Is this skinny model attractive?

[mousey]

I saw a Tyra show recently that really rattled me. It was about trying to shame friends and family members of overweight (actually probably obese) people. The friends and family were insulting and nasty about the weight of their friends/family, and so Tyra confronted them about it. Her whole premise was ''every time you insult someone you show your insecurity, these people are happy with themselves, and you are not. Your attitude shows you hate yourself, not them''.
Now, the thing is, I don t think you should ever insult someone because they are fat/thin/etc, but I think Tyra forgot to mention that being overweight is unhealthy, and friends and family are obliged to help people change their lifestyle to be healthier.
When I was young I ''flirted'' with anorexia. It never became so bad I had to be hospitalized, but it came close. My brother started by insulting me, saying I was too thin. When that did nt work, he tried to guilt me into eating ''I had an obligation to my family, etc etc''. When that did nt work he threatened to hospitalize me. In the end, through his hard work, I came to realize I had a problem.
Eating disorders are horrible. As far as I am concerned being clinically obese is an eating disorder. Deamonizing anorexia (yes, that models picture is horrendous) while promoting obesity is not helpful. A healthy BMI (taking into account that it is not always a perfect measure) is a more helpful measure. So, what if you don t have a health BMI? Well, I don t think it is ever OK to insult someone because of their appearance. Especially a stranger on a message board. But I DO think it is necessary for family and friends to try and help, in whatever way they can, to make people with an unhealthy BMI realize they have a problem, and to help them overcome that problem. And I think its important to work towards a society where a healthy BMI is seen as the ideal in feminine beauty.
As far as I am concerned, real women may have curves, bones, big/small breasts, long legs/small legs/no legs, etc (you get my point). A real woman is a healthy woman. A society which promotes an ideal that is so small a woman who instantiates it regularly faints, has no immunity, etc, has to be fixed. Also, a society which promotes the idea that it is unPC to criticize obesity should likewise be fixed.
sorry for the long post.

 

[dragonfly411]

Mousey - in regards to your first paragraph, I see your point, but I think the point of the show was to confront people who are insulting about it, or in the case of those who ARE happy with their weight, confronting those who keep pressuring. No it is not healthy to be overweight, but it''s not healthy to drill thinness into people either, and its not ok to be insulting about it. I''ve been overweight, and to hear others say you are lazy, or give you a horrible look, or similar acts isn''t fun. So I do agree with you, but can see where she was going with it as well.

 

[dragonfly411]

Also to add, I completely agree with you, obesity CAN be an eating disorder.

BUT I also know my aunt has been heavier her entire adult life despite a personal trainer, gym sessions, cooking at home, and really really really healthy eating. It''s just her body type, and I could NEVER imagine her being thin. She is stunning as she is.

 

[4ever]

I''m hopeing the industry will graduly start moving towards using more "plus size" models, who are actually normal sized people. I personally think they are more attractive but it I think more clothes would be made to look fantastic on average sized women rather then only looking good on very slim women. Curently in the fashion industry the norm is to design clothes in sample size and then just upscale the measurements for each larger size. This means clothes don''t usually fit normal sized people well because it is not designed for their shape. As an average sized woman, I think of the countless pairs of jeans I have tried on and found thay have been designed for someone with no hipps, or the tops I''ve tryed designed for people with little to no boobs and all the other outfits I''d never try on because I know they only look good on someone with less shape. People should be designing clothing that looks great on the majority, not a small minority of super skinnys.

 

[Haven]

Date: 10/8/2009 2:32:08 PM
Author: TheBigT
Wow, what's striking to me about this thread is how hard women are on other women.

This struck me, as well.

This discussion reminds me of an old parenting thread from FHH when many posters commented that women need to stop being so judgmental of the way other women choose to parent their children. I believe it was after a heated discussion about staying at home vs. working.
We seem to be our own worst critics.

