ACLU addresses Trump

[distracts]

I have a very close friend whose son has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. The boy was in the military but was discharged due to physical and mental instability. He has been to VA doctors and lived at home for a time but he does not want help - refuses it and runs away. He chose to get on a plane to Hawaii and lives in an abandoned car near the beach. My friend is in contact with the local law enforcement and they check on him every so often. He goes to food kitchens to eat and smokes pot most of the day. There are many like him where he is and they do not want help. They choose to be homeless and do not want their life to change even though they have had access to all kinds of assistance. You cannot put all homeless into a category of helpless. There are many like these in other cities around the US.

If he has schizophrenia, that's not really a choice. Schizophrenics have one of the lowest rates of sticking to treatments and highest rates of homelessness of any mental illness. They're not all individually CHOOSING to do that - their mental illness does not leave them capable of making choices like you or I would think about them.

Have some freaking compassion.

 

[redwood66]

I have a very close friend whose son has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. The boy was in the military but was discharged due to physical and mental instability. He has been to VA doctors and lived at home for a time but he does not want help - refuses it and runs away. He chose to get on a plane to Hawaii and lives in an abandoned car near the beach. My friend is in contact with the local law enforcement and they check on him every so often. He goes to food kitchens to eat and smokes pot most of the day. There are many like him where he is and they do not want help. They choose to be homeless and do not want their life to change even though they have had access to all kinds of assistance. You cannot put all homeless into a category of helpless. There are many like these in other cities around the US.

If he has schizophrenia, that's not really a choice. Schizophrenics have one of the lowest rates of sticking to treatments and highest rates of homelessness of any mental illness. They're not all individually CHOOSING to do that - their mental illness does not leave them capable of making choices like you or I would think about them.

Have some freaking compassion.

What are you talking about compassion? I feel terrible for him and his family. Get off your high horse. I am merely stating that this is a fact for many homeless - mentally ill or not. What would you do - round them all up and force them into treatment?

 

[ruby59]

I have a very soft spot for the homeless. I see them as mentally ill people + very sad stories. I can't help but think that many mentally ill people who are living halfway normal lives are only doing so because their families loved them and stayed committed to them. The homeless people I see didn't have it so good. I can't imagine what it would be like to have to live with the incredible psychic pain of mental illness AND to have to deal with the physical challenges of homelessness. What gives them the will to survive? I get teary just thinking of it.

So I give them money whenever I have cash. My kids do too. I don't care if I've been conned a time or two if it means that I am helping one person who needs it at some point because that is a person in pain.

______________________________________________________

And that is the problem. They are on every street corner, every day.

Even if you give to 1 or 2, the rest want it as well. And they can be very aggressive when you do not give to them as well.

Who can afford to do that?

 

[ruby59]

Do you honestly believe that the majority of panhandlers are con artists who live in comfortable homes

Or is this something you tell yourself so that you can continue to judge harshly one of the weakest groups in our society?

________________________________________________

Well, one of the news stations sent out undercover reporters posing as the homeless.

They followed one woman to her house. Others were being picked up by cars.

And as I posted above the head of one of our homeless agencies recognized many as having apartments and collecting SSI.

So there were more than you think.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

When I see someone with a sign I rarely give them money, mainly because I don't carry cash most of the time. However if I am near a store or fast food place I will buy them a meal and give it to them. I have to drive into a major city to bring my son to school and on recycling days the homeless people with shopping carts will go around digging through the recycling bins for bottles. I did give one of them one day a dollar and a granola bar because it does take a huge effort to push that cart up and down the streets getting as many bottles as they can before the recycling truck gets there.

It's something to consider the next time you see someone panhandling. Just think, that is someone's son or daughter out there, if it was my kid I would hope someone would extend a kind gesture.

