Getting Started (learning, researching, selecting)

[Jopp]

I''ve started off on my quest to find the perfect ring. I''ve read most of Cuellar''s guide to learn the basics. Since then I''ve come to understand that the "sister" company is probably not the best option for actually purchasing the stone. They have sent me detail on a sample stone which appears to be overpriced given its shortcomings. I''ve also looked into a similar stone (ring actually) offered by Costco. The two example aren''t necessarily candidates, I just wanted to share it with you, because it is in my "ballpark" (Round, 2.0, VS1, F).

I welcome your suggestions, thoughts, and direction for education, research, and finally selection!
Best,
Jeff

FullyBondedDiamonds
Center: Round
Carat Weight: 1.96
Calrity: VS1
Color: G
Table: 56%
Total Depth: 59.8%
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Good
Girdle: Thin to Medium (1.1 - 1.3)
Fluorescence: Faint
Culet: 0.3%
Price Offered: $30,887

Costco (ring setting = Tiffany Style 6 prong)
Center: Round
Carat Weight: 2.20
Calrity: VS1
Color: F
Table: 56%
Total Depth: 60.2%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Thin to Medium F
Fluorescence: None
Culet: None
Price Offered: $34,999

 

[belle]

hey jopp

welcome to ps!
you will find more helpful information here than could ever be available in a book

start with the knowledge tutorial here
you can get an idea of pricing by using the ''pricescope your diamond'' feature at the top of the page.
to narrow your selection, use the ''cut quality search'' button or the one for ''in-house''
i''m sure you will find something really good and at a great price.
best of luck to you!

 

[JohnQuixote]

Echoing Belle''s welcome...

If you''d like some sight-unseen analysis by experts and enthusiasts here, this thread has a good list of information to gather that will help us help you.

 

[Jopp]

Thank you to everyone for the welcome and responses.

I've worked my way through the tutorial that belle suggested and picked up some new background.
Thanks to JohnQuixote for the thread on pertinant details. I will include those going forward when talking about any stone. It also helps to understand what I can't really evaluate (e.g. the Costco ring without seeing the GIA cert).

It seems that the best ways to evaluate a stone is using the GIA Facetware Cut Estimator and/or the Holloway Cut Adviser. I noticed that the HCA doesn't take symmetry (and other proprties) in to consideration. Does that mean that GIA's tools is more comprehensive? Are those the best tools for evaluating diamonds initially? What else should I consider at this stage?

Also, being new to all of this, I feel I need some "face time" with some diamonds to translate these technical descriptions into real experiences (e.g. seeing the difference between a F and G, cut, and size differences, etc.). Can anyone suggest a shop/broker in the Los Angeles (Pasadena actually) where I can get my hands dirty? The local jewelry search suggested Adiamor, but they only have a manufacturing facility in Los Angeles. Any ideas?

Many thanks for all your help!
Jeff

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 12/7/2005 8:13:43 PM
Author: Jopp
Thank you to everyone for the welcome and responses.

I've worked my way through the tutorial that belle suggested and picked up some new background.
Thanks to JohnQuixote for the thread on pertinant details. I will include those going forward when talking about any stone. It also helps to understand what I can't really evaluate (e.g. the Costco ring without seeing the GIA cert).

It seems that the best ways to evaluate a stone is using the GIA Facetware Cut Estimator and/or the Holloway Cut Adviser. I noticed that the HCA doesn't take symmetry (and other proprties) in to consideration. Does that mean that GIA's tools is more comprehensive? Are those the best tools for evaluating diamonds initially? What else should I consider at this stage?

There are two widely accepted ways to evaluate a diamond.

Proportions assessment takes the outer measurements and applies known science to predict performance. If you have the measurements and finish details from Matatora's page you can (1) compare them to known performance charts like the traditional ideal proportions, though diamonds cut to the outer limits of that range are no longer receiving top marks (2) plug the numbers into a computer estimator like Facetware or the HCA. Neither of those approaches takes optical symmetry into account (optical symmetry is different than the lab-graded symmetry that appears on the report). Of the two, HCA is somewhat more proven, and does not round numbers up or down like Facetware does. Facetware does take minor facets into account, so it doesn't hurt to run them both (3) Post all of the numbers here and the experts and enthusiasts will give you plenty of observations.

Performance asessment takes a look at the actual diamond's light return. Ideal-scope is the most popular method of online performance assessment, and many of the PS vendors carry ideal-scope photographs for every diamond in stock. Here is the IS reference chart.

