how much yellow can cut hide?

[drkewl]

Hello everyone! i''ve been a lurker for a few weeks as i''ve just started the process of educating myself on diamonds so i can pick a great one out for my soon to be fiance by the end of the year I''ve read in many places that an ideal cut diamond can make a H or I diamond look more like a G... is this true? At first i was pretty set on VS2 clarity and G color... but i''m wondering if i''m paying for something like the ''a cut above'' diamonds at Whiteflash whether the color can me knocked down a notch or so so i can increase the carat weight

i have a budget of about 10k to work with for the whole package so i was trying to get something around the 1.15-1.3 carat range!

Thanks in advance for any tips or suggestions

 

[treysar]

I am by no means a professional in anyway, just a diamond loving consumer – however I own a very white, ideal cut 1.14 H RB – , and I have seen a very yellow G RB that I am assuming was poorly cut.

I have also seen other shapes in the color G that have appeared yellow, and I also assumed that this is because a round cut shows color less than other cuts.

Hope this helps – but you know what happens when you assume...

You make an ass out of U and ME…

 

[FireGoddess]

A good cut can help to mask color, and in lower colors some blue fluorescence will also make a diamond appear whiter. But an I is an I is an I... etc (the color grader did not grade the rough, s/he graded the faceted diamond, and assigned it a grade). Also in recent threads it''s been discussed how lighting can dramatically affect the way a diamond looks (duh!) - for instance, I can''t recall who (sorry!), but someone bought an I or J stone and loved it in daylight...but at night, felt the color was too perceptible and returned it. The point of my ramble is that you should take a look at a few stones in different colors. These stones may not be as well cut as WF ACA stones, but see if you can get a feel for where you see perceptible color. Is your GF color sensitive??

 

[drkewl]

thanks for the fast replies!

well i''m actually taking her ''diamond shopping'' this weekend to find out how color sensitive she really is... and to get some idea about some settings she may like.

basically, she doesn''t know much about diamonds at all... she doesn''t even know what the 4 C''s are to give you an idea. However, I need to get her a good quality ring for my own conscience. She never asks for anything so I want to put a lot of effort into this.

i''ve told her i''m really tight on money and a 1 carat ring might be too much for me to afford right now (i''m a med student who will be close to 100k in debt after i graduate so thats not far from the truth!

) but i''ve set aside 10k just for this so i can surprise her

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 7/1/2005 12:14:49 PM
Author: drkewl
thanks for the fast replies!

well i''m actually taking her ''diamond shopping'' this weekend to find out how color sensitive she really is... and to get some idea about some settings she may like.

EXCELLENT idea. Compare a few stones of different color against a white background. Women are not going to be staring at their rings or others'' rings in this manner, but it will give you an idea how far you''re willing to go in color.

i''ve told her i''m really tight on money and a 1 carat ring might be too much for me to afford right now (i''m a med student who will be close to 100k in debt after i graduate so thats not far from the truth!

) but i''ve set aside 10k just for this so i can surprise her

That is AWESOME. She''s going to be so surprised and thrilled...good luck in your search!

 

[Kaleigh]

Oh that''s so nice of you. You will get an idea if she is color sensitive or not and what shapes and what size she would like. Be sure to let us know how it goes!!!!

 

[loupe]

Drkewl,

I don''t like to confuse the enthusiasts at Pricescope but there is an issue you are forgetting about color. We color grade diamonds face down and we wear them face up. That doesn''t make sense, does it? We don''t grade sparkle, we grade the body color of the diamond. As some of the writers have said, lighting and your surroundings will reflect differently in every stone. The average human cannot discern yellow until you get into the J-K range of color on the GIA grading scale. If you are shopping for diamonds, don''t wear high contrast clothing, bright colors and for heaven''s sake, don''t shop for diamonds in anything but a neutrally colored room. Grey or white walls are preferred. Some diamonds face up whiter than their grade. In my experience, with few exceptions, the bigger the rock, the whiter it gets! Reflected light on a larger surface tricks the eye into seeing more white than color.

