Letter from a concerned and turned off PS member - now a Permanently turned off PSer

[Demelza]

Date: 11/9/2008 5:21:52 PM
Author: EBree

Date: 11/9/2008 5:16:15 PM

Author: Demelza


I completely agree with you, DS, that all viewpoints should be respected. You have every right to eat meat or believe that abortion is immoral or whatever else your conscience tells you is just and right. That said, I don't think it's just or right for your (not directing this at you specifically, of course) morals to dictate public policy. I actually think Diamondfan's meat analogy is rather apt here -- I am a vegetarian because of the ethical and environmental implications of killing animals for food. Would I vote into law a bill that outlawed eating meat for everyone? No, I would not because I don't think everyone needs to abide by my moral code. If you (again, not you specifically) believe abortion is murder, don't get one; if you believe gay marriage is wrong (for whatever reason), don't marry someone of the same sex; but don't limit my options because of your beliefs. That, to me, is one of the primary differences between liberal and conservative ideology and that is why I'm a liberal. I hope I've stated all this in a respectful way. I'm not meaning to challenge you specifically, DS, I'm just wanting to add my 2 cents on this issue and your post offered the opportunity to do so. I really do appreciate that you're always respectful here.

Very well (and respectfully) said, Demelza. I completely agree.

Thanks, Ebree. I always enjoy reading your posts so I'm glad what I said resonates with you.

 

[E B]

Date: 11/9/2008 5:31:17 PM
Author: Demelza

Thanks, Ebree. I always enjoy reading your posts so I''m glad what I said resonates with you.

Thank you! I always enjoy reading your posts as well.

 

[icekid]

Date: 11/9/2008 4:48:00 PM
Author: EBree
LOL. This discussion has melted into a giant ball of ridiculousness: liberals accusing conservatives of being offensive and conservatives accusing liberals of being intolerant. Bottom line? Most of us are guilty of exactly what we're accusing others of, myself included.

With the discussion of politics brings heat, and if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Try to be respectful of others' views, and at the same time, if you bring a 'controversial' view to the circle, be prepared for the responses you'll get. Check all offensive language and the personal attacks at the door. And for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, let's take all of this built-up energy to a topic about ANYTHING political. Another 'was Obama actually born on Mars?' thread is preferable to the bickering in this one.

No offense to EBree (as you are FAR from the only person), but I'm glad SOMEONE can admit to some wrong-doing here. I've been reading these threads with quite a bit of interest, because, like many I was quite undecided. Ultimately I remained undecided and did not feel I could vote for either party for president this election year. Because of this, I feel that i do have a bit of impartiality here.

Neither side is guiltless, believe me. I'd dare say the vast majority of the active posters in ATW are guilty of attacks and intolerance toward the opposite viewpoint.

I posted that I have worked incredibly hard in my life and felt that I should not be forced to donate additional money into our "redistribution of wealth" scheme. Others have said similar things. What is the response from some "liberals?" Eye-rolls ad nauseum, snark snark, "I work so hard I deserve my money wah wah wah" eye-roll eye-roll, snark snark. That is not debating by any definition. That is attacking someone's beliefs/ideals. It occurred daily. And I could certainly say the same about some of the conservatives in response to the democrats. Neither side is guiltless! Let me say that again, NEITHER SIDE.

I'm sure this thread will be gone shortly, but I had to get that out.

And can I say again and again- I agree with DiamondFan! If everyone was as polite and thoughtful as she throughout this mess, this thread would not exist. I feel ATW has become quite divisive in the PS community and that is very unfortunate. I was hoping this would all go away with the election season, but politics create strong feelings and I do worry that this could continue to create derision.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 11/9/2008 5:16:15 PM
Author: Demelza

Date: 11/9/2008 4:04:37 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006



DF, we do live in a democracy and have a right to vote our own consciences, thank goodness. We have the right to differ on what we believe is best for our community, state, and country based on those beliefs. And then we vote. I respect the beliefs of others. If for example, your conscience does not allow you to eat meat, then I totally respect that. But please do not put me down for eating it. Or, if I believe that human life is precious and should not be destroyed, please respect that and I will respect your right to the opinion that it is okay to abort unborn babies, or whatever the issue. I don't hate those with opposing views on controversial topics. But I do resent the fact that my opinions may not be given respect because they don't agree with everyone else.

I completely agree with you, DS, that all viewpoints should be respected. You have every right to eat meat or believe that abortion is immoral or whatever else your conscience tells you is just and right. That said, I don't think it's just or right for your (not directing this at you specifically, of course) morals to dictate public policy. I actually think Diamondfan's meat analogy is rather apt here -- I am a vegetarian because of the ethical and environmental implications of killing animals for food. Would I vote into law a bill that outlawed eating meat for everyone? No, I would not because I don't think everyone needs to abide by my moral code. If you (again, not you specifically) believe abortion is murder, don't get one; if you believe gay marriage is wrong (for whatever reason), don't marry someone of the same sex; but don't limit my options because of your beliefs. That, to me, is one of the primary differences between liberal and conservative ideology and that is why I'm a liberal. I hope I've stated all this in a respectful way. I'm not meaning to challenge you specifically, DS, I'm just wanting to add my 2 cents on this issue and your post offered the opportunity to do so. I really do appreciate that you're always respectful here.

