Willful ignorance and judgement

[House Cat]

I have a lot of people in my life who are choosing to stay uninformed about this virus. They get together in parties where they have their children and pregnant family members present. They rarely wear masks. They haven’t changed their lives at all when it comes to this pandemic. Most frustrating of all, they treat me like I’m crazy for staying inside, staying informed, and staying safe. They belittle me in passive aggressive ways and to be honest, it makes me very, very angry. I get angry because they will most likely get very sick because they have preexisting conditions. I also get angry because they are treating me like I’m the one with a problem when I’m not. Is anyone else dealing with this dynamic with the people they care about?

I feel that I’m dealing with enough in this pandemic. I wish I didn’t have to deal with these feelings too.

 

[Austina]

Not on a personal level @House Cat but we’re in a second lockdown precisely because of that attitude. We have done everything that’s been asked of us, spent 10 weeks indoors from the beginning of the first lockdown in March, only went out when the restrictions were eased, and now because of people who think this is no big deal, we can only go out to shop for food or to exercise. We always wear masks, carry sanitiser, socially distance when we’re out and now we’re stuck inside again for 4 weeks. Who knows whether that’ll make a difference, and we’ll be allowed some freedoms after that.

I totally understand how frustrating it is for you to do everything you can to stay safe and keep others safe, only to be treated like you’re over exaggerating the situation. I just don’t get why people aren’t taking this seriously.

 

[LLJsmom]

Yes, I am. I understand @House Cat . I'm sorry for you and me.

 

[House Cat]

Yes, I am. I understand @House Cat . I'm sorry for you and me.

::::air hug::::

 

[House Cat]

Not on a personal level @House Cat but we’re in a second lockdown precisely because of that attitude. We have done everything that’s been asked of us, spent 10 weeks indoors from the beginning of the first lockdown in March, only went out when the restrictions were eased, and now because of people who think this is no big deal, we can only go out to shop for food or to exercise. We always wear masks, carry sanitiser, socially distance when we’re out and now we’re stuck inside again for 4 weeks. Who knows whether that’ll make a difference, and we’ll be allowed some freedoms after that.

I totally understand how frustrating it is for you to do everything you can to stay safe and keep others safe, only to be treated like you’re over exaggerating the situation. I just don’t get why people aren’t taking this seriously.

I almost envy you for having a lockdown because that means there is some control over the behavior of those who want to stay ignorant.

I really don’t like being treated like I’m crazy when I know that there is a dangerous virus out there. It makes me question myself. Then I do feel crazy.

 

[LLJsmom]

::::air hug::::

Thank you. (((HUG)))

 

[LLJsmom]

I almost envy you for having a lockdown because that means there is some control over the behavior of those who want to stay ignorant.

I really don’t like being treated like I’m crazy when I know that there is a dangerous virus out there. It makes me question myself. Then I do feel crazy.

I know. I was talking to a friend who is also dealing with these feelings. When it gets to the issue of how many have died, and I hear "not most people have covid", I just give up at that point. I guess we'll revisit the issue when we have hit the "enough dead" number, and then we decide if we will do something about this. Hmmmm... I wonder what that will be. 300,000? half a mil? We spend tons of money on various medical research on cancer and diseases but as people are dying, and while things can be done to prevent more deaths, we haven't reached "enough". I'm so exhausted.

 

[OoohShiny]

May I ask what your opinion would be if they have read up thoroughly on the various elements of the subject and have determined that their current approach is suitable?

And, similarly, if those people who are at elevated risk have actively chosen to exercise what agency they have (while they still have it) to lead their life to the fullest while they can?

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Yes, I am, and I understand how you feel.
You're not crazy. You're not alone, either.

 

[House Cat]

May I ask what your opinion would be if they have read up thoroughly on the various elements of the subject and have determined that their current approach is suitable?

And, similarly, if those people who are at elevated risk have actively chosen to exercise what agency they have (while they still have it) to lead their life to the fullest while they can?

