Really need your honest opinion

[chrono]

Crasru,

I could not stop thinking about your problem so I’m back with another thought. There’s been some discussion about what we PSers have coined “half and half extinction”. If you are familiar with the search function, typing that in should bring up the topic which comes with several example pictures. This where half the stone gets blackish/or much darker while the other half stays “lit”. There is a strong line marking the two as though the stone is cut perfectly into halves. Perhaps this isn’t the same as your problem but it should at least show you what extinction looks like as well.

As for windowing, they can never be “closed” in a setting but its appearance is certainly minimized in a closed gallery style setting or an enclosed type setting. The drawback to this is that a dark coloured stone might appear even darker once it is bezeled or gypsy set.

 

[LD]

Crasru

re: your alex/window - Most Alexandrites are cut to maximise carat weight. As they are a sought after gemstone, carat weight makes a big difference to price. That's why you see so many poorly cut Alex. Yours does have a window - a decent size one - but this is NOT unusual for Alex. It has nothing to do with colour/saturation etc. It is purely that it's been cut to maximise weight. Finding a precision cut Alex is like looking for a needle in a haystack. I have one and I've been collecting that gemstone for 20 years! All my others are poorly cut (with different degrees of poorliness - if that's a word!).

re: the Mahenge - Chrono is absolutely correct that all you're seeing is facet shadowing. It's not extinction. You will get this in every single gemstone. Some will show it more depending on the colour. With brighter gemstones you see it more because the contrast with the shadow is greater. Have a look at the Swala website, nearly all the gems have areas of shadow showing in the picture. There are a few that clearly have extinction but I wouldn't say that yours is one of them. On the whole, Swala's gemstones are top notch so if you're not happy with this gem then I suspect that Mahenges are not for you. If the Vendor's photo is a good representation of colour/cut then I doubt very much that you'll get better for a Mahenge Spinel elsewhere. That said, if you really don't love it, you MUST return it otherwise it'll sit in a draw unloved! (I have a number of those!)

In terms of 50/50 extinction - I have one and if you search on my name for Umbalite you'll see it - it's the precision cut one. I doubt however that what you're seeing is a 50/50 just based on the other photos you've taken.

 

[ma re]

Date: 1/11/2010 9:00:13 AM
Author: Chrono

Ma Re,
I’ve never heard of “intentional extinction” and I doubt any precision cutter will want to do that.

Facet shadows is the term that I was looking for, but due to my English skills I ended up with "intentional extinction". So basically I agree with you that cutters, especially with highly transparent materials, intentionally make such angles, so that you see some "black outs" due to facet reflections/shadows and many people don''t know the difference between that and extinction. That''s why I said that if it''s not always in the same place, or it "closes up", it''s not extinction, cause extinction is there 24/7.

 

[chrono]

Date: 1/11/2010 2:06:48 PM
Author: ma re
Facet shadows is the term that I was looking for, but due to my English skills I ended up with ''intentional extinction''. So basically I agree with you that cutters, especially with highly transparent materials, intentionally make such angles, so that you see some ''black outs'' due to facet reflections/shadows and many people don''t know the difference between that and extinction. That''s why I said that if it''s not always in the same place, or it ''closes up'', it''s not extinction, cause extinction is there 24/7.

Gotcha!

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 1/11/2010 1:00:43 PM
Author: Chrono
Crasru,



As for windowing, they can never be “closed” in a setting but its appearance is certainly minimized in a closed gallery style setting or an enclosed type setting. The drawback to this is that a dark coloured stone might appear even darker once it is bezeled or gypsy set.

Ah! I see...

 

[colormyworld]

Crasru. The half and half "extinction" is not from bad cutting but instead is caused from the shape. Ovals all do this. Unless there is a more diffused light source. They are really prone to this look when a single light source is not directly overhead. As for the cutting on your spinel. I must say you have a very lean stone with what looks like no extra weight in the belly. It looks to be a very fine stone.