Thank you so very much, Dem! This is the kind of interchange that I enjoy. I believe that people in a democracy have the right to vote their consciences. We have to have laws for our good. Do I agree with all laws passed? Of course not. I certainly will use my freedom to do the things that are legal to do as well as to avoid things that my conscience does not allow. Even our president-elect believes that some issues should be determined by the states. We all have certain moral values and will vote based on those values. There will always be lines to be drawn (ex: should adults and children be free to have sex legally? Should it be legal for people and animals to have sex? Should drugs be legalized?). See, we may not draw the lines in the same places, but there'll almost always be a line for everyone. But that is why our system is great. We can vote on the issue or elect representatives to vote on the issues and we can have our opinions count in that way. I really do have liberal friends and we have mutual respect for each other's views even when we do not agree. I would fight for your right to express your opinion and to vote according to your conscience! (Incidentally, I am registered unaffiliated. I am not a member of any political party.)

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 11/9/2008 12:39:17 PM
Author: iluvcarats
My opinion of ATW is that it can exist. I just don't have to participate in it. The problem with it for me , is that it takes the pleasure out of PS simply because I find that it will taint my view of some of the members, who I like and enjoy in all the other forums. I understand that this is my own form of bigotry.(continues)

Sorry, carats, I could only quote the first point of your excellent entry.
Call me difficult, but I think if AtW got 'cancelled', I would be around here a lot less!

The lack of genuine discussion is the one reason why I left my previous 'favourite' forum, the mods were so worried about offending anyone that any decent discussion was canned almost as soon as it hit the rails.

Like PS, it was a consumer forum focused on women's goods (call me shallow...), and, frankly, I found the mods childish attitude towards thoughts and politics as reflecting very badly on the whole forum. It made us girls look dumb!It was embarrassing!

Admittedly, debate about political topics (and ultimately, I believe all topics are political) can sometimes be pretty low level. That's because as people we can be pretty ill-informed or have limited real-life experience of a topic. Often, what we think we know is simply the regurgitated opinions of our teachers.

How on earth can people develop deep knowledge, and complicated responses, without discussion?

It is an individual's responsibility to maintain civility - even if, at the time, they react to a post that seems to be dissing them to their very core. Religious topics can be at issue here, as can discussions about race relations.

I was once badly flamed as being a racist redneck, when my own brother is married to an Aboriginal woman, with Aboriginal kids! That poor poster got all worked up, about what is probably a 'hot-button' topic for her (all the 'racists' in the world) and she was so keen for me to prove her point, that she couldn't even see my truth.

Internet communications are limited, because you don't 'get' the whole package, but it is also a fantastic way for really getting to the heart of topics quite easily.

Do you sit down with your neighbour and have an in-depth discussion about miscarriage vs abortion, and the implications of each thereof? No? Neither do I.

 

[bee*]

Date: 11/9/2008 3:27:20 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 11/9/2008 3:18:49 PM

Author: gwendolyn

In response to the OP, I can understand fully Ringster''s frustration and disgust with the running of this area of the forum. I believe that ATW needs much more moderation so that all people are given the chance to debate ideas and are held accountable to provide proof instead of being allowed to lodge false claims against others without any evidence whatsoever. The deliberate ignorance that may be found here, perpetuated by the lack of regulation, is appalling and has often caused me to take breaks from the board. Not ignorance in terms of views themselves, but in the manner those points are presented and the double standard that some appear to want in that they can rip others'' views apart but act victimized when their own points are questioned by others.



I respect the fact that people will not agree on many things, but that all should be free to present their points and for others who disagree to respectfully and intelligently debate those points. There is much to be learned from all sides when people calmly discuss their views and rationales behind them. However, ''debate'' is not synonymous with ''insult,'' and requesting proof for claims of fact is not a demonstration of ''personal attacks.'' Claiming such is yet another cry of wolf from those who are clearly unfamiliar with the distinctions between disagreement and disrespect. Some people cannot handle political debate and should not, in my opinion, be permitted to keep spewing untruths without being held accountable for the irresponsible, misleading ''information'' they put forward as ''fact.''

Gwen, you just keep on hitting the nail on the head girl!!

Totally agree with Gwen. I would be disappointed if AW goes. I actually really enjoyed reading the different takes on the election, especially as I''m not from the US so didn''t get a lot of info in the news over here. I do agree though that both sides can state their point respectfully and without name calling and by doing that, might learn something. I think that as Skippy said, we''ll have to agree to disagree!

 

[Regular Guy]

LaraOnLine, I appreciate and largely agree with your sentiments.

Also...

Date: 11/9/2008 4:48:00 PM
Author: EBree
LOL. This discussion has melted into a giant ball of ridiculousness: liberals accusing conservatives of being offensive and conservatives accusing liberals of being intolerant. Bottom line? Most of us are guilty of exactly what we''re accusing others of, myself included.

With the discussion of politics brings heat, and if you can''t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Try to be respectful of others'' views, and at the same time, if you bring a ''controversial'' view to the circle, be prepared for the responses you''ll get. Check all offensive language and the personal attacks at the door. And for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, let''s take all of this built-up energy to a topic about ANYTHING political. Another ''was Obama actually born on Mars?'' thread is preferable to the bickering in this one.