Relax and have fun shopping.




"Gold there is, and rubies in abundance, but lips that speak knowledge are a rare jewel."

 

[MissAva]

I noticed that you said between 1.15 to 1.3, jsut curious but how did you come up with this size? Is there a setting you have in mind allready? I ran a quick search in the Search By Cut with colors from D-H, and clairty from IF-SI1....and a ton of hits came up. I then put them in price order and took a screen shot which I have attached below. Is the 10,000 for the entire ring, or for the stone only?

 

[drkewl]

10,000 for just the stone... and i dunno how i came up with 1.15-1.3... forget about those numbers i guess... instead i am looking for a nice diamond for 10k

 

[Jennifer5973]

From the top view, cut can do amazing things and "hide," as you say, color very well...but remember to view the stone from the side...that''s where color is most evident, especially in larger stones. And if the stone is large enough, in a prong setting, people will be able to see the side view.

 

[Kamuelamom]

Date: 7/1/2005 1:21:43 PM
Author: loupe
Drkewl,

I don''t like to confuse the enthusiasts at Pricescope but there is an issue you are forgetting about color. We color grade diamonds face down and we wear them face up. That doesn''t make sense, does it? We don''t grade sparkle, we grade the body color of the diamond. As some of the writers have said, lighting and your surroundings will reflect differently in every stone. The average human cannot discern yellow until you get into the J-K range of color on the GIA grading scale. If you are shopping for diamonds, don''t wear high contrast clothing, bright colors and for heaven''s sake, don''t shop for diamonds in anything but a neutrally colored room. Grey or white walls are preferred. Some diamonds face up whiter than their grade. In my experience, with few exceptions, the bigger the rock, the whiter it gets! Reflected light on a larger surface tricks the eye into seeing more white than color.

Relax and have fun shopping.

Loupe, just wanted to say welcome to Pricescope! What great tips!

Drkewl, you have embarked on a very important process. The educational value may give you a bigger challenge than med school!

Color is a thing of preference. I''d suggest you learn about the 4 Cs (cut, clarity, color, ct), determine your priorities then you will be able to make an educated decision on your stone. Like you, I had a certain baseline I started out with (HAD to be something with a "V" in it). But the more I learned, I was able to compromise and rearrange the Cs, if you will. Keep in mind, clarity is something you cannot judge with your naked eye, as long as the stone is what we call "eye clean." I ended up with a beautiful G/SI1 stone and for the life of me have not been able to see any inclusions, even with my 10X loupe, much less with my naked eye. Sometimes you get lucky like that.

If you play with some of the Cs, I''m certain you will find a stone that is dazzling and will suit your GF''s needs. When all is said and done, I left the process realizing that cut is king. Good luck & keep us posted.

 

[elepri]

I think it''s great that you''re taking your girlfriend diamond shopping so you can both decide what you''re comfortable with in terms of color. Just remember to compare apples to apples, I''ve seen "F" colored diamonds in the diamond district that looked warm next to my H. But in an ideal cut H next to G you might or might not see the difference (and if you do, it might or might not be enough to bother you). It''s very much a personal prefernce and color sensitivity seems to vary quite a bit.

 

[set2374]

