how much yellow can cut hide?

[sxn675]

DancingFire, I don''t think he got advice to fudge on the cut. He got advice not to get hung up on color or clarity (that''s how I read it anyway).

Anyway, I''m married to a surgery resident, so I hear you on the loans. My husband''s loans are more than our mortgage! Needless to say, our total budget was tiny (like half yours). He was going to go to Tiffany''s and I freaked out and luckily I found some forums to educate myself. He was an intern thent, so as you can imagine, he had practically NO time so I pretty much did all of the searching and he paid

One thing we did do was look for rings together. Your girlfriend is going to think this is fun, so keep that in mind. If I were you, I would say that you want to get an idea of what looks good on her hand. Originally, I had my heart set on a three-stone ring, but as we looked at things and tried them on, we both liked the solitaire. In the store, everything looks good, so you won''t really be able to tell how color-sensitive she is. So, I would view the ring-shopping as a chance to look at different sizes and settings. My ring is an H, SI1 A Cut Above from Whiteflash set in platinum. It''s almost a carat. But, even the attending''s wives compliment me on it and as you can probably guess, some of them have honkers! So, that should tell you something

Good luck!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/3/2005 12:14:22 AM
Author: sxn675
DancingFire, I don''t think he got advice to fudge on the cut. He got advice not to get hung up on color or clarity (that''s how I read it anyway).

Good luck!

sxn675
here''s what set2374 wrote...
I would take a step or two down on the cut and keep the color H and above

 

[sxn675]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that he said to forget about the cut or that cut wasn't important. After all, that could be an almost hearts and arrows (like with a misshapen heart) or something or one of the "Expert Selection" diamonds from Whiteflash. I consider those a step or two below what we all wind up with here, but still very beautiful diamonds.

Edited to add: I guess it depends on how we define things. Isn't it funny how the Pricescope world is so different from the rest of the world? I viewed his advice as a step or two below a super-duper extra ideal cut, but a "normal" person might think that his advice was to go with a non-ideal cut or even to go with some frozen spit. I never tell people details about my ring or too much about what I know in the real world because I don't want them to think I am nuts (unless I think that I've found a fellow obsessive person

 

[rickyrockranger]

Also - please lets not forget the fact that a diamond''s value is still primarly determined by color, clarity, and carat weight. I''m not minimizing the cut at all - but from a true value perspective, all things being equal, a well cut D/E/F stone is more valuable than any ultra-ideal cut K/L/M of the same carat weight.

And - I would like to know if anyone here can, without the use of an idealscope/ASET/etc - determine a 40.0 degree pavillion angle vs. a 41.0 degree pav. angle - or if the stone has a perfect light return vs. very good light return, etc. I know I can''t - but I''ll tell you a G from J/K every time.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/3/2005 12:54:25 AM
Author: sxn675
Yeah, but that doesn''t mean that he said to forget about the cut or that cut wasn''t important. After all, that could be an almost hearts and arrows (like with a misshapen heart) or something or one of the ''Expert Selection'' diamonds from Whiteflash. I consider those a step or two below what we all wind up with here, but still very beautiful diamonds.

i don''t think you can buy these for 20% back of rap.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 7/3/2005 12:54:25 AM
Author: sxn675
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that he said to forget about the cut or that cut wasn't important. After all, that could be an almost hearts and arrows (like with a misshapen heart) or something or one of the 'Expert Selection' diamonds from Whiteflash. I consider those a step or two below what we all wind up with here, but still very beautiful diamonds.

Quick clarification: Most Expert Selection rounds actually do have ideal specs and top light return, so I would never call them a 'step below' most PS diamonds. They may not be true H&A by our standards but they are still tops on the global scale of cut.

That minority of ES with non-ideal proportions were selected for visible beauty. You & Dancing Fire are both correct in that those will be priced accordingly.

Not meaning to intrude. I just wanted to address the ES reference since some are quite close to being ACA, and would be sold as H&A in some places.

Edited to add: While I was writing this and getting a diet coke there were a couple more posts and an Sxn edit - forgive redundancy please.

 

[Mara]

Date: 7/3/2005 1:03:44 AM
Author: rickyrockranger

And - I would like to know if anyone here can, without the use of an idealscope/ASET/etc - determine a 40.0 degree pavillion angle vs. a 41.0 degree pav. angle - or if the stone has a perfect light return vs. very good light return, etc. I know I can't - but I'll tell you a G from J/K every time.

