how much yellow can cut hide?

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/4/2005 3:24:16 PM
Author: rickyrockranger
That hasn''t been my experience with GIA/AGS Si1''s. Are we talking table down eye clean, or through the pavillion?

Maybe I need better glasses!

Excellent question! As a vendor when I talk about eye clean I always mean through the table eye clean as often even VS inclusions can be seen from the pavilion, I regard the eye clean through the pavilion test to be patently unfair to the grading system as it was devised, but of course will always be happy to say what I can or can not see when asked. Once the stone is mounted it will be viewed table up, and that is how the diamond is graded for clarity, unlike color where it is graded through the side of the stone so that maximum color can be observed.

However, within the context of the conversation, using typical jeweler''s definition, when viewed from the table it will sometimes be possible to see SI! and SI2 inclusions. This will be rarely, thankfully, and will also depend on the visual accuity of the viewer. I have a client who can see VS2''s almost always. These are tiny inclusions that I can not see, but he can point them out to me from accross the desk. I can see things that many can not, so I am impressed with his ability.

Once while attending a continuing education seminar being put on by GIA just prior to the Tucson Gem show I was given a three carat stone with a clearly eye visible inclusion graded by GIA that was graded as a VS1. I was not alone among the participants who were sure that this was at best an SI1 stone, even the instructor was amazed at the grade when asked privatley at lunch. Granted, it was small, black, and the only inclusion in the entire stone, but it was too prominently visible for my tastes to ever be called a VS1, but there it was from the "masters" themselves. This is why I recommend always to look at the stone, not just the paper, no matter who''s paper.

Please do not misunderstand me though, those stones are indeed rare and normally your statement will be correct. The public however depends on us vendors to be at least slightly anal about these things so I wanted to throw my opinion into the ring. What you said is generally true, just not always...

Wink

 

[LuvsPricescope]

i have a 2.51 carat J colored stone that faces up absolutely white...i imagine beacuse of it''s wondeful cut. when my FI and i brought it to the appraiser, before we showed him the GIA cert he pegged it as an I. in comparing it to other stones it''s visuall on par to my eyes with G''s and H''s. hth.

 

[LadyluvsLuxury]

I always find it interesting when people suggest comparing different stones to determine ones color comfort level. My first cheapo engagement ring (no certification) had a little marquise stone in the center which looked pretty darn white to me for quite some time until I went into a jewelry store and saw a G marquise next to mine. It was at that point that I noticed my stone had a different hue to it than the G. And I do think hue is a better term than color because when one mentions color especially pertaining to a ''J'' most consumers imagine pee yellow as typically seen in poorly cut mall store stones. However, I think really the difference between an D and a G, H, I for instance is more alone the lines of white vs. ivory. With the near colorless grades having more warmth as a opposed to actual yellow color. But I digress...after viewing the ''G'' colored stone it prompted me to get an indepedent appraisal on my marquise and the appraisor graded my stone as a ''J''. Now prior to doing some more research into the four C''s and learning about how each ''C'' can influence the next I would have never guessed that my stone was a ''J'' because it did not appear yellow to me. But of course once next to a more coloreless stone the difference would become apparent. Does this means I then became unhappy with my stone? Definitely not. So I guess the whole point of this is how useful is it really to advise someone to ''compare'' color against one another knowing that when one does so the difference would be more obvious than if for instance in DrKewl''s case let''s say he never took his girlfriend to compare the different color stones and he purchased an ideal cut round ''J'', would she at that point detect any color in the stone? And my question is sincere from personal experience as opposed to being a means of undermining anyone''s advice. I think there is a difference in suggesting someone view a particular color in person rather than comparing it with other colors.

 

[moremoremore]

WOW! Long thread. I will have to give it a full read tomorrow! And I def agree that cut can help to hide color. How much...I question. A well cut J or K will not look like a well cut G or H. That''s why they are graded J or K. And under most lighting conditions, you can see a difference. it''s not yellow, but not as crisp imo. Not that there''s anything wrong with that.

 

[Mara]

Ladys...the reason I suggest that people compare diamonds in person in a store or similar is to have them figure out what their color sensitivities are. Not everyone will see the nuances from one diamond to the next even in a special viewing circumstance. For example, if I am in a store and I compare something like an F to an H...I can''t see a difference! If I can see a difference in something like an H to a J..it shows me just how much of a difference there is, or is not, and also where the differences occur, aka from side pavilion viewing or face up.

