The Abortion Debate

[E B]

Date: 10/17/2008 6:41:55 PM
Author: MaggieB

I have read a few different posts that have left me with the impression of - I don''t exactly know how to put this - people feeling like they have to justify the reasons that a woman chooses to have an abortion. Politically, this is a slippery slope. It either is a woman''s choice or it is not. If it is her choice, what difference does it make why? She doesn''t need to justify her reasons to you - a total stranger.

Well said, Maggie. I completely agree.

And Galateia, I''m so sorry you had to go through what you did. Yours is a perfect example of why I will ALWAYS fight for a woman''s right to choose. Hugs to you.

 

[MaggieB]

Sorry I goofed on the bottom of my post. I ran outside to ride bikes with my seven year old and left midthought. I didn''t think I hit send? Weird.

 

[iheartscience]

Wow, I''m really impressed by the thoughtful and personal posts on this subject.

Maggie, I was intrigued by your comment about your experience with miscarriages making you question whether each miscarried fetus had a soul. That''s something I had never thought of before and is a very good point.

Gala, I''m so sorry to hear about your experiences but I am glad you shared. Hopefully they will make some of the anti-abortion posters here on PS question their beliefs.

trillionaire, I was glad to read your post about the reality of young mothers who are unable to care for their children. I think that''s something that''s too easy to forget.

 

[iheartscience]

I also would love to discuss federal funding for abortions. It''s such a common argument used by anti-abortion supporters that I think we should break it down here.

I''m no expert, but as I understand it, based on the Hyde Amendment, there is only federal funding for abortions for low income women in the case of incest, rape or when the health of the mother is endangered. Currently 17 states use their own funds to cover abortions in other cases.

If I was going by the arguments against abortion in the Palin thread, most people who are against abortion seem to think that abortions in the case of rape or incest are extremely rare. I believe fisherofmengirly threw out the statistic of 0.001%? So it would seem that very, very few abortions are paid for with federal funding.

 

[FrekeChild]

((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS Gala))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I do hope you stay with us. I''m always happy to see one of your well thought out and articulated posts. You are an asset to the community, and I know that you will be sorely missed if you decide to leave us. Please know that you are not alone in your pain.

 

[trillionaire]

Date: 10/17/2008 7:29:43 PM
Author: thing2of2
Wow, I'm really impressed by the thoughtful and personal posts on this subject.


Maggie, I was intrigued by your comment about your experience with miscarriages making you question whether each miscarried fetus had a soul. That's something I had never thought of before and is a very good point.


Gala, I'm so sorry to hear about your experiences but I am glad you shared. Hopefully they will make some of the anti-abortion posters here on PS question their beliefs.


trillionaire, I was glad to read your post about the reality of young mothers who are unable to care for their children. I think that's something that's too easy to forget.

Thing, sadly, I can go on and on. Mother's with cognitive deficits that are exploited sexually, and have children but can't care for them, mental health issues, like depression, etc. Young girls and women who grew up in the system, getting shuffled. It's hard to tell someone to take responsibility when they have no idea what that means, when they have never seen it, and don't know what it looks like. (ex: I didn't know that shaking my baby when I was angry could cause it to go blind in both eyes and to never be able to walk.) Very much the cycle of poverty that was described by Maggie. And that's without even telling you of the countless horrific things that many, many of these children have been through. It would make you ill.

And even if no babies were aborted, and somehow, they all ended up adopted, it would take the pool of wonderful available parents and shrink it, so that the older kids in foster care have little to no chance. And until you have spoken to a child that tells you, "I wish that I was never born" because their life has been a literal living hell, I will continue to cringe at the smug self righteous indignation of those who will never try to understand the full gravity of the debate that they want to engage in. Maybe, just maybe, the pregnant girl that is molested from infancy by her mother's boyfriend, raped at age 13 and decides to have an abortion so that her mother won't hate her and kick her out of the house, and so that her baby will not be molested too, maybe she knows a little more about her situation than we do. Maybe that is a more responsible decision than many of us would have the guts to make. And as GALA said, these are people, not statistics. Sometimes we have no idea how much our views are privileged by our sheltered lives.

*gets off soapbox*

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 10/17/2008 8:23:11 PM
Author: trillionaire

Date: 10/17/2008 7:29:43 PM
Author: thing2of2
Wow, I''m really impressed by the thoughtful and personal posts on this subject.

Maggie, I was intrigued by your comment about your experience with miscarriages making you question whether each miscarried fetus had a soul. That''s something I had never thought of before and is a very good point.

Gala, I''m so sorry to hear about your experiences but I am glad you shared. Hopefully they will make some of the anti-abortion posters here on PS question their beliefs.

trillionaire, I was glad to read your post about the reality of young mothers who are unable to care for their children. I think that''s something that''s too easy to forget.

