Is our society incapable of debating real issues?

[Gloria27]

Asking for marking of the unvaccinated or vaccinated to make a " a distinction", asking for locking up the unvaccinated and denying them healthcare or basic human rights?

What is this topic about, what's next? repeating history?

 

[qubitasaurus]

Not sure who you are talking to here. I don't think anyone would dispute that having deep and meaningful access to the primary data is better than a summary from any media source -- including trash sources like reddit gossip. Reputable media quote (EDIT: identify) their source. Most scholarly literature lives behind a "pay wall" where lay readers can not access it but students and faculty of an academic institution can readily see it. I bet that fewer than 1% of the population can understand, let alone interpret, the primary data on COVID-19 infection and epidemiology.

There are trash/predatory journals and vanity journals that publish a huge fraction of the international literature -- and no one reads it or cites it. There are "good" journals -- and the Pulitzer-winning news media (you know who they are) know which outlets to follow. They reach out to the actual scientists. I have vetted many of these media interactions.

I've been thinking about this as I somewhat expected the response.

The pipe line by which science ends up in the media, is usually that the paper gets listed to a prerprint server or gets published. The scientist then writes a press release with their institutions press officer, and this goes to EurekaAlert. In general it is my experience that the news papers typically cut and paste fragments of text from EurekaAlert to form an article. If you like, then you can often find a closer to first hand account on EurekaAlert. It'll be written for a public audiance too.

Its also quite likely you'll find the paper available freely online as well -- theyre actually not behind paywalls so much any more. There was a big push for open access about 8 years ago and many can be found freely online through the journal (it is now standard for a publication fee to be payed for open access). While not all journals are like this; the original authors also maintain the right to their original manuscipt before submission (typically they own all versions before the journal copy editor touches it) and will post to their respective community arxivs. I think medicine and biomed may be the medrxiv. And biology the biorxiv. Analytical sciences (physics, maths, comp sci) are the cornell Arxivs. Actually this is what most people read, whether they have a subscription or not as the paywalls are atrociously fickle to move through even when you have legitimate access. The information is there -- it is freely available and most people really are trying to make it as easy as possible to read. If you want something then it is often just a matter of opening google scholar and typing the title in (the link will appear on the right hand side) It's quite clever it finds most things.

 

[BMI]

@qubitasaurus
^ Thank you for this information, very helpful to me!

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

I've been thinking about this as I somewhat expected the response.

The pipe line by which science ends up in the media, is usually that the paper gets listed to a prerprint server or gets published. The scientist then writes a press release with their institutions press officer, and this goes to EurekaAlert. In general it is my experience that the news papers typically cut and paste fragments of text from EurekaAlert to form an article. If you like, then you can often find a closer to first hand account on EurekaAlert. It'll be written for a public audiance too.

Its also quite likely you'll find the paper available freely online as well -- theyre actually not behind paywalls so much any more. There was a big push for open access about 8 years ago and many can be found freely online through the journal (it is now standard for a publication fee to be payed for open access). While not all journals are like this; the original authors also maintain the right to their original manuscipt before submission (typically they own all versions before the journal copy editor touches it) and will post to their respective community arxivs. I think medicine and biomed may be the medrxiv. And biology the biorxiv. Analytical sciences (physics, maths, comp sci) are the cornell Arxivs. Actually this is what most people read, whether they have a subscription or not as the paywalls are atrociously fickle to move through even when you have legitimate access. The information is there -- it is freely available and most people really are trying to make it as easy as possible to read. If you want something then it is often just a matter of opening google scholar and typing the title in (the link will appear on the right hand side) It's quite clever it finds most things.

Can't like this enough!!!!!!

It's the one truly amazing things about qthe internet (Am I the only one who had to search articles on microfiche in the library in HS/ undergrad??)


But then this


Old meme proves to be right for 99%
Of the people ....


I'm really oscillating between saying" yes, I agree, I think it's much worse" and then remembering human society has always known the literal witch hunts where group think led to lynching (christians in Rome, pest in Europe, Salem to name just the three that popped into my mind first).