 

[ruby59]

Ruby,

The number of homeless people is one of the things that I find the most striking and sad every time I visit a US city. What it highlights to me is how your social saftety nets have failed huge numbers of people. The majority of homeless have mental health issues. Many are veterans. Some can't access shelters because they have pets that they refuse to abandon when they lost their homes. Most look very poor, unhealthy, and hungry to me (it's a level of desperation that I do not see at home). So, it seems to me, if you get sick enough, you lose your job, and your access to health care to treat the very issue that makes you unable to work. Here, we collect and treat our mentally ill. It's not perfect, but there is access to treatment, medication, shelters and temporary housing (paid for by the government) until they are able to manage on their own (or more permanent aid for those who aren't). Many families aren't equipped to deal with mental illness. Plus, it's easy to say to get a job when you are clean, fed, healthy, and have been taught how. Not so easy if you grew up being abused, illiterate, exposed to addictions and mental health issues, or when you are dirty, smelly, and sick.

So yeah, it's not pleasant seeing this, or being exposed to people at the worst times of their lives, but maybe it would help to try to have some compassion for how they might have ended up there rather than assuming it's their fault for being lazy. No one would choose to be homeless. And respectfully, you have no way of knowing who is or isn't unless you personally have seen where they sleep.

Also, be reassured that the shatter proof glass in your car windows cannot be broken by a fist, so they have no way to harm you at intersections. Also, most cities have anti loitering laws to protect businesses. But maybe the answer is to help each other rather than judge. I can't imagine how terrible it must be to have nothing, no one, and nowhere to go. May it never happen to any of us or anyone we love.

________________________________

And our state was doing fine until the ACLU stepped in. We had people who went out with blankets and food checking on the homeless nightly. On bad nights, they would be out there driving them to shelters, where there were people on hand to give them the resources they need.

Now many can be seen drinking and smoking pot with the proceeds.

As far as my shatter proof windows, one man panhandling was recently hit by a car because he dotted across the street to collect some money. The woman who hit him is devastated, now her life is ruined as well.

 

[House Cat]

I have a very close friend whose son has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. The boy was in the military but was discharged due to physical and mental instability. He has been to VA doctors and lived at home for a time but he does not want help - refuses it and runs away. He chose to get on a plane to Hawaii and lives in an abandoned car near the beach. My friend is in contact with the local law enforcement and they check on him every so often. He goes to food kitchens to eat and smokes pot most of the day. There are many like him where he is and they do not want help. They choose to be homeless and do not want their life to change even though they have had access to all kinds of assistance. You cannot put all homeless into a category of helpless. There are many like these in other cities around the US.

Redwood...

You are speaking rationally about the irrational. You use terms such as "he chose" when he may have been delusional or hearing/following command voices. If he wasn't medicated at the time that "he chose" to do any of the things you wrote here, we can assume he was under the influence of a severe mental illness and not thinking with a rational mind.

Mental illness lies to the brain and tells the person that they don't need help. It can make them completely unreachable. That is the very nature of the disease. Schiz, bipolar, depression, personality disorders, addiction, they all do it. One of the tough things about schiz is that psychosis can cushion a person from their rock bottom.

I think that the meds would be very difficult for a homeless person with severe mental illness to take as well. If the person had to take antipsychotics, he would need two weeks to sleep and adjust. County wouldn't give a homeless person a bed for that long. County isn't even giving insured people beds for that long. I think it might be dangerous for a homeless person to continuously sleep on the streets for that long . After adjusting to the meds, the person might feel very sedated and might feel unsafe on the streets. Sometimes it takes a person a long time to adjust to psych meds when they have a severe mental illness. The meds aren't all that great. Even for a person who is living a "normal" life, they might go through 10 med changes before finding the right cocktail. This isn't fine tuning either. This is, "no, that med did NOT work for me. I need something else." It is hard to see how a homeless person would have this ability to see a doctor this much.

I DO think there is a rare, random person who is just choosing to be homeless. When I really stop to think about that situation, I think there is some deficit in there too! Who didn't care for that person? What happened in his life to make him lack the ability to self-preserve? What is going on inside of him to want to live this way? This still seems like a situation that requires compassion. Although not a situation of mental illness, it still seems like a mental health condition to me.

