iheartscience
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Wow...that is heavy. That''s a persuasive ad-I bet all but the farthest right on the issue will be affected by it.
The Abortion Debate
- Thread starter MaggieB
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Wow...that is heavy. That''s a persuasive ad-I bet all but the farthest right on the issue will be affected by it.
brazen_irish_hussy
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Most male zygotes, something like 80%, spontaneously abort, most before the woman even knew she was pregnant and I just don''t believe they all had souls or were more than cells. For me, It becomes a child when it can survive outside the womb, about 24 weeks. In this country elective abortions are illegal after that point so it doesn''t bother me.
luckystar112
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Good point Brazen!
I don''t think it''s up to me to decide when a baby gets a soul (but I''d like to think it''s somewhere between the zygote and 24 week period). I get your point though.
decodelighted
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This is a moving target though. Can be earlier than that already. People who do this for a living seem to huddle around the 20 week point as a potentially less controversial cut off point. From what they''ve seen & experienced. It does make me squeamish. HOWEVER I don''t want to start down a slippery slope. A woman & her doctor know better than I or the government IMHO.
LaraOnline
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This is an interesting topic.
I think Bee Brisk raised some interesting points.
She said that jail time served as a tool of punishment. Others responded by saying that jail is a tool for the protection of the greater community. I suppose both of these points stand, but in practice I would say that jail is used primarily as a tool for punishment or deterrence. If the main goal was to remove ''deviants'', many more convicted criminals would be jailed for life, literally. Proportionally, very few are. The length of time is more related to what is deemed a ''just'' punishment, in the hope of creating a deterrent to criminally minded people (who will at some point rejoin general society).
Also, I thought her point that governments DO legislate morality was a valid point. For example, the debate about the morality - or lack of it - in relation to drug use, rages on... in a secular society, governments are constantly called upon to make somewhat moral judgements, and must be seen to act in a moral way.
Finally, my personal feelings are that while natural miscarriages are a natural part of life, they in themselves have no real or direct influence on the abortion debate, much as deliberately hurting a person or animal is not at all the same as hurting them accidentally.
My personal feelings are that women should have choice, and access. However, I feel sad that our society, which has evolved in so many ways, is still woefully primal when it comes to the sexual issues of cause and effect... the necessity of abortion is evidence in itself that the ideal of intimacy falls short for so many.
I think Bee Brisk raised some interesting points.
She said that jail time served as a tool of punishment. Others responded by saying that jail is a tool for the protection of the greater community. I suppose both of these points stand, but in practice I would say that jail is used primarily as a tool for punishment or deterrence. If the main goal was to remove ''deviants'', many more convicted criminals would be jailed for life, literally. Proportionally, very few are. The length of time is more related to what is deemed a ''just'' punishment, in the hope of creating a deterrent to criminally minded people (who will at some point rejoin general society).
Also, I thought her point that governments DO legislate morality was a valid point. For example, the debate about the morality - or lack of it - in relation to drug use, rages on... in a secular society, governments are constantly called upon to make somewhat moral judgements, and must be seen to act in a moral way.
Finally, my personal feelings are that while natural miscarriages are a natural part of life, they in themselves have no real or direct influence on the abortion debate, much as deliberately hurting a person or animal is not at all the same as hurting them accidentally.
My personal feelings are that women should have choice, and access. However, I feel sad that our society, which has evolved in so many ways, is still woefully primal when it comes to the sexual issues of cause and effect... the necessity of abortion is evidence in itself that the ideal of intimacy falls short for so many.
While this is not at the center of this topic - I am always suprised that the issues of education/contraception get left out. Why do women have abortions in the first place??? I know that there are many reasons, but a big number of abortions are due to unwanted pregnancies, most of which could probably have been prevented. As long as sexuality is so stigmatized, especially in the US, young people (who ARE having sex BTW) will be at a much greater risk than what is necessary. Sigh.
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Take a gander at this Rob. It probably raises more questions than it answers, but it just shows how complex the issue is...
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1843717,00.html
And I just have to say this here. (and no, this is not a potshot at men, just an observation) Very rarely in any of these discussions do you ever hear mention of the man''s responsibility. I find it ironic on a l lot of different levels. Especially since there was a time when contraception was illegal, and the thought of a woman "sneaking around" and denying her husband children was an outrage....and yet now the complete onus seems to lie on the woman all the time. My how times change, eh?
