Ladies, when does it end?

[portoar]

MrsSalvo, you''re right. I went back and checked. She doesn''t have law school loans to pay off, but he says he has student loans to pay off. He is in debt.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 5/20/2006 5:32:02 PM
Author: stevebudha
. My girlfriend plans on working for her father''s firm once she graduates so I doubt she will have to put in the 80-90 hour weeks that new lawyers usually do.

Just this statement alone resonates that you both need to have a reality check. Sorry to be so blunt.

 

[ephemery1]

I was about to take the GF''s side (ok, just partially) until I ascertained from Steve''s last post that she HADN''T yet offered to contribute her own money, just her parents'' wedding-fund. Now I''m wondering if she might not have a great sense of money in general. If she''s never had to pay for anything herself, $20k might just be a number to her. If that''s the case, and she HAS some of her own cash to contribute... by all means, let her. It might be a lesson to her on what that little 7mm chunk of rock really costs. Because the truth is, I do understand her dream of a large ring (and 1.5ct isn''t outrageous, so she''s obviously not completely out of touch with reality), and if there IS a way of making it happen realistically... why not? Personally, I''d rather skip out on one vacation and go hang out at the family beach-house for a week (for free

), if it meant putting that money towards something more long-term (like a ring, or remodeling the kitchen, or a new car, or whatever your priority may be). But obviously, that''s a decision the guy and girl have to reach together. If the vacation is more important to him, they''ll need to discuss that.

Personally, I''d be more than happy to contribute to the cost of my ring. I understand that there are traditional reasons for the guy to be the one buying, but it''s 2006, my BF and I both have decent incomes, and I''M the one going to be wearing it. That said, I can''t imagine being comfortable spending over $10k at this point in our lives, because for us, that wouldn''t be a practical use of the money we''ve got right now. Someday, maybe. Just my thoughts!

 

[Lorelei]

I was having a look around to see what you could get for your budget, I still think that the best bet would be to go with a vendor with an upgrade policy, but if she really wants the 1.5 - 2 carat size you have another option. You can get a larger diamond for the budget with an EGL USA cert, these are almost always priced cheaper than GIA or AGS. The problem is that if you want to trade the diamond later it could be extremely difficult with an EGL cert, but if she doesn''t care so much about the "pedigree" of the diamond this could be an option. The reason EGL certed diamonds are cheaper is because it is said that the grading can be looser than the other labs, not always though, but for $100 or so you could get an independant appraisal if you see one you like to make sure it checks out. Study up and find one of a nice " make" cutwise. Apart from that a 1.5 - 2 carat G or better VS or better is going to be impossible I''m afraid with the budget but maybe the EGL route might be a possibility?

 

[ephemery1]

Date: 5/21/2006 9:41:05 AM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 5/20/2006 5:32:02 PM
Author: stevebudha
. My girlfriend plans on working for her father''s firm once she graduates so I doubt she will have to put in the 80-90 hour weeks that new lawyers usually do.

Just this statement alone resonates that you both need to have a reality check. Sorry to be so blunt.

I smiled at that too... my brother recently starting working for my father and I think had a little bit of a shock at just how much time he needs to spend at the office to do his job effectively. Not that he expected special favors, but he''s definitely seeing firsthand JUST how much time my dad has put into building the family business... and how much time is necessary to maintain it. And it is a LOT more than what the other "non-family" employees have to contribute!

Then again, I guess we don''t know the situation at her father''s firm... maybe she''s planning on working part-time and he''s okay with that?

 

[stevebudha]

I am still not sure about her chipping in for the ring. Isn''t this something I am supposed to provide for her? Something doesn''t feel right about going to her and saying hey, you have more money than me, how about throwing some my way toward your ring?

I''d clearly rather go to a vendor with an upgrade policy.

The debts that we are bringing into the marriage are so far just mine. She had both college and law school paid for by her parents. I have some college loans left to pay off and part of the reason why I don''t have more money saved is that I am paying them off early. I only have $5,000 or so in loans left, which I don''t think is very much considering that I am only 27 years old.

Sure I want a new car and vacations, is there something wrong with that? My car is a ''93 Civic and I sacrificed getting a new one so I could pay off my student loans. We live in an expensive area so I know a house/townhouse will be big bucks. We''ve already started looking and have our eye on something and I am surprised at how little we can get for the price.