I don't know what the answer is for these people. I have watched stories where cities have given them homes and jobs and that has helped reduce their homeless numbers. What I do know is what we are doing now isn't working.

 

[House Cat]

Do you honestly believe that the majority of panhandlers are con artists who live in comfortable homes

Or is this something you tell yourself so that you can continue to judge harshly one of the weakest groups in our society?

________________________________________________

Well, one of the news stations sent out undercover reporters posing as the homeless.
.

This is such an ugly thing to do.


Did they show you how many legitimate homeless people they had to follow before they caught a con? "Ahem, we followed homeless people around for 8 months....and finally we caught one!"

 

[ruby59]

Do you honestly believe that the majority of panhandlers are con artists who live in comfortable homes

Or is this something you tell yourself so that you can continue to judge harshly one of the weakest groups in our society?

________________________________________________

Well, one of the news stations sent out undercover reporters posing as the homeless.
.

This is such an ugly thing to do.


Did they show you how many legitimate homeless people they had to follow before they caught a con? "Ahem, we followed homeless people around for 8 months....and finally we caught one!"

http://turnto10.com/i-team/nbc-10-i-team-what-happens-when-the-panhandling-signs-come-down

 

[cmd2014]

I have a very close friend whose son has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. The boy was in the military but was discharged due to physical and mental instability. He has been to VA doctors and lived at home for a time but he does not want help - refuses it and runs away. He chose to get on a plane to Hawaii and lives in an abandoned car near the beach. My friend is in contact with the local law enforcement and they check on him every so often. He goes to food kitchens to eat and smokes pot most of the day. There are many like him where he is and they do not want help. They choose to be homeless and do not want their life to change even though they have had access to all kinds of assistance. You cannot put all homeless into a category of helpless. There are many like these in other cities around the US.

If he has schizophrenia, that's not really a choice. Schizophrenics have one of the lowest rates of sticking to treatments and highest rates of homelessness of any mental illness. They're not all individually CHOOSING to do that - their mental illness does not leave them capable of making choices like you or I would think about them.

Have some freaking compassion.

What are you talking about compassion? I feel terrible for him and his family. Get off your high horse. I am merely stating that this is a fact for many homeless - mentally ill or not. What would you do - round them all up and force them into treatment?

Yes, this is what we do here. When someone becomes so ill that they no longer have the capacity to make rational choices about their own care (i.e., cannot understand the consequences of their choices) we involuntarily commit them to hospital (which the government pays for). They are medicated and held until their symptoms have cleared enough to make them safe to be discharged (sometimes this is for a month or more), and they work with social workers to find a place to live, get access to welfare, and re-connect with their families, if possible. Social work also connects them with community mental health workers (paid for by the government health care system), and they are assigned a psychiatrist for follow-up on discharge.

Schizophrenia (and other forms of severe mental illness) stops people from being able to understand things the way that you and I might. It can cause to you believe that people may be trying to harm you, or that the medicine is poison, or that God has told you to run away from the police, or that your family are minions of Satan trying to harm you. People who are severely mentally ill also often don't realize that they are sick and that this stuff isn't real - so you can see how challenging it is to convince someone that they need to be compliant with treatment. The medicine also makes most people feel really sick, so that doesn't help. Plus, the medicine is expensive (and most of these people won't have health insurance), it requires ongoing medical follow-up including blood work, and it needs to be adjusted up and down across time to keep symptoms under control. This is all beyond the capability of someone without adequate supports.

At the same time, families get burned out. Many make it a condition for staying in the family home that the person needs to be on their meds, because living with someone who is actively psychotic and delusional is not livable for the rest of the family. But when someone is psychotic and delusional, they don't know that they are not thinking clearly. All of this stuff just seems real.

So here, if someone has had a certain number of failed attempts to stay on medication, and if they become unable to care for themselves when they are sick, they become bound by law to attend for long-acting intramuscular neuroleptic shots (and the police go find them if they miss their appointments). Allowing people to stay sick when that very illness robs them of the ability to know that they are sick and that they need help is not acceptable. And no, it's not really a choice.