The responsible woman generally takes a fairly high personal health risk to prevent pregnancies. The pill and all hormone based contraceptives have some pretty well-documented and potentially serious health risks associated with them. Some women are unable to take them, pretty much denying them the most effective of the birth control methods. When those are ruled out, it doesn''t leave much... And how many on here believe most men would be willing and dedicated to taking something like a male "pill" if it was developed (I know attempts have been going on for a while now)? I have my doubts that many would, since it might impact their concept of themselves. example: My ex wouldn''t have vasectomy because it might "damage him psychologically" he said. Give me a break.
Date: 10/20/2008 12:25:41 PM
Author: ksinger
Take a gander at this Rob. It probably raises more questions than it answers, but it just shows how complex the issue is...
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1843717,00.html
And I just have to say this here. (and no, this is not a potshot at men, just an observation) Very rarely in any of these discussions do you ever hear mention of the man''s responsibility. I find it ironic on a l lot of different levels. Especially since there was a time when contraception was illegal, and the thought of a woman ''sneaking around'' and denying her husband children was an outrage....and yet now the complete onus seems to lie on the woman all the time. My how times change, eh?
The responsible woman generally takes a fairly high personal health risk to prevent pregnancies. The pill and all hormone based contraceptives have some pretty well-documented and potentially serious health risks associated with them. Some women are unable to take them, pretty much denying them the most effective of the birth control methods. When those are ruled out, it doesn''t leave much... And how many on here believe most men would be willing and dedicated to taking something like a male ''pill'' if it was developed (I know attempts have been going on for a while now)? I have my doubts that many would, since it might impact their concept of themselves. example: My ex wouldn''t have vasectomy because it might ''damage him psychologically'' he said. Give me a break.But he was a pretty ordinary guy, so I can only assume that there would be plenty of others with the same idea applied to the idea of taking what would appear to be a ''female'' type of contraception...
Thanks Ksinger.
The article is great in pointing to some of the factors that are associated with abortion, especially education and SES, which are factors that play a role at any age, not only for teenagers. So yes - there are many fundamental issues that need to be addressed to reduce abortions, and I think that not enough is being done about it. As for your second point - you are totally correct that males need to take responsibility and respect women''s decisions - and women also need to develop skills to stand up for what is best for them. . This is why education is so important - not only in the specific domain of sexuality but more generally in the way in which individuals relate to one another ...
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Rob, I just want to thank you for contributing to this discussion. You''ve raised some excellent points, and it''s nice to hear a guy''s point of view.Date: 10/20/2008 12:38:01 PM
Author: rob09
Date: 10/20/2008 12:25:41 PM
Author: ksinger
Take a gander at this Rob. It probably raises more questions than it answers, but it just shows how complex the issue is...
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1843717,00.html
And I just have to say this here. (and no, this is not a potshot at men, just an observation) Very rarely in any of these discussions do you ever hear mention of the man''s responsibility. I find it ironic on a l lot of different levels. Especially since there was a time when contraception was illegal, and the thought of a woman ''sneaking around'' and denying her husband children was an outrage....and yet now the complete onus seems to lie on the woman all the time. My how times change, eh?
The responsible woman generally takes a fairly high personal health risk to prevent pregnancies. The pill and all hormone based contraceptives have some pretty well-documented and potentially serious health risks associated with them. Some women are unable to take them, pretty much denying them the most effective of the birth control methods. When those are ruled out, it doesn''t leave much... And how many on here believe most men would be willing and dedicated to taking something like a male ''pill'' if it was developed (I know attempts have been going on for a while now)? I have my doubts that many would, since it might impact their concept of themselves. example: My ex wouldn''t have vasectomy because it might ''damage him psychologically'' he said. Give me a break.But he was a pretty ordinary guy, so I can only assume that there would be plenty of others with the same idea applied to the idea of taking what would appear to be a ''female'' type of contraception...
Thanks Ksinger.
The article is great in pointing to some of the factors that are associated with abortion, especially education and SES, which are factors that play a role at any age, not only for teenagers. So yes - there are many fundamental issues that need to be addressed to reduce abortions, and I think that not enough is being done about it. As for your second point - you are totally correct that males need to take responsibility and respect women''s decisions - and women also need to develop skills to stand up for what is best for them. . This is why education is so important - not only in the specific domain of sexuality but more generally in the way in which individuals relate to one another ...