As for what is attractive, it's clear that different men find different physical attributes attractive. However, I imagine most men would agree that one of the things they find most attractive is confidence, which seems to be the first thing a woman loses when she starts belittling or criticizing anothers' appearance.

 

[musey]

Date: 10/8/2009 11:50:58 AM
Author: EBree

Date: 10/8/2009 11:34:05 AM
Author: sparkly_stars
Why do you think the health/fitness industry is making BILLIONS? On a daily basis anyone remotely close to being overweight is reminded in some way that they are not ''measuring up'' or are unhealthy.

Exactly. Though naturally (or unnaturally) thin people are subjected to judgment, it doesn''t come CLOSE to the amount ''overweight'' people are, healthy or not.

Yeah. Everyone''s judged. Even perfectly healthy, lovely-sized women are judged. Probably because the idea of a perfectly healthy body is entirely skewed from person to person. My ''thin'' could easily be another person''s ''frighteningly skinny,'' my ''beautifully curvy'' could be another person''s ''chubby.''

Another thing that makes life so great is that not only do we come in all different sizes, people see beauty in all different sizes. If that model were actually that shape (and she very clearly isn''t), there would be someone who found her beautiful. Without getting into the psychology of being attracted to unhealthy ideals, isn''t the idea that for every person there is, every shape there is, there is also someone out there who can appreciate its beauty - a nice one?

 

[musey]

Date: 10/8/2009 2:23:57 PM
Author: MonkeyPie
This picture is not legit - it's a joke by a photoshop master. I just read the article on Photoshop Disasters this morning.

Thank you for pointing that out, I had a feeling it was one of those.

I think that model is just beautiful in every way, without the laughable photoshopping

 

[partgypsy]

Date: 10/8/2009 3:32:43 PM
Author: Haven

Date: 10/8/2009 2:32:08 PM
Author: TheBigT
Wow, what''s striking to me about this thread is how hard women are on other women.

This struck me, as well.

This discussion reminds me of an old parenting thread from FHH when many posters commented that women need to stop being so judgmental of the way other women choose to parent their children. I believe it was after a heated discussion about staying at home vs. working.
We seem to be our own worst critics.

As for what is attractive, it''s clear that different men find different physical attributes attractive. However, I imagine most men would agree that one of the things they find most attractive is confidence, which seems to be the first thing a woman loses when she starts belittling or criticizing others'' appearance.

I agree. One thing I like about my husband is that is does find a wide range of women attractive, from thin to curvy. That he appreciates the differences, that something that makes someone different can be attractive or sexy. He may get that in part from being an art major where you see all these representations of feminine beauty, and how that changes over time and cultures. I also think us women are being rather defensive. As an aside, did anyone see the Glamour pg 194 girl? I thought she was beautiful, though I wouldn''t really consider herself plus-sized.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 10/8/2009 3:32:43 PM
Author: Haven

Date: 10/8/2009 2:32:08 PM
Author: TheBigT
Wow, what's striking to me about this thread is how hard women are on other women.

This struck me, as well.

Yes, this thread is completely unacceptable. It's providing an opportunity for women to bash one another for the way they look. I've only read some of the responses, but it AMAZES me that those here think it's okay to talk about how gross very thin women are.

Focus on yourselves and what you can do to make yourself the best you can. Being negative toward certain women does nothing to improve relations between one another. If you have nothing good to say, then it's better to remain silent.

ETA - I'm a size 2. Once I walked into a room and heard a woman MAKING FUN OF ME because I don't have any hips so in a way, this post hits home for me.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 10/7/2009 7:09:26 PM
Author:kenny
Ralph Lauren likes really really skinny models.

I think it is kind of sad.
Women and girls see these fashion photographs, even if the ARE photoshopped, and see them as some kind of goal.

Link

OMG, give here a doughnut. QUICK!

A donut? Is that your idea of what a woman should eat to look attractive to you? How about regardless of weight, eating healthily?