Actually you could probably tell that the 40 pav stone looked different than the 41 pav stone in terms of how the diamond looks/sparkles, depending on the other specs...not that it would be horrible at all, but I bet that someone staring at both diamonds could tell that there was something different between the two stones.

Possibly exactly how someone looking at two stones with colors of D and J could tell that there was a difference between the two stones, but if you did not tell them WHAT, they would not be able to say that one looked more colorless. They would just say that something possibly looked different.

The small nuances are not cut and dry with diamonds...with ANY of the 4c's...with CUT I think it's almost more visible than color. Sure you may not notice the difference exactly between two ideal stones, but having seen and owning a non-ideal and wearing it daily, the minute I opened the box and saw my new ideal-cut almost H&A stone, the difference was strikingly visible right away, if by nothing else than the symmetry in the new stone.

 

[Mara]

Date: 7/3/2005 1:31:10 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 7/3/2005 12:54:25 AM
Author: sxn675
Yeah, but that doesn''t mean that he said to forget about the cut or that cut wasn''t important. After all, that could be an almost hearts and arrows (like with a misshapen heart) or something or one of the ''Expert Selection'' diamonds from Whiteflash. I consider those a step or two below what we all wind up with here, but still very beautiful diamonds.

Quick clarification: Most Expert Selection rounds actually do have ideal specs and top light return, so I would never call them a ''step below'' most PS diamonds. They may not be true H&A by our standards but they are still tops on a global scale.

That minority of ES with non-ideal proportions were selected for visible beauty. You & Dancing Fire are both correct in that those will be priced accordingly.

Not meaning to intrude. I just wanted to address the ES reference since some are quite close to being ACA, and would be sold as H&A in some places.

Actually...the stats on who has an ES vs an ACA may be about equal. Definitely not a step below what most PS''ers have...many of them end up with ES if the selection on ACA is not there.

Mara...the proud owner of three ACA''s and one ES!!

 

[sxn675]

I didn't mean to imply that Expert Selection were inferior! What I meant was that sometimes on Pricescope our standards reflect the top 1% on a global scale so if someone suggests a step or two down, they might mean a normal H&A or an almost H&A. Forget I said anything about a specific brand .

ETA: Anyway, this is way off topic, so good luck drkewl if you get to the end of this!

 

[Dancing Fire]

John Q
what i''m trying to say is.....you can''t buy ES quality stones @ 20% back. set''s advise was to shoot for 20% back.just because some one bought a stone @ 20% back,that doesn''t mean he/she got a good deal.99% of the time the stone will be off on the cut.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/2/2005 12:25:09 PM
Author: FireGoddess

Date: 7/2/2005 8:09:33 AM
Author: set2374
(again DrKewl, you should work on your reading comprehension before shooting your mouth off)

Not to be trite, but maybe you should work on yours before you shoot YOUR mouth offD. rKewl simply asked the original question, he has not replied since.

Secondly, we hear your point of view, but remember it is only your point of view based on your OWN experience. Everyone here has had different experiences and thus this forum is of collective ''wisdom.'' There is no need for the snide remarks, as above. DF (who you should actually be addressing) had a different opinion than yours (based on buying a heck of a lot more than just one ring) and expressed it. That''s it.

Anyway, my point was to clarify that you keep referring to DrKewl and his comments...and in reality he hasn''t HAD any. He merely asked the original question.

FG
this is too funny....

let him shoot his mouth off. somebody is making a fool of himself.in more ways than one

 

[Lynn B]

Just popping back into this thread to mention that I wish it was entitled, "How much COLOR can cut hide?" IMVHO, we need to work on squashing the pervading notion that "color" is synonymous with "yellow"! My gorgeous, brand new 2.36 J/SI2 has a hint of "warmth" to it... but there is no "yellow" whatsoever!