I never thought about the other things she may want in life that I can''t provide. She normally buys herself whatever she wants. I know she likes expensive shoes and purses but as far as things like furniture or household items, we haven''t really discussed them before, although I know she normally doesn''t buy her things at WalMart.

As I said, I will give it a few days and see what happens.

 

[blodthecat]

Steve,

$6k budget will buy a GORGEOUS 1ct diamond, and like a lot of pricescopers, I started with a ''chip'' diamond ring, which i was more than happy to accept.

Your girl friend is displaying a very materialistic and selfish attitude, which is spoiling the whole engagement process.

If she was my daughter, I would be horrified, and would be having a serious talk with her.

I really would stand your ground on this. Otherwise you could have serious problems managing your finances when you are married.

Good luck with this Steve

 

[Lorelei]

I do think the upgrade policy is your best bet. The engagement is about the two of you so if you don't feel comfortable with her contributing that's fine - I know people have different ideas these days, but you feel it is a gift from you to her which represents your intention to marry, no problem. I think give it a few days as you say and then see how you both feel. I wish you all the best during this special time in your lives and remember that even coming from a major size queen such as myself, when you get engaged the ring matters, but not so much as the relationship and love the two of you share. I agree with Blod to try to stand your ground with this, we can't always have what we want when we want it, maybe you might now be agreeable to the idea of upgrading for an important anniversary in a few years? I am sure in the long run your GF will just be happy to have a ring from you, many people would do anything for a full carat, let alone more than that!

 

[dolphingirl22]

"I am still not sure about her chipping in for the ring. Isn''t this something I am supposed to provide for her? Something doesn''t feel right about going to her and saying hey, you have more money than me, how about throwing some my way toward your ring?"


Your absolutely right, but obviously what you can provide for her is not good enough for her. Thats what I think is wrong. Will anything you give to her ever be good enough?

 

[allycat0303]

I respectfully disagree that he should be able to provide whatever she wants. Seriously, what''s wrong with her contributing? If she can afford it, what''s the big deal?? They''re a couple. If I wanted something my boyfriend couldn''t afford, I would buy it, really it''s no big deal. On the other hand, if it''s an engagement ring, and it really BOTHERS/Upsets my boyfriend then what he provides has to be good enough. If he doesn''t mind then who cares about what tradition says???

Although, I do agree she needs a reality check. Seriously, is she planning on taking a free ride on her father''s success? I don''t think he''s going to hire her to do no work. AND if it were me, I''d be working extra hard to prove that I WASN''T getting a free ride. But that''s just me.

Hope you work it out Steve,

 

[pinkflamingo]

I don't think there is anything wrong with saying, I am going to contribute 6K to this. We have other things to spend our money on. Either we can upgrade this together in the future, or you can contribute some of your money to it.

I am 28 and I don't think it *needs* to be a giant gift only from the guy. of course, I am a pretty modern girl.

I do agree with other posters that your girl needs a reality check and her attitude about the whole deal is in poor taste. Especially with her offering her parents' wedding money. Very selfish. Where is the money going to come from? Will she skimp on her guests so she can have a 10K Vera Wang gown and a 20K rock?

Most of my friends are lawyers. They waited until after they got their big jobs to get engaged. Most of them do have 1.5 carat rocks, but then again, they waited a few years to buy them. And, they spent around 10K on the ring, not 20K.

If you still have debt, and you do not own a house, or newer cars, I agree that stuff should come first. Its not like you are offering her a tiny promise ring or something!

ETA: One of my best friends recently got engaged and his fiance works at PWC pretty high up in Manhattan, and she is 28. She wanted over a carat, he is a teacher and could only afford about $4K. She got an I SI2 that is an ok cut (wouldn't be my first choice) but it was 1.20 carats. size was most important to her and she plans to upgrade with her own $$$ in the future. there has to be a compromise somewhere!