Your starting of this thread is insulting because you''re instigating a situation where weight and what is acceptable is debated.

 

[Ara Ann]

Date: 10/8/2009 3:44:19 PM
Author: musey

Date: 10/8/2009 11:50:58 AM

Author: EBree

Date: 10/8/2009 11:34:05 AM

Author: sparkly_stars

Why do you think the health/fitness industry is making BILLIONS? On a daily basis anyone remotely close to being overweight is reminded in some way that they are not 'measuring up' or are unhealthy.

Exactly. Though naturally (or unnaturally) thin people are subjected to judgment, it doesn't come CLOSE to the amount 'overweight' people are, healthy or not.

Yeah. Everyone's judged. Even perfectly healthy, lovely-sized women are judged. Probably because the idea of a perfectly healthy body is entirely skewed from person to person. My 'thin' could easily be another person's 'frighteningly skinny,' my 'beautifully curvy' could be another person's 'chubby.'


Another thing that makes life so great is that not only do we come in all different sizes, people see beauty in all different sizes. If that model were actually that shape (and she very clearly isn't), there would be someone who found her beautiful. Without getting into the psychology of being attracted to unhealthy ideals, isn't the idea that for every person there is, every shape there is, there is also someone out there who can appreciate its beauty - a nice one?

Beautifully said Musey! Thank you for sharing that...



From someone who needs to lose a few pounds and is having a very difficult time...it does not help for naturally thin people to criticize those who are overweight. I was just diagnosed as having low thyroid. I was happy at first because I assumed I'd start thyroid medication and I'd be able to lose weight more easily...but it doesn't work that way. It is still more difficult for me to lose weight and easier for me to GAIN weight, than someone with a normal thyroid, even on medication. This makes me feel better in one way, knowing it's not 'all my fault' - I may never be skinny or even 'thin,' but there are a lot of people with this disorder that don't even know it....so please don't categorize overweight people as being lazy, or unmotivated. Of course there are exceptions, but for a lot of us, we want to be at a normal weight, but despite eating healthy and working out, it does not come off...so 'thinnies' - please watch the 'advice' of, 'all you have to do is eat right and exercise and you will lose weight' - it's not always the case.


Just as someone with a fast metabolism is 'naturally' thin most likely has an over active thyroid (which also carries health risks and some should be medicated for this as well), some 'naturally' heavier people will have a harder time staying within a normal weight range due to low thyroid. Neither may be optimally healthy, but one is 'admired' more than the other because 'thin is in' in our culture. They are both medical conditions however and we need to be understanding of each.

 

[steph72276]

I was one of the first people to respond. I never said that a healthy person that is a size 0 or 2 is gross. Heck, I was a very healthy size 4 myself before I got pregnant. I said the abnormally alien looking photoshopped image is very gross. I have actually never seen a real human look like this in real life before. So I just wanted to be clear....this woman in the image looks gross to me, I don't think anyone visiting these boards will claim they look like this where their hips are smaller than their head, or am I wrong?

 

[diamondringlover]

Wow that is way to skinny, she doesnt look well

 

[musey]

Date: 10/7/2009 7:09:26 PM
Author:kenny

Ralph Lauren likes really really skinny models.

Since this was brought up, I was curious. Couldn't resist the opportunity for a little comparison research.

Here are some of Ralph's most-used models and their vitals (pulled from supermodels.nl).

Average Height, weight, waist circumference and BMI of women in the US:
Height (inches): 63.8
Weight (pounds): 163
Waist circumference (inches): 36.5
BMI: 28.2 - over healthy weight range by 4-5, depending on the chart

Average height, waist circumference and BMI of this sample of Ralph's models:
Height (inches): 5'10"
Weight (used Doutzen Kroes' publicized weight, since she matches the avg. height and waist measurement, so it's just a guess): 119 lbs.
Waist Circumference (inches): 24"
BMI: 17 - under healthy weight range by 1-2, depending on the chart


All that would indicate that RL models, on average, would need to gain about 10 pounds to be considered "healthy" according to the loose approximations of a BMI chart. "Normal" women would need to lose about 30 pounds to be considered "healthy."