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It absolutely can!
LaraOnline
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Ksinger, I thought this part of your article was the most interesting:
Jones stresses that there is still a lot of ground to cover toward giving women more control over their family planning. "It's not just about preventing pregnancies," Jones says. "It's about having children when you're ready, and when you want to."
For some reason, up until now, debate on 'Family Planning' has largely been about avoiding families. Now, with the first waves of women coming through who have been unable to meaningfully plan a family for themselves within the natural frameworks or timeframes provided by nature, I wonder if our debate on Family Planning is maturing a bit, and the whole picture - which includes the family bit - is being included.
I have somewhat mixed feelings about a mass acceptance of a male birth control pill, because it is yet another step towards removing women's ability to actually conceive at a time of her choosing. As a woman who found it difficult to find the right man, and then having met him, went on to immediately to conceive, I think MEN, as a group, need to be far more pro-active and responsible in engineering relationships that suit not only themselves, but the woman they are with.
So often - and I think this is possibly a standard within the male community - a man will simply stay with a woman that he has no intention of truly committing to, simply because they have become intimate, and it suits him to continue. This is a largely artificial situation, made possible through the mass acceptance of female contraception. While many women do finally find 'Mr Right', and marry and create a family, many other women find they have left their run too late, because they were misreading the signs from their 'current incumbent'
Men (and I mean this as a social group, not as individuals!) need to be clearer about the role that fertility plays in the romantic lifecycle of women, and should be more responsible about the part they play.
My sister is upset about how fate has played out with her, and many other really great women have also been perhaps irrepairably damaged by these types of experiences. While I know that earlier lifestyles did lead to a proportion of the population leading somewhat stifled or alienated married lives, I can't help but wonder if the OVERALL experience of such lives was in fact qualitively as good if not better than the frenetically single, somewhat disconnected lifestyles many of my contemporaries live today...
trillionaire
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Date: 10/20/2008 9:42:25 PM
Author: LaraOnline
Ksinger, I thought this part of your article was the most interesting:
Jones stresses that there is still a lot of ground to cover toward giving women more control over their family planning. ''It''s not just about preventing pregnancies,'' Jones says. ''It''s about having children when you''re ready, and when you want to.''
For some reason, up until now, debate on ''Family Planning'' has largely been about avoiding families. Now, with the first waves of women coming through who have been unable to meaningfully plan a family for themselves within the natural frameworks or timeframes provided by nature, I wonder if our debate on Family Planning is maturing a bit, and the whole picture - which includes the family bit - is being included.
I have somewhat mixed feelings about a mass acceptance of a male birth control pill, because it is yet another step towards removing women''s ability to actually conceive at a time of her choosing. As a woman who found it difficult to find the right man, and then having met him, went on to immediately to conceive, I think MEN, as a group, need to be far more pro-active and responsible in engineering relationships that suit not only themselves, but the woman they are with.
So often - and I think this is possibly a standard within the male community - a man will simply stay with a woman that he has no intention of truly committing to, simply because they have become intimate, and it suits him to continue. This is a largely artificial situation, made possible through the mass acceptance of female contraception. While many women do finally find ''Mr Right'', and marry and create a family, many other women find they have left their run too late, because they were misreading the signs from their ''current incumbent''
Men (and I mean this as a social group, not as individuals!) need to be clearer about the role that fertility plays in the romantic lifecycle of women, and should be more responsible about the part they play.
My sister is upset about how fate has played out with her, and many other really great women have also been perhaps irrepairably damaged by these types of experiences. While I know that earlier lifestyles did lead to a proportion of the population leading somewhat stifled or alienated married lives, I can''t help but wonder if the OVERALL experience of such lives was in fact qualitively as good if not better than the frenetically single, somewhat disconnected lifestyles many of my contemporaries live today...
fascinating perspective!
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Gosh, Lara, I hate to sound so cynical here, so please understand that the cynical cackling you hear all the way over there, is not directed at you personally. Yeah, that WOULD be great. But considering that a great proportion of the half of the species is still treating the other half like property, I''d say we''ve got a ways to go on that one. My apolgies to the good men who read this. I DO understand men aren''t the "bad" gender, I married one and I love him more than words can express. But his "sensitivity" came very late, and was hard fought and took alot of years and self-reflection (his own admission by the way) and unlearning old patterns. And he''s one of the smartest men I know, so....Date: 10/20/2008 9:42:25 PM
Author: LaraOnline
Ksinger, I thought this part of your article was the most interesting:
Jones stresses that there is still a lot of ground to cover toward giving women more control over their family planning. ''It''s not just about preventing pregnancies,'' Jones says. ''It''s about having children when you''re ready, and when you want to.''
