Letter from a concerned and turned off PS member - now a Permanently turned off PSer

[diamondfan]

??

One thing you need to know is I NEVER intentionally insult or try to offend anyone here. Human nature being what it is, I cannot say I haven''t done so, but it is NEVER on purpose. I say what I think and speak my mind, but never with an intent toward offense or hurting anyone.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/9/2008 12:32:21 AM
Author: diamondfan
??


One thing you need to know is I NEVER intentionally insult or try to offend anyone here. Human nature being what it is, I cannot say I haven't done so, but it is NEVER on purpose. I say what I think and speak my mind, but never with an intent toward offense or hurting anyone.

We all know that you don't mean anything intentionally, but I think Moon was just trying to say that calling someone closed minded because they didn't believe what you did about being open to other people is in itself being closed minded to the other person's beliefs.

 

[MoonWater]

DF, it''s ok! I wasn''t trying to pick on you, I was just pointing out how people post here making their beliefs known and thinking the other person is closed minded for not being open to their view, and as a result, suddenly that person feels attacked blah blah then it''s a war in ATW. I just thought it was funny that you were trying to nicely explain things and by accident said something that would have probably started one of those ATW wars. No biggie, just irony.

 

[diamondfan]

Totally get it. But how else do you point out that if someone is not at least accepting of the fact that their view is not IT, they are cutting off some aspect of being tolerant? Again, not saying that they would have to AGREE with you to be openminded, just know THEIR view was not the only one.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/9/2008 12:38:27 AM
Author: diamondfan
Totally get it. But how else do you point out that if someone is not at least accepting of the fact that their view is not IT, they are cutting off some aspect of being tolerant? Again, not saying that they would have to AGREE with you to be openminded, just know THEIR view was not the only one.

Just like that.

 

[vintagecushion]

Actually I for one think of diamondfan as one of the few unfailing polite posters around here.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 11/9/2008 12:38:27 AM
Author: diamondfan
Totally get it. But how else do you point out that if someone is not at least accepting of the fact that their view is not IT, they are cutting off some aspect of being tolerant? Again, not saying that they would have to AGREE with you to be openminded, just know THEIR view was not the only one.

I have no idea and I think that''s part of what has become frustrating.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 11/9/2008 12:40:52 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 11/9/2008 12:38:27 AM
Author: diamondfan
Totally get it. But how else do you point out that if someone is not at least accepting of the fact that their view is not IT, they are cutting off some aspect of being tolerant? Again, not saying that they would have to AGREE with you to be openminded, just know THEIR view was not the only one.

I have no idea and I think that''s part of what has become frustrating.

I think we should try to say, I hear you and get what you are saying. But I feel this way...... Then agree to disagree. People want to be acknowledged, to be heard. Not to be put down for how they feel.

 

[Skippy123]

Wishfulthinking if you are reading this thread I would like to say that I really hope you stick around; I feel really lucky to know so many diverse people here on PS!!!

 

[decodelighted]

I am fervently intolerant of intolerance!!!!

 

[Linda W]

Date: 11/9/2008 1:24:14 AM
Author: Skippy123
Wishfulthinking if you are reading this thread I would like to say that I really hope you stick around; I feel really lucky to know so many diverse people here on PS!!!

WishfulThinking: I do hope you are reading this thread, if you are please stay on PS. I for one, want to know how you are doing. I know many, many hurtful things were said to you on the Prop 8 thread that upset a lot of us, but there are many people here, who do care about you.

Love, Linda

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/9/2008 12:32:21 AM
Author: diamondfan
??

One thing you need to know is I NEVER intentionally insult or try to offend anyone here. Human nature being what it is, I cannot say I haven''t done so, but it is NEVER on purpose. I say what I think and speak my mind, but never with an intent toward offense or hurting anyone.

Absolutely Dfan!

I have lurked in ATW occasionally and for some time and reading this thread a thought came to me.

Feelings have been running understandably high recently due to the election. Is it now possible that as things settle down, that the ATW forum will also...