Lynn

 

[set2374]

Date: 7/2/2005 10:46:47 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
SET2374,
i think you should be talking to me. first of all, it''s bad advice to tell somebody to fudge on the cut. you will not see color or clarity from across the room, but if your stone is a nice cut, you can see sparkles from across the room. i have nothing against G/H color or SI stones. the reason people are getting a discount like 20% back of rap is because of cut quality. there are plenty of these kinds of stones selling on ebay. i know cut is very important because, i had a stone recut for better preformance.

below is a link to a poster (Mr.GG) who claims he can sell nice ideal cuts for 20% back of rap. at teh end he admits he can''t.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-selection-so-how-did-i-do.30046/page-3

I apologize for misdirecting my earlier comments. But you''re still not getting it!! What I wrote was, "You can really tell the difference between a G color and I, regardless of the cut." All I was saying was that you can tell the difference in color "regardless of the cut" and that the cut, in my opinion, as great as it may be, isn''t going to turn an I into a G. That, IN NO WAY, means that someone should fudge on cut and I do no say otherwise anywhere in my comments. Cut is problably the most important determining factor in a diamond''s brillance, scintilation and fire (and I have seen I1 stones with more fire and scinitillation than a VS1 because of superior cut). So, read a little more carefully!

 

[set2374]

Date: 7/3/2005 12:14:22 AM
Author: sxn675
DancingFire, I don''t think he got advice to fudge on the cut. He got advice not to get hung up on color or clarity (that''s how I read it anyway).

Anyway, I''m married to a surgery resident, so I hear you on the loans. My husband''s loans are more than our mortgage! Needless to say, our total budget was tiny (like half yours). He was going to go to Tiffany''s and I freaked out and luckily I found some forums to educate myself. He was an intern thent, so as you can imagine, he had practically NO time so I pretty much did all of the searching and he paid

One thing we did do was look for rings together. Your girlfriend is going to think this is fun, so keep that in mind. If I were you, I would say that you want to get an idea of what looks good on her hand. Originally, I had my heart set on a three-stone ring, but as we looked at things and tried them on, we both liked the solitaire. In the store, everything looks good, so you won''t really be able to tell how color-sensitive she is. So, I would view the ring-shopping as a chance to look at different sizes and settings. My ring is an H, SI1 A Cut Above from Whiteflash set in platinum. It''s almost a carat. But, even the attending''s wives compliment me on it and as you can probably guess, some of them have honkers! So, that should tell you something

Good luck!

That''s excellent advise and right on point. The diamond should be up to you (DrKewl, the fact that you are doing your homework and are posting on this site, means by the time you make the decision, you are going to make the right one when it comes to the diamond). The setting, however, is totally a matter of taste and you need some imput from her on the subject.

 

[rickyrockranger]

I think another critical factor here is this:

Take two diamonds - both are equal carat weight. One is cut dead-perfect, the other is cut very well. The ultra ideal is a K-VS2 and the very well cut is a G VS2 (both GIA certed and accurately graded). In terms of real value (the cash conversion value) the G VS2 is more valuable.

The Ultra ideal cut K VS2 should not, in theory, be priced anywhere near the very well cut G VS2. And if you are paying that much of a premium, that''s your choice, but its a questionable economic decision.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/1/2005 7:34:18 PM
Author: set2374
I would take a step or two down on the cut and keep the color H and above
a better advise would be to go down in size.

get a hold of a Rappaport Sheet.
no need to ,just ask the vendor

You should shoot to pay 20% under Rap. If you can your diamond for that price, you did very very very well.

wrong advise, just because he/she paid 20% back that doesn''t mean he/she got a gooddiamond.all it means is he/she got a good price.it''s two different matters.

 

[carrot]

Other than the fancy color grades, all diamonds which are not color grade D have some degree of internal color. Typically, this color is yellow or brown, and to varying degrees, this internal color detracts from the value and the transparency of the stone. The color of the diamond is the color of the diamond and neither the cut nor the shape changes that. Don't deceive yourself into thinking that cut will make a diamond look like a higher color grade if it was graded accurately in the first place. If you buy a J, you are going to live with a J, and there is a difference even between an I and a J, much less a D and a J.

When diamonds are graded, they are examined with the table down and in a white tray. That presents the best view of the color in a stone and is used to make the grading as accurate as possible. But don't kid yourself into thinking that that yellow or brown tinge disappears when the diamond is face up, or when it is mounted. It doesn't. Color grade differences can be seen in mounted diamonds when viewed face up!