The GIA's new cut grading system is based on proportions. The AGS' cut grading system is based on performance.

Proportions and performance are the most proven approaches to assessment, and most online vendors' products are fully supported by one or both of these approaches. You may find other options as well. Machines have been developed to assess diamond performance (Brilliancescope, Imagem and Isee2 are the best known in these parts). You get differing results depending on the company that designed the machine, but they all measure 'something,' and the reports they provide are user-friendly. They take a backseat to the more proven methods above, but give interesting information that can verify whether a diamond is a top performer or not.

For internet purchase the basic process involves gathering links to online grading reports, acquiring all applicable numbers (including crown and pavilion angles), a magnified photo and an ideal-scope image if possible. Run the numbers through the HCA/Facetware and post the images for comments. If there is further information possible from the vendor you'll get input if you provide that info as well.

In addition to vendors on PS there are also a number of professional independent appraisers who make a living by authenticating the pedigree of your purchase Many people who buy online elect to have a full appraisal done for security and insurance purposes, since the cost is typically a small distance to go beyond the purchase price of a diamond.

Date: 12/7/2005 8:13:43 PM
Author: Jopp

Also, being new to all of this, I feel I need some 'face time' with some diamonds to translate these technical descriptions into real experiences (e.g. seeing the difference between a F and G, cut, and size differences, etc.). Can anyone suggest a shop/broker in the Los Angeles (Pasadena actually) where I can get my hands dirty? The local jewelry search suggested Adiamor, but they only have a manufacturing facility in Los Angeles. Any ideas?

Many thanks for all your help!
Jeff

Very wise move. Some people will come to PS and agonize over whether to get a G or a (gasp!) H... And it turns out that person has not even gone and compared them 'live.'

You can go anywhere, really, to get a handle on the big picture, but to find premium cuts like the standard fare around here in a 'live' situation you may have to do some homework. The simplest way to see diamonds of high pedigree would be to find a dealer in your area that carries AGS diamonds with a selection of Ideal cuts. Going a bit further, you could seek out some superideal cuts (Hearts & Arrows level of cut precision) in the LA area, but you' will need to find a stout brand, as there are no 'official' standards for H&A (more about that in this thread).

Speaking of apples to apples, if you are trying to get a handle on color and clarity 'live,' be sure you are looking at GIA or AGS graded diamonds. Some labs, particularly those used by common chains, grade somewhat softer - so you may be looking at a diamond advertised as an F that would actually be a G or H if graded by AGS/GIA standards. Same thing with clarity. In the wilderness it's possible to find eye-visible inclusions in diamonds that have been given VS by a soft lab, but in an AGS/GIA diamond it is unlikely you will see inclusions in VS diamonds, and many SI graded diamonds can be eye-clean as well.

You caught me in stream-of-consciousness mode, so this may be a lot to digest.

If you stick around you'll get a lot of input. Welcome to PS.

 

[Jopp]

John,
Thanks for an enlightening writeup of the metrics. I found your definition of the two categories to be extremely useful in rounding out the evaluation process conceptually.

Everyone,
I've now found myself questioning some of my original assumptions. It seems that there is an obvious plateau in the prices of diamonds around 1.7 carats and 2.0 carats (assuming similar cut, clarity, and color - Ideal/Excellent, VS1, F-G in my case).

2.0 carats means $30K
1.7 carats means $22K

Oddly nothing (or very little) seems to fall in between these two categories (an 8K price difference!). Is that the case in your experience? Why?

I'm wondering if going over 2.0 carats is simply too much. My GF has small hands and I'm not sure that I want to put something too big on her finger. I know she is not hung up on a specific size, so 2.0 isn't a magic number. I do want to make sure I knock her socks off!

I'll be posting some specifics when I narrow down my choice to a single category. In the meantime, I welcome your thoughts comparing these two categories of stones.

Based on my reading, I don't want to sacrifice the quality of the cut. Should I strongly consider stones of color G (how different is it really from F) and VS2 (instead of my assumed VS1)?


Many thanks,
Jeff

 

[Kim N]

Date: 12/15/2005 3:24:04 PM
Author: Jopp

Based on my reading, I don''t want to sacrifice the quality of the cut. Should I strongly consider stones of color G (how different is it really from F) and VS2 (instead of my assumed VS1)?