For some reason, up until now, debate on ''Family Planning'' has largely been about avoiding families. Now, with the first waves of women coming through who have been unable to meaningfully plan a family for themselves within the natural frameworks or timeframes provided by nature, I wonder if our debate on Family Planning is maturing a bit, and the whole picture - which includes the family bit - is being included.
I have somewhat mixed feelings about a mass acceptance of a male birth control pill, because it is yet another step towards removing women''s ability to actually conceive at a time of her choosing. As a woman who found it difficult to find the right man, and then having met him, went on to immediately to conceive, I think MEN, as a group, need to be far more pro-active and responsible in engineering relationships that suit not only themselves, but the woman they are with.
So often - and I think this is possibly a standard within the male community - a man will simply stay with a woman that he has no intention of truly committing to, simply because they have become intimate, and it suits him to continue. This is a largely artificial situation, made possible through the mass acceptance of female contraception. While many women do finally find ''Mr Right'', and marry and create a family, many other women find they have left their run too late, because they were misreading the signs from their ''current incumbent''
Men (and I mean this as a social group, not as individuals!) need to be clearer about the role that fertility plays in the romantic lifecycle of women, and should be more responsible about the part they play.
My sister is upset about how fate has played out with her, and many other really great women have also been perhaps irrepairably damaged by these types of experiences. While I know that earlier lifestyles did lead to a proportion of the population leading somewhat stifled or alienated married lives, I can''t help but wonder if the OVERALL experience of such lives was in fact qualitively as good if not better than the frenetically single, somewhat disconnected lifestyles many of my contemporaries live today...
What you''re talking about, men in groups, is nothing less than a complete overhaul of male/female relations, and that comes very very slowly when at all, IMO. Evolutionary biology would be a good topic right about now...
luckystar112
Ideal_Rock
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Date: 10/20/2008 9:42:25 PM
Author: LaraOnline
Ksinger, I thought this part of your article was the most interesting:
Jones stresses that there is still a lot of ground to cover toward giving women more control over their family planning. 'It's not just about preventing pregnancies,' Jones says. 'It's about having children when you're ready, and when you want to.'
For some reason, up until now, debate on 'Family Planning' has largely been about avoiding families. Now, with the first waves of women coming through who have been unable to meaningfully plan a family for themselves within the natural frameworks or timeframes provided by nature, I wonder if our debate on Family Planning is maturing a bit, and the whole picture - which includes the family bit - is being included.
I have somewhat mixed feelings about a mass acceptance of a male birth control pill, because it is yet another step towards removing women's ability to actually conceive at a time of her choosing. As a woman who found it difficult to find the right man, and then having met him, went on to immediately to conceive, I think MEN, as a group, need to be far more pro-active and responsible in engineering relationships that suit not only themselves, but the woman they are with.
So often - and I think this is possibly a standard within the male community - a man will simply stay with a woman that he has no intention of truly committing to, simply because they have become intimate, and it suits him to continue. This is a largely artificial situation, made possible through the mass acceptance of female contraception. While many women do finally find 'Mr Right', and marry and create a family, many other women find they have left their run too late, because they were misreading the signs from their 'current incumbent'
Men (and I mean this as a social group, not as individuals!) need to be clearer about the role that fertility plays in the romantic lifecycle of women, and should be more responsible about the part they play.
My sister is upset about how fate has played out with her, and many other really great women have also been perhaps irrepairably damaged by these types of experiences. While I know that earlier lifestyles did lead to a proportion of the population leading somewhat stifled or alienated married lives, I can't help but wonder if the OVERALL experience of such lives was in fact qualitively as good if not better than the frenetically single, somewhat disconnected lifestyles many of my contemporaries live today...
Lara, as always I appreciate your perspective, and agree with a lot of this post.
Regarding male contraception and the role it may play in a woman's ability to conceive, well, my opinion differs a bit from yours. In a romantic relationship between a man and woman, my opinion is that both partners share equal responsibility of preventing pregnancy. However, should one or both decide not to use contraceptives, or should the contraceptives fail and the woman become pregnant, the male has then lost all say on his right to (or not to) conceive.