 

[Lorelei]

"I am still not sure about her chipping in for the ring. Isn't this something I am supposed to provide for her? Something doesn't feel right about going to her and saying hey, you have more money than me, how about throwing some my way toward your ring? "


I think if it does bother you that you don't want her chipping in for the ring then don't do it. With an e-ring I feel if the guy has a problem with the girl contributing even if this means she can't have what she wants, then she should respect that. Of course if the couple is fine with splitting the cost then that's different. As your income grows over the years you can upgrade of course if you are BOTH agreeable, but I think too she needs a reality check and has to realise that the ring she wants she probably won't get, sorry to be blunt too. A full carat is nothing to be sneezed at! Especially as the average diamond size in e-rings in the States is around a third of a carat I believe.

 

[ladykemma]

Sung to the tune of "noel" the christmas tune.

no debt, house first
no debt, house first
no debt, house first
will your car die soon?

save for retirement
save for retirement
save for retirement
pay off student loans

car brakes wear out
we need a new roof
you need a cat scan
and the dog gets sick

live debt free, live debt free
live debt free, live debt free
live debt free, live debt free
live debt free, live debt free

 

[KristyDarling]

Ladykemma -- you''re a riot!!! And you''re also dead-on. Maybe Steve can sing that song to his GF in her sleep.

All joking aside, I think that Steve should just take a break from the whole ring-conversation thing with his GF for a week or two. Let things sink in for awhile and then perhaps have another talk later. She''s in law school, she''s no dummy -- giver her a chance to see the light. If, however, they talk again later and she still hasn''t budged, then we KNOW the message hasn''t gotten through. It will be clear then that the ring is of UTTER and UTMOST importance to her and she will want to explore every possible option for getting her dream ring. That would be Steve''s cue to suggest a possible contrubution from her. Like others have said, what''s wrong with a woman contributing to something she REALLY wants? Women should never feel that they have to settle when they have the power to change a situation.

I can see how Steve might feel awkward about bringing it up -- most men are very traditional on this topic -- but if his GF is adamant about the ring, then so be it. I still think his GF needs to re-examine her priorities and values, and I still think there could be relationship red flags due to this behavior, but Steve is the one who knows/loves her and so he must have good reasons for wanting to propose.

 

[widget]

If a 1ct ering is too ''small'', (

), maybe you should just skip getting one altogether and put all your funds into a fabulous wedding band.

Then sometime in the future you two can together get a honker...

(I agree with Lorelei...If YOU''RE uncomfortable about having her contribute to the Ering fund....don''t do it. The ring needs to be symbolic and meaningful to BOTH of you!)

widget

 

[Mannequin]

Steve,

On law school:
Your gf may be working for the folks, but I think she is going to be surprised about how much time and effort go into working for them. A lot of friends I know in the same situation bust their behinds for the same cash the regular old employees get, and the expectations seem infinitely higher for them when working the family business. Law school is a completely unrealistic place to be for a person looking to compare rings, too. Once that academic bubble breaks, it''s time for these students, some of them who have been immersed in higher education for seven years or more, to make big, real decisions in which other people''s lives and futures hang in the balance - talk about a reality check! No more cramming for torts exams and such, and the real deal can be very scary for them! Your gf may have a bit of a safety net built in for her, but it''s not going to be as easy as it seems. 60 hour workweeks are not uncommon for brand new lawyers. Plus she still needs to pass the bar! What is she going to do for that? I hope she has classes she is taking to help prepare her, as that wil be a brutal and grueling experience for her. I highly doubt her parents would allow her to practice law as a lawyer with their firm without being accepted to your state''s bar.

My story regarding the ring:
My new fiance'' just graduated law school. After attending both undergrad and law school on scholarship, he did not have student loans to worry about, and he also had some money banked from his late father''s estate. Knowing this, most girls dating this future lawyer would start seeing dollar signs, right? Not for me. I am a first year teacher, and though I love diamonds and had been eagerly awaiting his proposal, I explicitly told him NOT to be ostentatious with my ring. I knew that the job he would be starting at after law school was going to pay approximately what my first year teacher salary is to start off, and I don''t want to go into a marriage together with debt over a ring. He is the third in his immediate circle of friends to propose this year, but the only future lawyer among them (one retail manager with approx. .5 solitaire, and one Boeing employee with approx. 1 carat center on channel set setting).