They haven’t.

you keep bringing up this point in these threads. The fact is if you are out and about without a mask on and gathering in groups without masks and without social distancing then you are part of the spread. You are literally willing to take people’s lives in your hands.

I don’t respect that-there’s my opinion

and I don’t respect it in my friends either, which really, really hurts.

 

[Kh0117]

My sister is pregnant and had a gender reveal party with 30+ guests a few weeks ago. I didn’t go. I know she’s annoyed. I never really understood gender reveal parties and to have it during a pandemic is so stupid! Pictures were posted on social media and not one person had a mask on and they were all inside because it was raining.

Not only is it so reckless to just go about your days like nothing is wrong but it’s so arrogant and selfish!

 

[marymm]

May I ask what your opinion would be if they have read up thoroughly on the various elements of the subject and have determined that their current approach is suitable?

And, similarly, if those people who are at elevated risk have actively chosen to exercise what agency they have (while they still have it) to lead their life to the fullest while they can?

If their current approach is within the guidelines mandated for their area, so be it.

However, In my own experience, the people who are not wearing masks or practicing physical distancing are actually flouting local and/or state health orders. YMMV.

And, yes, OP, I do find this kind of behaviour inexplicable and maddening.

 

[OoohShiny]

we can only go out to shop for food or to exercise.

This is not quite accurate although I'm sure the BBC would like it to be.

The legislation allows one to be outside of one's home for a 'reasonable excuse', the list of which is non-exhaustive (ref: 5.(2)(a)):

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1200/pdfs/uksi_20201200_en.pdf

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (No. 4) Regulations 2020

These Regulations impose restrictions on the occasions on which a person can leave or be outside of the place where they are living and on gatherings. They also require the closure of a number of businesses, and impose restrictions on businesses.

www.legislation.gov.uk

PART 2 Restrictions on movement

Restrictions on leaving home
5.—(1) No person may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1)—

(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in regulation 6 applies;

(b)the place where a person is living includes the premises where they live together with any garden, yard, passage, stair, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises.

(3) This regulation does not apply to any person who is homeless.

Exceptions: leaving home
6.—(1) These are the exceptions referred to in regulation 5.

Exception 1: leaving home necessary for certain purposes
(2) Exception 1 is that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living (“P’s home”)—

(a)to buy goods or obtain services from any business or service listed in Part 3 of the Schedule, for—

(i)P or for those in the same household,

(ii)vulnerable persons, or

(iii)persons in the same household as a vulnerable person;

(b)to obtain money from or deposit money with any business listed in paragraph 43 or 44 of the Schedule;

(c)to take exercise outside—

(i)alone,

(ii)with—

(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or

(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or

(iii)in a public outdoor place, with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household or their linked childcare household,

and paragraph (3) applies in determining whether a person is complying with the limits in this sub-paragraph;

(d)to visit a public outdoor place for the purposes of open air recreation—

(i)alone,

(ii)with—

(aa)one or more members of their household, their linked household, or

(bb)where exercise is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or

(iii)with one other person who is not a member of their household or their linked household,

and paragraph (3) applies in determining whether a person is complying with the limits in this sub-paragraph;

(e)to attend a place of worship;

(f)to attend an event commemorating Remembrance Sunday or to attend the gathering referred in regulation 11(1(a)(ii);

(g)to undertake any of the following activities in connection with the purchase, sale, letting or rental of a residential property—

(i)visiting estate or letting agents, developer sales offices or show homes;

(ii)viewing residential properties to look for a property to buy or to rent;

(iii)preparing a residential property to move in;

(iv)moving house;

(v)visiting a residential property to undertake any activities required for the rental or sale of that property;

(h)to visit a member of a household which is a linked household in relation to P’s household;

(i)to collect food, drink or other goods which have been ordered from a business, or to access goods or services which are provided, in any way permitted by regulation 17or 18;

(j)to visit a waste disposal or recycling centre.

