Willful ignorance and judgement

[Daisys and Diamonds]

@Daisys and Diamonds that is heartbreaking, im so sorry.
Yes the people around me are way too cavalier and it is extremely stressful.

I think other people definatly add to our stress
We have dropped back down to alert level 1 which means most things are nornal except the boarder and the director general of health recommends masks on pubic transport
Our neighbourhod supernarket has narrow isles and they still ask the shoppers to social distance
So like sometimes i get lucky and i go at a quiet time just to get milk or bread or cat biscuits and there will only be one other person in shopping
So why does that person need to be right up in my personal space literly shopping around my ankles
go buy a #@#%@ ice cream or something !
Shopping makes me feel incredibly stressed
i honestly don't know how some of you are managing in places where covid is much more wide spread

 

[Ally T]

No worries It's a bit of a slog reading legislation! lol

This part is the key part:

"5.—(1) No person may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1)—

(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in regulation 6 applies;

..."

The fact it uses the word 'include' makes it clear that the list is not exhaustive - so there are other reasons one can leave the house.

You may have other reasons, you may not but the legislation does not limit 'reasonable excuses' to only those in the list


How far away is your child, BTW? I would find it personally hard to be separated from family for that length of time, especially if all parties were fit and well and at low risk, but I appreciate that we all have our own personal risk tolerance.

@Austina 's son is in the US. So, ya know.... not local.

My in-laws are in Somerset & we are in Cheshire. All fit, healthy & well. But we will NOT be breaking any guidance just to see each other, despite not having seen each other since Christmas. The infection rate in their area is practically zero & in my area it is high. My MIL runs at least 5 marathons all around the world every year (until 2020) but she is 75. Regardless of how 'low risk' we all might think she is... nope. Nope.

 

[kenny]

I have a lot of people in my life who are choosing to stay uninformed about this virus. They get together in parties where they have their children and pregnant family members present. They rarely wear masks. They haven’t changed their lives at all when it comes to this pandemic. Most frustrating of all, they treat me like I’m crazy for staying inside, staying informed, and staying safe. They belittle me in passive aggressive ways and to be honest, it makes me very, very angry. I get angry because they will most likely get very sick because they have preexisting conditions. I also get angry because they are treating me like I’m the one with a problem when I’m not. Is anyone else dealing with this dynamic with the people they care about?

I feel that I’m dealing with enough in this pandemic. I wish I didn’t have to deal with these feelings too.

Get those people out of your life, even if they are family.
Period.

Block them on social media, email, phone and before answering your door ask who it is.
You do not owe them an explanation.

When your life is being threatened all that "be nice" crap is stupid.
When a marriage gets bad enough, you just get out.
What they are doing is worse.

 

[LLJsmom]

Get those people out of your life, even if they are family.
Period.

Block them on social media, email, phone and before answering your door ask who it is.
You do not owe them an explanation.

When your life is being threatened all that "be nice" crap is stupid.
When a marriage gets bad enough, you just get out.
What they are doing is worse.

It may sound harsh but unconsciously I think I have done exactly this. I have stopped corresponding with family and family friends who argue about the safety precautions we take, who criticize and berate other people who wear masks, who debate about how deadly the virus "actually" is. It takes too much out of me emotionally and mentally, and leaves me sad and hopeless. I know personally people that have died and suffered from covid-19, so this is real for me. I wish this was a safe place to vent and share concerns with people who understand.

 

[Matata]

Is anyone else dealing with this dynamic with the people they care about?

No. Because if I can't exclude them completely from my life, I limit contact in any form to nearly zero. Willful ignorance is a hot button for me and I don't tolerate/enable anyone in my personal life who is willfully ignorant. There's no way to balance the duality of emotional investment in someone with lack of respect that won't have a detrimental effect on one or both parties.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

I keep thinking back to late March
A family desided to go ahead with their big wedding involving a lot of travel
Back then we didn't know what we now know - or rather now we have no excuse for ignorance
One of the guests was airline cabin crew and he unknown to him had covid
the staff had the venue provided hand sanatizer and advised social distancing (i do not think any of the staff contracted it) but saddly it became our biggest cluster excluding the recent Auckland outbreak
after the wedding guests returned home taking the vurus with them
I think it was the grooms dad who died (or was it the bride's dad ?)

Nobody in that family is ever going to have haopy memories from that wedding

You want a big boozy party or a mum or dad, grandpa or grandma ?