 

[Arkteia]

You know what I think I should do? Just show this to an appraiser - he is new to our area but he trained at AGTA and everyone says he is very knowledgeable. I just want to show it to someone I do not know at all. I tried to read about half and half extinction but the search function at Pricescope did not work (they said some members do have trouble posting new pictures - I do not have trouble posting!); I tried two different ways and it did not work. But I googled it and, lo and behold, came to the same pricescope topic and read something about it. It did mention oval stones; to be quite frank, I always preferred round ones but the only round one on Eric''s website had already been reserved.

Anyhow, I am going to take a week off work. I am not in a hurry. I shall use it as educational experience. I end up setting all my gems so it is not going to be a problem. Maybe this time I shall use one of the settings mentioned at Pricescope just to save some money.

 

[Arkteia]

I also decided to keep the spinel just because returns are so difficult. I shall keep you posted on what an appraiser says. I do not know if you understand my situation, but IRL, if you show something to a jeweler he says that while the piece is not bad, you might have obtained something much better through him. Then I start thinking it over and over again, obsessing over it and it leaves me in a bad mood and with an aftertaste. That is why I brought this issue to PS. Lots of people have responded to this post, I feel it is great, I am extremely thankful and grateful to you. Also, a got a lot of absolutely invaluable advices.

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 1/11/2010 8:33:19 PM
Author: crasru
I also decided to keep the spinel just because returns are so difficult. I shall keep you posted on what an appraiser says. I do not know if you understand my situation, but IRL, if you show something to a jeweler he says that while the piece is not bad, you might have obtained something much better through him. Then I start thinking it over and over again, obsessing over it and it leaves me in a bad mood and with an aftertaste. That is why I brought this issue to PS. Lots of people have responded to this post, I feel it is great, I am extremely thankful and grateful to you. Also, a got a lot of absolutely invaluable advices.

Take the spinel to a jeweler and ask him to find you a matching stone.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I think what you are seeing in the stone is what us cutters call a "bow-tie" . Very common for oval cuts, especially ones with a keel type pavilion which this stone has. This stone would not be a good candidate for a recut, there would be too much weight lost.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 1/11/2010 8:53:29 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
I think what you are seeing in the stone is what us cutters call a ''bow-tie'' . Very common for oval cuts, especially ones with a keel type pavilion which this stone has. This stone would not be a good candidate for a recut, there would be too much weight lost.

Gene,

I think it fully explains what I am seeing. You remember me using a term "batman''s mask?" That what it is, a "bow-tie"! It describes the pattern to a T. Is it extinction, shadowing, or something else? Why is it seen in oval stones?

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 1/11/2010 8:42:54 PM
Author: colormyworld

Date: 1/11/2010 8:33:19 PM

Author: crasru

I also decided to keep the spinel just because returns are so difficult. I shall keep you posted on what an appraiser says. I do not know if you understand my situation, but IRL, if you show something to a jeweler he says that while the piece is not bad, you might have obtained something much better through him. Then I start thinking it over and over again, obsessing over it and it leaves me in a bad mood and with an aftertaste. That is why I brought this issue to PS. Lots of people have responded to this post, I feel it is great, I am extremely thankful and grateful to you. Also, a got a lot of absolutely invaluable advices.

Take the spinel to a jeweler and ask him to find you a matching stone.

Oh he may, eventually, but he won't offer the same quality if I come to him first, or charge a much higher price than Eric did. That is why I came to PS.

 

[PrecisionGem]

It happens when the angle doesn''t reflect the light back to your eye. The stone is not windowed, but not all the angles fall in the optimal range when viewed head on. This will happen with ovals often. One way to avoid this is a barion style cut, but this cut does require additional depth, which may not have been available in this stone, or a non traditional crown can be used.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 1/11/2010 10:26:58 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
It happens when the angle doesn''t reflect the light back to your eye. The stone is not windowed, but not all the angles fall in the optimal range when viewed head on. This will happen with ovals often. One way to avoid this is a barion style cut, but this cut does require additional depth, which may not have been available in this stone, or a non traditional crown can be used.