In your circumstance you already had a stone which you thought was a G, but after finding it was a J..it was already a done deal, so why compare? Sure..I can understand that. But if you are buying something and want to do the research beforehand....it makes sense to me to compare colors side by side to see just where your ''comfort'' level lies.

I don''t have color sensitivity, I wore badly cut N earrings on my ears for 2 years!! They looked fine to me. But compare them to my original G stone and I thought, wow why do these look yellow. We never would have known that they were N''s, they were sold to us as H''s. It prompted us to take them back and get new G''s for the same price as the H''s.

In any case...I wholeheartedly believe in pre-research for something as big as a diamond purchase. It''s important for people to know where their color sensitivity or lack thereof lies and what they feel most comfortable with purchasing. If it''s an after the fact question then it may be a moot point.

My two cents!

 

[set2374]

Date: 7/3/2005 12:54:25 AM
Author: sxn675
Yeah, but that doesn''t mean that he said to forget about the cut or that cut wasn''t important. After all, that could be an almost hearts and arrows (like with a misshapen heart) or something or one of the ''Expert Selection'' diamonds from Whiteflash. I consider those a step or two below what we all wind up with here, but still very beautiful diamonds.

Edited to add: I guess it depends on how we define things. Isn''t it funny how the Pricescope world is so different from the rest of the world? I viewed his advice as a step or two below a super-duper extra ideal cut, but a ''normal'' person might think that his advice was to go with a non-ideal cut or even to go with some frozen spit. I never tell people details about my ring or too much about what I know in the real world because I don''t want them to think I am nuts (unless I think that I''ve found a fellow obsessive person

You''re dead on right. Of the 4C''s, cut is probably the most important, however, that doesn''t mean you need to go with a Lazare or Hearts on Fire to have a gorgeous diamond. I don''t necessarily subscribe to the school that says you need to have an Ultra-ideal, or ideal, particularly when you''re on a budget. DrKewl set his budget at 10,000 (I believe for the diamond only). Within this budget, there is no reason you can''t find a beautiful, eyeclean, 1.5-1..75, SI1 or SI2, H to G color, with premium cut or above. DrKewl had been asking whether a good cut could give an I the appearance of a G (or something like that). My advice (aside from the pricing issues), is to go for a well balanced diamond as opposed to one that excels in one area as opposed to getting the best in one area and not so great in another. An I is an I is an I. An Ultra Ideal ISI1, may look better than an Premium GSI1, but I don''t believe that it will appear "whiter", just look nicer. The point is, cut does not really mask color, it simply has more fire, brilliance and scintillation (which, in my opinion is more important). With 10,000k budget though, I would probably look at stones in the G and H range. I can see the difference between a D-E and an H, but when I put an F or G between the H and E and mix them up, it''s damn hard to tell the E from the G. If it''s that difficult to tell on a side by side test, I don''t think it''s that important in the real world. Once you go down to I though, it starts to become somewhat more noticeable. I personally would have seriously considered I''s, but DrKewl is more concerned with quality over size. G to H would be an excellent compromise. I also think going in the SI1 range instead of a VS, is also a great way for him to balance his interest between size and quality. Although cut is the most important C, it''s also the hardest to determine. I personally prefer the appearance of stones with larger tables (58-61), instead of the 55''s found in most H&A diamonds. I am sure there are quite a few PS''ers that would disagree with me.

The bottomline for us guys who are looking to "wow" their soon-to-be fiancees is that they are going to want a nice overall diamond that is going to look mighty impressive on their fingers. I went to look at diamonds with my GF, without specifying what size i was interested in purchasing and without really getting into the details of what grades I was going to look for. I just wanted to see what she was attracted to. She is color sensitive and could see the difference between an I and H, but thought the I was also very pretty. she LOVED the sparkles of a premium to ideal cut, but didn''t see much difference when going to the H&A cut table up (she thought the pattern in the idealscope on the H&A was really cool though).

I did make the point of only showing her 1 carat stones and settings (I bought her a 1.75) to learn her tastes, even though I was planning on getting her a much larger stone. After looking at lots of 1 carats, that 1.75 is going to look like a monster to her.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 7/5/2005 10:58:31 AM
Author: set2374

Date: 7/3/2005 12:54:25 AM
Author: sxn675

The point is, cut does not really mask color, it simply has more fire, brilliance and scintillation (which, in my opinion is more important).

