Is this model pretty to you?

[steph72276]

Bravo to Chicos for that, but where they really need more "real life" models are for young girls, when self esteem is building. It would be nice for the average teenager to look at a representation of herself rather than an ideal that would take an eating disorder to achieve for 99% of the population.

 

[AGBF]

And I really doubt that posting a picture of a 350 pound woman would get as many negative comments as this super thin woman did.

As the mother of a teenager, I am dying here. Do you have any idea what is said about "fat" people? When my daughter gets really mad at me and wants to go for the jugular, what do you think she calls me? And not only does she call me fat, she goes into detail about her perceptions about where I am fat and what makes me fat!!!

PS-I do not happen to weigh 350 lbs. I am, however, an American size 14.

Deb

 

[TravelingGal]

And I really doubt that posting a picture of a 350 pound woman would get as many negative comments as this super thin woman did.

As the mother of a teenager, I am dying here. Do you have any idea what is said about "fat" people? When my daughter gets really mad at me and wants to go for the jugular, what do you think she calls me? And not only does she call me fat, she goes into detail about her perceptions about where I am fat and what makes me fat!!!

PS-I do not happen to weigh 350 lbs. I am, however, an American size 14.

Deb

Deb, all I can say is it's a good thing a mother's love is unconditional. Because I cannot ever, EVER imagine insulting my mother in that way.

 

[steph72276]

And I really doubt that posting a picture of a 350 pound woman would get as many negative comments as this super thin woman did.

As the mother of a teenager, I am dying here. Do you have any idea what is said about "fat" people? When my daughter gets really mad at me and wants to go for the jugular, what do you think she calls me? And not only does she call me fat, she goes into detail about her perceptions about where I am fat and what makes me fat!!!

PS-I do not happen to weigh 350 lbs. I am, however, an American size 14.

Deb

Deb, all I can say is it's a good thing a mother's love is unconditional. Because I cannot ever, EVER imagine insulting my mother in that way.

Ditto. I hope when she grows up, she will apologize to you. I can't ever imagine hurting my mom in that way.

 

[oranges]

And I really doubt that posting a picture of a 350 pound woman would get as many negative comments as this super thin woman did.

As the mother of a teenager, I am dying here. Do you have any idea what is said about "fat" people? When my daughter gets really mad at me and wants to go for the jugular, what do you think she calls me? And not only does she call me fat, she goes into detail about her perceptions about where I am fat and what makes me fat!!!

PS-I do not happen to weigh 350 lbs. I am, however, an American size 14.

Deb

Deb, all I can say is it's a good thing a mother's love is unconditional. Because I cannot ever, EVER imagine insulting my mother in that way.

Ditto. I hope when she grows up, she will apologize to you. I can't ever imagine hurting my mom in that way.

that is a very very low blow--- i've never even come close to saying anything that disrespectful to my mother-- or anyone, really.

 

[monarch64]

And I really doubt that posting a picture of a 350 pound woman would get as many negative comments as this super thin woman did.

As the mother of a teenager, I am dying here. Do you have any idea what is said about "fat" people? When my daughter gets really mad at me and wants to go for the jugular, what do you think she calls me? And not only does she call me fat, she goes into detail about her perceptions about where I am fat and what makes me fat!!!

PS-I do not happen to weigh 350 lbs. I am, however, an American size 14.

Deb

Hugs, Deb. I know you have been through some really trying experiences with your daughter.

 

[AGBF]

I am honestly surprised that I made this thread about myself. I was trying to make the point that fat people are very much the scapegoats of societal anger. They are still the ones who are regarded as being unable to control themselves and their appetites, who disgust others with their (supposed) self-indulgence. (A chain smoker does not elicit the same disgust for self-indulgence.) Teenagers, because they are less inhibited than Pricescope members, just show how society feels about fat people.

(I thank all of you for your support about my daughter, though. Sometimes I just forget that she is a royal pain and that I live with her ongoing emotional problems. I take it all so much for granted that when I tell a story for other reasons I forget that other people may react to her part in it!)

Hugs to all,
Deb

 

[iheartscience]

And I really doubt that posting a picture of a 350 pound woman would get as many negative comments as this super thin woman did.