EBree, I approve that message.

...and guys...here''s the target post. Let''s have at it!

(does seem like this has been going on quite a bit...and having posted here...I feel invested here...maybe for no good reason...and yet it goes on and on. I suppose I, too, am a part of this.)

Sorry,

Warm regards to all,

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 11/9/2008 6:28:29 PM
Author: bee*

Date: 11/9/2008 3:27:20 PM

Author: MoonWater

Date: 11/9/2008 3:18:49 PM

Author: gwendolyn

In response to the OP, I can understand fully Ringster''s frustration and disgust with the running of this area of the forum. I believe that ATW needs much more moderation so that all people are given the chance to debate ideas and are held accountable to provide proof instead of being allowed to lodge false claims against others without any evidence whatsoever. The deliberate ignorance that may be found here, perpetuated by the lack of regulation, is appalling and has often caused me to take breaks from the board. Not ignorance in terms of views themselves, but in the manner those points are presented and the double standard that some appear to want in that they can rip others'' views apart but act victimized when their own points are questioned by others.

I respect the fact that people will not agree on many things, but that all should be free to present their points and for others who disagree to respectfully and intelligently debate those points. There is much to be learned from all sides when people calmly discuss their views and rationales behind them. However, ''debate'' is not synonymous with ''insult,'' and requesting proof for claims of fact is not a demonstration of ''personal attacks.'' Claiming such is yet another cry of wolf from those who are clearly unfamiliar with the distinctions between disagreement and disrespect. Some people cannot handle political debate and should not, in my opinion, be permitted to keep spewing untruths without being held accountable for the irresponsible, misleading ''information'' they put forward as ''fact.''

Gwen, you just keep on hitting the nail on the head girl!!

Totally agree with Gwen. I would be disappointed if AW goes. I actually really enjoyed reading the different takes on the election, especially as I''m not from the US so didn''t get a lot of info in the news over here. I do agree though that both sides can state their point respectfully and without name calling and by doing that, might learn something. I think that as Skippy said, we''ll have to agree to disagree!

I have to jump on this bandwagon for this one, especially the bolded part! Well said, Gwen!

 

[bee*]

Date: 11/9/2008 6:34:49 PM
Author: thing2of2

Date: 11/9/2008 6:28:29 PM

Author: bee*

Date: 11/9/2008 3:27:20 PM


Author: MoonWater

Date: 11/9/2008 3:18:49 PM


Author: gwendolyn


In response to the OP, I can understand fully Ringster''s frustration and disgust with the running of this area of the forum. I believe that ATW needs much more moderation so that all people are given the chance to debate ideas and are held accountable to provide proof instead of being allowed to lodge false claims against others without any evidence whatsoever. The deliberate ignorance that may be found here, perpetuated by the lack of regulation, is appalling and has often caused me to take breaks from the board. Not ignorance in terms of views themselves, but in the manner those points are presented and the double standard that some appear to want in that they can rip others'' views apart but act victimized when their own points are questioned by others.


I respect the fact that people will not agree on many things, but that all should be free to present their points and for others who disagree to respectfully and intelligently debate those points. There is much to be learned from all sides when people calmly discuss their views and rationales behind them. However, ''debate'' is not synonymous with ''insult,'' and requesting proof for claims of fact is not a demonstration of ''personal attacks.'' Claiming such is yet another cry of wolf from those who are clearly unfamiliar with the distinctions between disagreement and disrespect. Some people cannot handle political debate and should not, in my opinion, be permitted to keep spewing untruths without being held accountable for the irresponsible, misleading ''information'' they put forward as ''fact.''

Gwen, you just keep on hitting the nail on the head girl!!

Totally agree with Gwen. I would be disappointed if AW goes. I actually really enjoyed reading the different takes on the election, especially as I''m not from the US so didn''t get a lot of info in the news over here. I do agree though that both sides can state their point respectfully and without name calling and by doing that, might learn something. I think that as Skippy said, we''ll have to agree to disagree!

I have to jump on this bandwagon for this one, especially the bolded part! Well said, Gwen!

That bolded part really does says it all-it''s 100% correct.

 

[zhuzhu]

What I find a little troubling is this:

None of us posters pay a fee to participate in this forum (that I know of). We are not members because we "pay for Pricescope service", we are guests. How can we expect our host/hostess to behave according to what WE wish, and even point fingers at them when it is us who generated some "controversial topics" to begin with?

Pricescope is the host of this forum, therefor it has the right to deny anyone's posting here without ANY REASON should they want to. How they chose to moderate this forum is UP TO THEM. At the same time, any members who wish to leave is completely up to their free will as well. I really do not understand what all the complaining is about?

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 11/9/2008 6:37:54 PM
Author: zhuzhu
What I find a little troubling is this:

None of us posters pay a fee to participate in this forum (that I know of). We are not members because we ''pay for Pricescope service'', we are guests. How can we expect our host/hostess to behave according to what WE wish, and even point fingers at them when it is us who generated some ''controversial topics'' to begin with?