Do you not realize that you just made the point that a great cut will mask color? It is precisely in these ways and in light return that a well cut stone DOES mask the color better.

But then, your words come from someone who has bought one diamond and thinks they understand the nuances of "rap" - a tool for the TRADE. A trade that uses "rap" to their favor on consumers, fondly known as the "rap trap".

 

[sxn675]

Uh, just to clarify, F&I is quoting set, not me

.

 

[audy]

Date: 7/3/2005 11:12:38 PM
Author: carrot
Other than the fancy color grades, all diamonds which are not color grade D have some degree of internal color. Typically, this color is yellow or brown, and to varying degrees, this internal color detracts from the value and the transparency of the stone. The color of the diamond is the color of the diamond and neither the cut nor the shape changes that. Don''t deceive yourself into thinking that cut will make a diamond look like a higher color grade if it was graded accurately in the first place. If you buy a J, you are going to live with a J, and there is a difference even between an I and a J, much less a D and a J.

When diamonds are graded, they are examined with the table down and in a white tray. That presents the best view of the color in a stone and is used to make the grading as accurate as possible. But don''t kid yourself into thinking that that yellow or brown tinge disappears when the diamond is face up, or when it is mounted. It doesn''t. Color grade differences can be seen in mounted diamonds when viewed face up!

The diamond buying public agrees that the more colorless a stone is, the more desireable it is. That is the reason that prices steadily increase as the color grade increases. There is a lot of conversation about a J looking ''white'' or an I looking ''white''. The reality is that these diamonds are NOT white and they are not colorless!

Perhaps you can''t see the difference between color grades. Perhaps color is not important to you. Maybe size is more important to you than color. If it is, you have a lot of comapany. Should you choose to buy a J color grade so that your budget will buy a bigger diamond, that is your decision, as it is any buyer''s. Just be honest with yourself about the trade off you are making.

Totally agree.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 7/5/2005 11:16:13 AM
Author: sxn675
Uh, just to clarify, F&I is quoting set, not me

.

Yes, and to further clarify - I''ve yet to get the hang of this new quoting format.

 

[sxn675]

LOL

 

[sapphic]

What is the frequency in which people view their rocks from the side-view vs top down? When your friends look at the rock, how often do people examine it closely vs just leaning over and seeing how shiney it is? My concern in a J color stone might be if she puts it up to a girlfriend''s rock to compare and see a large difference.

 

[Mara]

when people have grabbed my hand or i show my ring, even if they turn it left/right etc...I don't think the slight 'tinge' is visible enough unless you really get close to the stone. all anyone has ever said is how beautiful my ring and stone is and everyone notices how much the stone sparkles and what life it has....my lastest stone is a J SI2 and my girlfriend says she wants one just like it when she gets engaged. i told her i'd sell her bf mine when i upgrade next.

 

[Kamuelamom]

Date: 7/7/2005 2:07:07 AM
Author: sapphic
What is the frequency in which people view their rocks from the side-view vs top down? When your friends look at the rock, how often do people examine it closely vs just leaning over and seeing how shiney it is? My concern in a J color stone might be if she puts it up to a girlfriend's rock to compare and see a large difference.

I do not think that the average person would compare stones *that* closely. Only the most discerning folks like those from this site to really want to compare that closely. But most folks here are not "average" diamond lovers. I think that average people would just enjoy seeing the sparkles and the magnetic beauty of a well cut stone.

My stone is ideal cut and very sparkly, like most of the stones here, and while I have received many, many compliments on it, no one has really come up to me and said like "oooooooh, is that a G color stone? or what color is that??" They just like the fire and sparkles it gives off.

 

[oldminer]

Well cut, high performing diamonds best mask their body color. Stones that perform on a lower level are unable to mask their body color as well. This statement applies best to the typical diamonds that run from D to M color.

From M/N and lower, performance does not mask color, so much as it adds interest to the mix. One gets more perceived fire as there is just more coloration overall to the light return. Fire confuses the perception of body color, but it does not hide it like in the whiter stones.