As the mother of a teenager, I am dying here. Do you have any idea what is said about "fat" people? When my daughter gets really mad at me and wants to go for the jugular, what do you think she calls me? And not only does she call me fat, she goes into detail about her perceptions about where I am fat and what makes me fat!!!

PS-I do not happen to weigh 350 lbs. I am, however, an American size 14.

Deb

I don't doubt that overweight people are mocked. But I do think it's more socially acceptable to bash thin women than it is to bash heavy women. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable saying an overweight woman is disgusting or horribly unhealthy looking, even on an internet forum. And I bet most other posters here wouldn't, either. But many people clearly don't have a problem saying the same thing about a very thin woman.

Besides, with the majority of the American population now overweight, I doubt too many overweight people are being mocked these days. In another thread someone (I believe KimberlyH) said that so many kids in schools are overweight these days that they aren't teased that much.

 

[AGBF]

I do think it's more socially acceptable to bash thin women than it is to bash heavy women. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable saying an overweight woman is disgusting or horribly unhealthy looking, even on an internet forum. And I bet most other posters here wouldn't, either. But many people clearly don't have a problem saying the same thing about a very thin woman.

Besides, with the majority of the American population now overweight, I doubt too many overweight people are being mocked these days. In another thread someone (I believe KimberlyH) said that so many kids in schools are overweight these days that they aren't teased that much.

It may be more socially acceptable on an élite Internet forum where people have high incomes and discuss diamonds to "bash" the overly thin. I assure you that in most places, including most enclaves of the wealthy, it is far more acceptable to bash the overweight! One cannot even enter a store or a restaurant without being looked at askance if one is overweight! There are no clothes in good stores for the overweight. (I assured my daughter the other day that she would have no trouble in Bergdorf Goodman because size 0 would be the size in which they had most of their clothes. That and size 2. There would be a few size 4's. A couple of size 6's and maybe 1 size 8 for a large woman who happened to show up.) I mean, please! My daughter and one of her friends measure who is the thinner when they go into Starbucks! No one is obese here!!!

I recently read an article on a New York City service in a wealthy synagogue where someone looked out at all the skinny women and found it disturbing.

I read-in some piece of fiction-a character say that the smaller the dress size the larger the apartment.

Maybe some people are skinny naturally, but many wealthy people hate and despise fat and worship thin.

AGBF

 

[decodelighted]

My point is that it's socially acceptable to comment negatively on underweight women, whereas commenting negatively on overweight women is not.

I wish someone would tell SOCIETY that it is not socially acceptable to comment negatively on OVERWEIGHT women. But we're all most aware of & sensitive to experiences similar to our OWN, no? So perhaps you don't realize how far SOCIETY still has to come on that front.

When celebrity "fat jokes" aren't staples of the nightly talk show monologues -- wake me.

 

[Laila619]

My point is that it's socially acceptable to comment negatively on underweight women, whereas commenting negatively on overweight women is not.

I wish someone would tell SOCIETY that it is not socially acceptable to comment negatively on OVERWEIGHT women. But we're all most aware of & sensitive to experiences similar to our OWN, no? So perhaps you don't realize how far SOCIETY still has to come on that front.

When celebrity "fat jokes" aren't staples of the nightly talk show monologues -- wake me.

Remember the Jessica Simpson "mom" jeans incident? The poor girl isn't even close to being fat!

 

[Laila619]

And I really doubt that posting a picture of a 350 pound woman would get as many negative comments as this super thin woman did.

As the mother of a teenager, I am dying here. Do you have any idea what is said about "fat" people? When my daughter gets really mad at me and wants to go for the jugular, what do you think she calls me? And not only does she call me fat, she goes into detail about her perceptions about where I am fat and what makes me fat!!!

PS-I do not happen to weigh 350 lbs. I am, however, an American size 14.

Deb

Aww. I'm sorry. This makes me sad.

I would never insult my mom like this, but I have called a friend fat before when I was mad at her (hey, I was 12).