I told him I wanted a ring with sidestones around a center one, but I did not want the center bigger than about a carat (I am leery about sporting that much bling as a teacher - I''d whack it on desks, or have kids coming back to my room when I am out to look for my purse or something, no thanks!). I went looking with him and tried on a few sparklies, and the prices were incredible to both of us in the beginning. I told him that it would be ridiculous for him to attempt to pay more than 7-8K on this ring, knowing that we want to start a life together soon, and that 6K would be perfectly acceptable, figuring in the center stone taking up most of the budget. I loved that he allowed me to give lots of input before the purchase was made, and if he had asked I would have contributed towards the ring. As we looked around, I told him white gold was a better buy over my original idea of getting platinum, and that he should look for that. We also discussed that if it came down to it, the preference would be cut and clarity over carat and color, and that I would be happier with a smaller, knockout stone rather than a larger, not as pretty stone for the center.

The one ring that I loved and that he ended up buying is stunning - the center is a .93 RB F/VS1 and the setting has four sidestones at .48 TCW. To get this gorgeous ring at a bargain price, he dealt with a local store that is known for carrying nice certified stones at wholesale prices to purchase the center stone, and he went with another local store for the setting. It''s white gold instead of platinum, the look is the same and it was less expensive. White gold is also better with wear and tear in the long run, easier to polish up when scratched. I don''t think he paid more than the 6K we had discussed. I have yet to see the certificate and have this ring appraised and insured.

I think you need to be firm but flexible with your compromising, Steve. If your gf is willing to spend her own savings towards a ring she really wants, I would let her. From what you''ve told us about her, I can see the potential for her to take whatever you are able to buy for her with 6K and run out and upgrade immediately, so why not allow her to pitch in if she has the funds? And you say she is on Pricescope here - look into some of the reputable internet vendors who frequent this site. You''ll get more bang for your buck with them.

 

[ladykemma]

another idea

With her input, get her what you can afford now. Later, she can earn a "right hand ring" of her choice.

 

[brneyedgrl]

I really feel bad that you are having do go through this with your girlfriend. It sounds like she''s really unrealistic and living in La La land. I also went to law school (for a year) before leaving and going to graduate school, so in a way, I know what she has to contend with in terms of keeping up with the materialism. By the same token, she has chosen to be with you, and it sounds like you are reasonable in your expectations.

I''m curious as to how this conversation will play out because once you get married, you may not want to rely on her parents'' assistance beyond paying for the wedding. She is obviously used to getting what she wants, and she''s been very fortunate to have parents who will offer to contribute to her wedding, pay for all of her education, and even offer her a job upon completion. Most people don''t have that kind of privilege. I can see problems beyond the ring issue actually because in a way, your well-being will be tied to her parents for as long as she works for the dad. You might have to do some serious thinking on this one.

If you still do want to propose to her, get her the best ring you can afford right now. If she balks, then maybe you need to reconsider your plans or evaluate how material she is with other things. Will she be upset when you cannot get her the house that she wants right now? I have a guy friend from graduate school who was married briefly to a girl who had similar expectations, and unfortunately, it did not last very long, in spite of his efforts to keep her in a comfortable lifestyle. The sad thing is that he is going somewhere with his career, and he may very likely end up having the money to live beyond how they were living.

Best of luck to you. I hope that she is happy with what you can afford.

As for me and upgrading, I don''t care to go there .

 

[ladykemma]

Brown eyed girl said: "I can see problems beyond the ring issue actually because in a way, your well-being will be tied to her parents for as long as she works for the dad. You might have to do some serious thinking on this one."

I was thinking this as well, but wasn't going to say anything.

 

[perry]

Here is the feeling I get:

She has no sense of cost and finances; and due to how she grew up she is expecting:

$20,000 engagment ring.

1 Million dollar house.

$50,000 Car (her personal car).

$5,000 - $10,000 per year clothing and incidentals.

Now what do you want:

$35,000 car (or better- just my guess).

Etc....

OK:

Sit down and do a budget.

After tax income (not gross)

15% Saved for retirement. You will need to be doing this if you really want to have enough to retire on. I put it first - because if you put it first you will have enough to retire on and most people can adjust everything else to make this work - as long as they start out this way. Don''t kid yourself that you will later take a 15% cut in lifestyle to start a retirement plan (almost never happens).

$500 per month per person for groceries and incidentals.

$ Gas money (how much with those fuel inefficient new cars).