Sasha Pivovarova


Height: 174 cm (5'8.5")
Bust: 82 cm (32")
Waist: 60 cm (23.5")
Hips: 85 cm (33")

Lily Donaldson

Height: 178 cm (5'10")
Bust: 81 cm (32")
Waist: 64 cm (25")
Hips: 89 cm (35")

Magdalena Frackowiak

Height: 180 cm (5'11")
Bust: 84 cm (33")
Waist: 62 cm (24.5")
Hips: 90 cm (35.5")

Kim Noorda

Height: 180 cm (5'11")
Bust: 84 cm (33")
Waist: 60 cm (23.5")
Hips: 90 cm (35.5")

Gisele Bundchen

Height: 180 cm (5'11")
Bust: 90 cm (35.5")
Waist: 60 cm (23.5")
Hips: 89 cm (35")

Gemma Ward

Height: 178 cm (5'10")
Bust: 81 cm (32")
Waist: 61 cm (24")
Hips: 89 cm (35")

Valentina Zeliaeva

Height: 176 cm (5'9")
Bust: 86 cm (34")
Waist: 61 cm (24")
Hips: 86 cm (33")

Solange Wilvert

Height: 180 cm (5'11")
Bust: 78 cm (31")
Waist: 60 cm (23.5")
Hips: 90 cm (35.5")

Doutzen Kroes

Height: 178 cm (5'10")
Bust: 86 cm (33")
Waist: 61 cm (24")
Hips: 88 cm (34.5")

 

[JulieN]

Musey, ought you not be looking for data on average RL model vs average fashion model?

 

[dragonfly411]

There are actually three or four of those ladies who look very healthy, and seems to me they are just tall thin women. Esp the first woman..

 

[musey]

Date: 10/8/2009 5:02:42 PM
Author: JulieN
Musey, ought you not be looking for data on average RL model vs average fashion model?

When it comes to information pertinent to the issues raised in this thread, no.

That would be an interesting comparison as well, but the most-discussed point in this thread is the idea that models (and RL models in particular, since his was the one that started the debate) are too skinny as compared to "real women." The question was raised whether skinny women/models are criticized for being unhealthy as much as those who are or may be overweight. So my interest was to see whether they warranted the same amount of criticism (if we are arguing that anyone's personal lifestyle choice warrants criticism).

I could also have simply looked at the average fashion model vs. "real women," but that would have taken much longer and I had a sneaking suspicion that the topic would be closed by the time I could finish that project.

You may do whatever sort of research you wish.

 

[niccia]

Date: 10/8/2009 1:46:16 PM
Author: purselover

Date: 10/8/2009 1:09:30 PM
Author: HollyS
My hubby (God bless him) loves a woman with more - - of everything. If he sees bones like ribs, ''chicken'' necks, clavicals, or those sharp little shoulders on an actress/model, it grosses him out. Even Giada''s lollilop head bothers him.

There is nothing beautiful about a skeleton in designer duds. And most men (real men, not designers or the odd little flamers who populate the fashion industry) agree. Gee, I wonder if that''s why everything Playboy is so popular?? Could men like women to sport some curves? Duh.

Whoa......Good thing my FI is not a real man since he loves my size 0 (sometimes even 00

) self, not even going to comment on the rest

Ditto PurseLover...I guess it''s good that there is someone for everyone, because Holly''s hubby would be grossed out by my size 0 too.
Giada does have a bit of a lollipop head lol, but I still think she is a beautiful woman with a great figure.

 

[jewelerman]

Date: 10/7/2009 10:40:56 PM
Author: FrekeChild
...