 

[dragonfly411]

Monarch - just jumping back in to respond. You're right, my comment was a bit extreme, but at the same time I feel not. If you watch the steady decline over time in the size of models it is a bit concerning. Think about it. Our ideal in medieval days was somewhat voluptuous. We then had the Marilyn Monroe ideal... Cindy Crawford.... and now down to girls like this being? Even Tyra was more towards my ideal than this. Then we watch shows like The Hills and The City, and the models walking down the runway are even tinier than the girls that are on the shows. Mind you, those are supposed to be wearable lines, not necessarily couture. Couture I completely understand, as it is a form of art. The ready to wear models though are tiny as well, and palid looking at times. Then we see the ads that have girls painted up to look like plastic dolls. It's really sad to see. I am much more interested in the lines (like Chico's) that promote a healthy woman and clothes that fit their daily lifestyle. I believe we had threads not too far back about the yuck ads from Ralph Lauren? Things like that are the parts that fall into my extreme definition.

 

[dragonfly411]

AGBF - I am sorry about your daughter and you are completely right about the younger generation showing what society is accepting. I hope that eventually the two of you can find peace and that she can learn to accept the beauty of naturally varying body types.


I really wish more girls would look to women like Queen Latifah, Scarlett Johannsen, Jessica Simpson, etc. as roll models. They have a healthy mindset, and love themselves for who they are.

 

[monarch64]

Ok Dragonfly, honestly I could debate the issue all day long but I already did that in my women's studies classes 10 years ago in college and also in intensive outpatient eating disorder therapy. It's nothing new, Kenny isn't bringing up a new argument that fashion is contributing to the poor mental health and body images of young women. And for the record there are plenty of "average sized" women in leadership roles for young ladies to look up to. I still don't think it's fair for the fashion industry to be labeled "sick and twisted", and furthermore, if your only role models are those twits on the Hills and Laguna Beach or whatever nonsense perhaps you should look elsewhere for guidance.

I just get tired of hearing these same arguments blaming the media, blaming the fashion industry, etc. Please. Can we not teach our daughters TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES AND HAVE THEIR OWN IDEALS of what is beautiful? Let's stop making ourselves victims and pointing fingers and hold ourselves accountable for a change.

 

[princesss]

Ok Dragonfly, honestly I could debate the issue all day long but I already did that in my women's studies classes 10 years ago in college and also in intensive outpatient eating disorder therapy. It's nothing new, Kenny isn't bringing up a new argument that fashion is contributing to the poor mental health and body images of young women. And for the record there are plenty of "average sized" women in leadership roles for young ladies to look up to. I still don't think it's fair for the fashion industry to be labeled "sick and twisted", and furthermore, if your only role models are those twits on the Hills and Laguna Beach or whatever nonsense perhaps you should look elsewhere for guidance.

I just get tired of hearing these same arguments blaming the media, blaming the fashion industry, etc. Please. Can we not teach our daughters TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES AND HAVE THEIR OWN IDEALS of what is beautiful? Let's stop making ourselves victims and pointing fingers and hold ourselves accountable for a change.

Huge freaking ditto.

I sat in a seminar in high school where one girl thought she was beautiful. ONE. Out of at least 100. I was so in awe of this girl (who was one of my closest friends) for being able to be happy when she looked in the mirror in the morning that she became one of my role models. That's pathetic. We need to find ways to teach girls that their self-worth comes from within and not from trying to look like models or acting like these ridiculous celebrities we seem to worship. Lets face is, as far as role models go, most models/celebrities aren't worth jack. There are many, MANY women worth admiring - REAL women, REAL role models, people I would be proud to meet and whose brains I would love to pick - and I've yet to see one of them on an episode of The Hills.

Monnie probably knows better than anybody here how I struggle with my weight and my self-esteem. And she can probably understand how desperately I want to disentangle them. I struggle constantly to remove my self worth from what the scale says and from how guys respond to me. I am smart, damnit. I'm funny, I'm athletic, I'm ambitious, I'm well-traveled, and I'm a hell of a fun person to be around. I'm also PAINFULLY insecure about my looks/weight. How stupid is that? If I listed qualities I liked in a friend, looks would be at the bottom. And yet, when I judge myself, they outweigh everything else. That's absurd. But if I sit back and blame the fashion industry and celebrities for my issues, I also reliquish the ability to change and grow. If I give them all of the power, I keep myself stuck in this miserable place forever. Monnie's right. Let's teach our daughters (and ourselves) to look elsewhere for role models, and hold ourselves accountable for changing our own perceptions of what bodies should be. The media will change as we change. This look is a trend that will fade at some point, and women everywhere will be trying to make their body do something else it won't do naturally. (Or, in my dream world, they won't, because they'll realize our bodies are going to be what they're going to be, and if we're eating right and being active, then our bodies will regulate themselves into being whatever size they need to be.)