 

[diamondfan]

Lorelei, I would think and hope that with the election behind us things can calm down. However, I think, from what I am reading, there are hurt feelings and some posters have been rude and that might not be soothed so easily. I have not read all the threads in question, I tend to skip those that seem ultra contentious, but I can see how people might feel hurt by another person''s attitudes. We are all entitled to our views and to be heard. Do I like and agree with everything I hear and see? No way. If you were at a dinner party in real life and it started to get heated, you would likely walk away or try to change the subject. I think the few posters who are really not getting the rules are likely similarly obtuse in real life. Nothing you can do in that case, except avoid the thread or ignore that particular person. Get what you can from the thread and try to ignore the other aspects. We are not going to share all of the same beliefs, but should conduct ourselves accordingly. We do not have to agree, but should not be terrible about it.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/9/2008 7:32:13 AM
Author: diamondfan
Lorelei, I would think and hope that with the election behind us things can calm down. However, I think, from what I am reading, there are hurt feelings and some posters have been rude and that might not be soothed so easily. I have not read all the threads in question, I tend to skip those that seem ultra contentious, but I can see how people might feel hurt by another person's attitudes. We are all entitled to our views and to be heard. Do I like and agree with everything I hear and see? No way. If you were at a dinner party in real life and it started to get heated, you would likely walk away or try to change the subject. I think the few posters who are really not getting the rules are likely similarly obtuse in real life. Nothing you can do in that case, except avoid the thread or ignore that particular person. Get what you can from the thread and try to ignore the other aspects. We are not going to share all of the same beliefs, but should conduct ourselves accordingly. We do not have to agree, but should not be terrible about it.

Yep - excellent points! I also must have missed many of the posts in question.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/9/2008 12:16:34 AM
Author: miraclesrule




We are supposed to deliberate with our neighbors...our online community even...although we should be able to disagree without violence in our thoughts or in our posts. I thnk that the majority of people on this forum make every attempt to deliberate in a spirit of education and provocative ideas.

It is true that there have been some very bitter and caustic posts, but that is the nature of deliberation. It doesn''t have to escalate to violence.

If we are not allowed to deliberate during a presidential race in a time where our global reputation and economic crisis is not to be discussed because a few peope with thin skins or narrow minds become attack dogs, then we will abdicate our roles as informed and engaged citizens. Ordinary people are supposed to run things. I for one am proud of the willingness of Ali and the moderators to suspend whatever personal bias they may have in order to allow these threads.

i have done the opposite. I think I have gotten at least 5 more addicts to PS

...


I would not hesitate to report an attack on this board....

Wow!!! I have been incredibly impressed at the wisdom expressed by people contributing to this thread! I don''t think I have a single new idea to add. I just wanted to comment on the incredible quality of the thinking and writing here. I particularly loved what miraclesrule wrote, of course, or I wouldn''t have quoted it. I also love LaraOnline''s comment about why she thought religion should be discussed! I know that is not an option and I am not trying to bring it up for discussion. I just think that her point of view is fascinating. I am fascinated by the diversity in the points of view of Pricescope members. It is hard for us, sometimes, not to step on each others'' toes. I hear Storm (Karl) when he writes about his experience on these boards. If one is deeply religious it is sometimes difficult to communicate with others and obtain respect. I am not deeply religious myself, but when I express religious convictions and they are respected, I feel very grateful. I will not get into the details now, but in my case Rank Amateur, an arch conservative, knew that my opposition to the death penalty was based on conviction and respected it although he was arguing with others about their opposion to it in a certain case.


Deborah

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 11/8/2008 8:41:26 PM
Author: Ellen
I don''t understand telling people not to come here to shop for a diamond, just because of another section of the board.

Me too Ellen - I was a mbr here for almost a year before I even ventured over here, and probably would not have if not for the election. I am sure there are many mbrs who come here for diamond reasons and don''t even know this section is here.