Mortgage

Local taxes, licenses, and fees.

Figure 2% of the value of the house in annual maintenance and repair cost (for various items).

Car payments

Student Loans

Insurace (Auto, house, etc, etc)

Clothing money (hers and yours)

Professional dues and memberships

Vacation

Holiday money

$250 - $500 per month personal "at will / crazy" money.

Ring loan.

Get her involved in a big discussion about all of this and budget planning. Methinks that you will find that you will only have half or a third of the income that.

Then you will find that you can afford:

$250,000 house

2) $20,000 cars

Ect.

and might be able to afford a $20,000 engagement ring.

If she loves you - she will adjust her thinking (after a talk with her mom and dad about how they started in). However, she may find that the lifestyle is not what she wants....

I wish you the best with this.

Perry

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 5/20/2006 5:32:02 PM
Author: stevebudha
Well, well, well, thanks for the thoughts, especially about how law school and not PriceScope can be twisting my girlfriend''s mind. I never thought about it that way.

She is very competitive by nature. Her father is a very high successful lawyer and she has an older brother that is a lawyer, an older sister that is now a judge, a brother that is a physician, and a younger brother that goes to the same law school she does. My girlfriend plans on working for her father''s firm once she graduates so I doubt she will have to put in the 80-90 hour weeks that new lawyers usually do. I thought her competitiveness was more to do with her trying to prove herself on her own merits and not just trying to get by based on her family name. Law school was paid for by her parents (as were all the other kids'' schooling) and I don''t think she has ever had a ''real'' job, at least not that I can really remember. Spoiled? I guess you can say she is.

since she''s already been "SPOILED" ask her parents to fork over an extra $20k for her e-ring.

 

[ladykemma]

Original poster said: "Spoiled? I guess you can say she is."

DF said "since she''s already been "SPOILED" ask her parents to fork over an extra $20k for her e-ring. "

ewww, creepy creepy creepy! daddy paying for her engagement ring. ewww!

 

[ladykemma]

Date: 5/21/2006 11:58:53 AM
Author: perry
Here is the feeling I get:

She has no sense of cost and finances; and due to how she grew up she is expecting:

$20,000 engagment ring.

1 Million dollar house.

$50,000 Car (her personal car).

$5,000 - $10,000 per year clothing and incidentals.

Now what do you want:

$35,000 car (or better- just my guess).

Etc....

OK:

Sit down and do a budget.

After tax income (not gross)

15% Saved for retirement. You will need to be doing this if you really want to have enough to retire on. I put it first - because if you put it first you will have enough to retire on and most people can adjust everything else to make this work - as long as they start out this way. Don''t kid yourself that you will later take a 15% cut in lifestyle to start a retirement plan (almost never happens).

$500 per month per person for groceries and incidentals.

$ Gas money (how much with those fuel inefficient new cars).

Mortgage

Local taxes, licenses, and fees.

Figure 2% of the value of the house in annual maintenance and repair cost (for various items).

Car payments

Student Loans

Insurace (Auto, house, etc, etc)

Clothing money (hers and yours)

Professional dues and memberships

Vacation

Holiday money

$250 - $500 per month personal ''at will / crazy'' money.

Ring loan.

Get her involved in a big discussion about all of this and budget planning. Methinks that you will find that you will only have half or a third of the income that.

Then you will find that you can afford:

$250,000 house

2) $20,000 cars

Ect.

and might be able to afford a $20,000 engagement ring.

If she loves you - she will adjust her thinking (after a talk with her mom and dad about how they started in). However, she may find that the lifestyle is not what she wants....

I wish you the best with this.

Perry

what perry said except we do 20% to retirement.

 

[KristyDarling]

Date: 5/21/2006 12:08:54 PM
Author: ladykemma

Original poster said: ''Spoiled? I guess you can say she is.''

DF said ''since she''s already been ''SPOILED'' ask her parents to fork over an extra $20k for her e-ring. ''


ewww, creepy creepy creepy! daddy paying for her engagement ring. ewww!

Actually, it was Steve''s GF''s idea that daddy help pay for her e-ring. Steve''s second post said that after they had a talk about the ring, she was disappointed and thought they could use part of her parents'' wedding budget contribution to pay for a more expensive e-ring.