Pricescope is the host of this forum, therefor it has the right to deny anyone''s posting here without ANY REASON should they want to. How they chose to moderate this forum is UP TO THEM.

And yet another good point!

I''m going to say it again-if you don''t like ATW, don''t post in it! Don''t even look at it!

It''s really as simple as that. Yes, I am offended by some posts. I''m sure people are offended by some of mine. But I can hang, so I stick around. If you can''t hang, don''t come to ATW!

(And I should be clear that I don''t think there''s anything wrong with not wanting to participate in ATW, so let''s hope no one takes this as a personal attack!)

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 11/9/2008 6:37:54 PM
Author: zhuzhu
What I find a little troubling is this:


None of us posters pay a fee to participate in this forum (that I know of). We are not members because we ''pay for Pricescope service'', we are guests. How can we expect our host/hostess to behave according to what WE wish, and even point fingers at them when it is us who generated some ''controversial topics'' to begin with?


Pricescope is the host of this forum, therefor it has the right to deny anyone''s posting here without ANY REASON should they want to. How they chose to moderate this forum is UP TO THEM. At the same time, any members who wish to leave is completely up to their free will as well. I really do not understand what all the complaining is about?

I totally see what you''re saying, but if I had a friend, or host, who behaved apparently erratically and removed guests from the party for no apparent reason, I would eventually feel - on an emotional level, no less - that my host was somewhat hostile, and that perhaps I was not welcome either.

So, while decisions might be made on an ad-hoc basis from time to time, and as in life we cannot expect complete fairness in decision making all the time, we should be able to expect a degree of predictability in moderating decisions. If we want to have the most fun and participation, that is.

 

[Haven]

Date: 11/9/2008 6:42:10 PM
Author: thing2of2

Date: 11/9/2008 6:37:54 PM

Author: zhuzhu

What I find a little troubling is this:


None of us posters pay a fee to participate in this forum (that I know of). We are not members because we ''pay for Pricescope service'', we are guests. How can we expect our host/hostess to behave according to what WE wish, and even point fingers at them when it is us who generated some ''controversial topics'' to begin with?


Pricescope is the host of this forum, therefor it has the right to deny anyone''s posting here without ANY REASON should they want to. How they chose to moderate this forum is UP TO THEM.

And yet another good point!


I''m going to say it again-if you don''t like ATW, don''t post in it! Don''t even look at it!


It''s really as simple as that. Yes, I am offended by some posts. I''m sure people are offended by some of mine. But I can hang, so I stick around. If you can''t hang, don''t come to ATW!


(And I should be clear that I don''t think there''s anything wrong with not wanting to participate in ATW, so let''s hope no one takes this as a personal attack!)

Ditto, Thing2. I think the greatest thing about PS is the diversity of opinion, belief, and experience.

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 11/9/2008 2:51:16 PM
Author: gwendolyn

Date: 11/9/2008 1:49:48 PM

Author: SarahLovesJS

Date: 11/9/2008 12:30:40 PM


Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/9/2008 11:26:18 AM



Author: gwendolyn




Copying only part of someone''s post

Wasn''t going to dignify the rest of the hogwash with a quote is why I cut it off.



Anyone who doesn''t tow the liberal line gets attacked here that''s a fact.



And some of the worst of the offenders are posting in this thread.



On occasion if I''m bored I might fire back :}



And as a matter of fact my local liberal rag paper did print a letter to the editor where someone was complaining about having to go to a church to vote...



Wasn''t the first time wont be the last.

You''re applauding, Sarah. Do *you* have proof of these ''attacks''?

I do, but they''re not attacks on Karl - that''s his business...and as for me that''s water under the bridge at this point, it''s not going to help at all to hash it all out again and point fingers. I just wanted to show my support for Karl for saying some things that very much needed to be said!

And I know you disagree and that''s fine..we''ll just agree to disagree!

I am most definitely not interested in fighting with anyone over this, so I will step out now.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Guys, have I really just read SIX PAGES of arguing about . . . arguing?!?!?!

I think we can all agree that none of us is perfect, and that each of us has made inappropriate comments at some point in time, and that each of us has been the recipient of inappropriate comments at some point in time. Can we just learn from our mistakes and call this off now? Please?

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 11/9/2008 7:04:56 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl
Guys, have I really just read SIX PAGES of arguing about . . . arguing?!?!?!

I think we can all agree that none of us is perfect, and that each of us has made inappropriate comments at some point in time, and that each of us has been the recipient of inappropriate comments at some point in time. Can we just learn from our mistakes and call this off now? Please?

Hahaha-guess that about sums it up! I like your proposal, Irish...I doubt it will happen, but I like it! You can count me in!

 

[Lauren8211]

Date: 11/9/2008 7:04:56 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl
Guys, have I really just read SIX PAGES of arguing about . . . arguing?!?!?!

I think we can all agree that none of us is perfect, and that each of us has made inappropriate comments at some point in time, and that each of us has been the recipient of inappropriate comments at some point in time. Can we just learn from our mistakes and call this off now? Please?

LOL. Did you seriously read all 6 pages? I couldn''t take the whole thing. I skimmed!

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 11/9/2008 7:34:27 PM
Author: elledizzy5


LOL. Did you seriously read all 6 pages? I couldn''t take the whole thing. I skimmed!