I have done a ton of research and shopping on diamonds and engagement rings in general over the past couple of months. I finally made the purchase today. I also had a 10K budget to work with. How well you do on your purchase wil be related to where you live and how you plan to shop. I wanted to get the maximum value for my money. After having looked at VS1, VS2, SI1 and SI2, I came to the conclusion that inclusions aren''t necessarily a big deal. While overall clarity is important to a diamond''s overall appearance, it''s where the inclusions are located that counts. I found a GIA Cert. round 1.75 C, GSI2 that was absolutely beautiful with a Hearts and Arrows cut, 59.5 D, 60 T, with a thin all around girdle. The only difference between the diamond I purchased and a VS2 is an indented natural on the pavillion that can be seen fairly easily with a 10X loop. However, once you set it, it will be impossible to see and from to everyone''s eye, will appear exactly the same as any VS2. The color, of course, is a G and that does matter. You can really tell the difference between a G color and I, regardless of the cut. I would take a step or two down on the cut and keep the color H and above(preferably G, which is a beautiful color and I don''t think the E and F''s are really worth the premium). As for price, get a hold of a Rappaport Sheet. This will tell you what what the baseline wholesale price is for the diamond (remember, diamonds are an artificially fixed market). Jewlery stores pay anywhere from 30-15% under Rappaport (certain sizes and cuts command a premium. You can subscribe to Rappaport.com and get the updated numbers or, in the alternative, check out http://www.diamondsourceva.com/. They have a price calculator that, althought they can''t legally say it, is entirely based on rappaport. You should shoot to pay 20% under Rap. If you can your diamond for that price, you did very very very well. I paid 8,960 for my diamond, which is exactly 20% under rap. If you walk in off the street and don''t have a clue about the pricing structure, you''re carp in a shark tank. If you are working with a knowledgeable jewler and you whip out your rappaport sheet, you get the "Oh no!!" look on their face. That happened today to me... I walked into a dealer and he asked me, how much do you want to spend on this (which is always a question you ask to a potential sucker who will end up bidding against himself). I did the math on the calculator... and told him 20% under rap to start with, assuming you can make me a deal on the setting. He looked at me with the "Ahhh shit" look. I am sure he still made some money on me, but I got a great deal on the rock. I also worked a deal on a custom platinum setting from, with VS1-G/f pave around it with pave on the basket and prongs for $1000 bucks and it''s a done deal. Total cost $9,960 dollars... 200 deposit and to be paid in cash, no sales tax.


You can do pretty much as well as I did, even if you aren''t in NYC. I spoke to many of the vendors that promote through this sight and some of the had some very fair prices. I did get the best deal going down to 47th Street in NYC (I am lucky to live 40 minutes from the diamond district). However, if you''re outside the NYC, I would recommend you contact U.S.A Certified Diamonds (there is a link to his site on pricescope). They have a link on this site. Give Martin a call and he''ll act as your broker and put you in contact with some very reputable dealers. I met with some of them in person and they were great, but they didn''t have what i was looking for. You will have negotiate with them (this is a big of a game), but in the end if you show them you know your stuff (and know the Rap), you will get the deal you are looking for.

My ring will be ready by July 20th. My soon-to-be fiance is going to have a heartattack when she sees the rock I am getting her. Retail, the diamond should be around 17,000 and the setting, close to 3000.

Good luck with your shopping and I hope this helps.

 

[set2374]

P.S.

Don''t be a schmuck and take her shopping!!! Take her to look at settings so you can get an idea of her taste, but don''t look at rocks with her. Big mistake. She''ll think she can tell the difference between a VS1 and SI1, but she won''t really be able to. The more you educate her, the more you''re going to be locked in. Let the size and color be a surprise. That''s my two cents.

 

[icekid]

drkewl- i don''t have anything else to add, as everyone has beaten me to the good advice. but i just thought i would say hi from another med student

there are a few of us who hang around here!

 

[Dancing Fire]

drkewl
my first advise is don't take set2374' s advise.don't fudge on the cut.the cut is the most important C .as for color/clarity,you'll need to decide for yourself.if you want poorly cut stones then you can go to e-bay and buy it for 25% back of rap. what you paid is what you'll get.you will not be able to buy a nicely cut stone for 20% back of rap in today's market. if you ask any honest vendors he/she will tell you what's the rap price,it's not top secret.

 

[Lynn B]

Just chiming in here with my 2 cents. I have an ideal-cut AGS0 1.53 G/VS2 RB which is gorgeous. I am in the process of upgrading to another ideal-cut, AGS0 2.36 J/SI2 RB. I was a little nervous about the "drops" in color and clarity... but boy, did I fret over nothing! The J color is beautiful... not "yellow" at all. Comparing top-to-top with my G shows VERY little difference to me (as well as my husband and hawk-eyed daughter).