Off topic...even though his models are too thin(the photo shopped photo)I glad he still uses quality American Indian jewelry in his ad campaines!The bracelet and belt are great old vintage pieces that any collector would want in their personal collections!

 

[musey]

Date: 10/8/2009 5:12:07 PM
Author: niccia

Date: 10/8/2009 1:46:16 PM
Author: purselover

Date: 10/8/2009 1:09:30 PM
Author: HollyS
My hubby (God bless him) loves a woman with more - - of everything. If he sees bones like ribs, ''chicken'' necks, clavicals, or those sharp little shoulders on an actress/model, it grosses him out. Even Giada''s lollilop head bothers him.

There is nothing beautiful about a skeleton in designer duds. And most men (real men, not designers or the odd little flamers who populate the fashion industry) agree. Gee, I wonder if that''s why everything Playboy is so popular?? Could men like women to sport some curves? Duh.

Whoa......Good thing my FI is not a real man since he loves my size 0 (sometimes even 00

) self, not even going to comment on the rest

Ditto PurseLover...I guess it''s good that there is someone for everyone, because Holly''s hubby would be grossed out by my size 0 too.

Giada does have a bit of a lollipop head lol, but I still think she is a beautiful woman with a great figure.

I''m intrigued by this lollipop head label for Giada... she''s 5''2" and 117 lbs., smack-dab in the middle of the healthy weight range for her height. Does she still look odd? I''ve never noticed!

 

[niccia]

Date: 10/8/2009 5:15:30 PM
Author: musey

Date: 10/8/2009 5:12:07 PM
Author: niccia

Date: 10/8/2009 1:46:16 PM
Author: purselover

Date: 10/8/2009 1:09:30 PM
Author: HollyS
My hubby (God bless him) loves a woman with more - - of everything. If he sees bones like ribs, ''chicken'' necks, clavicals, or those sharp little shoulders on an actress/model, it grosses him out. Even Giada''s lollilop head bothers him.

There is nothing beautiful about a skeleton in designer duds. And most men (real men, not designers or the odd little flamers who populate the fashion industry) agree. Gee, I wonder if that''s why everything Playboy is so popular?? Could men like women to sport some curves? Duh.

Whoa......Good thing my FI is not a real man since he loves my size 0 (sometimes even 00

) self, not even going to comment on the rest

Ditto PurseLover...I guess it''s good that there is someone for everyone, because Holly''s hubby would be grossed out by my size 0 too.

Giada does have a bit of a lollipop head lol, but I still think she is a beautiful woman with a great figure.

I''m intrigued by this lollipop head label for Giada... she''s 5''2'' and 117 lbs., smack-dab in the middle of the healthy weight range for her height. Does she still look odd? I''ve never noticed!

I don''t think she looks odd, she just has a fairly round head and small shoulders which at times can look a little lollipopish I guess.

 

[musey]

^^ OH! I''m used to "lollipop head" meaning someone who''s freakishly skinny, enough so to make their head look too big for their body. Much like the original photoshopped model in this thread.

I know what you mean, now

 

[canuk-gal]

Date: 10/8/2009 5:24:28 PM
Author: niccia

Date: 10/8/2009 5:15:30 PM
Author: musey

Date: 10/8/2009 5:12:07 PM
Author: niccia

Date: 10/8/2009 1:46:16 PM
Author: purselover

Date: 10/8/2009 1:09:30 PM
Author: HollyS
My hubby (God bless him) loves a woman with more - - of everything. If he sees bones like ribs, 'chicken' necks, clavicals, or those sharp little shoulders on an actress/model, it grosses him out. Even Giada's lollilop head bothers him.

There is nothing beautiful about a skeleton in designer duds. And most men (real men, not designers or the odd little flamers who populate the fashion industry) agree. Gee, I wonder if that's why everything Playboy is so popular?? Could men like women to sport some curves? Duh.