(3) For the purposes of determining whether a person is complying with the limits in—

(a)paragraph (2)(c)(ii) and (d)(ii), no account is to be taken of any person who is present as a carer for a person with a disability who needs continuous care (a “carer”),

(b)paragraph (2)(c)(iii) and (d)(iii), no account is to be taken of a carer or a child below the age of five,

provided that, in either case, there are no more than two people present in the capacity of carer.

Exception 2: work, voluntary services, education and training etc
(4) Exception 2 is that it is reasonably necessary for P to leave or be outside P’s home—

(a)for the purposes of work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for P to work, or to provide those services, from home;

(b)for the purposes of education or training;

(c)to provide care or assistance, including relevant personal care within the meaning of paragraph 7(3B) of Schedule 4 to the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006(1), to a vulnerable person;

(d)to provide emergency assistance to any person;

(e)to fulfil a legal obligation, including attending court or satisfying bail conditions, or to participate in legal proceedings;

(f)to access critical public services, including—

(i)social services;

(ii)services provided by the Department for Work and Pensions;

(iii)services provided to victims (including victims of crime);

(iv)asylum and immigration services and interviews;

(g)to access services provided by voluntary or charitable services, including food banks.

Exception 3: elite athletes
(5) Exception 3 is that P is an elite sportsperson, a coach of an elite sportsperson, or (in the case of an elite sportsperson who is under the age of 1, a parent of the elite sportsperson, and it is reasonably necessary for P to leave or be outside P’s home for the purposes of training or competition.

Exception 4: medical need etc
(6) Exception 4 is that it is reasonably necessary for P to leave or be outside P’s home—

(a)to seek medical assistance, including to take any medical tests, be vaccinated or access any of the services referred to in paragraph 47 of the Schedule;

(b)to donate blood or attend medical trials;

(c)to avoid injury or illness or to escape a risk of harm;

(d)to attend a person giving birth (“M”) at M’s request;

(e)to visit a person (“V”) receiving treatment in a hospital or staying in a hospice or care home, or to accompany V to a medical appointment and P is—

(i)a member of V’s household,

(ii)a close family member of V, or

(iii)a friend of V.

Exception 5: Support and respite
(7) Exception 5 is that it is reasonably necessary for P to leave or be outside P’s home—

(a)to attend a meeting of a support group which is permitted to meet under regulation 11(6);

(b)for the following purposes—

(i)respite care being provided for a vulnerable person or a person with a disability, or

(ii)a short break being provided in respect of a looked after child (within the meaning of section 22 of the Children Act 1989(2)).

Exception 6: Death bed visit
( Exception 6 is that it is reasonably necessary for P to leave or be outside P’s home to visit a person (“D”) whom P reasonably believes is dying, and P is—

(a)a member of D’s household,

(b)a close family member of D, or

(c)a friend of D.

Exception 7: funerals etc
(9) Exception 7 is that it is reasonably necessary for P to leave or be outside P’s home—

(a)to attend a funeral,

(b)to attend a commemorative event celebrating the life of a person who has died, or

(c)to visit a burial ground or garden of remembrance, to pay respects to a member of P’s household, a family member or friend.

Exception 8: marriages and civil partnerships
(10) Exception 8 is that it is reasonably necessary for P to leave or be outside P’s home to attend a marriage ceremony, a civil partnership ceremony or an alternative wedding ceremony permitted under regulation 11(11).

(11) For the purposes of this exception an “alternative wedding ceremony” is a ceremony based on a person’s faith or belief or lack of belief, to mark the union of two people, other than a ceremony conducted for a purpose mentioned in regulation 11(11)(a)(i) or (ii).