Thing, sadly, I can go on and on. Mother''s with cognitive deficits that are exploited sexually, and have children but can''t care for them, mental health issues, like depression, etc. Young girls and women who grew up in the system, getting shuffled. It''s hard to tell someone to take responsibility when they have no idea what that means, when they have never seen it, and don''t know what it looks like. (ex: I didn''t know that shaking my baby when I was angry could cause it to go blind in both eyes and to never be able to walk.) Very much the cycle of poverty that was described by Maggie. And that''s without even telling you of the countless horrific things that many, many of these children have been through. It would make you ill.

And even if no babies were aborted, and somehow, they all ended up adopted, it would take the pool of wonderful available parents and shrink it, so that the older kids in foster care have little to no chance. And until you have spoken to a child that tells you, ''I wish that I was never born'' because their life has been a literal living hell, I will continue to cringe at the smug self righteous indignation of those who will never try to understand the full gravity of the debate that they want to engage in. Maybe, just maybe, the pregnant girl that is molested from infancy by her mother''s boyfriend, raped at age 13 and decides to have an abortion so that her mother won''t hate her and kick her out of the house, and so that her baby will not be molested too, maybe she knows a little more about her situation than we do. Maybe that is a more responsible decision than many of us would have the guts to make. And as GALA said, these are people, not statistics. Sometimes we have no idea how much our views are privileged by our sheltered lives.

*gets off soapbox*

Wow...I want you to stay on your soapbox, actually. You clearly have firsthand experience with horrible situations that I doubt I could handle seeing. Mind if I ask what you do? Are you a social worker?

 

[Gypsy]

Trillionaire, I dont' want you to step off the box either.

Gala, honey please don't leave. I think you are a very brave person, both to have endured, and to have been so thoughtful as to post so that others could learn and understand. ((HUGS)).

I agree with Maggie that people rush to justify their choice to have an abortion, and that it's just not necessary, not to me anyway. I trust in humanity enough to have hope that people who have had to make this decision have recognized the gravity of it, have debated it within thier hearts, and have made treated the decision with the respect it deserves.

I was date-raped too. Nothing, fortunately, resulted-- no diseases no babies. But if it had, I would have been faced with a hard choice. But I am grateful that it would have been MY choice.

 

[trillionaire]

I'm a CASA/GAL (Court Appointed Special Advocate/Guardian ad Litem)

http://www.nationalcasa.org/

We are volunteers in our community to speak for children in cases of neglect, abuse and dependency. We investigate independently, and work with social workers and judges and various other agencies to make sure that the decisions that are made are in the best interest of the child. It is hard and unglorious work at times, but also very rewarding. I think Miracles here on PS was a CASA too, at some point. There are programs in every county, I encourage any or all of you to look into the program. I have learned so much about myself and the world, and compassion and empathy. It has been really humbling.

And most of the cases are not as extreme as some that I have described, but they are still difficult situations for children. I don't want to scare people away from volunteering

 

[diamondfan]

I am pro choice for sure.

Do I love the idea of random abortions? NO. Are there times it is a personal journey and tough choice that someone feels they must make? YES.

I have had one, as an 18 year old with an abusive (physical and verbally), jealous, crazy boyfriend. My birth control failed. NO WAY could I have had his kid. I just was not emotionally able to handle it and could not see being tied to him forever. It was an easy CHOICE, but not a nice one. I am glad I was able to get one easily and safely and am totally for a woman's right to choose, but it was not a picnic either. Sometimes I think of those babies, the aborted one and the two early miscarriages I had, and wonder. I now have kids of my own and they are little people, so I do have SOME curiosity about a baby and what anyone of those potential lives would have been like. But I have NO regrets at all about making the choice I made.

Now that I have kids, I am still pro choice, I love my children but I wanted them and I care for them. Would I want someone who is absolutely not up for it to have a baby they will not care for? No, I would rather they adopt their child out, but that is not for me to decide either. Abortion is not a GREAT thing, but it is sometimes necessary, which I see. And in terms of rape, a terribly deformed fetus or danger to the mom, a no brainer to me. But if someone were raped or knew their child was challenged and wanted to have that baby, it would never be my place to judge. I respect someone's decision, as long as they respect mine.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Gala, please stay. I greatly enjoy reading your posts, and you are VERY much an asset to this community. I would miss you if you left, and I''m sure MANY others would miss you too.

Thank you so much for being brave enough to post your story here! I know how hard that must have been. I have been sexually assaulted too . . . more than once. Also, my XH was very insistent on having a child with me, and constantly harassed me about it. I''m sure that he thought getting me pregnant would be a way of controlling me and keeping me from leaving him. I was always worried about what he might do, and I actually kept my birth control pills hidden from him. Fortunately for me, I didn''t get pregnant. But I know how easily that could have happened, and how terrified I was at the time. I know that I probably would have chosen to have an abortion.

People who find themselves in these types of situations need to have a choice. I have always been pro-choice, and that will never change.