But until that day comes, why give this mindset any more power by sitting around judging other women's bodies? Who gives a @#*$??? We don't have to live in their bodies and they don't have to live in ours. What theirs looks like shouldn't affect how we feel about ours, and if it does, maybe we need to find someplace else to focus our energy.

/rant

 

[OUpearlgirl]

Along with what Monarch and Princess have both said, when will people stop bashing others based on their weight? Period. The end.

Why can't we just let people be and not worry so much about another persons looks. I can't stand that to make thin women feel better, they bash overweight women. I can't stand that to make overweight women feel better, they bash thinner women. What is wrong with accepting our bodies as they are?? Can't you be beautiful, confident, and sexy at any size?

I think threads like this quickly get hypocritical. It isn't easy to be either of the extremes and I don't think we should be speaking negatively about someone because of their size. How do we know that that particular model is insecure about her own weight? Because someone is thin or looks good it doesn't mean that poking fun at them or talking negatively doesn't hurt them just as much as if she were "unattractive" or overweight.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

I think people get upset about this thread because an individual is being judged.

I was thinking about this today. I have been reading a lot of topics about obesity, and none of them are offensive. But the difference is, the articles do not put up a picture of an individual to talk about the problem and ask people to judge their appearance. Instead the focus is on the increasing rates of obesity in the population, and the long term health risks associated with it.

Kenny, if you want to bring up the problems in the modeling industry, I think it is a perfectly reasonable thing to discuss. But perhaps discussing the industry as a whole (why are girls with a very low BMI hired?), and the health problems associated with being too thin should be discussed. While there are some women who are naturally thin, it is a very very small percentage of the population. So yes, the modeling industry is full of outliers. I think it would be fair to argue that some of those women (it is impossible to know who by just looking at a picture) are below their ideal body weight. There are long term health risks to being less than your ideal body weight. And these girls may be doing unhealthy things (like smoking) to maintain it.

A discussion in those terms may not get so many people upset. Body image is an emotional subject.

 

[AGBF]

I think people get upset about this thread because an individual is being judged.

You are very smart and also very insightful. I think you hit the nail on the head, LtlFirecracker.

Deb/AGBF

 

[slg47]

. I don't like how curvy is used as a euphemism for overweight.

THANK YOU! I am also 'curvy' but not 'overweight'.

 

[Kaleigh]

Lightfirecracker hit it spot on.. It's a person that is being judged..

I for one was painfully thin growing up. In HS I ate a full hot lunch while my friends, had diet coke and an apple... My brother was the same way.. He was rail thin, and unfortunately turned to steroids to bulk up... He did get quite big, but that was the end for him. He went way down hill, contracted aids and died.

Not sure my post means anything.. Just that people who are thin get judged as harshly or more harshly than those that are over weight?? People that are over wieght, they say hey it's a health issue, a gland is out of wack..

When someone is thin?? It's their choice, they don't eat..

That's simply not true.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Along with what Monarch and Princess have both said, when will people stop bashing others based on their weight? Period. The end.

Why can't we just let people be and not worry so much about another persons looks. I can't stand that to make thin women feel better, they bash overweight women. I can't stand that to make overweight women feel better, they bash thinner women. What is wrong with accepting our bodies as they are?? Can't you be beautiful, confident, and sexy at any size?

I think threads like this quickly get hypocritical. It isn't easy to be either of the extremes and I don't think we should be speaking negatively about someone because of their size. How do we know that that particular model is insecure about her own weight? Because someone is thin or looks good it doesn't mean that poking fun at them or talking negatively doesn't hurt them just as much as if she were "unattractive" or overweight.

I think people get upset about this thread because an individual is being judged.

I was thinking about this today. I have been reading a lot of topics about obesity, and none of them are offensive. But the difference is, the articles do not put up a picture of an individual to talk about the problem and ask people to judge their appearance. Instead the focus is on the increasing rates of obesity in the population, and the long term health risks associated with it.