This again goes back to the woman's right to her body, which many people (hence the thread) agree with. Unfortunately, a lot of the time this puts the man at a disadvantage because he may not be ready to be father yet, or he does not want to be a father at all. Yet, with the woman's choosing, this man may be financially responsible for a child that he helped create, but did not necessarily want. In this scenario, two things typically happen: The father is a dead-beat dad, or he stays with the woman for the sake of the child, both of which hurt the child in the long run. A less common, but third outcome is the woman wants no association with the male but still wants the financial help.
This also goes into what you said, about how males stay with women because they have become intimate, and again into the part of Ksinger's article that you quoted about having children when you are ready, and when you want to.
I think both partners owe it to themselves to be responsible in any of their sexual endeavors, which is why I do not for one second oppose a male birth control pill.
With that being said, we could ponder if this pill would even make a difference, if men would take it, if the rate of STDs would increase because more people would be willing to have sex without a condom...etc. But I do think that it would be an added step in the right direction for protecting a man's right to not be a father, while decreasing the amount of unwanted babies.
MichelleCarmen
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Like Purrfectpear, I became pregnant even with an IUD. This was after I had already had my two kids and figured I was done. What a horrible situation to be in. What happened was my monthly cycle started, was light, but didn't stop after seven days. After a few weeks I took a pregnancy test and found I was pregnant, so I called Planned Parenthood thinking that I'd have to decide QUICKLY if I wanted to keep the child. Well, after two blood tests, it was clear I was miscarrying, so I never had to make the ultimate choice. It was a horrible experience and I'm guessing in the end, if the pregnancy was viable, I would have KEPT the baby because I do not think I could have gone through with an abortion. I wouldn't be able to do that and live without a conscious! But, that is just MY situation. If I had a third child, that child would have been loved and cared for in a nurturing environment by a family who would be there for her (I felt the baby was a her). It's not like I was in a situation: young, broke, single, homeless, on drugs, etc., that many women who find themselves pregnant are in.
Before that experience and even now, I'm ENTIRELY pro-choice. Every woman needs to decide for herself. I'd hate to imagine if someone else made the choice for me. Especially a stranger high up in government who would still tax the hell out of me and not be there to help with baby sitting. I'd love to see a pro-lifer offering to babysit for young moms who cannot afford child care, so that mom can work to support her kid.
Kaleigh
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I am pro choice. I don''t think I could ever have an abortion, but who am I to tell someone what to do with their body?? I just thank god the birth parents of my nephew didn''t abort him. They were college students. Couldn''t afford to keep him, raise him. Now I have the most awesome nephew ever. He is the yellow in my day, I just adore him to pieces.
trillionaire
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I wholly endorse a male pill! As it stands, neither SO or I want kids. The safer, the better! For both of us! If we decide we want kids, we will adopt. We personally think having kids would be selfish, what with so many kids needing parents
Please do not get defensive, that is OUR personal take. We are not judging anyone else.
Please do not get defensive, that is OUR personal take. We are not judging anyone else.
MichelleCarmen
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Your post reminding me of the best adoption article in the paper years back talking about how many teens need homes. The focus wasn't on the fact that those kids (13-1Date: 10/20/2008 11:27:14 PM
Author: trillionaire
I wholly endorse a male pill! As it stands, neither SO or I want kids. The safer, the better! For both of us! If we decide we want kids, we will adopt. We personally think having kids would be selfish, what with so many kids needing parents
Please do not get defensive, that is OUR personal take. We are not judging anyone else.
need foster parents, but that once they are of age, they still need "a family," yet many are orphaned when they come of age. . . . I love the idea of a couple adopting a teen and then making that person a permanent member of the family so then that child/then adult always has a place to call home and a group of family to celebrate holidays with! If someone feels so adamant about not having kids of their own and pointing out "unwanted" kids needing homes, they should think broad spectrum. So, Trillionaire, has your DH had a vasectomy?
trillionaire
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Date: 10/20/2008 11:36:31 PM
Author: MC
Your post reminding me of the best adoption article in the paper years back talking about how many teens need homes. The focus wasn''t on the fact that those kids (13-1Date: 10/20/2008 11:27:14 PM
Author: trillionaire
I wholly endorse a male pill! As it stands, neither SO or I want kids. The safer, the better! For both of us! If we decide we want kids, we will adopt. We personally think having kids would be selfish, what with so many kids needing parents
Please do not get defensive, that is OUR personal take. We are not judging anyone else.