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Don''t really want to get involved in this thread, but I wanted to say please don''t go Gala.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 10/17/2008 9:36:34 PM
Author: trillionaire
I''m a CASA/GAL (Court Appointed Special Advocate/Guardian ad Litem)

http://www.nationalcasa.org/

We are volunteers in our community to speak for children in cases of neglect, abuse and dependency. We investigate independently, and work with social workers and judges and various other agencies to make sure that the decisions that are made are in the best interest of the child. It is hard and unglorious work at times, but also very rewarding. I think Miracles here on PS was a CASA too, at some point. There are programs in every county, I encourage any or all of you to look into the program. I have learned so much about myself and the world, and compassion and empathy. It has been really humbling.

And most of the cases are not as extreme as some that I have described, but they are still difficult situations for children. I don''t want to scare people away from volunteering

Hey! My chiropractor is a CASA/GAL too! She''s told me bits and pieces about what she does. She is one of the most compassionate, lovely people I know. Good chiropractor too!

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 10/17/2008 9:36:34 PM
Author: trillionaire
I''m a CASA/GAL (Court Appointed Special Advocate/Guardian ad Litem)

http://www.nationalcasa.org/

We are volunteers in our community to speak for children in cases of neglect, abuse and dependency. We investigate independently, and work with social workers and judges and various other agencies to make sure that the decisions that are made are in the best interest of the child. It is hard and unglorious work at times, but also very rewarding. I think Miracles here on PS was a CASA too, at some point. There are programs in every county, I encourage any or all of you to look into the program. I have learned so much about myself and the world, and compassion and empathy. It has been really humbling.

And most of the cases are not as extreme as some that I have described, but they are still difficult situations for children. I don''t want to scare people away from volunteering

Wow, I am very impressed with you, trillionaire! I read the CASA website and what you all do is seriously awesome.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

I think what a person sees in their life, what they live, endure, does paint their views. I also believe that views can change over the course of a person''s life, as different situations and opportunities to grow come along. For that reason, I feel that Maggie really has expressed what a lot of people feel regarding this issues: varying ideas on where they stand.

I have always, for as long as I can remember, been taught about the value of life, the sanctity of life, by my family, my schools (and they were public schools in California, so I think that could totally have been a fluke), etc. Having said that, while I was in college, and for the first time away from the "sheltered life" I''d lived to that point, and not so closely tied to my parents, I grew in more ways than I thought I would. I began to develop my own opinions, and I wondered if what I held as beliefs and values were mine, or someone else''s. The same is true for my political standing.

For a brief time, after a friend of mine from college, was date raped as a virgin (not that being raped as a non-virgin means less, but still, it hit me more because of this and because I knew what her plans were, to wait to share that with her husband one day), I seriously pondered if abortion was okay, if she was pregnant due to something of that violent and horrible nature. She ended up having a natural miscarriage only weeks into her pregnancy. She didn''t talk about it for a long time, and I didn''t pressure her. I was so upset that she was going through this pain, because of some punk who thought he could overpower her, as if she was nothing more than his toy for the moment.

Over two years after all of this, she married her husband and began some counseling because she still had issues from the whole situation. She wishes she had been able to carry her baby, because she values life, no matter how it comes into the world. That floored me at the time.

Then I got to thinking; a life isn''t a life dependent upon *the circumstance upon which* it is created. A life is a life *because* it is created.

I have worked for several years in social services, always with children. I worked in a group home with girls who had been abused and beaten and torn down emotionally for years by their parents or other caretakers. I worked with kids with mental health issues, which often times is also tied to physical and/or emotional abuse. And now I work as a social worker investigator of child abuse. The job is hard, and there are some horrifying cases that stay with me long periods of time. I don''t love all of the things I see or the things I am called to do in the job, but I do enjoy helping children get to safe places in their lives, and I like being able to build a support system around a family to help repair the pain and prevent future pain. Does it always work out? Of course not.

I''ve watched mothers with 3 or more children, puffing on meth and choosing that repeatedly over caring for their children. I''ve had to visit newborn infants at the hospital, born sometimes weeks and weeks early, because of drug use by the mother.

I''ve spoken with kids and mothers who are terrified because the father is abusive and the mother has no idea how to get out. She knows if she tries and is found, she will die. She knows that the father would hurt the children, because that''s the best way to get to her.

There are all kinds of horrible, awful things out there. It''s sickening. But that doesn''t change the fact that a life is a life. Our society may fail in many areas, but there are services and resources available for these children. Just because a chilid''s life wouldn''t be ideal, that certainly doesn''t mean a child shouldn''t be brought into the world.

When a society starts determining that a child won''t be able to live a quality life because his/her mother isn''t wealthy (and is reliant on the support of the government for some time) because she had a child early in her life, that is a concern. If we were to determine what life ought to be lived based on that, few of us would be here. Most young families have a financial struggle in the beginning.

I haven''t had a mother or father who abuses their child yet tell me they wanted to have an abortion and weren''t able to, and that''s why they abuse their child.