Kenny, if you want to bring up the problems in the modeling industry, I think it is a perfectly reasonable thing to discuss. But perhaps discussing the industry as a whole (why are girls with a very low BMI hired?), and the health problems associated with being too thin should be discussed. While there are some women who are naturally thin, it is a very very small percentage of the population. So yes, the modeling industry is full of outliers. I think it would be fair to argue that some of those women (it is impossible to know who by just looking at a picture) are below their ideal body weight. There are long term health risks to being less than your ideal body weight. And these girls may be doing unhealthy things (like smoking) to maintain it.

A discussion in those terms may not get so many people upset. Body image is an emotional subject.

Ditto to both.

And really, back to the "What if" of putting up a picture of a 350 lb. woman - if someone did do that, I think we would see far less responses overall. I think it's really easy to jump on the "bash the skinny woman" wagon than it is to jump on the "bash the fat woman" wagon. And I think that says a lot about what we perceive to be ok - it's ok to bash the skinnies because they had a conscious choice in deciding to become that way, through dieting, eating disorders, etc., but it's not ok to bash fat people because there are tons of possibly mitigating, unknowable factors, like family predispositions. Ultimately, there will always be skinny and fat people who "consciously" chose their shapes, and there will always be skinny and fat people who are just naturally built that way.

I just don't see the point in going through this argument again and again.

 

[AGBF]

I just don't see the point in going through this argument again and again.

Well...when I suggested that posting a picture of a woman and asking everyone if he thought she was attractive was not my favorite way to spend my time in Hangout, I got accused of trying to control others. I will reiterate, however, that it is not my favorite way to spend my time. I also want to note that it was the photograph of a woman, not a man, whose body was put up for discussion. Does anyone remember the Hugh Hefner discussion of a few days ago? Mr. Hefner claimed that women were, "sex objects". I said that that-being objects-was our past, but that it did not have to be our future. Yet here we all are, pulled into a massive discussion on a woman's looks again. Why?

I agree with LtlFirecracker that all the issues of modeling and weight can be discussed without our having to put up the picture of a woman and giving her grades on her appearance.

Deb/AGBF

 

[kenny]

I just don't see the point in going through this argument again and again.

Well...when I suggested that posting a picture of a woman and asking everyone if he thought she was attractive was not my favorite way to spend my time in Hangout, I got accused of trying to control others. I will reiterate, however, that it is not my favorite way to spend my time.

(Kenny's reply Then don't do it.)


I also want to note that it was the photograph of a woman, not a man, whose body was put up for discussion. Does anyone remember the Hugh Hefner discussion of a few days ago? Mr. Hefner claimed that women were, "sex objects". I said that that-being objects-was our past, but that it did not have to be our future. Yet here we all are, pulled into a massive discussion on a woman's looks again. Why?

:

Why?
Because appearanceism is running wild in our culture now, harming us all, and this is an important subject.
Today we all, and especially women, are discriminate against based on how they look.

Just today I noticed in the July 26,2010 issue of Newsweek on pg. 46 there is an article called,"The Beauty Advantage - In today's economy, looking good is no longer something we can dismiss as frivolous or vain. How beauty can affect your job, your career, your life."

It also says:
"61% of hiring managers surveyed by Newsweek said it's advantageous for a woman to show off here figure in the workplace.
...
57% of corporate managers said landing a job is harder the an unattractive candidate.
...
60% of overweight women and 40% of overweight men said they've experienced employment discrimination.
...
59% of hiring managers said they'd advise job candidates to spend as much money on looks as on their resume."

End of quotes.

I want to puke.
Our culture really has a problem, and apparently it harms women more than men.
Appearanceism - really makes me mad!

 

[AGBF]

Yet here we all are, pulled into a massive discussion on a woman's looks again. Why?

Why?
Because appearanceism is running wild in our culture now, harming us all, and this is an important subject.

Kenny, so the reason for the massive discussion of a woman's looks, initiated by you (a man) was to help to end, "appearanceism"?

If "appearanceism" was on your mind when you looked at that photo, why didn't you just say that? I just don't get it.

AGBF

 

[LadyBlue]

Why?
Because appearanceism is running wild in our culture now, harming us all, and this is an important subject.
Today we all, and especially women, are discriminate against based on how they look.

I want to puke.
Our culture really has a problem, and apparently it harms women more than men.
Appearanceism - really makes me mad!