 

[ruby59]

http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/studies/state-standards-involuntary-treatment.html
________________________________

Not sure where you live, if it is outside the US.

But here involuntary commitment varies state to state. And for many the person has to be a significant danger to himself and others.

And he can only be held for a limited amount of days and has to be continued to be reevaluated.

There is not much anyone can do if he refuses to follow his treatment after being released other than to start the procedure all over again.

 

[redwood66]

I have a very close friend whose son has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. The boy was in the military but was discharged due to physical and mental instability. He has been to VA doctors and lived at home for a time but he does not want help - refuses it and runs away. He chose to get on a plane to Hawaii and lives in an abandoned car near the beach. My friend is in contact with the local law enforcement and they check on him every so often. He goes to food kitchens to eat and smokes pot most of the day. There are many like him where he is and they do not want help. They choose to be homeless and do not want their life to change even though they have had access to all kinds of assistance. You cannot put all homeless into a category of helpless. There are many like these in other cities around the US.

Redwood...

You are speaking rationally about the irrational. You use terms such as "he chose" when he may have been delusional or hearing/following command voices. If he wasn't medicated at the time that "he chose" to do any of the things you wrote here, we can assume he was under the influence of a severe mental illness and not thinking with a rational mind.

Mental illness lies to the brain and tells the person that they don't need help. It can make them completely unreachable. That is the very nature of the disease. Schiz, bipolar, depression, personality disorders, addiction, they all do it. One of the tough things about schiz is that psychosis can cushion a person from their rock bottom.

I think that the meds would be very difficult for a homeless person with severe mental illness to take as well. If the person had to take antipsychotics, he would need two weeks to sleep and adjust. County wouldn't give a homeless person a bed for that long. County isn't even giving insured people beds for that long. I think it might be dangerous for a homeless person to continuously sleep on the streets for that long . After adjusting to the meds, the person might feel very sedated and might feel unsafe on the streets. Sometimes it takes a person a long time to adjust to psych meds when they have a severe mental illness. The meds aren't all that great. Even for a person who is living a "normal" life, they might go through 10 med changes before finding the right cocktail. This isn't fine tuning either. This is, "no, that med did NOT work for me. I need something else." It is hard to see how a homeless person would have this ability to see a doctor this much.

I DO think there is a rare, random person who is just choosing to be homeless. When I really stop to think about that situation, I think there is some deficit in there too! Who didn't care for that person? What happened in his life to make him lack the ability to self-preserve? What is going on inside of him to want to live this way? This still seems like a situation that requires compassion. Although not a situation of mental illness, it still seems like a mental health condition to me.

I don't know what the answer is for these people. I have watched stories where cities have given them homes and jobs and that has helped reduce their homeless numbers. What I do know is what we are doing now isn't working.

HC - My comment to distracts about compassion is because she assumed that I am not compassionate. Those of you who are liberals have not cornered the market on compassion.

My friend's son has been an inpatient at the VA, he has been given medication, therapy, etc. and there is nothing left to do as he can function most of the time which means that he cannot be involuntarily committed. He will not take any meds, runs away, fights, gets beat up and the list goes on and on. It breaks my heart and my friend's for sure. His son is so volatile that he cannot be around the rest of the family because they are afraid to sleep at night. I don't know what the answer for these people is either but one must acknowledge that there are people who do not want help - or won't accept it.

 

[House Cat]

I have a very close friend whose son has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. The boy was in the military but was discharged due to physical and mental instability. He has been to VA doctors and lived at home for a time but he does not want help - refuses it and runs away. He chose to get on a plane to Hawaii and lives in an abandoned car near the beach. My friend is in contact with the local law enforcement and they check on him every so often. He goes to food kitchens to eat and smokes pot most of the day. There are many like him where he is and they do not want help. They choose to be homeless and do not want their life to change even though they have had access to all kinds of assistance. You cannot put all homeless into a category of helpless. There are many like these in other cities around the US.

Redwood...