Exception 9: children
(12) Exception 9 is that it is reasonably necessary for P to leave or be outside P’s home—

(a)for the purposes of arrangements for access to, and contact between, parents and a child where the child does not live in the same household as their parents or one of their parents;

(b)for the purposes of arrangements for contact between siblings where they do not live in the same household and one or more of them is—

(i)a child looked after by a local authority, within the meaning of section 22 of the Children Act 1989, or

(ii)a relevant child, within the meaning of section 23A(3) of that Act;

(c)for the purposes of arrangements for prospective adopters (including their household) to meet a child or children who may be placed with the prospective adopters as provided for by an adoption placement plan drawn up in accordance with the Adoption Agencies Regulations 2005(4) (see regulation 35(2) of those Regulations);

(d)to access educational facilities, or to accompany a child to those facilities where P is the parent or has parental responsibility for, or care of, the child in question;

(e)subject to paragraph (13), for the purposes of—

(i)childcare provided by a person registered under Part 3 of the Childcare Act 2006(5);

(ii)supervised activities for children;

(f)for the purposes of informal childcare, for children aged 13 or under, provided by a member of a household to a member of their linked childcare household (see regulation 13).

(13) Paragraph (12)(e) only applies where the childcare is reasonably necessary to enable a parent, or a person who has parental responsibility for, or care of, the child in question, to work, search for work or to undertake training or education.

Exception 10: Animal welfare
(14) Exception 10 is that it is reasonably necessary for P to leave or be outside P’s home—

(a)to attend veterinary services to seek advice about the health and welfare of a pet or other animal owned or cared for by P, or for the treatment of such a pet or animal;

(b)to attend to the care of or exercise of a pet or other animal owned or cared for by P.

Exception 11: Returning home
(15) Exception 11 is that it is reasonably necessary for P to be outside P’s home to enable P to return home from any place where P was on holiday immediately before these Regulations came into force.

Exception 12: Prison visits
(16) Exception 12 is that it is reasonably necessary for P to leave or be outside P’s home to visit a person (“VP”) living in criminal justice accommodation, where P is—

(a)a close family member of VP, or

(b)a friend of VP.

Exception 13: Other visits
(17) Exception 13 is that it is reasonably necessary for P to leave or be outside P’s home for the purposes of a visit permitted under regulation 11(10).

 

[seaurchin]

50% of the population has below average intelligence.

 

[OoohShiny]

They haven’t.

you keep bringing up this point in these threads. The fact is if you are out and about without a mask on and gathering in groups without masks and without social distancing then you are part of the spread. You are literally willing to take people’s lives in your hands.

I don’t respect that-there’s my opinion

and I don’t respect it in my friends either, which really, really hurts.

Thank you for your reply.

WRT the last paragraph in my previous post and putting to one side any discussions around masks for a moment, referring to the more vulnerable going out and about when it might increase their personal risk, do you feel it is something they shouldn't be doing?

My personal view is that the vulnerable should be able to determine their own tolerance to personal risk and carry on life as they see fit - I would rather have six months living life to the full than a year of imprisonment in my own home, as a hypothetical example. I would rather 'live' than merely 'exist'.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

May I ask what your opinion would be if they have read up thoroughly on the various elements of the subject and have determined that their current approach is suitable?

And, similarly, if those people who are at elevated risk have actively chosen to exercise what agency they have (while they still have it) to lead their life to the fullest while they can?

May I ask if they would still like a hospital bed after having lived their life to the fullest while they can? If they do, then, my opinion is, no sorry, no exercising of agency.

If they're OK to slowly die at home alone and not be treated while their lungs fill with jell-o because their extensive reading told them it's a risk they're willing to take I'd still be inclined to say no.
Because a) once that stage sets in people usually change their minds

And b) in the two/three days before the first symptoms they might infect someone else in spite of that other person wearing a mask and trying to distance.

In short. No. No living life to the fullest during a pandemic.




Today in France alone we have 68 young children, 254 high schoolers out of a total of 28 426 patients that are hospitalized with COVID.

4 230 patients in ICU on ventilators due to COVID.

Before COVID this country only had 5432 ICU beds.

I don't know what more perspective one needs to understand that the health system is overwhelmed FAST due to sheer number of cases.

 

[dk168]

The second lockdown is hitting me harder, and I am grumpier than usual.

I am blocking posts and people on FB left, right and centre.

CBA with the attitudes, moans and groans of FTs.

DK

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

I would rather 'live' than merely 'exist'.

You are only asked to not go out for about 2 months...