If this is truth, why do you criticize a women base in her appearance? Why do you post the picture of someone and start asking about her looks. If you think that women should not be stereotype base on her looks, treads like this make people do exactly what you said makes you puke .

 

[kenny]

Yet here we all are, pulled into a massive discussion on a woman's looks again. Why?

Why?
Because appearanceism is running wild in our culture now, harming us all, and this is an important subject.

Kenny, so the reason for the massive discussion of a woman's looks, initiated by you (a man) was to help to end, "appearanceism"?

If "appearanceism" was on your mind when you looked at that photo, why didn't you just say that? I just don't get it.

AGBF

You have to be in the group to have a thought or hold a discussion about it.

Imagine if only black people could point out slavery was wrong.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

I just don't see the point in going through this argument again and again.

Well...when I suggested that posting a picture of a woman and asking everyone if he thought she was attractive was not my favorite way to spend my time in Hangout, I got accused of trying to control others. I will reiterate, however, that it is not my favorite way to spend my time.

(Kenny's reply Then don't do it.)


I also want to note that it was the photograph of a woman, not a man, whose body was put up for discussion. Does anyone remember the Hugh Hefner discussion of a few days ago? Mr. Hefner claimed that women were, "sex objects". I said that that-being objects-was our past, but that it did not have to be our future. Yet here we all are, pulled into a massive discussion on a woman's looks again. Why?

:

Why?
Because appearanceism is running wild in our culture now, harming us all, and this is an important subject.
Today we all, and especially women, are discriminate against based on how they look.

Just today I noticed in the July 26,2010 issue of Newsweek on pg. 46 there is an article called,"The Beauty Advantage - In today's economy, looking good is no longer something we can dismiss as frivolous or vain. How beauty can affect your job, your career, your life."

It also says:
"61% of hiring managers surveyed by Newsweek said it's advantageous for a woman to show off here figure in the workplace.
...
57% of corporate managers said landing a job is harder the an unattractive candidate.
...
60% of overweight women and 40% of overweight men said they've experienced employment discrimination.
...
59% of hiring managers said they'd advise job candidates to spend as much money on looks as on their resume."

End of quotes.

I want to puke.
Our culture really has a problem, and apparently it harms women more than men.
Appearanceism - really makes me mad!

But is that really new, or specific to our culture? I mean, I think the relative success of attractive people (regardless of what the standards for attractiveness were at a given time) is pretty established. Maybe we see it more because we have access to instantaneous media, social networking, reality TV, internet...but I don't think appearanceism is anything new to us.

And yes, you may be right that it's running wild now. Maybe with all the sources for information and entertainment that we do have, it's easier to see it, and it's easier for such appearance-based judgments to propagate, but I don't necessarily think so. I mean, women were changing the shape of their bodies drastically centuries ago by lacing themselves up in corsets. Women who didn't have an hourglass figure could claim to be victims of appearanceism even back then. And then there was the powdered-wig fad, the conical medieval hats fad, the ruffles fad. There was the "we like plump, well-fed women because it's a sign of wealth" period in most countries. And those who do not conform to whatever norm of the period could say that appearanceism is at fault. So no, I don't think it's just today that this has been a problem. I certainly hope we're more AWARE of it, due to all the media. But I don't think it's anything new to this century, decade, etc.

 

[OUpearlgirl]

Kenny, "appearancism" runs rampant for a whole host of reasons. I'm busty, blonde, and well put together. I've been judged harshly before because to some people I look like a dumb blonde. That's life, everyone gets stereotyped at some point.

Appearance in the workplace to me seems like an entirely different argument.

 

[iheartscience]

kenny-I said it before and I'll say it again since you didn't respond to my first post. If those serious issues are what you wanted to discuss, you should have started a topic about them. I'd love to have a conversation about how appearance affects both men and women in the workplace, dating world, etc.. I'd love to talk about the obesity epidemic, the pressure on young girls to conform to a beauty ideal that most people won't ever attain naturally, etc.

That said, posting a photo of a super tall, super thin girl wearing a corset and asking if she was pretty is about as far as you can get from starting an intelligent conversation on "appearanceism." Based on your original post, I find it HIGHLY unlikely that starting a dialogue about "appearanceism" was your motive.