Got it! I thank you for your explanation, I think it is very thoughtful and detailed. I think I got much from it... Well, I like the color, and it is clear.

By the way, the sapphire you cut for MakingTheGrade is phenomenal. I know sapphires are difficult to photograph but if the true color is even close to the one on the photograph, then I can say it is the second sapphire of such a color which I saw in my life! The first one was a Kashmir, and they usually come darker, but that was very blue!

 

[chrono]

Crasru,
The links below show example pictures of bowties in diamonds which can also happen in coloured gemstones. Is that what you are seeing?
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/bowtie-oval.53639/
[url=https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/look-at-my-oval-how-do-you-think-of-the-bow-tie.71960/]https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/look-at-my-oval-how-do-you-think-of-the-bow-tie.71960/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/opinions-on-this-oval-please.110884/ [/URL]

 

[Arkteia]

The first link, the shot where the stone has "blue" eyes (because my stone is pink, it has a resemblance) looks very much like it. That is why I called it a Batman''s mask.

 

[Arkteia]

On a positive note - people have been buying diamonds with significant bowties! Much more expensive stones! Great that I did not start buying diamonds (except one) because I felt I needed a lot of education. Great that I like traditional round shape for diamonds! Great that I did not invest in more expensive Burmese spinel! I was lusting after the only round spinel I found in Eric''s website, but of course, it had already been reserved, I believe, for LESNER. I did not know I could ask him to cut something round for me, otherwise I would have taken that road.

 

[chrono]

I’m sorry to read that it is a bowtie. I take it the light/dark contrast is quite strong most of the time or only in certain lighting? I’ve never been fond of ovals just as a personal preference so I always avoid them whenever possible. I am amazed you have such a positive outlook; I am sure each gemstone buying experience will only improve!

 

[Arkteia]

I have to check about the lighting. I keep it in my safe.

My outlook is positive but it is normal - because as you can see, I get better stones as I get down the pricing scale.

My first one, a ruby, tended to be flux-healed (next week, when I have more time, I actually have to get into the discrepancy between GRS and GIA certificates)
My opal was real but not the best one. My demantoid is an exception. My alex has a significant window although it is a 100% shift. My diamond...another story. These people were rude and it was more expensive.

Now this spinel. It is a good stone, and hopefully it will perform better when mounted. I wish I could exchange it but the assumption that everything is returnable was mine because this is how most vendors operate. Now when I am reading more posts about packages being lost or other problems related to shipping from other countries, I realize that the market is totally different. But since I have been offered a few diamonds I am glad that I found out something before I dived head first into a much larger pond.

So you see, as I go down the price list, I am losing less money. This is my only reason for positive attitude.

 

[Arkteia]

By the way, thank you all very much for participating. I got many replies. I learned a lot in the process. I am very grateful to you. It has been great experience.

Now I hope, people will help me find a setting that can mask a bowtie.

 

[Crystal keeper]

I think that stone is fantastic. Due to your lack of experience with spinels it''s understandable why you would have doubts and questions. It''s nice you can get different opinions for so many different people. I for one love that stone and would hate to see you return it. I have looked at swala stones many times and they have very fine tsavorites and spinels. I think job well done on picking that one!

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 1/13/2010 7:33:01 AM
Author: Crystal keeper
I think that stone is fantastic. Due to your lack of experience with spinels it''s understandable why you would have doubts and questions. It''s nice you can get different opinions for so many different people. I for one love that stone and would hate to see you return it. I have looked at swala stones many times and they have very fine tsavorites and spinels. I think job well done on picking that one!

Thank you for joining the discussion. I am happy that many people participated and I''ve learned so much. Quest for spinel has to do something with my country of origin and also the first mineralogy book that I ever read. It mentioned 5 "really precious" gemstones: a diamond, a ruby, a sapphire, an emerald and "noble spinel", the rest of them were defined semi-precious. Consequently, I always wanted to have a "noble spinel"! And I never knew how it looked except for one (very sparkly though) brown piece that I saw before this one.