Gala, I''m sorry for what you have endured. It''s not fair and it''s not okay for any man to ever attempt to exert power over a woman. Or a woman over a man, for that matter. And in posting statistics, I in no way am attempting to dilute the experience you have lived through; it is, however, a means of expressing, without bias (I mean, kind of... stats can be skewed any number of ways to support whatever the study is attempting to support), numeral facts relating to a topic. It doesn''t take away from the people who make up those numbers. I in no way meant to hurt anyone in discussing a statistic posted on the other thread.

 

[trillionaire]

Date: 10/18/2008 12:15:53 AM
Author: fisherofmengirly


When a society starts determining that a child won''t be able to live a quality life because his/her mother isn''t wealthy (and is reliant on the support of the government for some time) because she had a child early in her life, that is a concern. If we were to determine what life ought to be lived based on that, few of us would be here. Most young families have a financial struggle in the beginning.


I haven''t had a mother or father who abuses their child yet tell me they wanted to have an abortion and weren''t able to, and that''s why they abuse their child.

Fisher, thank you for sharing your story!

I agree with you that society should not be making this decision for people. I think that the people in the situation are the ONLY people qualified to ever make that decision, and that no one else should deny them the right to. I think that that sentiment is perfectly echo by the stories of the brave women in this forum. And I too fight to get the best services and treatment for the children that are already here, and I am so grateful for the work that you are doing!

Thank you!

 

[miraclesrule]

I think it is amazing that so many of you have the courage to tell your stories as I think it helps, on whatever scale, to bring this topic into a real vs. imagined situation.

Gala, I am so sorry for your horrific experience. It's unimaginable.

Trillionaire, I was a CASA for a few years. It was one of the most heart wrenching experiences of my life. I was also amazed at the secrecy of what happens and how little the public knows about the horrors of foster care and termination of parental rights, the breaking apart of a family because the youngest one is in the "most likely to be adopted" age range. I can't imagine what you must go through everyday. I stopped being a CASA because I was sickened by the system, the caseloads, the politics. I decided to go volunteer with kids who aged out of the foster care system or were on the streets due to the jacked up life of being tossed from one foster care environment to the next and to the next. The effect of the the emotional abuse and trauma that the system had on the psyche of these children was almost worse than the homes they came from. And once they are 18, it's bye bye now. There are exceptions to the rule, of course, but they are just that....exceptions.

fish, although it is true that there are many addicted parents who neglect or abuse their children, there are also many who are mentally or physically impaired that still lose their children to a system that is no better at raising them than the impaired parent. In some cases yes, but in many more...no. One case I was assigned to was especially difficult for me because the mother was injured as a child when she was hit by a motorcycle. She had seizures as a result. She had three children and the oldest boy was 12 and the youngest 4. The mother had never physically abused her children, but when she would have a seizure, she might be out for 30 minutes and the toddler would wander about by herself. The mother had tried everything...medications to control the seizures, but she would forget to take them. She tried a beeper that would remind her to take the meds, but the beeper itself would cause a seizure. Reading the file was difficult for me because I felt that in many ways the Social Worker had harassed the mother to the point that she would become combative, such as barging in at 8 p.m. to wake up the child to check for signs of physical harm and finding none, but then being able to call the police because the Mother would be spewing expletives at the worker for harassing her family and disturbing her children after going to sleep. It was always because someone had called. I also think many people in her apt complex didn't like the mother for various reasons, but the difficult thing was that the mother could not understand how the state could take her children. I couldn't get her to understand that just because she hadn't hurt her child and that her children had not been hurt, the court now had her kids and they were going to terminate parental rights so her daughter could be legally adopted. It was my last case. I couldn't take it anymore. The crazed drugged out parents or clearly physically abusive parents were certainly easier to accept.

I respect each woman to be able to hold their own belief system for themselves, but I do not believe they have the right to control or condemn another for their choices if it does not harm or violate the right of the person wishing to cast judgment.

I also think that life experiences should and usually will cause one to alter their belief system. If you are brought up in an environment of a certain teaching it is natural to go out into the world with that belief system until it is challenged by personal experience. Belief systems I held about abortion when I was 18 and became pregnant influenced my decision to become a Mom. That belief system changed when years later I became pregnant as a result of failed birth control, the sponge. The emotional pain of the abortion was far worse than the physical pain, and the emotional pain was directly related to the degree of guilt I was supposed to punish myself with as a result of other people's judgments, especially those imposed on me by my mother and her devout Catholic faith. Which really meant that my own mind was causing me much anguish and I immediately realized that I would never judge another in the way that I was taught to judge. It was ironic that it was the hypocrital nature of those teachings that really snapped me out it.

Women....we are so strong, yet we can't seem to bond in Sisterhood. It saddens me.

ETA: Woman bonded in order to gain our right to vote...to be heard...to have a right to choose a Presidential candidate. I think it's equally important to bond for our right to individually vote...to choose....over our bodies.