Regarding the SI2 clarity -- the diamond is TOTALLY, COMPLETELY eye-clean... even with the loupe, the inclusions are extremely faint and very hard to see. If your only first-hand experience with SI stones are those poor forlorn mall stones with the black boulders inside them... please think again!

Your first priority should ALWAYS be the "cut". Then at least consider "lower" colors and clarities. They can be a great value, allowing you to get the "most bang for your buck". I am so excited to have found such a killer stone, and at a VERY good price.

Lynn

 

[Jennifer5973]

Date: 7/1/2005 9:33:43 PM
Author: Lynn B

Regarding the SI2 clarity -- the diamond is TOTALLY, COMPLETELY eye-clean... even with the loupe, the inclusions are extremely faint and very hard to see. If your only first-hand experience with SI stones are those poor forlorn mall stones with the black boulders inside them... please think again!

Lynn

So true, Lynn. People hear ''SI" and want to run for the hills but in my experience, 99% of the people (if not 100%) cnnot see differences in clarity in stones unless it is as you describe, some over-graded included mess from a chain store.

Everyone--and I mean everyone--asks me if my SI2 is "flawless"... And I am so tempted to lie...

(I also recently had a salesman at the BMW dealership ask me if it was a "D" because he had just bought his girfriend a 2.9 ct D RB diamond and mine looked "even whiter"...Mine is an H...I suspect his stone is not that well cut)

 

[rodentman]

I have a J EightStar and am totally thrilled with its face up appearance.

 

[set2374]

Date: 7/1/2005 8:40:22 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
drkewl
my first advise is don''t take set2374'' s advise.don''t fudge on the cut.the cut is the most important C .as for color/clarity,you''ll need to decide for yourself.if you want poorly cut stones then you can go to e-bay and buy it for 25% back of rap. what you paid is what you''ll get.you will not be able to buy a nicely cut stone for 20% back of rap in today''s market. if you ask any honest vendors he/she will tell you what''s the rap price,it''s not top secret.

drkew, cut is important. I never said otherwise and drkewl, you''re out of your mind on price. You absolutely can pay 20% under rap, just not at your local jeweler (who is also paying around 20% under rap and needs to make his markup). You don''t know what I bought, so you have no basis to comment. Fortunately, I have the GIA cert and an independent verification to back it up. DrKewl, are you a diamond retailer who wants to protect your bottomline.

 

[set2374]

Date: 7/1/2005 10:00:46 PM
Author: Jennifer5973

Date: 7/1/2005 9:33:43 PM
Author: Lynn B

Regarding the SI2 clarity -- the diamond is TOTALLY, COMPLETELY eye-clean... even with the loupe, the inclusions are extremely faint and very hard to see. If your only first-hand experience with SI stones are those poor forlorn mall stones with the black boulders inside them... please think again!

Lynn

So true, Lynn. People hear ''SI'' and want to run for the hills but in my experience, 99% of the people (if not 100%) cnnot see differences in clarity in stones unless it is as you describe, some over-graded included mess from a chain store.

Everyone--and I mean everyone--asks me if my SI2 is ''flawless''... And I am so tempted to lie...

(I also recently had a salesman at the BMW dealership ask me if it was a ''D'' because he had just bought his girfriend a 2.9 ct D RB diamond and mine looked ''even whiter''...Mine is an H...I suspect his stone is not that well cut)

I agree with both of you. SI''s can be a wonderful alternative and save you thousands. They do require a little more savvy on the buying end. For the most part, SI1''s have inclusions only visible with a loop, SI2''s should be eye-clean as well, but some aren''t. So you have to be careful. I prefer stones with inclusions off to the side, not dead center in the table. If an eye-clean SI2 stone has an ideal or ultra ideal cut (again DrKewl, you should work on your reading comprehension before shooting your mouth off), the stone could scinitillate, be every bit as brilliant and have all the fire you would expect to find in a VS or better.