I will admit I got off to a rocky start in ATW. I found alot of attitude and insults etc that were very surprising to me, as of course nothing like that had I encountered in RT, SMTR, Hangout etc.. It was almost like another board, Not the PS I was used to.
There seems to be certain posters who revel in the confrontation they get into here, and I''m all too happy to stick to other areas to avoid that sorta thing.

So, I went back to mostly lurking in ATW- occasionally I am motivated to post here, but I always seem to second guess or censor what I''m saying for fear of reprisal or other negative response - and I don''t enjoy feeling like that.

But that said, I do believe it has its place here, and I think the mods have done a good job of it in a tough couple weeks. I''m sure if they felt this part was disparaging to the rest of the (diamond-related) board, they would act.

Anyway, not sure what my point is, except I agree ATW has its place and I enjoy learning alot from intelligent and informed posters here, whether their views are inline with mine or no.
The threads that I think are offensive or trying to cause trouble, I have just had to decide to try to avoid. After all, we all have the choice of where and how much we read/post (clearly).

 

[luckystar112]

Oh dear. Let's just remember that in the thread you are talking about, arjunajane, your first post was to ME asking me why I am "hateful and bitter". Remember? Perhaps that is why it was like a different board to you. I'm sure your first post in the LIW section wasn't "Why are some of you girls so impatient and cranky?" Sorry if you didn't like the attitude from me after that, but I felt like I was being insulted as well. But posting about it (again) like I am some big bad monster who came after you, I just think is silly. I regret making you feel bad, but somehow I doubt you feel sorry for making me feel bad.
Oh well! We were supposed to have squashed this.

ETA: And in case this is misunderstood...I'm not being confrontational here. I think it is a good example of how the tone of a post or the words that are written can come off like attacks. Arjunajane later said that she wasn't trying to attack me, but I took it that way at the time. But like I said, I believe we got past it.

 

[risingsun]

I have only ventured into ATW since the presidential campaigns began. I have learned a great deal from a number of our posters and became politically energized in the process. Yes, there are threads that are heated and comments that are OTT. I don''t think that this merits closing this forum. PS has group norms. We don''t tell a bride to be that she looks like a sausage in her gown [ref: PP] or that someone''s diamond is microscopic. ATW the world is an exchange of ideas. If someone is truly out of line, report them. I would hope that we can come together in rational debate for the greater good. Sometimes that means that others will disagree with us, but that is what typifies a free society. I will get off my soapbox now....

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 11/8/2008 8:43:45 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/8/2008 8:40:27 PM

Author: purrfectpear

It's clear you resent

Keep the insults rolling your doing good and proving my point.

Saying you resent something is hardly an insult. Copying only part of someone's post (and even in this case, sentence) is bordering on dishonest as you are attempting to remove all context from the comment or phrase in question, as you have done to purrfectpear. And, you have a tendency to suggest bias even when none is present (as is the case of the thread which asked where we all vote--you said you voted in a church and then made a derogatory comment about how it's basically a matter of time before agnostics and atheists complain against having to vote in churches, even though no one said any such thing and I, as an atheist, would have no problem with such a thing. You seem to invite and encourage religious tensions, which leads me to feel that you are more of an instigator than a victim. There is a good reason why religious discussion should be left off the board.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 11/9/2008 11:26:18 AM
Author: gwendolyn

Date: 11/8/2008 8:43:45 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/8/2008 8:40:27 PM


Author: purrfectpear


It''s clear you resent

Keep the insults rolling your doing good and proving my point.

Saying you resent something is hardly an insult. Copying only part of someone''s post (and even in this case, sentence) is bordering on dishonest as you are attempting to remove all context from the comment or phrase in question, as you have done to purrfectpear. And, you have a tendency to suggest bias even when none is present (as is the case of the thread which asked where we all vote--you said you voted in a church and then made a derogatory comment about how it''s basically a matter of time before agnostics and atheists complain against having to vote in churches, even though no one said any such thing and I, as an atheist, would have no problem with such a thing. You seem to invite and encourage religious tensions, which leads me to feel that you are more of an instigator than a victim. There is a good reason why religious discussion should be left off the board.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 11/9/2008 11:26:18 AM
Author: gwendolyn

Date: 11/8/2008 8:43:45 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/8/2008 8:40:27 PM

Author: purrfectpear

It''s clear you resent

Keep the insults rolling your doing good and proving my point.