So you'd rather 'live' for a short period, then get COVID, die at home (because we're all on the same page that as soon as you clog up the NHS it's not about you anymore) alone OR maybe suffer long term issues than stay in the comfort of your home for 8 (ok let's say 16 )weeks and wear a mask when outside?

And, see my post above: it's not about what you want if your hypothetical preference affects the survival chances of OTHERS.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

I have a lot of people in my life who are choosing to stay uninformed about this virus. They get together in parties where they have their children and pregnant family members present. They rarely wear masks. They haven’t changed their lives at all when it comes to this pandemic. Most frustrating of all, they treat me like I’m crazy for staying inside, staying informed, and staying safe. They belittle me in passive aggressive ways and to be honest, it makes me very, very angry. I get angry because they will most likely get very sick because they have preexisting conditions. I also get angry because they are treating me like I’m the one with a problem when I’m not. Is anyone else dealing with this dynamic with the people they care about?

I feel that I’m dealing with enough in this pandemic. I wish I didn’t have to deal with these feelings too.

This is so sad
But your doing the right thing
there are terribly sad stories in the news of people who don't beleave till a loved ones gets infected and dies
I think thing is so big its impossible to do much except keep your own self and your own house hold safe
you just have to some how shut out their stupidity/ negativity and stay in your bubble as best you can

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

::::air hug::::

You are the queen of social distancing

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

May I ask if they would still like a hospital bed after having lived their life to the fullest while they can? If they do, then, my opinion is, no sorry, no exercising of agency.

If they're OK to slowly die at home alone and not be treated while their lungs fill with jell-o because their extensive reading told them it's a risk they're willing to take I'd still be inclined to say no.
Because a) once that stage sets in people usually change their minds

And b) in the two/three days before the first symptoms they might infect someone else in spite of that other person wearing a mask and trying to distance.

In short. No. No living life to the fullest during a pandemic.




Today in France alone we have 68 young children, 254 high schoolers out of a total of 28 426 patients that are hospitalized with COVID.

4 230 patients in ICU on ventilators due to COVID.

Before COVID this country only had 5432 ICU beds.

I don't know what more perspective one needs to understand that the health system is overwhelmed FAST due to sheer number of cases.

We don't get much news from France
I had gathered it was bad but your numbers are heart breaking
stay safe @kipari

 

[Austina]

Thank you @OoohShiny I’ve read the the list of ‘reasonable excuses’ and the only 2 that apply to me personally are going out shopping and going out to exercise. I don’t have a ‘bubble’ as it’s just OH and I, I don’t have any relatives in hospital (thankfully), or intend to visit anyone in prison, or go to a support group, so my observations are based purely on how it affects me.

I may be over 60, but I’d rather have many more years in good health, than live my life for the next 6 months with a ‘what the hell’ attitude. I haven’t seen my only child since December 29th, nor am I likely to for several months, but in the meantime, I’m going to do whatever I have to, to ensure that when we are able to travel, we can visit him.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

We don't get much news from France
I had gathered it was bad but your numbers are heart breaking
stay safe @kipari

Thank you @Daisys and Diamonds !

The medical system here is usually really really good. And the hospital system is free. I know I've complained about people wearing their mask under chin or nose, but the protocols in place were pretty coherent after our first, total lockdown for 56 days. People literally didn't go outside other than for groceries or a walk not to turn totally bonkers if living in tiny appartements.
Sanitizer mandatory upon entry everywhere in buildings... Masks mandatory... We're back to total lockdown with some businesses (offices, construction) and schools open. Numbers soaring...

We are evidently not leaving our home at all except for groceries and kid's school, DH has put a system in place where employees have single offices only, everyone else remote.

Fingers crossed

 

[House Cat]

Thank you for your reply.

WRT the last paragraph in my previous post and putting to one side any discussions around masks for a moment, referring to the more vulnerable going out and about when it might increase their personal risk, do you feel it is something they shouldn't be doing?