 

[icemyster]

HI Alll,

Some great discussion going on here. I wanted to add my 2c. Cut does mask color. I saw some earlier posts that mentioned J color stones having a great face up appearance. I would have to say this is very true when you are dealing with a great cut. Yesterday I set a J hearts and arrows in white gold and it looks AWESOME! Even the more color sensative women in the office loved it. Take for example a Solasfera diamond, it is common for me to show I color Solasferas at the counter and have customers swear they are G/H color.

Another poster brought up the important fact that diamonds are graded face down. When you are looking at an ideal or super ideal cut stone face up...what you are going to see is light return.....the more light return the whiter the diamond will "face up".
We see this priciple at the counter repetedly. Once customers look at standards next to ideals, they are, 99.9% of the time, willing to sacrifice anywhere they can to maintain the cut quality of the stone. This is not the case for fancy cuts...as color can be much more readily detcted in a fancy shape.

I would presonally have no problem purchasing an I SI1 ideal/super ideal for my wife, confident that the incredible light return generated by these stone would draw the attention, and not the color of the stone.

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 7/2/2005 8:09:33 AM
Author: set2374
(again DrKewl, you should work on your reading comprehension before shooting your mouth off)

Not to be trite, but maybe you should work on yours before you shoot YOUR mouth off. DrKewl simply asked the original question, he has not replied since.

Secondly, we hear your point of view, but remember it is only your point of view based on your OWN experience. Everyone here has had different experiences and thus this forum is of collective "wisdom." There is no need for the snide remarks, as above. DF (who you should actually be addressing) had a different opinion than yours (based on buying a heck of a lot more than just one ring) and expressed it. That''s it.

Anyway, my point was to clarify that you keep referring to DrKewl and his comments...and in reality he hasn''t HAD any. He merely asked the original question.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/1/2005 12:08:08 PM
Author: FireGoddess
A good cut can help to mask color, and in lower colors some blue fluorescence will also make a diamond appear whiter. But an I is an I is an I... etc (the color grader did not grade the rough, s/he graded the faceted diamond, and assigned it a grade).

What you say is true, but the grader did it looking through the side of the stone, not from the table as it is viewed when in a ring. Cutting can indeed make a stone look from one to three color grades better depending on many factors, including how it is mounted, the lighting it is viewed in and the possible side influence of fluorescence. Also there is a fairly larger variance in an I than in a D for color so it is possible for a stone to be a "high" I and look better than a poorly cut "low" G when viewed from the table.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/1/2005 12:14:49 PM
Author: drkewl
thanks for the fast replies!

well i''m actually taking her ''diamond shopping'' this weekend to find out how color sensitive she really is... and to get some idea about some settings she may like.

basically, she doesn''t know much about diamonds at all... she doesn''t even know what the 4 C''s are to give you an idea. However, I need to get her a good quality ring for my own conscience. She never asks for anything so I want to put a lot of effort into this.

i''ve told her i''m really tight on money and a 1 carat ring might be too much for me to afford right now (i''m a med student who will be close to 100k in debt after i graduate so thats not far from the truth!

) but i''ve set aside 10k just for this so i can surprise her

Then if you concentrate on cut you will be MUCH more likely to have a stone that she will treasure than if you concentrate on color or clarity. Cutting is what makes a stone beautiful. I once brought in a D-IF that was at a price too good to be true. When I saw the stone, I knew instantly why and returned it as it was a lifeless lump of crystallized carbon, not worthy of being worn at any price.

Wink

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 7/2/2005 12:26:22 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 7/1/2005 12:08:08 PM
Author: FireGoddess
A good cut can help to mask color, and in lower colors some blue fluorescence will also make a diamond appear whiter. But an I is an I is an I... etc (the color grader did not grade the rough, s/he graded the faceted diamond, and assigned it a grade).