The diamond buying public agrees that the more colorless a stone is, the more desireable it is. That is the reason that prices steadily increase as the color grade increases. There is a lot of conversation about a J looking "white" or an I looking "white". The reality is that these diamonds are NOT white and they are not colorless!

Perhaps you can't see the difference between color grades. Perhaps color is not important to you. Maybe size is more important to you than color. If it is, you have a lot of comapany. Should you choose to buy a J color grade so that your budget will buy a bigger diamond, that is your decision, as it is any buyer's. Just be honest with yourself about the trade off you are making.

 

[MissAva]

Some people do nto have as strong of color perception as others. Some people disagree on the color hence things beallowed to go up or down one the a grading scale without consequence. Personally I can see color more easily when the stone is poorly cut. I do beleive that is what the others are trying to say as well.

 

[drkewl]

LOL wow this thread has exploded! I will read through all the posts but first wanted to tell you how my weekend went! We went to Jareds In Richmond to check out diamonds and settings. I talked to the saleslady to show us a number of 1 carat diamonds, different cuts, clarity, and color. Starting with cut, i now 100% agree: CUT IS KING!!! It is one thing to read about it but it was another thing to actually see it in person. We took a few diamonds outside with her and the security guard in tow to see how they look in non-articficial lighting. I felt like it help accentuate the difference between the more ideal cut diamonds versus the lower 'cut' diamonds. My gf could easily tell the ideal cut had more 'sparkle' to it

Next came clarity. I explained to my gf about the 'technical definitions' from IF all the way to the SI2. The sales lady then showed us diamonds from VS1 to SI2. I then asked her to try and see if she could find any inclusions.. the sales lady seemed confident she wouldn't. So obviously she did lol. She was quickly able to find a tiny piece of carbon in the SI2 and SI1... she even found something very slightly 'cloudy' in the VS2. I could barely make it out but the sales lady concurred with her! Ok so I need to be very careful when it comes to clarity!!! The entire car ride home she mentioned maybe 4 or 5 times the 'black pimple on the beautiful diamond.. how tragic' lol

Lastly came color. When she placed two diamonds next to each other, one a E one an I and asked her to pick out the more 'yellow' one, she did that with ease (as did I). Next she put a G next to the I. That was a tough one.... My gf and I disagreed on the more yellow one... we asked the security guard for his opinion: he sided with me! Turns out the men were wrong as my gf correctly picked out the I diamond, although she admitted it was extremely close and face up they looked identical!

I also found she would prefer a simple solitaire setting (6 prongs) although if she 'found something she liked in a magazine picture or something she would tell me' I'm pretty pooped now as I just got back home and need to hit the sack. Will write some more tomorrow!

you guys are awesome, thanks for all the wonderful posts! I will try and reply tomorrow!

 

[belle]

it sounds like you had a good diamond lesson today!

i would just like to note that not all si2''s will have such readily visible inclusions. i have looked at si2''s that don''t show inclusions (and yes, i am VERY picky!) without a loupe. so, don''t rule out all si2''s!

 

[Mara]

Date: 7/3/2005 11:12:38 PM
Author: carrot

But don''t kid yourself into thinking that that yellow or brown tinge disappears when the diamond is face up, or when it is mounted. It doesn''t. Color grade differences can be seen in mounted diamonds when viewed face up!

There is a lot of conversation about a J looking ''white'' or an I looking ''white''. The reality is that these diamonds are NOT white and they are not colorless!

Should you choose to buy a J color grade so that your budget will buy a bigger diamond, that is your decision, as it is any buyer''s. Just be honest with yourself about the trade off you are making.

I have owned E, G, H, I, J and N diamonds. Face up, barring the Ns which were horribly cut, all of the stones pretty much look the same to me FACE UP. My e-ring was a G then an H and now a J. The G and the H looked the same to me side by side, face up, face down, any which way. The J looks the same to me face up as the G and H. Now from the side/pavilion area, I can definitely see a tinge in the J that was not present in the G or H for me. But it''s very very mild. When mounted? Not at all face up. Side/pavilion? Yeah sure a bit in the J only. My husband has a mounted E and I have a mounted J. We compared them the other night in ''regular'' viewing, aka candlelight. Not a whit of difference to him. Scrutinizing loose stones against a white paper is not regular viewing.

So I hugely disagree that face up you will see a J color in a well-cut stone, or an I or an H vs something like a G. Now from the SIDE, that is a different thing and many people agree they can see some color from the sides but many say from top down they can''t see a difference.