We all need to do what ever it takes to protect our loved ones and if that means we can only communicate by phone or zoom or skyp or email we should count ourselves lucky to be living in the modern age that we have easy acess to these things

i do love the idea of kissing through the window pain

We will get through this but we all have to be more mindful of others for the sake of their health

 

[House Cat]

In full disclosure and vulnerability, I don’t have many friends. I fear loneliness if I cut these people out of my life.

 

[kenny]

It may sound harsh ...

Harsh smarsh.
They are playing russian roulette with your life ... that's 10 times as harsh.

 

[MissGotRocks]

In full disclosure and vulnerability, I don’t have many friends. I fear loneliness if I cut these people out of my life.

You have to be true to yourself and your family. I would not think twice about trying to justify your thoughts on the matter. True friends don't belittle - even if they don't completely understand your point of view. You will be able to meet and befriend other people when the world finally opens up again. You probably are feeling isolated and lonely at this point but some friends and family can simply be toxic to your well being. Don't let them threaten your self worth or decision making - you do you and be confident doing it.

 

[Yelena]

In full disclosure and vulnerability, I don’t have many friends. I fear loneliness if I cut these people out of my life.

I understand. It’s a tough call. Maybe a full cut off is too drastic, but distancing a bit as you seek out new connections with people who are more aligned with your values might work better. You are probably also grieving for the fact that these people are not who you thought they were. They have disrespected your views, your safety and made comments that showed that to you. You will never feel fully comfortable with them in future because you can’t un know what you know now.

 

[Tekate]

Thank you @OoohShiny I’ve read the the list of ‘reasonable excuses’ and the only 2 that apply to me personally are going out shopping and going out to exercise. I don’t have a ‘bubble’ as it’s just OH and I, I don’t have any relatives in hospital (thankfully), or intend to visit anyone in prison, or go to a support group, so my observations are based purely on how it affects me.

I may be over 60, but I’d rather have many more years in good health, than live my life for the next 6 months with a ‘what the hell’ attitude. I haven’t seen my only child since December 29th, nor am I likely to for several months, but in the meantime, I’m going to do whatever I have to, to ensure that when we are able to travel, we can visit him.

Oh @Austina hugs hugs hugs to you and your husband.. I haven't seen my younger son since December 29th, 2019 either! like you I'm sure, we Duo/Zoom/Facetime whatever one uses every 3 days or so, he works from home so he's often isolated for days at a time, it hurts me, I know you miss your son too. So we wait and wait, but there are no guarantees our sons and family members will breeze through covid19 infections, they would probably breeze through, we probably would be fine if we travelled, but maybe not.. I love my son too much to fly and maybe pass covid19 on to him.. hugs to you mom from this mom. xo

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

In full disclosure and vulnerability, I don’t have many friends. I fear loneliness if I cut these people out of my life.

I totally get this
Are there some in this group who could be more accommodating to your safety
(In 2 years living in our new town the only friend we have made is our formally stray cat Tibby)

 

[Yelena]

I totally get this
Are there some in this group who could be more accommodating to your safety
(In 2 years living in our new town the only friend we have made is our formally stray cat Tibby)

Gosh Daisys, that’s hard even though I am sure that Tibby is thoroughly lovely. Do you think it’s a ‘small town thing’ to not be particularly welcoming of newcomers or do you think it has more to do with people leading very busy lives?

It makes sense that it can be hard to make friends if your life circumstances aren’t bumping you into the same group of people all the time.

 

[Matata]

In full disclosure and vulnerability, I don’t have many friends. I fear loneliness if I cut these people out of my life.

So you either risk loneliness or continue to let them make you feel angry, to belittle you, to treat you like you're crazy and that you're the problem. The choice is yours.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

In full disclosure and vulnerability, I don’t have many friends. I fear loneliness if I cut these people out of my life.

True friends would not try to push their values on you and make you feel uncomfortable. They may not subscribe to your thinking but they should leave you well alone to do what you're comfortable with. And I say this as someone who is actually a risk taker (I'm sure that's obvious by now).

Could you have an honest conversation with these people? Ask them to respect your lack of appetite for risk. If they can do this maybe they're worth keeping but if they can't even do that you can then reassess.

 

[chemgirl]

May I ask what your opinion would be if they have read up thoroughly on the various elements of the subject and have determined that their current approach is suitable?