Wellll . . . I read most of it anyway!

 

[Linda W]

Date: 11/9/2008 7:36:09 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl

Date: 11/9/2008 7:34:27 PM

Author: elledizzy5



LOL. Did you seriously read all 6 pages? I couldn''t take the whole thing. I skimmed!

Wellll . . . I read most of it anyway!

HA!! That''s why I love my Supa Granny

 

[luckystar112]

Date: 11/9/2008 5:16:15 PM
Author: Demelza

Date: 11/9/2008 4:04:37 PM
I completely agree with you, DS, that all viewpoints should be respected. You have every right to eat meat or believe that abortion is immoral or whatever else your conscience tells you is just and right. That said, I don''t think it''s just or right for your (not directing this at you specifically, of course) morals to dictate public policy. I actually think Diamondfan''s meat analogy is rather apt here -- I am a vegetarian because of the ethical and environmental implications of killing animals for food. Would I vote into law a bill that outlawed eating meat for everyone? No, I would not because I don''t think everyone needs to abide by my moral code. If you (again, not you specifically) believe abortion is murder, don''t get one; if you believe gay marriage is wrong (for whatever reason), don''t marry someone of the same sex; but don''t limit my options because of your beliefs. That, to me, is one of the primary differences between liberal and conservative ideology and that is why I''m a liberal. I hope I''ve stated all this in a respectful way. I''m not meaning to challenge you specifically, DS, I''m just wanting to add my 2 cents on this issue and your post offered the opportunity to do so. I really do appreciate that you''re always respectful here.

See, I gotta disagree again.

I think that one of the biggest misconceptions about conservatives is that they are thought to be these close-minded people that are trying to block people from doing things like getting married or having an abortion. The perfect example that proves that is a falsehood is Prop 8 in Cali. Obama won that state, so at least SOME of the voters had to have been Democrat. The point is...too many people define political parties by social issues. There are plenty of Republicans on PS who have come out to say that they don''t agree with those ideologies. And judging by Prop 8 there are at least some liberals that do. Somewhere along the way the GOP started focusing only on satisfying their religious base, and that base does not represent me, or why I am a republican.

And side note: I think people with those beliefs have a right to them as well. I''m not trying to be anti-religious. Religious, athiest, whatever--everyone deserves to be heard, not matter how you developed your moral code.

 

[iwannaprettyone]

Date: 11/8/2008 7:49:18 PM
Author: purrfectpear
I found myself thinking alot about Pricescope yesterday after the ugliness that reared it''s head in the last few days.

I finally put my finger on what was so disturbing to me. Generally I am against censorship. In fact I frequent more than a few forums that are completely unmoderated.

But Pricescope IS different. I find it particularly ironic and just wrong that Pricescope is a place where you can''t say ''OMG, that''s one ugly ring...what in the world were you thinking?'', ''that''s a whopper of an inclusion'', or ''nice ring...from 1980'', but you can denigrate race and sexual orientation.

Since Pricescope is a moderated forum I think perhaps we should adopt the same policies in ATW that are common to the average workplace. If you couldn''t say it at work without being sent to HR for diversity training or receiving a warning, you shouldn''t be saying it here either. It boggles my mind that everyone can agree that it''s not cool to tell a bride her dress makes her look like a stuffed sausage, but some can''t agree to leave their religious dogma at home? WTH

As a member/ lurker for many many years, this is not a new occurrence, not knew at all. The difference now? Back then it was absolutely not tolerated; thread were not only deleted but members banned as well, permanently.

The vastness and anonymity of the internet allows for anyone to say ANYTHING they please with little circumstance. I avoid threads that are noxious as there are so many posts that give me that fuzzy feeling of family. It is a choice, you chose to browse and participate and choose to avoid posters and threads that push a hot button for your own affiliations.

There are approximately 6 posters I can think of off the top of my head that I would immediately nix from this forum not because of their racial, political, or gender based affiliation, but for their damn right rude and inappropriate comments. There is a way of communicating your opinions without being crude or offensive, but some do not possess that level skill and consequently appear terse and cruel.

On the other I find a consensus boycott somewhat immature. I “get it” but I feel this only stokes this persistent duel of conflicting ideals and further damages what we have grown here in this truly unique internet environment. It also gives me that sense that “they have won”. I could enter a smiley face here or duck, run and hide, but I won’t insult the intelligence of some many wonderfully smart individuals. I will however reference a post that is actually a sticky that I started referencing this same issue

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/remember-our-roots-why-did-ya-join.93699/

And for those that are not link inclined:

This has been on my mind ladies and gents.

Totally my opinion, so don''t hold it against me.

It is indeed unfortunate to see this dynamic that has festered here at pricescope. It is however not anything new to the forum world. Each and every one of us log in everyday for our own personal reasons, whether it be to help, to obtain some type of gratification, to share and search ideas, to test others as well as ourselves and sadly some join an post as a way to raise conflict in an otherwise smooth environment.