People suffer from their desire to change things. Changing jobs or where you live gives you an opportunity to see if the grass is really greener elsewhere. Usually it isn't. Light skinned folks want to have that healthy tan. They spray it on, sit out in the sun, or go to tanning salons. People with dark skin may want to lighten it up with bleach and chemicals. Curly haired folks spend hours straightening their hair while straight hair people get it all frizzed out.

Pick a diamond you like, not because of a letter of the alphabet, but simply becuase it looks great to you. Shop a bit. Make sure the price is fair for what YOU love, and then don't worry over it. Enjoy the looking, the shopping, the pricing and the haggling. Then, don't worry. It will never be better than anyone else's stone. Even if it is D-IF, someone will have a larger one or a "better" one in some respect. If you have a Mercedes, there is little reason to lust for a BMW unless you still want to be certain the grass is not greener elsewhere. It truly isn't. Of course, I won't deny that it is fun to just make sure for yourself. I have done it over and over.

Diamonds from D to I color, especially in the round shape, pretty much look the same color to most eyes. Certainly, in normal room lighting at reasonable distances, there is no visible difference of COLOR. Sparkle, Brilliancy, Intensity do look different, but not the color from D to I in a regular room.

 

[carrot]

Perhaps to our misfortune, both my wife and I seem to have no trouble distinguishing between color grades. Just recently, we were looking at well cut, mounted RB stones in a jewelry store when, without saying anything, the jeweler pulled out two rings with stones, each around a carat in size. Both of us could immediately see the difference in color between the diamonds. When we inquired, we learned that one was an F and the other was an H. Both diamonds were mounted and viewed face up.

Further, we both can see the breathtaking beauty of a D "color" diamond. They have a transparency and clarity (if I may use that word apart from its usual application to inclusions) that literally sets them apart from all other grades. While we claim no special visual acuity or color differentiation skills, we have no trouble seeing the differences between diamonds of different color grades and (to us) the amazing purity of a D color stone is what diamonds are all about. Or perhaps to say it another way, a colorless stone is an extremely valuable foundation on which an excellent cut should be built. It is no mystery to us why D color grade diamonds are so expensive - they are definitely worth it. Market realities confirm that others agree.

I find color even more important than clarity. Inclusions (no, I''m not talking about a big, black spot) are usually quite small and affect only a fraction of a diamond while color affects the entire stone. But it is not necessary to compromise on either quality.

Many people buy diamonds without ever seeing a D color stone first. Although they are satisfied with their diamond and probably think it is beautiful, one might say that ignorance is bliss. Just like the multitudes who buy a daimond without ever seeing a well cut stone, they literally don''t know what they are missing!

Perhaps we would be better off if we were blind to the color differences. That would certainly provide for potential cost savings. But we aren''t and I''m glad of it. And we are more than willing to choose a smaller stone in order to enjoy what we can see. And after all, diamonds keep their color - or lack of it - for a long time!

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 7/7/2005 11:18:15 AM
Author: Many people buy diamonds without ever seeing a D color stone first. Although they are satisfied with their diamond and probably think it is beautiful, one might say that ignorance is bliss. Just like the multitudes who buy a daimond without ever seeing a well cut stone, they literally don''t know what they are missing!

This is just plain arrogant. I know exactly what I am missing. I''m missing the blinding white that gives me a headache. It''s not aesthecially pleasing. I''ll say it again - most people aren''t ignorant in their choice. IT''S *THEIR* CHOICE to balance *THEIR* parameters of importance. Color not being the end all of be all.

 

[MissAva]

Having seen a D color HOF next to an H HOF (both happened to be VVS2) and really had to stare at them to tell any difference what so ever. Even then I didnt think the H diamond was warm looking and I think it had just as much of the translucence as the D did. JMO.

 

[carrot]

SuperAdBlocker_DIV_FirstLook="0" SuperAdBlocker_OnMove_Hooked="0" SuperAdBlocker_OnMouseEnter_Hooked="0">Date: 7/7/2005 11:28:46 AM
Author: fire&ice

SuperAdBlocker_DIV_FirstLook="0" SuperAdBlocker_OnMove_Hooked="0" SuperAdBlocker_OnMouseEnter_Hooked="0">Date: 7/7/2005 11:18:15 AM
Author: Many people buy diamonds without ever seeing a D color stone first. Although they are satisfied with their diamond and probably think it is beautiful, one might say that ignorance is bliss. Just like the multitudes who buy a daimond without ever seeing a well cut stone, they literally don''t know what they are missing!