I'm very disappointed that humankind seems incapable to learn.


But then I've read this sentence by E.H. Gombrich in his epilogue to a 'Little history of the world" written in 1935 in Vienna , Austria: "It offers little variety, and it is nearly always the unpleasant things that are repeated, over and over again."

And somehow that author (one of the most brilliant minds of the 20 th century IMHO) managed to keep an overall optimistic outlook . So I can do it , too... Right?


Sigh

( If anyone needs a good read, please read that book!!)

 

[LilAlex]

Actually this is what most people read, whether they have a subscription or not as the paywalls are atrociously fickle to move through even when you have legitimate access.

This is not correct for the high-profile journals in biomedicine. If you know what they are, you can look for yourself and see that this is inaccurate. Not all academic disciplines are the same.

There were servers that illegally pirated protected content but they were largely shut down by legal action.

You can find all kinds of crap on unrefereed servers.

I live in this world and am very familiar with it.

 

[LilAlex]

Asking for marking of the unvaccinated or vaccinated to make a " a distinction", asking for locking up the unvaccinated and denying them healthcare or basic human rights?

Distinguishing between the vaccinated and unvaccinated? Yes, of course. Have you never been denied something based upon your personal information? Ever applied for a credit card, home loan, job, or rent a car...? This is nothing new or nefarious. We are not all faceless, interchangeable, unaccountable shells. We are different peopele who make different choices.

"Locking up the unvaccinated" -- how on earth did you make the hilariously large leap to that? Too much of a certain network (nitwork) for you! I don't even know what you are talking about.

Wait, what about burning the unvaccinated at the stake -- can you make a meme about how that's all anyone on PS talks about now?

 

[Gloria27]

Distinguishing between the vaccinated and unvaccinated? Yes, of course. Have you never been denied something based upon your personal information? Ever applied for a credit card, home loan, job, or rent a car...? This is nothing new or nefarious. We are not all faceless, interchangeable, unaccountable shells. We are different peopele who make different choices.

"Locking up the unvaccinated" -- how on earth did you make the hilariously large leap to that? Too much of a certain network (nitwork) for you! I don't even know what you are talking about.

Wait, what about burning the unvaccinated at the stake -- can you make a meme about how that's all anyone on PS talks about now?

There are so many allarmist (intrusive, inappropriate, etc) threads here that I've probably replied to the wrong one. One's fears should not be spread virally, really, it doesn't do any good.
Yes, there was talk about denying hospitalization to people who are not vaccinated and restricting them to go places, basically lockdown since in lockdown you can get the basic stuff but nothing else.
My bad for saying locking up instead of locking down.
Two tier society on the horizon? It's been done before...just saying...

 

[Gloria27]

Gloria, if someone refuses to get a vaccine that will protect themselves and others during this pandemic why do you have an issue with preventing them from going to public places risking (their and) others safety? They shouldn’t be allowed to eat in a restaurant or go to a show. They can get the vaccine but they refuse to do so. That’s on them. Do as you please but don’t put others at risk with your behavior. It really is that simple.


Vaccines save lives. Vaccines eradicated smallpox and polio. And if everyone who medically could would get vaccinated we would be through this pandemic instead of where we are now.

I am all for classic vaccines, masks and social distancing, but this mrna stuff is not exactly a classic vaccine is it. Doesn't keep you from getting the virus, getting sick or passing it on.
Also it seems to kill/ injure a lot of people, when compared to the anti Tetanus vaccine for example, look it up.

I'm pro choice, please don't make it so that there is no choice, that is not good for anyone in the long run.

 

[missy]

Gloria, if someone refuses to get a vaccine that will protect themselves and others during this pandemic why do you have an issue with preventing them from going to public places risking (their and) others safety? They shouldn’t be allowed to eat in a restaurant or go to a show. They can get the vaccine but they refuse to do so. That’s on them. Do as you please but don’t put others at risk with your behavior. It really is that simple.


Vaccines save lives. Vaccines eradicated smallpox. And if everyone who medically could would get vaccinated we would be through this pandemic instead of where we are now.