Whoa......Good thing my FI is not a real man since he loves my size 0 (sometimes even 00

) self, not even going to comment on the rest

Ditto PurseLover...I guess it's good that there is someone for everyone, because Holly's hubby would be grossed out by my size 0 too.

Giada does have a bit of a lollipop head lol, but I still think she is a beautiful woman with a great figure.

I'm intrigued by this lollipop head label for Giada... she's 5'2' and 117 lbs., smack-dab in the middle of the healthy weight range for her height. Does she still look odd? I've never noticed!

I don't think she looks odd, she just has a fairly round head and small shoulders which at times can look a little lollipopish I guess.

HI:

Ah ha! That's why people say I look so dam skinny--I have a pointed head!!! KIDDING!!!!

I'm going to have some pie, but no whipped cream, of course

.... Anyone else?

cheers--Sharon

 

[E B]

Date: 10/8/2009 5:15:30 PM
Author: musey

I''m intrigued by this lollipop head label for Giada... she''s 5''2'' and 117 lbs., smack-dab in the middle of the healthy weight range for her height. Does she still look odd? I''ve never noticed!

I wouldn''t consider Giada a ''lollipop head'' in the way it''s generally meant (rail thin body making the head look large). After Googling her name to find a full body shot, I''d say she''s a pretty healthy weight. It looks like she''s got one heck of a noggin, though.

 

[niccia]

Date: 10/8/2009 5:26:25 PM
Author: musey
^^ OH! I''m used to ''lollipop head'' meaning someone who''s freakishly skinny, enough so to make their head look too big for their body. Much like the original photoshopped model in this thread.

I know what you mean, now

EBree''s pic explains it much better lol.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

I think that the point of the original photo is that it is so photoshopped that it is not realistic. The proportions are not obtainable vs the models that were put up on this page. Those women may be few and far between, but they do exist, and women who look like them should not be criticized the way they are. I am tall and thin, and I can't believe some of the things people say to my face.

Oh and to clarify an earlier point I read, BMI is now standard of care when evaluating children. It is done on all children over the age of two, we classify their BMI into a percentile to account for the fact that they are children (the percentile allows them to only be compared to kids of the same age and gender). Once someone has reached adolescence, and finished their growth spurt, their BMI's are pretty comparable to adults.

 

[Amethyste]

that is totally gross!!
I think that the photo has been retouched... look at her face, its kinda big for the body...

 

[cindygenit]

I don''t think we are being judgemental towards skinny women at all. I mean, these models ARE underweight and they eat very little food to maintain their figure. They try to be skinny ON PURPOSE.

The picture that OP posted actually made me think that she is way too skinny to be attractive, but I have since learned that the photo has been tampered with!

Anyway, i believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It frustrates me that threads like this always end up the same way...

Pie, anyone?

 

[hlmr]

Date: 10/8/2009 2:17:28 PM
Author: lucyandroger
I hate how these threads always devolve into bigger women calling smaller women not 'real' and smaller women calling larger women unhealthy and jealous. Luckily there are women of all different shapes and sizes and men around who love them all!

BOTH eating disorders and obesity are problems in the US. The existence of one problem doesn't negate the other. I would prefer if ads and magazines portrayed more healthy people as they are without photoshopping. But I would also like to see more variety. I think variety with an emphasis on healthy is the key.

Ahhhh, the voice of reason!

Oh, and just for the record, my husband (bless his heart)

says that I am the perfect woman!! If I weighed 2 pounds more, I would not be perfect, and if I weighed 2 pounds less, I wouldn't be perfect either.

 

[kenny]

Date: 10/8/2009 2:35:48 PM
Author: mousey
being overweight is unhealthy, and friends and family are obliged to help people change their lifestyle to be healthier.

Even though it is unhealthy I disagree about the obligation.

If people ask for help losing, or gaining, weight then it is okay to get involved.
Otherwise, the body size of another adult is none of my beeswax.

It's not that I don't care.
It's that it is my place.