This is just plain arrogant. I know exactly what I am missing. I''m missing the blinding white that gives me a headache. It''s not aesthecially pleasing. I''ll say it again - most people aren''t ignorant in their choice. IT''S *THEIR* CHOICE to balance *THEIR* parameters of importance. Color not being the end all of be all.

I believe that if you read my post a little more carefully, you will note that I made reference to buyers who purchase a diamond without ever seeing a D color stone first, not those who have made themselves familiar with the differences between color grades before buying.

I would encourage anyone to make an educated decision and buy what they want. I would not encourage anyone to pay for something that they can''t see or don''t appreciate.

 

[belle]

Date: 7/7/2005 11:18:15 AM
Author: carrot
Just recently, we were looking at well cut, mounted RB stones in a jewelry store when, without saying anything, the jeweler pulled out two rings with stones, each around a carat in size. Both of us could immediately see the difference in color between the diamonds. When we inquired, we learned that one was an F and the other was an H. Both diamonds were mounted and viewed face up.

carrot,
i have had a hard time understanding where you are coming from with your previous ''cut can''t hide color'' comments, but the above statement is making things a little more clear for me.
the problem stems from the fact that these ''well cut'' jewelry store stones are not so well cut. especially in mounted goods. the fact is jewelry stores, even ''high end'' ones, mount their most pedestrian cuts in these rings. if you''re lucky, you may find a store that carries ideal cut (not 60/60 ''ideal'' proportioned) stones for which you can compare color grades. in doing this, you would see the difference cut makes in masking color. like you, i consider myself color sensitive. as it is, i can always tell an ''f'' from an ''h'' in these jewelry store stones. i cannot, however, tell an ''f'' from an ''h'' *face up* in an ideal cut.

 

[drkewl]

Wow after rereading every post, this is truly an extremely informative thread! And to think little ol me started it with a simple question (a question that i now realize is not too accurate.... better to say how much COLOR can cut hide)

Anyways, here is what I have learned... cut is definitely king (enough diamond lovers here agree on that so thats good enough for me)

I will look for an H/I colored diamond (I have seen people who love their J/Ks here but seeing that my gf could pick out the slight yellow tinge on some of the diamonds in Jareds, i think going below an ''I'' might be dangerous for me lol)

As for clarity... I have renewed faith now with the SI1 category esp after seeing the diamond myself to see how ''eye clean'' it is exactly. If I order from someone like WF, I am sure Brian can give me his professional and honest opinion on the visibility of the inclusions

As for carat weight, given these parameters and a diamond only budget of about 10K, i think i can look for something above 1.5 carats!

And now the search begins... thank u all for you wonderful and insightful comments!

 

[WinkHPD]

It is a great thing about asking a question here, you will always get a lot of answers. Good luck in your search you now have MUCH better information both from here and from your visit to Jarad''s with your fiance with which to make a good decision.

Wink

 

[belle]

sorry to continue hijacking your post drkewl

but i have a question for matatora here

Date: 7/7/2005 11:31:35 AM
Author: Matatora
Having seen a D color HOF next to an H HOF (both happened to be VVS2) and really had to stare at them to tell any difference what so ever. Even then I didnt think the H diamond was warm looking and I think it had just as much of the translucence as the D did. JMO.

matatora, when you viewed hof, did you notice a difference in the cut quality? or were you even able to compare them to other non-ideal cuts?
also, did you see the arrows as dark?

 

[belle]

Date: 7/7/2005 12:19:40 PM
Author: drkewl
Wow after rereading every post, this is truly an extremely informative thread! And to think little ol me started it with a simple question (a question that i now realize is not too accurate.... better to say how much COLOR can cut hide)

Anyways, here is what I have learned... cut is definitely king (enough diamond lovers here agree on that so thats good enough for me)

I will look for an H/I colored diamond (I have seen people who love their J/Ks here but seeing that my gf could pick out the slight yellow tinge on some of the diamonds in Jareds, i think going below an ''I'' might be dangerous for me lol)

As for clarity... I have renewed faith now with the SI1 category esp after seeing the diamond myself to see how ''eye clean'' it is exactly. If I order from someone like WF, I am sure Brian can give me his professional and honest opinion on the visibility of the inclusions

As for carat weight, given these parameters and a diamond only budget of about 10K, i think i can look for something above 1.5 carats!