 

[ksinger]

Well, since this discussion of abortion is actually a discussion, I will weigh in. I was so sickened by the last "debate" where sentiments were expressed that bordered on wishing pain and ill for others, I just couldn''t post anything of value. All I could think of as I was reading was of people like DiamondFan, who bravely shared her story with the board, reading words like Darwinism and murderer. I''m glad others have weighed in to renew the human face that had clearly become a two-dimensional abstraction in the other thread.

I think I''ve said it before sometime (quite awhile back actually), that I actually see the abortion issue as pretty simple .

The choice to terminate a pregnancy has been before women for millenia. It is hardly a new ethical dilemma. And it is an issue which arouses deep and conflicted feelings, in individuals and society. In some ways it actually resembles the ethical dilemma of euthanasia. We don''t agree on it. It isn''t like we as a society agreeing that someone walking up and hitting you on the head with a brick is murder. Sadly, not that simple. And we so want it to be simple! But the issue stubbornly refuses to whittle down to the size we''d like. We don''t like having to think of life as a continuum rather than a START and a STOP. I don''t see a fetus as a "person". I don''t accord it the same moral standing as a sentient human being. Now, I freely admit, the longer you advance in pregnancy, the dicier that becomes, the closer to infantacide it looks. I personally can live with that idea of a continuum, of ambiguity, (and some agreed or mostly agreed upon societal limits, although some of those limiting attempts can get out of hand too link.) Some cannot. Again, its that messiness that simply refuses to conform to black and white.

That said, I cannot see that anyone save the person to whom this is happening - the woman - is any better equipped to make such a choice. As a practical matter, I can''t see any other way to go. As a reality matter, if a woman is dead-set on terminating a pregnancy she WILL do it. And that to me is where the issue becomes simple. The reality is that the choice IS hers, whether we like it or not. And that is really what sends some people batty, IMO. The knowledge that short of draconian measures, nothing on earth can stop a woman who has decided to end a pregnancy. Which leads to the assuaging of those feelings of enraged helplessness in some of the sentiments I''ve seen expressed on IRL and this board, of the "Oh well, if she dies she dies. She was doing an evil thing so...really, it''s only just" variety.

The question for me then becomes, will we as a society bow our heads and accept that we on the outside ulimately don''t and shouldn''t, have the power to stop her (unless we strap her down for 9 months, and that''s beyond the pale to just about everyone on the spectrum, I suspect), and allow her to make the choice safely (legalized abortion), or do we attempt to punish her for her "crime" (dangerous backalley abortion: I can''t stop you, but by God you WILL have to risk your life, as would be just.). At that point it''s a simple punitive power issue.

As usual I will suggest a good book. It''s entitled "Women and Evil" by Nell Noddings. It can be obtained used via Amazon for a pittance. Noddings is an American feminist, educationalist, and philosopher best known for her work in philosophy of education, educational theory, and ethics of care. (I just now learned from her Wikipedia entry which I linked, that "Nel Noddings has 10 children and in 2004 had been married for 54 years" Wow.) The chapter in her book, entitled Pain as Natural Evil, tackles the ethics of abortion head on, and from a uniquely feminine perspective - through the lens of what the vast majority of women value most - relationship. It was very helpful to me in organizing my thoughts on the subject, which is a tough one as we all know. As philosophers go, she is one of the most practical and least abstruse I''ve ever read. I HIGHLY recommend getting a copy of this book for your library.

And because sentiments have been expressed that abortion in the US is "out of hand", I submit the following article. It shows a more nuanced picture and a bit more reality based than simple declarations that abortions are as common as daisys. The fact is they have been declining for years.

Abortion Rate Falls, But Not Equally For All Women

 

[AGBF]

I hadn't read this thread until today. I agree with the women who wrote that their legal position is that they are pro-choice. In reality, I know that there are very, very few abortions that take place after the first trimester and that those that do almost always have compelling medical reasons. My position is that it is not my body, however. At least, I guess that is my position.

Personally, I do not have any religious belief that human life begins at conception nor do I believe that spilling the seed is a sin. Since I, personally, am not constrained from abortion due to a belief that the cells of early seed-meets-egg are a person, I have no problem personally with having a collection of cells (which others may call a "fetus") removed from my body. I have no problem with first trimester abortions for myself. (Other than that I am too old to get pregnant, of course. But let's ignore that, shall we?)

I have big problems (for myelf) with later term abortions and I always had. Once a collection of cells starts to turn into what resembles a person (in my opinion), especially very late term when the fetus would be viable outside my body, I find that for myself I would have grave doubts about abortion. I was a radical and a feminist in the early 1970's and I always held thes same views. I would absolutely have an abortion if it threatened my life to continue a pregnancy...but I think that even then I might try to see if any other options were available.