What you say is true, but the grader did it looking through the side of the stone, not from the table as it is viewed when in a ring. Cutting can indeed make a stone look from one to three color grades better depending on many factors, including how it is mounted, the lighting it is viewed in and the possible side influence of fluorescence. Also there is a fairly larger variance in an I than in a D for color so it is possible for a stone to be a 'high' I and look better than a poorly cut 'low' G when viewed from the table.

Wink

I understand this and actually initially put in an entire paragraph about color grading being from the side...and then took it out because it got complicated and the main point I wanted to make was that cut CAN affect the color, but we're not all color sensitive. The best lesson is to just go out there and see what visually appeals to you. If he sees a "so so" cut I color stone and says ok, I can detect color here, then he at least knows what range he can deal with better than just seeing examples on a computer screen. Even a mounting can "seem" to make a stone appear whiter...there's a lot of factors that go into consideration, and when just starting out, I think seeing stones in person, even if not ideally cut, can give you some idea of your tolerance. That's all.

 

[WinkHPD]

I agree with you completely here! Seeing stones is the FUN part of buying a diamond!

Wink

 

[FireGoddess]

Yup....so much fun that I do it even when I''m NOT really looking for another one...

!! LOL.

 

[Mara]

I''m a little late here, but as a previous owner of a G VS and then an H SI and now a J SI...I really have to say tons of it depends on your sensitivity to color. My G was super white. No color from the side even. The H was the same way really. The J I can see a very tiny bit of off-white through the side but it''s not like it''s a yellow color. I don''t have a lot of color sensitivity, some people say they can see the differences between E and G. I am not one of those people. My husband has a small E VS in his ring, the other night we compared our diamonds in candlelight at a restaurant, and he said he didn''t see a whit of difference in color. That is what I would call ''regular wear''...sure if you put a J diamond face down on a white paper with no setting next to a D, you will see some color change, but in regular wear? I can almost bet with a super ideal round there won''t be much for most people to complain about.

I would highly recommend an H for color if you want to drop that G a bit but aren''t sure about I or J. For me my H was still super white, maybe too white for me...I''m a bit more olive skinned and maybe that is why this J is more my thing.

In terms of clarity, I also highly recommend an eye-clean SI...I have an SI2 in the 1.60c range and it''s 99.9% eye-clean, the only thing you can see and this is if you put your eye up close to the stone, is a very very tiny small black carbon dot, which just looks like a tiny speck of dirt. Having previously had the VS where I saw nothing and then an SI1 where the vendor said it should have been a VS, I have not ever been able to pick out an inclusion with my eye before. I was SO EXCITED when I found this one, it bothered me for all of a second and now it''s kind of a cool ''marker''...and no one has ever seen it but me. The sparkle of the stone and it''s amazing cut really can mask little things like that in regular wear.

Anyway...your budget is very healthy, and I really like that 1.54 H SI2 that PG posted...or something along those lines would be just lovely. Just ensure the cut is top notch and that the clarity is confirmed eye-clean by the vendor FROM ALL ANGLES, not just top down....because if you can see something from the side then it may bother you...this is how many people end up rejecting SI''s...if it''s not confirmed eye-clean all the way around and then they see something from the side. This is something I make sure to ask my vendor, and make sure they have good eyes that you feel you can trust. Also get lots of images, of the diamond, scope images, etc etc to be able to virtually feel it before you buy it.

Good luck!!!!

 

[Dancing Fire]

SET2374,
i think you should be talking to me. first of all, it's bad advice to tell somebody to fudge on the cut. you will not see color or clarity from across the room, but if your stone is a nice cut, you can see sparkles from across the room. i have nothing against G/H color or SI stones. the reason people are getting a discount like 20% back of rap is because of cut quality. there are plenty of these kinds of stones selling on ebay. i know cut is very important because, i had a stone recut for better preformance.

below is a link to a poster (Mr.GG) who claims he can sell nice ideal cuts for 20% back of rap. at teh end he admits he can't.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-selection-so-how-did-i-do.30046/page-3