And, similarly, if those people who are at elevated risk have actively chosen to exercise what agency they have (while they still have it) to lead their life to the fullest while they can?

You’re making it sound like high risk people are all terminally ill. That’s not the case. A friend in his 40’s with well managed type 1 diabetes passed away. He could have lived a normal life if it wasn’t for covid. Many high risk individuals are simply overweight or have hypertension. They may not be in tip top shape, but hardly knocking on death’s door.

Please stop minimizing deaths. These are people who were loved.

 

[Polabowla]

@House Cat I am sorry that is a very hard choice.

 

[Karl_K]

You’re making it sound like high risk people are all terminally ill. That’s not the case. A friend in his 40’s with well managed type 1 diabetes passed away. He could have lived a normal life if it wasn’t for covid. Many high risk individuals are simply overweight or have hypertension. They may not be in tip top shape, but hardly knocking on death’s door.

Please stop minimizing deaths. These are people who were loved.

Someone I knows sisters husband.
Dad of 3 young children, husband, son, uncle, in his 40s with no known illnesses and in good shape. Went back to work and a coworker who was out partying all the time had it unknowingly and was in the same room with him for just a few min. 15max.
7 days from diagnosis until death from covid.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Gary's daughter has cancer - she had beaten a really aggressive breast cancer a few years ago but its come back in her liver and spin
she had chemo durring our lockdown

There is no way we would visit her, coming from another city with the risk of giving her covid

we have next to no covid here but there is a new case of community transmission up north - a nurse working in a quarereen hotel

This nurse went shoping while symptomatic

We are not prepared to take the risk
Also Gary has several risk factors and i have asthma so we just keep to ourselves

You just have to do what ever you have to do to keep ourself and one's loved ones as safe as we can

yes we miss Melanie, she is holding her own most days, going to work, looking after her family
some days not so good
But just imangine if we somehow picked up covid and gave it to her and robbed her children and her husband of what ever time they all have left to spend together ?
She knows her father loves her even though we stay away

Hugs @Daisys and Diamonds and buckets of healing dust to Melanie ❤

 

[MakingTheGrade]

If it’s any consolation, scientists and physicians are on your side so you’re certainly not crazy.

I do think some choices like safely distanced outdoor dining with temperature checks and masks when not at table etc can be reasonable decisions for individuals who feel comfortable doing so and do it responsibly. Part of doing it responsibly though is recognizing that it’s still a non zero risk, and still engaging in all the recommended safety measures and informing people in your “bubble” that this is something you’re doing so that they can decide if they’re comfortable with that. It’s not responsible to do it because “covids not real and everyone is over reacting”.

People who really struggle with social isolation (and I understand that there are various mental and physical health reasons why being confined solo to a house could be as deadly as a virus) have often taken the approach of having a defined bubble of people they trust to be strict about it. I have friends who have a bubble of 6-10 people who are all work from home and all don’t socialize with others. Sadly I haven’t seen any of them since spring since I myself have a higher risk profile due being in frontline healthcare. (Silver lining is I get routinely covid tested every other week).

I can’t think of any reason to be throwing parties during pandemic though. My opinion is be grateful you have something to celebrate, but the mass gathering can wait or be virtual. Even outdoor parties become high risk if there’s food/drinks and music involved as people need to unmask to eat and then often talk loudly/stand close if they need to be heard over music or outside noise. Which means lots of potential fluid droplet transmission.

 

[Austina]

As @Alex T says @OoohShiny my son is 5000 miles away in Texas. They have been even more careful than us, they haven’t physically been out shopping since March, they, fortunately, have had no problems getting home deliveries of food. They have only very recently seen future DIL’s family, and that has been outside, masked and socially distancing. Even though they are young and fit, they’re not prepared to take the risk of getting ill or spreading it.

DS had a dental appt recently, and when he got back, he wore a mask in the house and slept in a different room for a week to ensure that he hadn’t picked up anything and brought it back.

As @Bayek says, we’re not the only ones in this situation, but our own health, the health of our family and others are more important to us than worrying about our civil liberties.

 

[missy]

@House Cat yes, same here. There are a number of people I know who are not taking (IMO) the necessary precautions to keep themselves and the ones around them safe. Willful ignorance? Or just ignorance? Entitlement? Selfishness? All of the above and then some. Who knows.