I am speaking only for myself. I would not try to abridge the rights of any other woman to an abortion under any other circumstances. I agree with the maxim that if you don't believe in abortion, don't have one.


Deborah

 

[ksinger]

Date: 10/18/2008 10:01:30 AM
Author: AGBF



I hadn''t read this thread until today. I agree with the women who wrote that their legal position is that they are pro-choice. In reality, I know that there are very, very few abortions that take place after the first trimester and that those that do almost always have compelling medical reasons. My position is that it is not my body, however. At least, I guess that is my position.

Personally, I do not have any religious belief that human life begins at conception nor do I believe that spilling the seed is a sin. Since I, personally, am not constrained from abortion due to a belief that the cells of early seed-meets-egg are a person, I have no problem personally with having a collection of cells (which others may call a ''fetus'') removed from my body. I have no problem with first trimester abortions for myself. (Other than that I am too old to get pregnant, of course. But let''s ignore that, shall we?)

I have big problems (for myelf) with later term abortions and I always had. Once a collection of cells starts to urn into what resembles a person (in my opinion), especially very late term when the fetus would be viable outside my body, I find that for myself I would have grave doubts about abortion. I was a radical and a feminist in the early 1970''s and I always held thes same views. I would absolutely have an abortion if it threatened my life to continue a pregnancy...but I think that even then I might try to see if any other options were available.

I am speaking only for myself. I would not try to abridge the rights of any other woman to an abortion under any other circumstances.

Deborah

Hey Deb! Just read your post (obviously) and thought I add, while I am a bit younger than you, I''m probably closer to you in age than some others on here...and I too read a goodly portion of the feminist canon. I think it may be a generational thing, the tendency towards feminism. Clearly, as we age, some of that stiff-necked stuff falls away, but I think those women like Steinem and Daly, never completely leave your consciousness. And you and I probably read all that stuff on our own, not as some directed part of a "women''s studies" program. That makes a difference too I think. Have you ever read any Noddings? I think you''d like her if you did.

Anyway, good to hear your views as always.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 10/17/2008 11:22:48 AM
Author:MaggieB

Oh BOY do I think I''m going to end up regretting this, but Pricescopers seem to really want to talk about abortion, so I thought that it deserved its own thread.

As someone who has spent the last thirteen or so years debating both sides of the abortion issue with friends, I have become greatly frustrated by our inability to move beyond namecalling and sloganeering. Whatever ground I have gained on either side has been gained by first being able to see the very legitimate point of view of the other person. Where I have not gained ground is by arguing - ABORTION IS MURDER, or MY BODY, MY CHOICE. I would love to know how people have formed their opinions and on what information they base their opinion. But I would like to keep this thread respectful. If I say things below that sound at first inflammatory, keep reading. I am honestly admitting feelings that I have held at times, and not judgments against people.

I''ll state right off the bat that I''m pro-choice. But I''ll also admit I have my reservations. I have had many, many life events over the years that have seriously affected the way that I view abortion.

I''ll try to keep this brief, but I, like many other PS posters, have an extremely conservative Christian background - so, first opinion was indoctrinated - abortion is murder. However, I also grew up in a poor, lower class neighborhood of latchkey kids (meaning - kids who came home to empty houses, working parents provided little supervision). A whole heck of a lot of these kids got pregnant, many of whom were my friends. These young girls would have no parental support, no support from the father, they were afraid, and abortion seemed like the natural solution. I personally know girls who ended up getting scholarships, going to college, and breaking out of their cycle of poverty after they chose an abortion. And I personally know girls that kept their babies, went on welfare as teens, and are still on some sort of assistance twenty years later. Abortion seemed to me by my late teens to be an unfortunate thing to have to go through, but the obvious solution to an unwanted pregnancy.

Then I found out at age 23 that I had a condition that would make it extremely difficult to have my own baby. I had one ovary removed at 24, and I spent 25 to 30 going $100,000 into debt having every infertility treatment known to man. I had multiple miscarriages, and even worse - a missed miscarriage. My baby died but wouldn''t leave my body, so I had to go have it surgically removed. I call these my ''return to conservativism years'' I was ANGRY at all the women who aborted their babies. Why wouldn''t they just let me have them????

However, at the same time that I''m thinking - because it benefits my argument - all you people getting abortions are bad because you are killing a life, I''m losing babies left and right. It made me start seriously questioning, are these actually lives? And - if you believe in a supreme being - is He/Her really putting a soul into every fetus that I''ve lost in the bathroom? Outside of the fact that to ME, they very much represented the potential life of the child I want, is it logical to think that they are really lives? And - if up to 30 percent of pregnancies end in miscarriage, how much value could a supreme being possibly put into the embryo at such an early stage of development?

And then, I DID finally get pregnant, didn''t miscarry, got to see the 6 week bean with a heart beat, and got a totally different perspective again.