 

[SquareCut]

Well, if she checks these boards she may spot this thread, so be ready for that. Anyway, maybe the people here can help find somthing within your budget that she might be happy with. This is a picture of Winnie's georgous halo ring. Maybe something like this?

 

[ladykemma]

edited to remove unnecessary contribution to this.

steve have you considered "used"?
man, what you could get secondand for 6K!!!! with a fresh setting from jareds. what fun!
with used there are no upgrades though.

Ladykemma -- queen of the "used diamond"

 

[phoenixgirl]

I don't see what's wrong with her chipping in *if it's her money* and not her parents'. You are joining your lives together, and that includes finances. If this will make her happy, then why worry about propriety? This isn't the 1950's. She has been getting flak for being spoiled, but in reality, she has obtained a grad school education and plans to work. She is not expecting you to take care of her while she sits around at home dusting. The ring symbolizes your desire to meld your lives, and if it will make her a lot happier to spend her own money on it, then don't let your pride stand in the way of that. People will just think, "Wow, I didn't know he made that much," and be impressed anyway.

By the line of reasoning that a suitor shouldn't give a ring that he couldn't afford alone, then my husband shouldn't have given my grandmother's diamond in my ring, and I should just be wearing a 1/4 carat or whatever until I "deserve" or "earn" more (but since it is supposed to come from his money, how do I earn his money? Marriage isn't a series of quid pro quos).

Or, if we still live in a world where the man shows his ability to take care of a potential wife with his purchase of a ring, then she shouldn't marry Steve because he's beneath her financially and obviously won't be providing the same standard of living as her father, at least at first. We don't live in a Jane Austen novel, and like I said in my last post, marriage is about figuring out what is important to another person and honoring that. You cannot change the fact a big ring is important to her. Of course, you also cannot change that you have $6k and no more to spend. But if she wants to contribute, I say, let her. Do what you can to find happiness in life together, and don't let pride or a tendency to overanalyze or some antiquated sense of propriety stand in the way.

As others have said, I suggest some more serious talks about what is important to you guys, how much you will have to spend and on what, etc. If all she wants is her dream ring (remember, she even offered to reduce the wedding budget because of it, so it's clearly more important to her than other things), then try to accomodate that. If, on the other hand, she is living in "la la land" and will pull the, "But I want it!" card anytime some luxury good that her friends have comes along, then there may be trouble ahead. Only you can figure out which one it is. Good luck.

 

[Blenheim]

If she''s set on that size, would she be interested in a gemstone?

Also, has she actually tried on diamonds of various sizes, or is she just going by the pictures on here? There was a girl who posted a while ago saying that she thought a 1 carat was small until she actually saw it on her finger.

 

[tracys126]

Hey Steve,

This is a great thread and I have a lot say but not a lot of time to write, because I have to leave for an appointment right now.

But I too had 2ct expectation, and when I found out the prices (and found pricescope for that matter) I was shocked and immediately had diamond anxiety/envy. Also because I live in Southern California, I wanted something that could keep up a bit with the ring scene here. But I didn''t want BLINGY - just something simple, classy and 2cts!

Anyway, I didn''t hit 2cts and you know what? I LOVE MY RING. I spent a month researching and trying to find a ring within our budget, then I threw in the towel and let Jeff just go for it. I now have a 1.4 - and every single time I look at it, you know what I think? I think, I love my fiance. I love that I am engaged. I love that we found each other.

I''m finding that it''s less about size and more about a symbol of our love.

BUT I WANTED TO SAY... DO YOUR VERY BEST TO GIVE HER WHAT SHE WANTS because she will have to look at it every day until the upgrade!

And if you don''t mind me asking? Can you pretty please allow some of the wedding budget to go toward the ring if that''s what she wants? I mean, if the ring is more important than certain aspects of the wedding for her, hey, comprise here. Why the heck not?!

Good luck. Tough situation. I just lived through it!!

 

[Blenheim]

Before deciding to use part of the wedding budget towards the ring, I''d tentatively plan out some aspects of the wedding with her if I were you. Just look around online for reception sites, catering, dresses, music, flowers, etc that she likes, and add up how much some basic things will cost. She might have suggested it as a quick solution, without thinking of how much the wedding she wants is really going to cost.