Saying you resent something is hardly an insult. Copying only part of someone''s post (and even in this case, sentence) is bordering on dishonest as you are attempting to remove all context from the comment or phrase in question, as you have done to purrfectpear. And, you have a tendency to suggest bias even when none is present (as is the case of the thread which asked where we all vote--you said you voted in a church and then made a derogatory comment about how it''s basically a matter of time before agnostics and atheists complain against having to vote in churches, even though no one said any such thing and I, as an atheist, would have no problem with such a thing. You seem to invite and encourage religious tensions, which leads me to feel that you are more of an instigator than a victim. There is a good reason why religious discussion should be left off the board.

Ditto, although I''m sure this will be misconstrued as an attack or an insult as well!

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 11/9/2008 1:46:19 AM
Author: decodelighted
I am fervently intolerant of intolerance!!!!

haHA so am I!

These ATW threads are a reflection of our polarized country. Obama won by an overwhelming and incredible margin, but McCain got plenty of votes. There are more than two types of voters in the US, but the majority fall at either end of the spectrum. PS is a solid example of that. How could we avoid heated arguments over the most important election of many of our lives?

I've posted here and there on ATW, but for the most part, I've stayed away, because I was getting too angry at what I was reading. There are plenty of other arenas on PS to enjoy. (When I want to get angry, I yell at the newspaper)

*ok, going back to Colored Stones now*

 

[purrfectpear]

Date: 11/9/2008 12:08:05 PM
Author: coatimundi

Date: 11/9/2008 1:46:19 AM
Author: decodelighted
I am fervently intolerant of intolerance!!!!

haHA so am I!

These ATW threads are a reflection of our polarized country. Obama won by an overwhelming and incredible margin, but McCain got plenty of votes. There are more than two types of voters in the US, but the majority fall at either end of the spectrum. PS is a solid example of that. How could we avoid heated arguments over the most important election of many of our lives?

I''ve posted here and there on ATW, but for the most part, I''ve stayed away, because I was getting too angry at what I was reading. There are plenty of other arenas on PS to enjoy. (When I want to get angry, I yell at the newspaper)

*ok, going back to Colored Stones now*

Poor newspaper. Trees died and spotted owls are homeless, and now you yell at it

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 11/9/2008 12:20:13 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Poor newspaper. Trees died and spotted owls are homeless, and now you yell at it

I'm the meanest liberal you'll ever meet.

*why hug trees when you can berate them?*

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/9/2008 11:26:18 AM
Author: gwendolyn

Copying only part of someone's post

Wasn't going to dignify the rest of the hogwash with a quote is why I cut it off.
Anyone who doesn't tow the liberal line gets attacked here that's a fact.
And some of the worst of the offenders are posting in this thread.
On occasion if I'm bored I might fire back :}
And as a matter of fact my local liberal rag paper did print a letter to the editor where someone was complaining about having to go to a church to vote...
Wasn't the first time wont be the last.

 

[iluvcarats]

My opinion of ATW is that it can exist. I just don''t have to participate in it. The problem with it for me , is that it takes the pleasure out of PS simply because I find that it will taint my view of some of the members, who I like and enjoy in all the other forums. I understand that this is my own form of bigotry. I just can''t understand if we all belong to the human race how we are all not equal? Religion always has been and always will be a hot button topic. How can you argue about something that is based in blind faith? It is the core of what one believes. I think it was Miracles who stated very eloquently that religion is divisive, and I agree. I have some form of my own faith, but in a very non-traditional way. I realize that my views are not popular and may be offensive, so I try not to share them too often simply because I respect the PS community, and whatever one chooses to, or not to, believe. When it was suggested to me that "some may look at bringing jews to Christ as an act of kindness" (paraphrased as I forget the actual wording, but that is the basic idea) well, I checked out of ATW quicker than as if I was in a cock roach infested Motel 6. Because arguments like that on line are an exercise in futility. I am not going to convince that person that what they believe might not be true, because they are cetain that it is. And they are not going to convince me to sway either. And it was an eye opener for me because it made me realize to be more careful in what I say, because even though I don''t believe the way most do, I don''t think that *they* shouldn'' belive it, and I respect their choice and don''t want to be insulting. However, I do take issue with others thinking *everyone* should believe like they do. And I don''t like when the lines between religion and politics become blurred. But I do not think that I am superior to anyone, or that anyone is inferior to me. Or that I deserve more or less human rights than anyone else. We are all human beings capable of bringing goodness to the world, no matter what religion, color, or sexual orientation.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 11/9/2008 12:30:40 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/9/2008 11:26:18 AM