Yes, I would recommend you strongly consider G and VS2. Most people cannot tell a difference between one color grade. Face up, there will likely be no difference whatsoever, and even pavilion up it will be very difficult to tell the difference. As for clarity, most VS2 are completely eye-clean. Even SI1 and SI2 can be eye-clean. I wouldn''t pay for a VS1 because I don''t want to pay extra for a difference in clarity that I can''t see. If you go with a VS2/SI1/SI2, you can get a bigger stone for your money, or you can save some money.

 

[belle]

Date: 12/15/2005 3:24:04 PM
Author: Jopp

2.0 carats means $30K
1.7 carats means $22K

Oddly nothing (or very little) seems to fall in between these two categories (an 8K price difference!). Is that the case in your experience? Why?

rough is more limited in these sizes. you will not have near the selection in the 2ct range that you will have in the 1ct. range.

I''m wondering if going over 2.0 carats is simply too much. My GF has small hands and I''m not sure that I want to put something too big on her finger. I know she is not hung up on a specific size, so 2.0 isn''t a magic number. I do want to make sure I knock her socks off!

focus on getting a really well cut stone and you will knock her socks off...guaranteed.

I''ll be posting some specifics when I narrow down my choice to a single category. In the meantime, I welcome your thoughts comparing these two categories of stones.

there is maybe .4mm difference between these two sizes. only you can decide if the $$ difference is worth it. make sure when you are looking at stones that you don''t just look at carat weight, but also mm dimensions.

Based on my reading, I don''t want to sacrifice the quality of the cut. Should I strongly consider stones of color G (how different is it really from F) and VS2 (instead of my assumed VS1)?

definitely look at g color stones...you will not see the difference between ''f'' and ''g'' in a well cut stone. vs clarity will guarantee an eye-clean stone..but you will pay for it. i would suggest looking at si stones too. the grading plots may look messy, but there are eye-clean si stones out there for sure.

 

[Lynn B]

Welcome!

Well, I''ve said it before and I''ll say it again

I LOVE (carefully chosen, ideal cut) lower color/lower clarity diamonds. My first diamond was an AGS-0 1.53 G/VS2. I was a newbie and this was a "comfort/safety zone" for me. The diamond was glorious, very white, and completely eye-clean, even under a loupe. But I continued my diamond education (here on PS) while at the same time, Diamond Shrinkage Syndrome (DSS) started to set in, too. I later upgraded to a KILLER AGS-0 2.36 J/SI2 for VERY LITTLE extra $$$ ... and man, I have NEVER LOOKED BACK!

It faces up VERY WHITE, and is completely eye-clean, even under close-up scruntiny. (Under a loupe I can make out a few tiny white wisps - big deal!) I love that I am not paying for what "cannot be seen"!

To me, these types of diamonds represent the very best value. You can save a ton of money that can be put toward SIZE

or a setting, or a honeymoon, or a house!

Just my humble 2 cents.

BTW, here''s a photo of the G/VS2 side-by-side with the J/SI2.

 

[Jopp]

A few stones I've been reviewing/considering. I welcome your thoughts!
Please click on the links for additional info (LightScope, BrillianceScope, and other images)

Stone #1 - H&A
Weight: 1.72
Color: F
Clarity: VS1
Depth: 60.4%
Table: 57.4%
Crown Angle: 34.3
Pavilion Angle: 40.8
Girdle: 1.0-1.5
Culet: 0.2%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 7.77-7.80 x 4.71
Laboratory: GIA
Price: $21,587
Link

Stone #2 - H&A
Weight: 1.73
Color: G
Clarity: VS1
Depth: 60.7%
Table: 55.0%
Crown Angle: 34.8
Pavilion Angle: 40.8
Girdle: 0.9-1.2
Culet: 0.3%
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Fluorescence: Negligible
Measurements: 7.80-7.82 X 4.74
Laboratory: AGS
Price: $22,000
Link

Stone #3
Weight: 2.01
Color: G
Clarity: VS2
Depth: 60.5%
Table: 57.1%
Crown Angle: 33.9
Pavilion Angle: 40.8
Girdle: 1.2-1.8
Culet: 0.5%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 8.14-8.20 X 4.94
Laboratory: GIA
Price: $24,725
Link

Stone #4 - H&A (Added - been leaning away from VVS, but I thought it was worth a look)
Weight: 1.86
Color: G
Clarity: VVS1
Depth: 61.6%
Table: 56.6%
Crown Angle: 34.7
Pavilion Angle: 40.8
Girdle: 1.6-2.3
Culet: 0.3%
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 7.90-7.93 x 4.87
Laboratory: GIA
Price: $23,515
Link

 

[valeria101]

Picking up the line about size and prices etc.