It is the wondrous world of the internet that allows a certain amount of anonymity and with that a gateway for some to act and say things that they may (or may not) express in the real world. Each and every member is entitled to hit the submit button, therefore each and every one of us should respect that amount of communicative power and remember that although we sit at a computer in a seemingly safe and sterile environment far from repercussion that the audience is VERY real with very real feelings.
With the founders of pricescope in mind I am somewhat ashamed that we all continue to act so poorly with this issue or unkindness and dramatic redundancy continuing to arise. After all we have all come here for the love of diamonds and many of us have formed wonderful relationships.
Love you guys, now I am off my soap box!
With that said, I am torn. I will continue to participate, post and aid here on Pricescope as it has become such a part of my life. My new DFW friends I have met and those that I anticipate to cross paths with someday…

For the love of jewels, friends and family we unite.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 11/9/2008 8:13:45 PM
Author: Linda W

Date: 11/9/2008 7:36:09 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl

Date: 11/9/2008 7:34:27 PM

Author: elledizzy5



LOL. Did you seriously read all 6 pages? I couldn''t take the whole thing. I skimmed!

Wellll . . . I read most of it anyway!

HA!! That''s why I love my Supa Granny

LOL! Love you too, Supa Granny Linda!!!

 

[Demelza]

Date: 11/9/2008 8:36:40 PM
Author: luckystar112

Date: 11/9/2008 5:16:15 PM

Author: Demelza

Date: 11/9/2008 4:04:37 PM

I completely agree with you, DS, that all viewpoints should be respected. You have every right to eat meat or believe that abortion is immoral or whatever else your conscience tells you is just and right. That said, I don''t think it''s just or right for your (not directing this at you specifically, of course) morals to dictate public policy. I actually think Diamondfan''s meat analogy is rather apt here -- I am a vegetarian because of the ethical and environmental implications of killing animals for food. Would I vote into law a bill that outlawed eating meat for everyone? No, I would not because I don''t think everyone needs to abide by my moral code. If you (again, not you specifically) believe abortion is murder, don''t get one; if you believe gay marriage is wrong (for whatever reason), don''t marry someone of the same sex; but don''t limit my options because of your beliefs. That, to me, is one of the primary differences between liberal and conservative ideology and that is why I''m a liberal. I hope I''ve stated all this in a respectful way. I''m not meaning to challenge you specifically, DS, I''m just wanting to add my 2 cents on this issue and your post offered the opportunity to do so. I really do appreciate that you''re always respectful here.

See, I gotta disagree again.

I think that one of the biggest misconceptions about conservatives is that they are thought to be these close-minded people that are trying to block people from doing things like getting married or having an abortion. The perfect example that proves that is a falsehood is Prop 8 in Cali. Obama won that state, so at least SOME of the voters had to have been Democrat. The point is...too many people define political parties by social issues. There are plenty of Republicans on PS who have come out to say that they don''t agree with those ideologies. And judging by Prop 8 there are at least some liberals that do. Somewhere along the way the GOP started focusing only on satisfying their religious base, and that base does not represent me, or why I am a republican.


And side note: I think people with those beliefs have a right to them as well. I''m not trying to be anti-religious. Religious, athiest, whatever--everyone deserves to be heard, not matter how you developed your moral code.

I never said nor did I mean to imply that every Republican is socially conservative, or conversely, that every Democrat is socially liberal. I intentionally avoided the use of those labels in favor of the more general liberal and conservative. In fact, I don''t usually self-identify as Democrat because, frankly, the party is too moderate for my taste. Instead, I describe myself as a liberal because I think that''s more accurate. That said, I absolutely agree with you that the Republican party seems to have been co-opted in recent years by the religious right, most (if not all) of whom are socially conservative. If I were a more moderate Republican (i.e. fiscally conservative, but socially liberal), I would have a very difficult time allying myself with a party that has strayed so far from its ideal. I sincerely hope that the party is able to correct its overzealous pull to the right so that it more accurately represents the views of all its members. I''m sorry you feel somewhat abandoned by your party. That must be very disappointing.

You are absolutely right that some of those voters who voted for Obama also voted yes on Prop 8. It''s also true that while Obama urged Californians to vote no, neither he nor Biden has come out in favor of same sex marriage. Clearly, certain kinds of institutional bigotry are accepted in this country. That saddens me greatly.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 11/9/2008 10:37:14 AM
Author: luckystar112
Oh dear. Let's just remember that in the thread you are talking about, arjunajane, your first post was to ME asking me why I am 'hateful and bitter'. Remember? Perhaps that is why it was like a different board to you. I'm sure your first post in the LIW section wasn't 'Why are some of you girls so impatient and cranky?' Sorry if you didn't like the attitude from me after that, but I felt like I was being insulted as well. But posting about it (again) like I am some big bad monster who came after you, I just think is silly. I regret making you feel bad, but somehow I doubt you feel sorry for making me feel bad.
Oh well! We were supposed to have squashed this.

ETA: And in case this is misunderstood...I'm not being confrontational here. I think it is a good example of how the tone of a post or the words that are written can come off like attacks. Arjunajane later said that she wasn't trying to attack me, but I took it that way at the time. But like I said, I believe we got past it.

I think you should learn not to take everything so personally. You should notice I was very general in my post - I don't know why you think it was directed at you.
Yes, it is finished - does that mean I cannot contribute to any other threads here without being told I am being silly due to one disagreement?