Author: gwendolyn

Copying only part of someone''s post

Wasn''t going to dignify the rest of the hogwash with a quote is why I cut it off.

Well, it makes you look dishonest, like you can''t handle responding to the rest of the quote. By the same logic, you clearly think the rest of my post was "hogwash," when in fact I am quite interested to hear your arguments against what I wrote.

Anyone who doesn''t tow the liberal line gets attacked here that''s a fact.

And some of the worst of the offenders are posting in this thread.

On occasion if I''m bored I might fire back :}

Fact? That''s a strong claim from someone who has yet to provide any links to any proof of such "attacks." Do you have proof?

And as a matter of fact my local liberal rag paper did print a letter to the editor where someone was complaining about having to go to a church to vote...

Wasn''t the first time wont be the last.

That''s funny, because your original quote said nothing like that at all, other than your "shock" at how "the atheists" haven''t sued. Here''s what you wrote in the "Where Do You Vote?" thread:

A church

I''m shocked the atheists haven''t sued yet for having to go to a church to vote.

Link to the thread in question found here, about halfway down the page.

That was an "attack" on atheists, out of nowhere. If you don''t want anyone to jump on *your* case with no reason regarding your beliefs, it seems advisable to not do the same to others. Wouldn''t you say?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/9/2008 12:57:11 PM
Author: gwendolyn
By the same logic,

actually I cut off your quote just to get ya goat and it worked. *grin*

You have no clue what my beliefs are so rather than explain em to ya I will let ya wonder :}

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 11/9/2008 1:19:32 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/9/2008 12:57:11 PM

Author: gwendolyn

By the same logic,


actually I cut off your quote just to get ya goat and it worked. *grin*

You have no clue what my beliefs are so rather than explain em to ya I will let ya wonder :}

I don''t wonder. Not to be rude, but I also don''t care; it''s non of my business what you believe or don''t believe. What I don''t like is you explicit hypocrisy and trolling. You expect sympathy for these alleged "attacks" you can''t be bothered to address when given the opportunity, and then laugh at me when I voice the same exact concerns about specific examples you have posted? You claim "facts" yet have no proof? What is the point behind your posts? Do you continue because it''s a big laugh when it isn''t aimed at your values, but then you cry wolf when it is? You are no victim.

Obviously you are not interested in intelligent discussion about this, so I am finished.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 11/9/2008 1:38:08 PM
Author: gwendolyn

Date: 11/9/2008 1:19:32 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/9/2008 12:57:11 PM


Author: gwendolyn


By the same logic,



actually I cut off your quote just to get ya goat and it worked. *grin*

You have no clue what my beliefs are so rather than explain em to ya I will let ya wonder :}

I don''t wonder. Not to be rude, but I also don''t care; it''s non of my business what you believe or don''t believe. What I don''t like is you explicit hypocrisy and trolling. You expect sympathy for these alleged ''attacks'' you can''t be bothered to address when given the opportunity, and then laugh at me when I voice the same exact concerns about specific examples you have posted? You claim ''facts'' yet have no proof? What is the point behind your posts? Do you continue because it''s a big laugh when it isn''t aimed at your values, but then you cry wolf when it is? You are no victim.


Obviously you are not interested in intelligent discussion about this, so I am finished.

Once again,