You are speaking rationally about the irrational. You use terms such as "he chose" when he may have been delusional or hearing/following command voices. If he wasn't medicated at the time that "he chose" to do any of the things you wrote here, we can assume he was under the influence of a severe mental illness and not thinking with a rational mind.

Mental illness lies to the brain and tells the person that they don't need help. It can make them completely unreachable. That is the very nature of the disease. Schiz, bipolar, depression, personality disorders, addiction, they all do it. One of the tough things about schiz is that psychosis can cushion a person from their rock bottom.

I think that the meds would be very difficult for a homeless person with severe mental illness to take as well. If the person had to take antipsychotics, he would need two weeks to sleep and adjust. County wouldn't give a homeless person a bed for that long. County isn't even giving insured people beds for that long. I think it might be dangerous for a homeless person to continuously sleep on the streets for that long . After adjusting to the meds, the person might feel very sedated and might feel unsafe on the streets. Sometimes it takes a person a long time to adjust to psych meds when they have a severe mental illness. The meds aren't all that great. Even for a person who is living a "normal" life, they might go through 10 med changes before finding the right cocktail. This isn't fine tuning either. This is, "no, that med did NOT work for me. I need something else." It is hard to see how a homeless person would have this ability to see a doctor this much.

I DO think there is a rare, random person who is just choosing to be homeless. When I really stop to think about that situation, I think there is some deficit in there too! Who didn't care for that person? What happened in his life to make him lack the ability to self-preserve? What is going on inside of him to want to live this way? This still seems like a situation that requires compassion. Although not a situation of mental illness, it still seems like a mental health condition to me.

I don't know what the answer is for these people. I have watched stories where cities have given them homes and jobs and that has helped reduce their homeless numbers. What I do know is what we are doing now isn't working.

HC - My comment to distracts about compassion is because she assumed that I am not compassionate. Those of you who are liberals have not cornered the market on compassion.

My friend's son has been an inpatient at the VA, he has been given medication, therapy, etc. and there is nothing left to do as he can function most of the time which means that he cannot be involuntarily committed. He will not take any meds, runs away, fights, gets beat up and the list goes on and on. It breaks my heart and my friend's for sure. His son is so volatile that he cannot be around the rest of the family because they are afraid to sleep at night. I don't know what the answer for these people is either but one must acknowledge that there are people who do not want help - or won't accept it.

Hi red,

For the record, I wrote my response before seeing the exchange between you and distracts. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make you feel as if you didn't have compassion for this person. I was just trying to say that we must not try to expect the rational out of a person with untreated or poorly treated mental illness. I say poorly treated, meaning, not the right meds... remember, the meds are a crap shoot.

These stories break my heart too. I call them "too sick to really know that they need help." Choosing not to get help, refusing help, running away, these are all symptoms of severe illness. When people use the language "they don't want help," it makes it seem as though the mentally ill person is operating with a completely normal brain and making sound decisions. They aren't. Their brain is completely hijacked by a disease. "Not wanting help" is a symptom of their disease. Sure, there are moments of lucidity, they just aren't long enough or strong enough to make treatment stick.

And, I find my mind and heart back on the merry-go-round...wishing for a magic solution. It's long-term and it lies with more research and better treatment.

<3

 

[AGBF]

Some people have responded appropriately to the threat of Trump's rhetoric and the appointments he has announced after the election. This is heartening, no matter what has been said in this thread. Read about the surge in donations to organizations fighting for civil liberties.

The ACLU is only one organization that benefited from the surge in donations.

"The American Civil Liberties Union, which defends the rights of the individual, said on Monday that it had received more than $7 million from about 120,000 donations over the five days after the election. During the same period after the 2012 election, the group collected less than $28,000 from 354 donations.

'This is the greatest outpouring of support for the A.C.L.U. in our nearly 100-year history, greater than the days after 9/11,' Anthony D. Romero, the group’s executive director, said in a statement on Monday. 'All of this support will be put to good use protecting the rights of all Americans.'

By the end of Tuesday, the group’s postelection tally had risen to nearly $9 million."

Link...http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/18/us/politics/nonprofit-donations-trump.html?_r=0

AGBF