There''s more, but I think I have said enough to make the case that I can respect all of your points of view. I think that most arguments about abortion boil down to ethical or legal. I''ve decided for myself that I don''t want the government to legislate my morality, no matter how badly I at one point wanted just one of those aborted babies. I would greatly like it if we could move the national conversation beyond slogans and do things that WOULD benefit parents who want to adopt, help reduce abortions by eliminating the stigma for unwed teenage girls, have programs that encourage adoption, publicize the fact that there are many different options available for young women these days, including open adoption that would allow for the mother to have varying levels of presence in their baby''s life. (On a side note, I would also like to completely overhaul the foster care system that lets children grow up in a parentless limbo indefinitely.)

But that said, I want to encourage these women, not remove their choice. And to me, that is what the pro-life/pro-choice debate boils down to.

First let me say MaggieB, I am sorry you had to go thru the difficulties you talk about here. I am sure it was terribly painful and difficult to endure. I am sorry.

I guess my only comment is (and directly specifically to you, but just putting it out there) that you so often hear "I don''t want the government legislating morality". But in fact, isn''t that what government does every day?

After all, isn''t punishing a murderer or rapist "legislating morality"? I think we can ALL agree that murder and rape are immoral.

We all know, deep in our hearts that murder is wrong. And it''s not just a ''feeling'' we have. We KNOW it. We may not be able to articulate it, but we KNOW it''s wrong. It''s the moral standard we all want ourselves and everyone else to live by.

So why is that standard tossed or denied when it comes to the life of our most innocent and vulnerable? Shouldn''t they be entitled to have their lives protected by the same standard?

 

[iheartscience]

beebrisk, the problem with your argument is that it elevates the possibility of a child being born (I say possibility because so many pregnancies end in miscarriage) over the life of a living, breathing, adult woman. A not yet born fetus/baby/whatever you want to call it does not and should not have more rights than the woman carrying it.

 

[MaggieB]

I cannot figure out how to edit a post, so in the interest of space, I''m cutting and pasting Bee''s reply to me:


First let me say MaggieB, I am sorry you had to go thru the difficulties you talk about here. I am sure it was terribly painful and difficult to endure. I am sorry.

I guess my only comment is (and directly specifically to you, but just putting it out there) that you so often hear "I don''t want the government legislating morality". But in fact, isn''t that what government does every day?

After all, isn''t punishing a murderer or rapist "legislating morality"? I think we can ALL agree that murder and rape are immoral.

We all know, deep in our hearts that murder is wrong. And it''s not just a ''feeling'' we have. We KNOW it. We may not be able to articulate it, but we KNOW it''s wrong. It''s the moral standard we all want ourselves and everyone else to live by.

So why is that standard tossed or denied when it comes to the life of our most innocent and vulnerable? Shouldn''t they be entitled to have their lives protected by the same standard?

Hi Bee, thanks for your response. I don''t want to say a lot back - not because I don''t see your point of view, I do - but because I feel like anything I would have to say back would be counterproductive. I don''t want to change anyone''s mind (nor do I think it is possible). I have the very tiny goal of just changing the tone of the conversation. To reiterate what I said earlier, after so many miscarriages I lost count, I changed my view that each and every one was a life. However, I don''t expect you to agree with me.

I do not think that the government''s job is to legislate morality. If we are talking STRICTLY about crime, I believe the government''s job is to keep people that hurt us away from the rest of the population, or to try to prevent these people from hurting us in the first place. Murder may be immoral, but that is not why people go to jail. They go to jail because we need to be protected from murderers.

Many, many things can be considered immoral but not crime. Let''s say for example, if you come from a Judeo-Christian ethic, premarital sex might be considered a sin, therefore immoral. I think that most people who would go so far as to say it''s immoral still don''t have any interest in the government outlawing it. I could seriously give about a hundred examples here.

I can definitely agree with you on one issue. At some point, a fetus does become life. You think that you know when, and I don''t think I do.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 10/18/2008 11:31:35 AM
Author: MaggieB

I cannot figure out how to edit a post, so in the interest of space, I''m cutting and pasting Bee''s reply to me:


First let me say MaggieB, I am sorry you had to go thru the difficulties you talk about here. I am sure it was terribly painful and difficult to endure. I am sorry.

I guess my only comment is (and directly specifically to you, but just putting it out there) that you so often hear ''I don''t want the government legislating morality''. But in fact, isn''t that what government does every day?

After all, isn''t punishing a murderer or rapist ''legislating morality''? I think we can ALL agree that murder and rape are immoral.

We all know, deep in our hearts that murder is wrong. And it''s not just a ''feeling'' we have. We KNOW it. We may not be able to articulate it, but we KNOW it''s wrong. It''s the moral standard we all want ourselves and everyone else to live by.

So why is that standard tossed or denied when it comes to the life of our most innocent and vulnerable? Shouldn''t they be entitled to have their lives protected by the same standard?