And now the search begins... thank u all for you wonderful and insightful comments!

best of luck drkewl! you are on the right track here and i have no doubt you are going to find a beautiful diamond.

 

[sxn675]

Good luck DrKewl! Your girlfriend is going to love her diamond. It could even put the attending''s wives'' stones to shame

 

[MissAva]

Date: 7/7/2005 2:32:11 PM
Author: belle
sorry to continue hijacking your post drkewl

but i have a question for matatora here

Date: 7/7/2005 11:31:35 AM
Author: Matatora
Having seen a D color HOF next to an H HOF (both happened to be VVS2) and really had to stare at them to tell any difference what so ever. Even then I didnt think the H diamond was warm looking and I think it had just as much of the translucence as the D did. JMO.

matatora, when you viewed hof, did you notice a difference in the cut quality? or were you even able to compare them to other non-ideal cuts?
also, did you see the arrows as dark?

Personally in the stone that are poorly cut, Zales, Kays you can see the color through the case. Not for me. The cut quality looked identical to me...though my first thought was that one was bigger (h turned out the 1.8 something and the D was about 1.2). They showed me a few non-ideals but the store doesnt carry many and had to get them from the back since they are used primarly for comparison purposes. I was there to pick up a Breitling so my focus, and excitment centered on that. I really did see color per say just that something was different, my BFF laughed becuase she thought I was nuts. I dont remember seeing arrows, but this was pre-PS days and I would not have looked for them. It was this trip that made me realize I had a lot to learn...(Also I know I am highly color sensitive when I took the physichal for my private ticket I joked around with a nurse and she was impressed my all the variations that I could see.)

 

[Lynn B]

Carrot,

Believe me, I''m TRYING to read your post "carefully" and give you the benefit of the doubt -- but I''m with F&I.

You clearly state in your post that any [poor, sad, pitiable?] owner of a non-D color diamond "probably thinks it is beautiful". PROBABLY THINKS???!

Oh good grief. Are you trying really hard to be so obnoxiuos or does it just come naturally??!

Lynn

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 7/3/2005 11:12:38 PM
Author: carrot
Don''t deceive yourself into thinking that cut will make a diamond look like a higher color grade if it was graded accurately in the first place.

But don''t kid yourself into thinking that that yellow or brown tinge disappears when the diamond is face up, or when it is mounted. It doesn''t.

The diamond buying public agrees that the more colorless a stone is, the more desireable it is. !

Perhaps you can''t see the difference between color grades. Perhaps color is not important to you. Maybe size is more important to you than color. If it is, you have a lot of comapany. Should you choose to buy a J color grade so that your budget will buy a bigger diamond, that is your decision, as it is any buyer''s. Just be honest with yourself about the trade off you are making.

Or these above pearls of "wisdom" Lynn B.

Seems we aren''t deceiving & just being honest with ourselves about our reading comprehension skills. But, then we are two people who understood all of our parameters, viewed D color stones & decided against it.

Honestly, if a D is what people want - go for it. The premium is not worth it to me & it''s a detriment. Just don''t insinuate that I haven''t been honest in my thought process.

 

[MissAva]

Date: 7/7/2005 5:32:58 PM
Author: Lynn B
Carrot,

Believe me, I''m TRYING to read your post ''carefully'' and give you the benefit of the doubt -- but I''m with F&I.

You clearly state in your post that any [poor, sad, pitiable?] owner of a non-D color diamond ''probably thinks it is beautiful''. PROBABLY THINKS???!

Oh good grief. Are you trying really hard to be so obnoxiuos or does it just come naturally??!

Lynn

I was wondering when someone would say it.

 

[icekid]

Date: 7/7/2005 8:56:38 PM
Author: Matatora

Date: 7/7/2005 5:32:58 PM
Author: Lynn B
Carrot,

Believe me, I''m TRYING to read your post ''carefully'' and give you the benefit of the doubt -- but I''m with F&I.

You clearly state in your post that any [poor, sad, pitiable?] owner of a non-D color diamond ''probably thinks it is beautiful''. PROBABLY THINKS???!

Oh good grief. Are you trying really hard to be so obnoxiuos or does it just come naturally??!

Lynn

I was wondering when someone would say it.

haha, I considered replying. But then I came to my senses and realized that talking to a brick wall is pointless