Also, as someone else pointed out, color sensitivity has alot to do with it. I am not that color sensitive, I wore N''s on my ears for 2 years without realizing they weren''t H''s!! Go figure.

My point here is that one person''s color sensitivity is not another''s. So for some people, they aren''t really making a huge trade off. It''s important to realize that there are different views and not any one view is right. I recognize color sensitivity is different for people, and I am not color sensitive while others are and can pick out nuances in one color change difference.

But to say that EVERY stone to EVERY person looks yellow or brown if it''s not colorless...is definitely not true.

 

[sxn675]

DrKewl, I'm glad that you and your girlfriend had fun shopping. So it looks like you're looking for perhaps a G or H colored stone with pretty good clarity. One thing to keep in mind is what the inclusions are like. White inclusions won't show the way that black carbon spots do. And that's great that you agreed on a setting. Depending on what you choose, you might be able to get your whole ring for under your budget and still have room to pay for a diamond band for the wedding band AND a pair of small diamond earrings for a wedding gift (look at me, always thinking!). Or, you could go up in size (my personal vote!).

When are you planning to propose? You will get a ton of advice here, but if you read through the tutorials and spend some time in different threads, you'll be able to sift through everything and figure out what you want go do. Good luck!

 

[Lynn B]

I am hoping that Carrot didn''t mean to sound so offensive!

Because those comments that Mara referenced above could certainly be perceived that way!

Yes, we all agree - "D" color stones are more expensive. More "transparent". No one is arguing that, Carrot! But is "D" everyone''s favorite??? If a person doesn''t buy a "D", have they sold out or worse, just "sadly settled"??! No! Some people LOVE the soft white of lower graded diamonds (and I am one of them!)

Lynn

 

[rickyrockranger]

If you went to Jared, I''m fairly certain you were looking at IGI graded stones. Looks at some GIA or AGS SI1''s - you''ll never, ever, ever have an eye visible inclusion. Most SI2''s are even eye clean.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 7/3/2005 11:12:38 PM
Author: carrot

When diamonds are graded, they are examined with the table down and in a white tray. That presents the best view of the color in a stone and is used to make the grading as accurate as possible. But don''t kid yourself into thinking that that yellow or brown tinge disappears when the diamond is face up, or when it is mounted. It doesn''t. Color grade differences can be seen in mounted diamonds when viewed face up!

The diamond buying public agrees that the more colorless a stone is, the more desireable it is. That is the reason that prices steadily increase as the color grade increases. There is a lot of conversation about a J looking ''white'' or an I looking ''white''. The reality is that these diamonds are NOT white and they are not colorless!

. Just be honest with yourself about the trade off you are making.

A well cut stone can mask color face up. PERIOD. It''s simple science. And, whether or not a stone will show more color face up is far more intricate than just a color grade. And, the mounting that one chooses will also determine color perception. Should one buy a J & pay for a stone priced at a G? No one is suggesting that.

And, no the diamond buying public DOES NOT agree that a more colorless stone is more desirable. It''s got more to do with RARITY. Many folks LIKE warmer stones. The reality IS that an I color stone is NEAR COLORLESS.

And, Most people are PERFECTLY aware of the trade off they are making. Color isn''t everyone''s priority. We all mesh our parameters to fit our budget, eye & criteria.

 

[belle]

Date: 7/4/2005 11:07:18 AM
Author: fire&ice


A well cut stone can mask color face up. PERIOD. It's simple science. And, whether or not a stone will show more color face up is far more intricate than just a color grade. And, the mounting that one chooses will also determine color perception. Should one buy a J & pay for a stone priced at a G? No one is suggesting that.

And, no the diamond buying public DOES NOT agree that a more colorless stone is more desirable. It's got more to do with RARITY. Many folks LIKE warmer stones. The reality IS that an I color stone is NEAR COLORLESS.