So, Trillionaire, has your DH had a vasectomy?
We are yet unmarried, so I can''t really ask him to do that... yet! lol. My dad had one, and is a doctor and highly encourages them. SO and I have talked about it, he''s fine with the idea, as they are less invasive. I totally agree with the spectrum, I work with kids in the foster system, and recently learned (at least here in NC) that if you adopt a child over age 12, then the state will pay their college tuition! (Probably in-state only) I think it represents a fantastic opportunity, but SO and I are only 26, and not ready to have a teenager. Maybe at 36 or 38 we will be
I really like the idea of siblings, too. Sorry, a bit off topic. To bring it back, may of the children in foster care with no support become mothers and fathers of children who end up in the same system. Adoption is very important to break the cycle, but so is the OPTION of abortion.
MichelleCarmen
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There is a weekly section in my paper showing children/siblings of the week looking for homes. The idea of adopting siblings is fabulous. I hope once you and your SO are ready, you''re able to do so, and having college tuition paid for is beyond ideal. If only ALL parents could have that option! I''m a bit frantic over how I''ll help my boys pay for collegeDate: 10/20/2008 11:43:03 PM
Author: trillionaire
We are yet unmarried, so I can''t really ask him to do that... yet! lol. My dad had one, and is a doctor and highly encourages them. SO and I have talked about it, he''s fine with the idea, as they are less invasive. I totally agree with the spectrum, I work with kids in the foster system, and recently learned (at least here in NC) that if you adopt a child over age 12, then the state will pay their college tuition! (Probably in-state only) I think it represents a fantastic opportunity, but SO and I are only 26, and not ready to have a teenager. Maybe at 36 or 38 we will be
You and your SO are so young though, and I would wait on the vasectomy. My DH didn''t have his until he was 36. . .if you read my post above, I had an IUD problem after two kids and demanded DH get one because we were DONE with kids and I didn''t want to risk another pregnancy. You should wait to be absolutely sure about your views on having kids. Thoughts and ideas can change over time and you don''t want to make a decision too soon and regret it later!
iluvcarats
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Date: 10/20/2008 11:43:03 PM
Author: trillionaire
Date: 10/20/2008 11:36:31 PM
Author: MC
Your post reminding me of the best adoption article in the paper years back talking about how many teens need homes. The focus wasn''t on the fact that those kids (13-1Date: 10/20/2008 11:27:14 PM
Author: trillionaire
I wholly endorse a male pill! As it stands, neither SO or I want kids. The safer, the better! For both of us! If we decide we want kids, we will adopt. We personally think having kids would be selfish, what with so many kids needing parents
Please do not get defensive, that is OUR personal take. We are not judging anyone else.
So, Trillionaire, has your DH had a vasectomy?
We are yet unmarried, so I can''t really ask him to do that... yet! lol. My dad had one, and is a doctor and highly encourages them. SO and I have talked about it, he''s fine with the idea, as they are less invasive. I totally agree with the spectrum, I work with kids in the foster system, and recently learned (at least here in NC) that if you adopt a child over age 12, then the state will pay their college tuition! (Probably in-state only) I think it represents a fantastic opportunity, but SO and I are only 26, and not ready to have a teenager. Maybe at 36 or 38 we will be
A little more off topic, but my Gyn. was talking to me about different BC options. There is a procedure called Essure that is supposed to be even less painful than a vasectomy, but you have to be completely positive that you don''t want or are all done with kids because it is completely irreversible. Sorry for the thread jack - just FYI.
ESSURE
trillionaire
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we are in no rush about a vasectomy
Not to sound pessimistic, but if we didn''t work out, I''d like him to have an option to have a family with someone else, if he wanted. Though he is more anti-kid than I am. He hates the idea of me going through childbirth after seeing a few videos/tv shows
lol. I''ve had an IUD for a few years, and love the convenience, but it has made my hormones wacky, so I''m going to get it out shortly, though I may move to the copper IUD (10 yrs! whooohoooo!). To bring the discussion back to relevance, I hear that some people are opposed to IUDs because you can conceive, but the baby usually can''t attach, thus "terminating" the pregnancy. I think this is why tubal pregnancies are more common with IUDs. I think that goes back to whether life begins at conception, or sometime closer to viability. Such a difficult thing to agree on!