2 cts D-SI1 sounds better - at 23k, it gets into the range for everything else, as much as I can tell.


LINK

Since it is a lucky SI1... and you have already considered VS2... cut, size and color turned this in as the nicest choice for the budget between the sellers you have mentioned (GOG and WF).

My 2c


Among the tree you lined up, the second (1.7G) goes off the list first IMO, because the F looks at least as good in every way for about the same cost. The 2 carat G would probably show a little larger - I don't think the color difference would be very apparent. All three are top cut, if there is any difference between them, it would be of 'personality' rather than downright quality, IMO.

 

[Jopp]

Update - I added stone #4. See 2 messages up. Thanks!

valeria101 - What did you mean by "lucky" in the case you mentioned?

 

[valeria101]

Date: 12/18/2005 7:52:40 AM
Author: Jopp



valeria101 - What did you mean by 'lucky' in the case you mentioned?

Clean. Closer to VS2 than SI2...




Update - I added stone #4. See 2 messages up.

between that and the 2 cts G-VS... 'guess the G-VS wins. With the same color and both perfectly eye clean, if anything would show different between the two is size, and even that is not all that much different. Just enough to tilt the balance, IMO.

 

[Jopp]

I''m not sure if you noticed, but Stone #3 was not labelled as Hearts and Arrows. Doesn''t that mean that its cut is of a lesser quality relative to the others? More typically, stones in the G, VS1/2, 2.0 carat category are about $30K based on a simple search, so I figure that its lower price was best explained by cut (at the top of my list of course based on what I have learned here!).

Oh, I should also mention that I''m not in a terrible hurrry (e.g. Christmas). Will there be more options out there if I wait until after the holidays?

In any case, I''m still trying to narrow down my sweet spot so I appreciate all your help!
Please keep the feedback coming! Belle? John?

 

[Kaleigh]

Stone #3 must have just missed the H&A title. But looks like a great stone to me. ES offers stones that are very well cut and are a great value. Good luck!!

 

[belle]

the absence of the h&a label does not in itself imply an inferior stone. there are many beautiful diamonds that don''t display a perfect pattern. as long as the angles and proportions compliment eachother, you can still have a real firecracker.

not being in a hurry is always a good thing.

unfortunately, i don''t think there will be *more* stones in your range after the holidays..just different ones. the benefit of time would be that if you have a certain range of specs in mind, you can hold out until you find exactly (or close to) what you are looking for.

 

[Jopp]

Thanks kaleigh and belle for the thoughts!
As I zero in on a selection (or at least a definition of what I want), the stress level increases!

I take it that any of the above (including #3) is going to be a superior stone?

Or, put another way, what isn''t quite right about any or all of these stones that I might hope to find in a better option (assuming that I stick to VS1 or VS2, F or G, and 1-7 to 2.1)

 

[belle]

Date: 12/18/2005 10:59:30 PM
Author: Jopp
Thanks kaleigh and belle for the thoughts!
As I zero in on a selection (or at least a definition of what I want), the stress level increases!

you''re welcome

it does get tough once you get nearer decision time!...i feel your pain
don''t worry though jopp..you have some fine stones to choose from and you would not be displeased with any of them...including #3

all are cut better than 95% of the diamonds out there. you would be hard pressed to find anything better. at this level there are very subtle differences in ''personality'', but no one can tell you that one is better than another. it is just a matter of your preferences and priorities. best of luck choosing and try not to let it stress you too much.

 

[Kim N]

Jopp, I personally like the F/VS1 and G/VS1 the best, with a slight preference for the G/VS1. Let us know what you decide!

 

[Jopp]

Well, I'm back after a short vacation and the holidays.
I'm working with a local jeweler now too who offered up this candidate:

HCA Score: 1.4
Weight: 1.81
Color: F
Clarity: VS2
Depth: 61.1%
Table: 56.3%
Crown Angle: 34.3
Pavilion Angle: 40.9
Girdle: 1.0-1.8
Culet: 0.5%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 7.86-7.90 x 4.82
Laboratory: GIA
Price: $19,900

I have yet to see the stone, but I'm strongly considering this as a final candidate. Thanks very much for all thoughts and feedback!
Jeff

 

[Jopp]

Shameless bump....anyone?

 

[Hest88]

I think it looks lovely, and the price isn''t bad either.