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Is our society incapable of debating real issues?

missy

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A fist with a woman’s face facing a fist with a man’s face over COVID-19 viruses

COVID-19 cases are climbing and sanity is declining. Here are seven cognitive distortions I routinely see when it comes to talking about SARS-CoV-2.
1. Misusing Both-Sidesing
Both-sidesing occurs when the media present two sides as equally valid, when one in fact is wrong. It gives false equivalence to a flawed idea. For instance, a debate on whether the earth is round or flat would be both-sidesing.

However, if you introduce pandemic restrictions that have never or rarely been implemented before -- travel bans, school and business closures, mask mandates, and military enforced lockdowns (as in Australia) -- it is inevitable some smart people will feel the harms outweigh the benefits, and equally inevitable that other smart people will feel we aren't doing enough. In these cases, having a forum to debate the ideas is not both-sidesing, but rather the legitimate purpose of media and universities.
Recently, dueling editorials -- one by MedPage Today Editor-in-Chief Marty Makary, MD, and Cody Meissner, MD, which argued against masking children in schools, and one by Kanecia Zimmerman, MD, and Danny Benjamin, MD, which argued in favor -- came out in the Wall Street Journal and New York Times, respectively. CNNcovered both sides in a brief television debate, interviewing Meissner and Benjamin. Bring popcorn!

Some commenters labeled the coverage "both-sidesing" -- because they felt Meissner's position was demonstrably wrong. Yet Meissner's view is the current position of the U.K., which despite various mitigation strategies has never mandated masking for kids younger than 12, and where only some secondary schools have reintroduced masking after mandates were lifted in May. Benjamin's position, meanwhile, is consistent with the CDC's in recommending masking kids as young as 2 years old.

I've written on this topic elsewhere, but my point here is about the misuse of "both-sidesing."
Our society is more and more incapable of debating real issues. We are not only certain of our positions, we view the clash of ideas as a threat. More than any specific issue, I am worried about people who are so fragile they cannot bear to hear opinions that conflict with their own. Calling real debates both-sidesing is a cognitive distortion.
2. Doing It for Fame and Clicks
No matter what the topic or issue, and no matter what position someone holds, I have seen someone allege that person A is only saying this or that for the clicks or likes or fame.
Really?
This allegation gets levied all the time, and I pity people who genuinely believe the world can be divided into people who share your views, and who reached them through pure reasoning, and those who disagree with you, who must have ulterior motives or are out for some secondary gain.

I would venture to say that it is almost pathological to think like this. The truth is human beings are motivated by many things, and it is impossible on any issue that all who think one way are good, and all who think another way are bad. The real problematic bias -- the one that can be dealt with -- is financial conflict of interest.
When it comes to COVID-19, there are real conflicts -- being paid by testing companies is just one example. The companies that make COVID tests want to sell those tests, naturally, so one might wonder if an epidemiologist who recommends that vaccinated, asymptomatic, masked students get tested weekly -- as they are doing at Stanford -- is affected by money they receive for consulting for testing companies. No conflict exists if someone holds those very same views while working for a local department of public health (that department has no financial skin in the game).

Clicks and likes can certainly influence anyone, and have probably led everyone to hold slightly more extreme positions than they otherwise would, but largely this pushes in all directions, and does not work as a net vector of bias, as financial conflicts do.
The bottom line is this: the idea that your motivations are pure but those who disagree with you are tainted is a cognitive distortion. Revisit it.
3. The Burden of Proof
Last week, generating controversy, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) tweeted this: "Babies and young children study faces, so you may worry that having masked caregivers would harm children's language development. There are no studies to support this concern."
Like many, I found the claim odd.
It would be one thing to argue that on balance the potential benefits of masking outweigh the harms for baby caregivers, but to discount the concern entirely -- citing "no studies" -- seems hard to defend. In the history of humanity, I am aware of no careful study of babies sent to day care for 8-10 hours, who do not see the bottom portion of caregivers' faces and the long-term outcomes for such babies. Such data would be needed to confidently assert there are no downsides with respect to speech or language development. (A prior MedPage Today essay discusses this notion of confirmation bias beautifully.)