ETA Adding this. Smallpox wouldn't be eradicated today if we had the mindset then that we have now.

Fauci: Smallpox wouldn’t have been eradicated with today’s ‘false information’

Anthony Fauci said on Saturday that he thinks smallpox and polio would still be spreading in the U.S. if today’s “false information” were present then.”If you look at the extraordi…

thehill.com

I am all for classic vaccines, masks and social distancing, but this mrna stuff is not exactly a classic vaccine is it. Doesn't keep you from getting the virus, getting sick or passing it on.
Also it seems to kill/ injure a lot of people, when compared to the anti Tetanus vaccine for example, look it up.

I'm pro choice, please don't make it so that there is no choice, that is not good for anyone in the long run.

MRNA vaccines have been studied for a long time. They are not new. I am on the go so cannot link studies but they are safe.

Pro choice regarding vaccination is fine when you don't affect others. This is not the same thing. Your choice (not to get vaccinated) hurts everyone. Can't you see that?

 

[Austina]

One's fears should not be spread virally, really, it doesn't do any good.

You mean like Covid? That hasn’t done a lot of people any good either, they died from it, or have been left with Long Covid!

 

[MrsBlue]

I am all for classic vaccines, masks and social distancing, but this mrna stuff is not exactly a classic vaccine is it. Doesn't keep you from getting the virus, getting sick or passing it on.
Also it seems to kill/ injure a lot of people, when compared to the anti Tetanus vaccine for example, look it up.

I'm pro choice, please don't make it so that there is no choice, that is not good for anyone in the long run.

Types of vaccine

vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk

This link shows how different types of vaccines work. Lots of vaccines aren't "classic" but they work just fine. Notice that the tetanus vaccine works in a completely different way and can't be compared at all to covid vaccines. Apples and oranges.

mRNA vaccines work. The covid vaccines don't completely eliminate your chances of getting sick but they reduce severe illness and reduce your chances of winding up in the hospital. We can't get stuck on the idea of classic treatments because medical technology is always evolving. mrna vaccines are the next step just like insulin and chemotherapy were at one time.

 

[Gloria27]

They are just starting to discover what other effects the s protein has on the body and if it crosses the blood brain barrier. Science hasn't cracked up how the immune system works in its entirety, otherwise they would have cured lupus, ms, rheumatoid arthritis etc.

 

[Austina]

The conditions you mention are not capable of causing a global pandemic, that’s the difference. Whilst they are awful for those suffering from them, they are not transmissible to the public at large, causing them to need hospitalisation, intubating and death. Covid has galvanised the scientists to work together to find a vaccine to get this under control. Vast amounts of money have been ploughed in to the development of a vaccine because of the huge and devastating effect Covid has had on the world.

 

[Gloria27]

The conditions you mention are not capable of causing a global pandemic, that’s the difference. Whilst they are awful for those suffering from them, they are not transmissible to the public at large, causing them to need hospitalisation, intubating and death. Covid has galvanised the scientists to work together to find a vaccine to get this under control. Vast amounts of money have been ploughed in to the development of a vaccine because of the huge and devastating effect Covid has had on the world.

Those conditions are all immune system issues, with unknown cause because the immune system is not known 100%, they can't even cure allergies....no one knows the long term effects of these vaccines, claiming otherwise is a lie.
Also private pharmaceutical companies are making loads of money on them, hence the gold rush to make more or new ones and altough the vaccines are free, they will be paid with public money.
I'll stop here and go back to gems, cause that's why 'm here.

 

[seaurchin]

Debating pressing, important public issues gets endlessly frustrating because so many people don't know that much about a topic before forming strong opinions about it, and are too busy trying to defend their position and "win" the discussion to learn more.

However, I'm also quite sure that some people DO change their beliefs based on the new information they receive, even if it takes a while and even if they never come back and admit it lol. (I know this because I have done so many times myself).

 

[MrsBlue]

Well at least we're illustrating the point of the OP!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Well at least we're illustrating the point of the OP!

Yes, but you guys scared another opposition away. @Gloria27 gave up too easily.