I took the spinel out of my safe today. It sparkles and the color is lovely. Apparently, shades are common because I saw it on so many photographs. I wonder what setting to choose - my idea is a traditional halo. with the stone set high, and leave the back open. Maybe someone will provide me with a better idea. I also have to look into what Kismet''s jeweller has to offer - he seems to have a penchant for combining different materials (he calls it "aura") and it may work fine for a very bright stone.

I''d like to have it in a ring, but maybe a pendant would provide more range of motion and that could be fine for the stone. Do not know yet.
Hopefully Eric will continue working with me. Among other advantages, he buys the stones locally so the chance of buying a synthetic from him is next to nothing.

P.S. I see these "bright eyes" on almost every photograph of spinel. It should be just me. Most of the movies I see are for a 6-year old; he is afraid of aliens with "eyes". Maybe as we progress in our development, I''d stop noticing these things. Funny how our life dictates our preferences.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 1/13/2010 7:33:01 AM
Author: Crystal keeper
I think that stone is fantastic. Due to your lack of experience with spinels it''s understandable why you would have doubts and questions. It''s nice you can get different opinions for so many different people. I for one love that stone and would hate to see you return it. I have looked at swala stones many times and they have very fine tsavorites and spinels. I think job well done on picking that one!

Love Amethyst and Citrine, too! Is it allowable to form qroups at PS? I was thinking about "alexandrite retreat" (Where are you, LD?). How about "amethyst club"?
(LOL!)
I think people should start naming new perfumes after gemstones! "Amethyst cup", or "Old mine", or "Sleepy Kashmir". "Rose of France", of course, asks for a perfume in it!

 

[chrono]

Crasru,
I looked at all your pictures on page 1 again and did not see this “alien eye” effect. Do you mind pointing them out in your pictures?

 

[ma re]

"Old mine"...for a parfume? Not sure that would smell very nice - kind of like "Hole in the ground"

 

[Arkteia]

Chrono,

Have to take a new photograph, then. When I say "on all photographs", I do not mean "all my photographs". I mean "other photographs of spinel". If you look at TL's photographs of her new (stunning!) spinel, the one where spinel lies in the box with three other stones, you'll see the effect I was talking about.

 

[chrono]

Date: 1/14/2010 12:01:53 AM
Author: crasru
Chrono,

Have to take a new photograph, then. When I say ''on all photographs'', I do not mean ''all my photographs''. I mean ''other photographs of spinel''. If you look at TL''s photographs of her new (stunning!) spinel, the one where spinel lies in the box with three other stones, you''ll see the effect I was talking about.

Crasru,
I wonder if you are confusing facet shadow with a bowtie. I don’t see any bowties in TL’s new Mahenge spinel. Shadowing due to lighting, yes, but no extinction and no bowtie.

 

[T L]

To better explain facet shadows, they are actually extremely important when judging the cut of a diamond. What is commonly referred to hearts and arrows are the facet shadows of the arrows of a well cut diamond and the corresponding voids of shadows, known as the "hearts." You''ve probably seen diagrams like this before. If you have a well cut diamond, you will see the arrows when your line of sight is perpendicular to the table of the gem, and those again, are facet shadows. This is not extinction.

 

[LD]

Crasru - I don't see a bowtie issue either. Here is what a bowtie would look like. You would see this no matter how you twisted and turned the gem. It would diminish slightly on occasion but it would always be there. I honestly believe you're seeing facet shadowing as Chrono has said. You will get this in virtually all highly saturated gemstones but the extent will of course vary.

 

[Arkteia]

I think so. It is so much like what TL seems to have in her stone (gorgeous! I must say it again).
But since we have started this subject - is there any cut that should potentially minimize this effect?
To me it also seems to depend on the size of the stone. Am I right?