Hi Bee, thanks for your response. I don''t want to say a lot back - not because I don''t see your point of view, I do - but because I feel like anything I would have to say back would be counterproductive. I don''t want to change anyone''s mind (nor do I think it is possible). I have the very tiny goal of just changing the tone of the conversation. To reiterate what I said earlier, after so many miscarriages I lost count, I changed my view that each and every one was a life. However, I don''t expect you to agree with me.

I do not think that the government''s job is to legislate morality. If we are talking STRICTLY about crime, I believe the government''s job is to keep people that hurt us away from the rest of the population, or to try to prevent these people from hurting us in the first place. Murder may be immoral, but that is not why people go to jail. They go to jail because we need to be protected from murderers.

Many, many things can be considered immoral but not crime. Let''s say for example, if you come from a Judeo-Christian ethic, premarital sex might be considered a sin, therefore immoral. I think that most people who would go so far as to say it''s immoral still don''t have any interest in the government outlawing it. I could seriously give about a hundred examples here.

I can definitely agree with you on one issue. At some point, a fetus does become life. You think that you know when, and I don''t think I do.

Yep. There is that messy "continuum" that no one can agree on, again....

 

[purrfectpear]

For those who believe that life begins at conception, they will always say abortion is murder.

For those who believe that life begins at quickening, or when the baby is viable outside the womb, it is not murder.

Clearly doctors are unable to give a specific time period when a fetus is viable. To say that God or the bible, or someone''s personal religion is the only arbiter of when life begins is to declare that only THAT belief system is valid.

I continue to believe that each person should live with their own conscience and do what is right for them. I do not tell others what diety to worship, and I do not tell them what choices to make regarding matters that are internal to their bodies.

 

[zhuzhu]

Date: 10/18/2008 1:23:35 PM
Author: purrfectpear
For those who believe that life begins at conception, they will always say abortion is murder.


For those who believe that life begins at quickening, or when the baby is viable outside the womb, it is not murder.


Clearly doctors are unable to give a specific time period when a fetus is viable. To say that God or the bible, or someone''s personal religion is the only arbiter of when life begins is to declare that only THAT belief system is valid.


I continue to believe that each person should live with their own conscience and do what is right for them. I do not tell others what diety to worship, and I do not tell them what choices to make regarding matters that are internal to their bodies.

I agree with your view completely. The debate for abortion is never going to work because the different definition of "life" among all people.

 

[strmrdr]

From a personal perspective I hate abortion and hate the thought of abortion.
From a political perspective it is none of the governments business.
They have no right to regulate it one way or another.
Roe/Wade is a bad decision because there is no right in the constitution to have an abortion.
That they didn''t rule that the government had no right to regulate it because the rights not put forth for the federal government are reserved for the people is the real travesty.

 

[beebrisk]

Date: 10/18/2008 10:55:46 AM
Author: thing2of2
beebrisk, the problem with your argument is that it elevates the possibility of a child being born (I say possibility because so many pregnancies end in miscarriage) over the life of a living, breathing, adult woman. A not yet born fetus/baby/whatever you want to call it does not and should not have more rights than the woman carrying it.

Thing,
With all due respect, I never inferred that a child should have ''more'' rights. I simply asked if a child shouldn''t have the ''same'' rights and be protected by the ''same'' standard.

This is an issue that''s been argued by everyone for 40+ plus years. I certainly don''t expect the members of PS to resolve it anytime soon. It''s an emotional and gut-wrenching subject no matter what side of the issue you find yourself on. I hope this thread continues to remain civil. I will be watching it, but no longer participating in it. I just personally wish this issue wasn''t an ''issue'' at all.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 10/18/2008 6:16:38 PM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 10/18/2008 10:55:46 AM

Author: thing2of2

beebrisk, the problem with your argument is that it elevates the possibility of a child being born (I say possibility because so many pregnancies end in miscarriage) over the life of a living, breathing, adult woman. A not yet born fetus/baby/whatever you want to call it does not and should not have more rights than the woman carrying it.

Thing,

With all due respect, I never inferred that a child should have ''more'' rights. I simply asked if a child shouldn''t have the ''same'' rights and be protected by the ''same'' standard.

This is an issue that''s been argued by everyone for 40+ plus years. I certainly don''t expect the members of PS to resolve it anytime soon. It''s an emotional and gut-wrenching subject no matter what side of the issue you find yourself on. I hope this thread continues to remain civil. I will be watching it, but no longer participating in it. I just personally wish this issue wasn''t an ''issue'' at all.

Sorry, let me clarify-a woman should have MORE rights than an unborn fetus/baby/whatever. Therefore, she should be able to decide what to do with whatever is in her uterus!

 

[trillionaire]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IS0PJdE0Cs&eurl=http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2008/10/17/rape_ad/index.html

Wow. Heavy. I think when we talk about these issues, we tend to think about adult women making adult decisions. Even if we as adults can vote on these issues, don''t we have a responsibility to protect young girls and women who can''t vote to protect themselves?