My personal view is that the vulnerable should be able to determine their own tolerance to personal risk and carry on life as they see fit - I would rather have six months living life to the full than a year of imprisonment in my own home, as a hypothetical example. I would rather 'live' than merely 'exist'.

I believe a person has the right to die whenever they want. I do not believe they have the right to bring others down with them.

 

[yennyfire]

They haven’t.

you keep bringing up this point in these threads. The fact is if you are out and about without a mask on and gathering in groups without masks and without social distancing then you are part of the spread. You are literally willing to take people’s lives in your hands.

I don’t respect that-there’s my opinion

and I don’t respect it in my friends either, which really, really hurts.

This! 1000%

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Thank you @Daisys and Diamonds !

The medical system here is usually really really good. And the hospital system is free. I know I've complained about people wearing their mask under chin or nose, but the protocols in place were pretty coherent after our first, total lockdown for 56 days. People literally didn't go outside other than for groceries or a walk not to turn totally bonkers if living in tiny appartements.
Sanitizer mandatory upon entry everywhere in buildings... Masks mandatory... We're back to total lockdown with some businesses (offices, construction) and schools open. Numbers soaring...

We are evidently not leaving our home at all except for groceries and kid's school, DH has put a system in place where employees have single offices only, everyone else remote.

Fingers crossed

Best wishes that your lockdown is successful and it puts an end to the early death of so many French granmas and grandads
Especially the very old - to have survived WW2 and then to die alone of covid is too tragic and that generation deserve so much better

 

[OoohShiny]

Thank you @OoohShiny I’ve read the the list of ‘reasonable excuses’ and the only 2 that apply to me personally are going out shopping and going out to exercise. I don’t have a ‘bubble’ as it’s just OH and I, I don’t have any relatives in hospital (thankfully), or intend to visit anyone in prison, or go to a support group, so my observations are based purely on how it affects me.

I may be over 60, but I’d rather have many more years in good health, than live my life for the next 6 months with a ‘what the hell’ attitude. I haven’t seen my only child since December 29th, nor am I likely to for several months, but in the meantime, I’m going to do whatever I have to, to ensure that when we are able to travel, we can visit him.

No worries It's a bit of a slog reading legislation! lol

This part is the key part:

"5.—(1) No person may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1)—

(a)the circumstances in which a person has a reasonable excuse include where one of the exceptions set out in regulation 6 applies;

..."

The fact it uses the word 'include' makes it clear that the list is not exhaustive - so there are other reasons one can leave the house.

You may have other reasons, you may not but the legislation does not limit 'reasonable excuses' to only those in the list


How far away is your child, BTW? I would find it personally hard to be separated from family for that length of time, especially if all parties were fit and well and at low risk, but I appreciate that we all have our own personal risk tolerance.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Gary's daughter has cancer - she had beaten a really aggressive breast cancer a few years ago but its come back in her liver and spin
she had chemo durring our lockdown

There is no way we would visit her, coming from another city with the risk of giving her covid

we have next to no covid here but there is a new case of community transmission up north - a nurse working in a quarereen hotel

This nurse went shoping while symptomatic

We are not prepared to take the risk
Also Gary has several risk factors and i have asthma so we just keep to ourselves

You just have to do what ever you have to do to keep ourself and one's loved ones as safe as we can

yes we miss Melanie, she is holding her own most days, going to work, looking after her family
some days not so good
But just imangine if we somehow picked up covid and gave it to her and robbed her children and her husband of what ever time they all have left to spend together ?
She knows her father loves her even though we stay away

 

[House Cat]

My husband is high risk. None of us can leave the house because of the fact that people will not act responsibly. His doctor literally said “stay inside.” We have been in the house for eight months. If those people out there who were living life to the fullest would give one moment of thought to the vulnerable...to someone other than themselves, maybe we wouldn’t be suffering in this house. Sure, this is a matter of choices, but it begins with a group of people making a choice that endangers others. Our only choice is to react at that point.

 

[Polabowla]

@Daisys and Diamonds that is heartbreaking, im so sorry.
Yes the people around me are way too cavalier and it is extremely stressful.