I will say you are NOT crazy for feeling this way and for wanting to remain safe. No one who feels this way is crazy. These are valid feelings and real concerns.

All we can control is our behavior and actions.
All we can control is how we feel about the situation.
All we can do is remove ourselves from those who are engaging in risky behavior.
All we can do is take it one day at a time and do what we see fit to remain as safe as we can and hope for the best.

It's a long haul but we will get through this.
Hopefully we will get through this intact.

There is going to be a long recovery ahead financially and otherwise (cannot mention certain issues) but we have no choice but to take it one day at a time. One hour at a time when necessary.

We will get through this.
There is no other choice.

Hang in there everyone.
(((Hugs))).

 

[missy]

50% of the population has below average intelligence.

This is true but even those with below average intelligence are smart enough to know they need to wear a mask. I worked with the Intellectually disabled population for decades and I know my former patients are wearing a mask. They know they are helping others by wearing their masks and they know by doing so they aren't a part of the problem but part of the solution. I am so proud of them. They rock.

 

[missy]

I don't know what more perspective one needs to understand that the health system is overwhelmed FAST due to sheer number of cases.

@kipari, exactly. It comes down to (as far as I see it) pure selfish behavior. Those who refuse to wear a mask don't want to wear the mask. It's not that they don't "get it" because as you point out how can they not understand the healthcare system becoming incredibly overwhelmed again? They underhand. They, IMO, just don't care enough.

 

[missy]

Gary's daughter has cancer - she had beaten a really aggressive breast cancer a few years ago but its come back in her liver and spin
she had chemo durring our lockdown

There is no way we would visit her, coming from another city with the risk of giving her covid

we have next to no covid here but there is a new case of community transmission up north - a nurse working in a quarereen hotel

This nurse went shoping while symptomatic

We are not prepared to take the risk
Also Gary has several risk factors and i have asthma so we just keep to ourselves

You just have to do what ever you have to do to keep ourself and one's loved ones as safe as we can

yes we miss Melanie, she is holding her own most days, going to work, looking after her family
some days not so good
But just imangine if we somehow picked up covid and gave it to her and robbed her children and her husband of what ever time they all have left to spend together ?
She knows her father loves her even though we stay away

Sending you hugs @Daisys and Diamonds and continued healing vibes for Melanie. I am so sorry you guys are in this difficult situation and I hope Melanie is OK and makes a full recovery and that you guys can be reunited soon.

 

[missy]

I believe a person has the right to die whenever they want. I do not believe they have the right to bring others down with them.

This is truly what it comes down to IMO. It's not about the individual rights but about the rights of all those around us.

It comes down to giving a damn.
Those who give a damn about others will wear their mask.
No one finds the mask comfortable.
It's about doing the right thing and keeping our fellow human beings safe.

Give a damn.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Gosh Daisys, that’s hard even though I am sure that Tibby is thoroughly lovely. Do you think it’s a ‘small town thing’ to not be particularly welcoming of newcomers or do you think it has more to do with people leading very busy lives?

It makes sense that it can be hard to make friends if your life circumstances aren’t bumping you into the same group of people all the time.

I think its a combination of me not working and us both being a bit shy
also after living in Wellington some times i think ive forgotten how to be small town freindly
And with Gary's eyes playing up with his Sarcoidosis and now he needs a cataract opp caused by the steroid eye drops we tend to not go far from home
ive always made freinds at work - the good thing about work is isually you have a real mix of ages and backgrounds

Im serously thinking about attending the Catholic church in our suburb just to meet people and im not even Catholic

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

This is truly what it comes down to IMO. It's not about the individual rights but about the rights of all those around us.

It comes down to giving a damn.
Those who give a damn about others will wear their mask.
No one finds the mask comfortable.
It's about doing the right thing and keeping our fellow human beings safe.

Give a damn.

To lighten up this thread a little i just thought this was the prettiest mask
i beleave its made by the poppy factory- the people who make the remembrance day poppies in the UK

 

[missy]

To lighten up this thread a little i just thought this was the prettiest mask
i beleave its made by the poppy factory- the people who make the remembrance day poppies in the UK

Very pretty mask.

Even the animals are wearing them without complaining (too much)

 

[lyra]

The second wave is here and it's a doozy. Stay isolated. If this thing ever blows over, people will get over the fact that you were not outgoing at this time. I keep buying more masks. The Canadian government just said that 3 layer masks are the new minimum.