Prime example of what this thread is about, if you ask me

and exactly why I will again return to lurker status in ATW.

For posterity's sake, this is what I wrote "I will admit I got off to a rocky start in ATW. I found alot of attitude and insults etc that were very surprising to me, as of course nothing like that had I encountered in RT, SMTR, Hangout etc.. It was almost like another board, Not the PS I was used to.
There seems to be certain posters who revel in the confrontation they get into here, and I'm all too happy to stick to other areas to avoid that sorta thing."


Not once lucky did I refer to any specific poster or thread, and I think you have over reacted to my comments. If you want it to be over, stop bringing it up imvho.

 

[Demelza]

Date: 11/9/2008 5:36:59 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 11/9/2008 5:16:15 PM

Author: Demelza

Date: 11/9/2008 4:04:37 PM

Author: diamondseeker2006




DF, we do live in a democracy and have a right to vote our own consciences, thank goodness. We have the right to differ on what we believe is best for our community, state, and country based on those beliefs. And then we vote. I respect the beliefs of others. If for example, your conscience does not allow you to eat meat, then I totally respect that. But please do not put me down for eating it. Or, if I believe that human life is precious and should not be destroyed, please respect that and I will respect your right to the opinion that it is okay to abort unborn babies, or whatever the issue. I don''t hate those with opposing views on controversial topics. But I do resent the fact that my opinions may not be given respect because they don''t agree with everyone else.

I completely agree with you, DS, that all viewpoints should be respected. You have every right to eat meat or believe that abortion is immoral or whatever else your conscience tells you is just and right. That said, I don''t think it''s just or right for your (not directing this at you specifically, of course) morals to dictate public policy. I actually think Diamondfan''s meat analogy is rather apt here -- I am a vegetarian because of the ethical and environmental implications of killing animals for food. Would I vote into law a bill that outlawed eating meat for everyone? No, I would not because I don''t think everyone needs to abide by my moral code. If you (again, not you specifically) believe abortion is murder, don''t get one; if you believe gay marriage is wrong (for whatever reason), don''t marry someone of the same sex; but don''t limit my options because of your beliefs. That, to me, is one of the primary differences between liberal and conservative ideology and that is why I''m a liberal. I hope I''ve stated all this in a respectful way. I''m not meaning to challenge you specifically, DS, I''m just wanting to add my 2 cents on this issue and your post offered the opportunity to do so. I really do appreciate that you''re always respectful here.

Thank you so very much, Dem! This is the kind of interchange that I enjoy. I believe that people in a democracy have the right to vote their consciences. We have to have laws for our good. Do I agree with all laws passed? Of course not. I certainly will use my freedom to do the things that are legal to do as well as to avoid things that my conscience does not allow. Even our president-elect believes that some issues should be determined by the states. We all have certain moral values and will vote based on those values. There will always be lines to be drawn (ex: should adults and children be free to have sex legally? Should it be legal for people and animals to have sex? Should drugs be legalized?). See, we may not draw the lines in the same places, but there''ll almost always be a line for everyone. But that is why our system is great. We can vote on the issue or elect representatives to vote on the issues and we can have our opinions count in that way. I really do have liberal friends and we have mutual respect for each other''s views even when we do not agree. I would fight for your right to express your opinion and to vote according to your conscience! (Incidentally, I am registered unaffiliated. I am not a member of any political party.)

I''m glad you didn''t take offense to my post and glad you enjoy the interchange of opposing ideas. I do as well.

By the way, I was looking at your solitaire thread a while back and it made me change my mind yet again about my ring! Yes, I''m as nutty as they come, but I''m in the process of yet another reset. The beauty and simplicity of your set reminded me of what I truly love.

Okay, back to politics!

 

[luckystar112]

Date: 11/9/2008 11:21:58 PM
Author: arjunajane

I think you should learn not to take everything so personally. You should notice I was very general in my post - I don't know why you think it was directed at you.
Yes, it is finished - does that mean I cannot contribute to any other threads here without being told I am being silly due to one disagreement?

Prime example of what this thread is about, if you ask me

and exactly why I will again return to lurker status in ATW.

Your words were, and I quote:

"I will admit I got off to a rocky start in ATW. I found alot of attitude and insults etc that were very surprising to me, as of course nothing like that had I encountered in RT, SMTR, Hangout etc.. It was almost like another board, Not the PS I was used to.
There seems to be certain posters who revel in the confrontation they get into here, and I'm all too happy to stick to other areas to avoid that sorta thing."

I was merely pointing out that your rocky start in ATW was in the Republican thread where you quoted ME and asked me why I was hateful and bitter. That was your start. Your first post in ATW. So again, I'm sorry you were surprised by my reaction to that and felt that I was insulting you.
I'm definitely not trying to run you off. I'm just pointing out that there is more to the story than me giving you attitude and insulting you, unprovoked. Yes, you were very general in your post. You did not name me by name. But seeing as how I am the only one you ever had it out with, and on your first day of posting in ATW, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you were talking about that altercation (or, "rocky start"). When you acted like I was attacking you in the dem thread after it happened I didn't go defend myself there, but I'll defend myself here. And I'm not even defending myself, I'm just setting the facts straight.
So yes, let's please bury this hatchet. I would like you to stay.
I said I wasn't trying to confront you on this...but it is a good example of how there are two sides to every story and people take things out of context. I never said you shouldn't post. I enjoy your posts, especially about life in Australia and what you were saying about health care the other day.

