopy]

Date: 6/8/2009 2:11:20 PM
Author: TravelingGal

The details are foggy, but my understanding was that he tried to restrain her and pinned her into the sofa, but he also may have been choking her (hands to throat). He is a nice guy and I don''t think he''s ever hurt her before (although this is not the first time she''s attacked him). I think the fact that he was driven to hurting her is what has brought on the divorce. My guess is he realized if he''s been driven to this, it is not healthy for them to be together. The rumor is that he is very disturbed by it.

That''s not the choke hold I was picturing. I thought it was where you put the arms crossed on their chest and push them down. If he was actually choking her then that''s excessive regardless of how much she was beating on him.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 6/8/2009 2:20:52 PM
Author: vespergirl
Since she was hitting him, he should have just walked out the door. I think that trying to restrain someone is a shady issue - sometimes men don''t know their own strength, and he could have really hurt her in that choke hold. His best choice would have been to leave the house and call the police immediately, which is the same advice I would give a woman who was being battered.

Overall, it sounds like a really sad situation, especially for those poor kids.

My understanding is that it wasn''t exactly easy to get out of there. But yeah, if you fight hard enough, I agree that you can manage to somehow get out of the house.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Two wrongs don''t make a right so I don''t think he should hit back to cause her pain. However, if he''s defending himself and he has to restrain her then that''s understandable.

 

[janinegirly]

what a horrible situation! it doesn't sound like either party was less at fault than the other--just bad behaovior all around.!Thank god they are getting a divorce, this could end up much worse that it already has.

I think in this situation it's very hard to be objective and lay out an opinion since it's at such a terrible point. It would have to be looked at legally (ie coldly) in which case of course an individual should defend themselves if they feel threatened. The part that becomes difficult to prove is that often a man's argument that he felt threatened is not taken seriously if he is much larger/heavier than the woman. If she's coming at him with a weapon, different story, but if she's physically attacking him, there is the arguement that he should have been able to restrain her, defend himself without attacking, or certainly, choking.

 

[D&T]

Date: 6/8/2009 1:47:14 PM
Author: elrohwen
If a man is being attacked, I think he has every right to try to restrain the woman, but he should try not to cause her any more harm than necessary to protect himself.

What a sad story, TGal!

totally agree... here, very sad story TGal,,

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

actual choking crosses the line, definitely. However I''m not surprised he did. Often times domestic violence escalates to the point where the victim snaps and does something sudden and very violent (think of how many husbands are shot by their wives).

It sounds like divorce is the best thing for both of them. I hope he has documentation of his injuries in case she tries to use this [choking] incident as a weapon against him during the divorce.

 

[trillionaire]

I was always taught that if you hit someone, expect to get hit back, period. Man or woman. You never know what different people''s breaking points are, and it is cowardly of women to go beating on guys with the expectation that nothing was going to happen in return. I also grew up with a brother that had no qualms about hitting us gals

, so I can take my lumps, and I can give them. Beating and abuse is NOT okay by any means, but you do a disservice to your sons AND daughters by allowing them to think that men won''t hit a woman back if provoked. It''s not a reasonable expectation.

 

[whitby_2773]

hi TGal

i only have one point and you can make of it what you will.

bruises on hands and arms are painful, definitely.

but choking can kill you.

its a whole different level of violence.

5''9" and tough sounds almost equal...except that it wasnt equal enough for her either to choke HIM, or for her to be able to get him off her. working in dispute resolution and with troubled kids and divorces etcetc i''ve worked in situations where domestic violence was an issue many times. for every time where you encounter a woman who is stronger than her male counterpart, there are thousands where the man is stronger than the woman. the power disparity is generally so great that i would virtually never take the ''oh sure - if she hits - it''s his right to hit back'' route.

there''s more to the issue than ''who hit first'' - there''s also ''who can hit hardest?''

if you find yourself in a relationship with an aggressive woman - leave her, divorce her, walk out the door at the moment of your choosing. but don''t hit, because it''s virtually never an equal fight and unequal fights are always ugly.

 

[princesss]

Date: 6/8/2009 2:17:37 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 6/8/2009 2:15:48 PM
Author: Starset Princess
If his arms were badly beaten from her blows, then it seems clear to me that he resisted using force for a long time before resorting to the choke hold. If she went crazy on him, I would understand his using a brute tactic to stop the beating. A choke hold is not choking her (at least the way I understand it.) A choke hold is wrapping your arm around someone''s neck from behind so that they cannot harm you with forward movement.

The story seems to be that he tried his best to defend himself for awhile then snapped. It wasn''t a choke hold, I believe it was CHOKING. And this is by his own very sad admission to one of his friends.

That changes things for me. I was thinking choke hold (arm around neck from behind, not cutting off air supply, but cutting off her ability to really get a good swing in to hit him). But choking...not good. I think he probably could have restrained her other ways.

 

[JulieN]

the minimum necessary to stop her from hitting him.

 

[musey]

Date: 6/8/2009 1:47:14 PM
Author: elrohwen
If a man is being attacked, I think he has every right to try to restrain the woman, but he should try not to cause her any more harm than necessary to protect himself.

Ditto... though I wouldn''t want to say that it''s "okay" for her to do what she did. I think violence coming from and directed at either gender is NOT OKAY, in ANY circumstance. Self defense = fine.

 

[TravelingGal]

I agree Whitby. I don''t know the details of the physical violence, but I''ll assume it was bad. I also don''t know if anything other than fists were involved...she has been known to swing a golf club before, and I''m not talking about on the green.

He probably did want to kill her.

This woman has three DUI''s (I''ve probably mentioned it before here) and the third time he wanted to leave her, but for better or for worse, right? He spent a lot of money on her defense and Paris Hilton used the same defense laywer that he used for his wife...she actually got off with just community service since we have cops in our circle of friends who were able to help out. The DUI''s were before I knew them, btw.

There is no doubt that this is a dysfunctional relationship. The sad part is that they are good people and well liked. I think we all roll our eyes at the wife from time to time because she''s a bit nuts. But they are generous, open and warm people. We''re really saddened by this and while part of me hopes they work it out, I''m not really sure how they can manage to sort through 20 years of bitterness.