And, Most people are PERFECTLY aware of the trade off they are making. Color isn't everyone's priority. We all mesh our parameters to fit our budget, eye & criteria.

exactly.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 7/3/2005 11:47:10 PM
Author: drkewl
LOL wow this thread has exploded! I will read through all the posts but first wanted to tell you how my weekend went! We went to Jareds In Richmond to check out diamonds and settings. I talked to the saleslady to show us a number of 1 carat diamonds, different cuts, clarity, and color. Starting with cut, i now 100% agree: CUT IS KING!!! It is one thing to read about it but it was another thing to actually see it in person. We took a few diamonds outside with her and the security guard in tow to see how they look in non-articficial lighting. I felt like it help accentuate the difference between the more ideal cut diamonds versus the lower ''cut'' diamonds. My gf could easily tell the ideal cut had more ''sparkle'' to it

Next came clarity. I explained to my gf about the ''technical definitions'' from IF all the way to the SI2. The sales lady then showed us diamonds from VS1 to SI2. I then asked her to try and see if she could find any inclusions.. the sales lady seemed confident she wouldn''t. So obviously she did lol. She was quickly able to find a tiny piece of carbon in the SI2 and SI1... she even found something very slightly ''cloudy'' in the VS2. I could barely make it out but the sales lady concurred with her! Ok so I need to be very careful when it comes to clarity!!! The entire car ride home she mentioned maybe 4 or 5 times the ''black pimple on the beautiful diamond.. how tragic'' lol

Lastly came color. When she placed two diamonds next to each other, one a E one an I and asked her to pick out the more ''yellow'' one, she did that with ease (as did I). Next she put a G next to the I. That was a tough one.... My gf and I disagreed on the more yellow one... we asked the security guard for his opinion: he sided with me! Turns out the men were wrong as my gf correctly picked out the I diamond, although she admitted it was extremely close and face up they looked identical!

I also found she would prefer a simple solitaire setting (6 prongs) although if she ''found something she liked in a magazine picture or something she would tell me'' I''m pretty pooped now as I just got back home and need to hit the sack. Will write some more tomorrow!

you guys are awesome, thanks for all the wonderful posts! I will try and reply tomorrow!

One thing, not all SI1''s are created equal in terms of "eye clean". And, from your''s and your girlfriend''s reaction to color maybe an I color will work for you.

 

[MissAva]

Date: 7/4/2005 11:07:18 AM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 7/3/2005 11:12:38 PM
Author: carrot

When diamonds are graded, they are examined with the table down and in a white tray. That presents the best view of the color in a stone and is used to make the grading as accurate as possible. But don''t kid yourself into thinking that that yellow or brown tinge disappears when the diamond is face up, or when it is mounted. It doesn''t. Color grade differences can be seen in mounted diamonds when viewed face up!

The diamond buying public agrees that the more colorless a stone is, the more desireable it is. That is the reason that prices steadily increase as the color grade increases. There is a lot of conversation about a J looking ''white'' or an I looking ''white''. The reality is that these diamonds are NOT white and they are not colorless!

. Just be honest with yourself about the trade off you are making.

A well cut stone can mask color face up. PERIOD. It''s simple science. And, whether or not a stone will show more color face up is far more intricate than just a color grade. And, the mounting that one chooses will also determine color perception. Should one buy a J & pay for a stone priced at a G? No one is suggesting that.

And, no the diamond buying public DOES NOT agree that a more colorless stone is more desirable. It''s got more to do with RARITY. Many folks LIKE warmer stones. The reality IS that an I color stone is NEAR COLORLESS.

And, Most people are PERFECTLY aware of the trade off they are making. Color isn''t everyone''s priority. We all mesh our parameters to fit our budget, eye & criteria.

Here HereF&I, you took the words right out of my mouth....

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/4/2005 10:18:52 AM
Author: rickyrockranger
If you went to Jared, I''m fairly certain you were looking at IGI graded stones. Looks at some GIA or AGS SI1''s - you''ll never, ever, ever have an eye visible inclusion. Most SI2''s are even eye clean.

I wish I could agree with you on this, but I have seen way too many SI1''s from both AGS and GIA that had visible inclusions. Although many SI1''s, 2''s and even I1''s are eye clean, (yes, even I1''s can be eye clean, rare, but there are some) it is always a better bet to depend on your viewing the stone than trusting the paper. I agree with your desire for those two labs, especially over IGI, but even then you must see the stone to know for sure.

Wink

 

[rickyrockranger]

That hasn''t been my experience with GIA/AGS Si1''s. Are we talking table down eye clean, or through the pavillion?

Maybe I need better glasses!