 

[Calliecake]

Stating facts sometimes has that effect @Dancing Fire. When your knowledge comes from Facebook posts it’s difficult to stand up to comments that are rooted in science.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Stating facts sometimes has that effect @Dancing Fire. When your knowledge comes from Facebook posts it’s difficult to stand up to comments that are rooted in science.

I'm not a member of FB.

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

Yes, we are sadly incapable of debating real issues. No one seems to respect other people's rights to their own opinions anymore. You can disagree with someone and not hate them. In fact, being open minded can open up a whole new world of possibilities for all parties involved.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Yes, we are sadly incapable of debating real issues. No one seems to respect other people's rights to their own opinions anymore. You can disagree with someone and not hate them. In fact, being open minded can open up a whole new world of possibilities for all parties involved.

I had been the most hated PSer for the past 10 yrs.

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

I had been the most hated PSer for the past 10 yrs.

I don't hate you at all DF! (Hugs)

 

[Dancing Fire]

I don't hate you at all DF! (Hugs)

I'm not on your ignored list?

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

I'm not on your ignored list?

Nope, I don't have anyone on ignore.

 

[doberman]

Although I agree that it's never been easy in any society, I think we have currently reached an unprecedented level of inability to deal with real issues due to a combination of things. A small group of wealthy, influential people have had tremendous success in controlling cultural, economic, and policy narratives in governments and in influential media for a few decades now - not necessarily a new thing in itself - and that success is largely due to the tremendous reach they've been able to have, initially in radio, then in cable "news," and now on the internet, that is very new and that we as a species are not equipped cognitively, psychologically, or culturally to cope with. Our brains and bodies are still functioning in hunter-gatherer mode, and can't handle all the ways that our physical and societal and cultural environments have changed - hence we see societies that can't handle issues, a horrendous level of chronic diseases our far-reaching ancestors didn't even have words for because they never saw them, even in the elders that reached ripe old ages, and a small group of people that wield unprecedented levels of wealth, resources, and power over the rest of us, in great part because of their ability to manipulate our "monkey" minds and keep us fighting each other, rather than coming after them.

Amen. Perfectly stated.

 

[missy]

I am all for classic vaccines, masks and social distancing, but this mrna stuff is not exactly a classic vaccine is it. Doesn't keep you from getting the virus, getting sick or passing it on.
Also it seems to kill/ injure a lot of people, when compared to the anti Tetanus vaccine for example, look it up.

I'm pro choice, please don't make it so that there is no choice, that is not good for anyone in the long run.

Much of what you wrote above is not fact.

Here are some facts. You might note this scientific journal article was written back in 2018.

mRNA vaccines — a new era in vaccinology

mRNA vaccines represent a promising alternative to conventional vaccine approaches because of their high potency, capacity for rapid development and potential for low-cost manufacture and safe administration. However, their application has until recently ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"

Safety​

The requirement for safety in modern prophylactic vaccines is extremely stringent because the vaccines are administered to healthy individuals. Because the manufacturing process for mRNA does not require toxic chemicals or cell cultures that could be contaminated with adventitious viruses, mRNA production avoids the common risks associated with other vaccine platforms, including live virus, viral vectors, inactivated virus and subunit protein vaccines. Furthermore, the short manufacturing time for mRNA presents few opportunities to introduce contaminating microorganisms. In vaccinated people, the theoretical risks of infection or integration of the vector into host cell DNA are not a concern for mRNA. For the above reasons, mRNA vaccines have been considered a relatively safe vaccine format."


Two more recent articles.

Debunking mRNA Vaccine Misconceptions—An Overview for Medical Professionals

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"The rapid development of the vaccines was possible due to the nature of mRNA vaccine production and the many years of preclinical and clinical development. All that is required for development is knowledge of the sequence of the antigen, in this case, the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein. Following their development, these vaccines underwent the same FDA review steps that all drugs are required to go through. The review process was quicker than normal due to the urgency of this pandemic. No steps were omitted in this process."

COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines Are Generally Safe in the Short Term: A Vaccine Vigilance Real-World Study Says - PubMed

AEFIs of COVID-19 mRNA vaccines were generally non-severe local or systemic reactions. A prior allergy history is the risk factor for anaphylaxis, while a history of anxiety may link with severe neurological AEs. Such vaccine recipients need further evaluation and monitor.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Over 1.8 million doses of the COVID-19 vaccine had been administered in the US until December 2020, and around 0.2% submitted AE reports to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS).
AEFIs of COVID-19 mRNA vaccines were generally non-severe local or systemic reactions."


Gloria, it is true we don't know what we don't know but MRNA technology has been around for a while and all evidence points to it being very safe. When faced with getting Covid and dying or taking a life saving vaccine it really is not a difficult decision. We all need to get the vaccine in order to end this. It will be a yearly vaccine and IMO eventually if you do not get the vaccine you probably will end up getting Covid. And how severe that might be is a turn of the roulette wheel IMO. Are you willing to take that risk?

The risk vs benefit of the vaccine is clear if you look at all the evidence. Of course it is up to you unless mandates happen and in that case you will have another decision to make. Smallpox would still be here if people then had the same mindset as (too) many people do today. Think about that for a moment. Smallpox. And it is gone. Why? Because of a life saving vaccine.

 

[Gloria27]

I am all for classic vaccines, masks and social distancing (just saying I'm not an anti vaxxer)FACT, but this mrna stuff is not exactly a classic vaccine is it?(read the label) FACT. Doesn't keep you from getting the virusFACT, getting sick FACT or passing it on.FACT
Also it seems to kill/ injure a lot of peopleFACT, when compared to the anti Tetanus vaccine for example, look it up(I did).FACT

I'm pro choice, please don't make it so that there is no choice, that is not good for anyone in the long run.

@missy

 

[missy]

FACT
@Gloria27
Covid 19 kills way more people than the vaccine ever will. No Comparison.

COVID-19 is killing more Americans than guns, cars and flu combined

COVID deaths also outpaced heart disease and cancer as the country’s top killer.

fortune.com

FACT
Since the start of the pandemic, the WHO has recorded more than 3.8 million deaths from COVID-19 worldwide (covid19.who.int/)

Fact Check-More people have not died from COVID-19 vaccines than from the disease itself

A social media post has incorrectly claimed that more people have died from COVID-19 vaccine than from the disease itself.

www.reuters.com

FACT
COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective.

COVID-19 Vaccine: What You Need to Know

Now that COVID-19 vaccines are authorized, here are the facts you need now.

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

Some more facts vs myths for those who really care about the facts.

Busting 12 Covid-19 Myths That Could Kill

Throughout the pandemic we have told ourselves stories that were convenient truths until proven false—mythologizing a virus when it needed rigorous, evidence-based demystifying. Here's where we went wrong and how we can fix it.

www.forbes.com

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,
You cannot have a decent discussion nowadays because the country , as a whole has focused on "rights" for he past 50 yrs. We have decided that equal means whatever I do and think, it i just as good as what you do and think. Minority "rights" seem to have overtaken the conversation, while "white rights' have become a bid for supremacy and considered racist at every turn.

Republicans dominate the south now-a-days, while the democrats held the south captive, with the same philosophy 50 years ago. They just switched names.

The sides become more extreme with each passing year. Gov't will break down and leaders such as we have recently seen will come forward because chaos will demand authoritarian people to gain order. I think we live in a fantasy world where we think we can have everything. Criticism is rampant about everything..

I'm tired of the whole thing.

Annette

 

[LilAlex]

Interesting to note that the demographic group most likely to be unvaccinated -- whether right or left -- is the group that reports that it gets most of its "news" from Facebook.

Maybe someone here knows the percent of FB traffic that is deliberate misinformation from foreign actors' bot farms but I know that it is not small and it is highly influential. There is an art and a science to crafting a meme or a fake news story that will catch fire.

The people who "do their own research" on the vaccine are generally listening to the modern equivalent of leaflets dropped by the enemy. It's not that they are unintelligent; it's that they are carefully studying an encyclopedia of pure fantasy.