 

[diamondfan]

That was my point...that we all see things somewhat differently and I might not like how you see something but I need to allow you your viewpoint and be respectful. Now, there are some things I DO NOT get, like being a bigot, certain things do scare me in humankind. But for the most part, whether or not I like what you believe in and how you chose to live your life, that is immaterial...we all have choices to make and live somewhere where as long as they are legal, we can make those choices that best suit us. I just wish people could, whatever they believe for themselves, ACCEPT that others might see things differently and be fair about it. I am not here to change your mind or make you see MY view, though I am open to learning and know I have, in the past, seen things from a new perspective on occasion. But I dislike being catergorized or pigeonholed or having assumptions made about me, doubt anyone likes that much.

 

[VRBeauty]

I've enjoyed much of the ATW discussion during this election cycle. I found a lot of the discussion thought-provoking, and there were many times when I learned from what others had to say, or considered my own opinions in a different light.

I am a liberal from a deeply religious family. I found it very offensive when people were labeled as bigots because of positions they took that were based on their religious beliefs, especially when that label was put on some of our more considerate and thoughtful (albeit conservative

) ATW participants.

The discussion on most politically-oriented forums is blatantly one-sided and dismissive of opposing opinions; ruled pretty much by mob mentality. Most of the time I don't think that was the case in ATW...maybe that was because my viewpoint was aligned with the majority of the posters? But there were times when this became a very inhospitable place. If I was part of that, I'm sorry.

As for "staying out of the kitchen," I suppose that is one option. As I said, I'm a liberal and I found lots of posters with similar viewpoints here. But... if ATW was just a bunch of like-minded people patting themselves on the back for their "open-mindedness," it wouldn't be much of a discussion and there wouldn't be much reason to drop by.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 11/9/2008 11:45:40 PM
Author: luckystar112

Date: 11/9/2008 11:21:58 PM
Author: arjunajane

I think you should learn not to take everything so personally. You should notice I was very general in my post - I don't know why you think it was directed at you.
Yes, it is finished - does that mean I cannot contribute to any other threads here without being told I am being silly due to one disagreement?

Prime example of what this thread is about, if you ask me

and exactly why I will again return to lurker status in ATW.

Your words were, and I quote:

'I will admit I got off to a rocky start in ATW. I found alot of attitude and insults etc that were very surprising to me, as of course nothing like that had I encountered in RT, SMTR, Hangout etc.. It was almost like another board, Not the PS I was used to.
There seems to be certain posters who revel in the confrontation they get into here, and I'm all too happy to stick to other areas to avoid that sorta thing.'

I was merely pointing out that your rocky start in ATW was in the Republican thread where you quoted ME and asked me why I was hateful and bitter. That was your start. Your first post in ATW. So again, I'm sorry you were surprised by my reaction to that and felt that I was insulting you.
I'm definitely not trying to run you off. I'm just pointing out that there is more to the story than me giving you attitude and insulting you, unprovoked. Yes, you were very general in your post. You did not name me by name. But seeing as how I am the only one you ever had it out with, and on your first day of posting in ATW, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you were talking about that altercation (or, 'rocky start'). When you acted like I was attacking you in the dem thread after it happened I didn't go defend myself there, but I'll defend myself here. And I'm not even defending myself, I'm just setting the facts straight.
So yes, let's please bury this hatchet. I would like you to stay.
I said I wasn't trying to confront you on this...but it is a good example of how there are two sides to every story and people take things out of context. I never said you shouldn't post. I enjoy your posts, especially about life in Australia and what you were saying about health care the other day.

Actually lucky, I did have to "have it out" with a number of other people in that thread, and we can go back and forth about this all day and won't agree.
I was not re-hashing that event nor trying to tell a side of any story, as much as you may have taken it that way - I was contributing my experience to this, a new thread. Which I now regret. Believe it or not I'm not into confrontation, which is why I like PS so much (most of it)..

ugh, fuggedaboutit.

Thankyou for your compliment about my other posts. Consider the hatchet buried, dug-up, and re - buried again, lol

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/10/2008 12:06:36 AM
Author: VRBeauty

The discussion on most politically-oriented forums is blatantly one-sided and dismissive of opposing opinions; ruled pretty much by mob mentality. Most of the time I don''t think that was the case in ATW...maybe that was because my viewpoint was aligned with the majority of the posters? But there were times when this became a very inhospitable place. If I was part of that, I''m sorry.

I am not saying your part of it because I don''t recall a time when you were...
But if you check this poll you will see that over 200 people voted republican in the poll.
Just a handful less than the liberals.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ps-election-poll.93913/
Where are the republican threads? There is just one and the mods had to protect it under threat to keep it from getting over run.
The ATW forum is dominated by liberals who create a hostile environment to the point that conservatives do not want to post here.
Every conservative that had posted in this thread has been jumped on by 3 or 4 liberal troublemakers at the min.
Then when one don''t want to play the game with them because it is useless you get called names.
No thanks.