I also wonder about abortion and declining replacement rates. Do we generally see a trend of more mothers having more abortions or fewer kids? (ie, interference with careers/lifestyle) How do we address this issue, if that is the case?
I also wonder about abortion and declining replacement rates. Do we generally see a trend of more mothers having more abortions or fewer kids? (ie, interference with careers/lifestyle) How do we address this issue, if that is the case?
MichelleCarmen
Super_Ideal_Rock
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- Messages
- 15,880
You know after being on the pill for over 10 years, having two kids via c/s, and then having two failed IUDs (one that caused a pregnancy/miscarriabe and one that just gave me horrible side effects) I love the idea that the MEN deal with the birth control! Men should at least suffer a little bit - even if it's just the idea of their "manlihood," being questioned. Dh survived his Vasectomy and is still a "man," but surely he worried for a bit there. Of course, the dr. gave him pain meds to help him cope
iluvcarats
Ideal_Rock
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- Apr 17, 2008
- Messages
- 2,860
Date: 10/21/2008 12:12:07 AM
Author: MC
You know after being on the pill for over 10 years, having two kids via c/s, and then having two failed IUDs (one that caused a pregnancy/miscarriabe and one that just gave me horrible side effects) I love the idea that the MEN deal with the birth control! Men should at least suffer a little bit - even if it''s just the idea of their ''manlihood,'' being questioned. Dh survived his Vasectomy and is still a ''man,'' but surely he worried for a bit there. Of course, the dr. gave him pain meds to help him cope
LOL! I was just throwing it out there. Believe me, we have NO problems with Vasectomies here - DH is a urologist!
FrekeChild
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2007
- Messages
- 19,456
We''re not having kids. I am on the pill. We''ve talked about Vasectomies and other various methods of permanent birth control because I hate taking the pill. I just showed him the Essure thing, and he said we''d talk about it when we A) get married B) have money and C) have decent insurance.
With his heart condition, my medical issues and unknown medical history (adopted), not to even get into his family history of cancer, diabetes, and heart disease. But those are the excuses that we''ll give family members. We just don''t want kids--and I''m fully anticipating getting harassed about it once we''re married.
If we decided later to have kids (academia is not conductive to having children), we''ve decided we''ll adopt. There are too many parentless children out there, and we don''t need to be creating any more on top of it. (Our personal choice, obviously. Everyone else can have as many kids as they want, just so long as they are loved and taken care of.)
With his heart condition, my medical issues and unknown medical history (adopted), not to even get into his family history of cancer, diabetes, and heart disease. But those are the excuses that we''ll give family members. We just don''t want kids--and I''m fully anticipating getting harassed about it once we''re married.
If we decided later to have kids (academia is not conductive to having children), we''ve decided we''ll adopt. There are too many parentless children out there, and we don''t need to be creating any more on top of it. (Our personal choice, obviously. Everyone else can have as many kids as they want, just so long as they are loved and taken care of.)
trillionaire
Ideal_Rock
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LaraOnline
Ideal_Rock
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- Feb 24, 2008
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Hi there Lucky star! Don''t get me wrong, I''m not saying that men should have no say in whether they have children or not. But I think that current male attitudes surrounding sexual experiences can really be reasonably exploitive of women. In fact, I would argue that a dominating aspect of male culture is the lauded appreciation of woman as sex object or, possibly, jail-keeper.
I long for a society that, in keeping with a higher mind set generally, would appreciate women as mothers, or potential mothers, in sexual relations. Even if the woman herself chooses not to have children. While that might sound very stuffy of me, I see all around me the wasted potential of really great girls, that have not been treated with the respect they deserve.
Mass acceptance of contraception has lead to some really great improvements in social equity - the overall trend is up! - but some of the finer points of human social interaction and co-operation between men and women have eroded, in my view.
It all started to spiral down when ballroom dancing went out of vogue as a common social pastime...
MoonWater
Ideal_Rock
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- Jul 1, 2007
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- 3,158
Date: 10/20/2008 1:55:28 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl
Rob, I just want to thank you for contributing to this discussion. You've raised some excellent points, and it's nice to hear a guy's point of view.
I'm slowly reading through this thread but I also wanted to stop by and commend Rob on his contributions.
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