In fact, this idea: to whom does the burden of proof fall -- is a recurring blunder throughout the pandemic. There are two principles worth articulating. One, in emergency circumstances, states and other actors can institute untested interventions in the face of novel threats. But two, if these interventions continue or repeat, year after year, at some point, it is incumbent on the entity or person asserting the intervention to prove that the net benefits outweigh the harms.
The person who repeatedly asks you to disrupt your life -- at some point -- has to show that a given disruption has some net benefit. When it comes to babies and language development, I think in year 2 of mask-wearing at day cares, careful studies must be launched to rule out a modest decrement from caregiver use, and the list goes on and on.
4. Look What Happened to Tom or Jane

Anecdotes are powerful in shaping human minds, but they are prone to emotional response. An anecdote without a sober and methodical appraisal of data can lead to erroneous thinking. Social media abuses anecdotes in all directions: on issues I agree with and vehemently disagree with. But in both cases, I often think that emotional appeal of anecdotes is unfair -- even if it furthers a cause I like. We must make our case solely on the merits of the argument or policy.
5. Ideas Are dangerous
Many commentators on twitter are quick to label factual ideas or predictions dangerous if those ideas are seen to support policy choices they disagree with. Recently, Andy Slavitt wrote that many experts believe it is now inevitable that everyone will someday acquire SARS-CoV-2, and this was labeled a dangerous view.
If you think vaccinated people should isolate to avoid spreading SARS-CoV-2, then any idea that suggests they will get the virus eventually runs counter to your narrative. A person may wonder: Why should I continue to deprive myself if getting the virus is inevitable? (Note: this does not apply to an unvaccinated person who has a high risk of severe outcomes or death that would markedly fall if they were vaccinated.) The idea is only dangerous if you already assume that vaccinated people staying home is a good thing.

If instead, you think that vaccinated people should take reasonable precautions, but have to try to get back to life as much as possible because -- as they say, time's a-wasting -- then the idea that they may someday acquire SARS-CoV-2 and thankfully not get as sick as they otherwise would (after all they have been vaccinated) is not that dangerous. It is just a statement of what many experts believe.
A dangerous idea is too often used to describe an idea that erodes support for your policy recommendation. But using it in this way is a cognitive distortion.
6. 'My Colleagues All Agree With Me'
There is an old saying: If your friends share all your ideas, they aren't your ideas. Nowhere is this more true than with SARS-CoV-2. It is fascinating how we have created party platforms out of COVID policy, with partisan splits over lockdowns, school closures, masks, hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and the origins of the virus.

Why can't there be a mixing and matching of our pandemic views? Lockdowns require far more study, and we have no idea under what circumstances they may work. School closure is the most disruptive policy choice and should only be considered when approaching health systems failure. Masking is reasonable in some settings, but we need to run randomized studies to know exactly at what ages and in what scenarios. Ivermectin is being tested in several large ongoing randomized trials, but probably doesn't work. That's nothing against it specifically, just a statement of fact that most drug trials are negative. And, yes, let's put it to bed: hydroxychloroquine doesn't work for COVID. Finally, I have no idea if lab leak did or did not happen, but I do know that censoring debate on the topic was awful.
Being able to hold views that sometimes dovetail with your peers and colleagues, but not always, is the hallmark of independent thinking and appraisal of evidence. Instead I worry that even the professional classes -- folks with doctorates -- have devolved into tribal creatures lusting for blood when they see a view that falls outside their preferred platform.

7. Punishing People for Holding Ideas
It's tiring to go online and read the repeated calls for someone to be fired for something they may have said. Amazingly, often it is the first time I am learning that this person even exists!
I only hear the name of some popular radio, television, or podcast personalities when they say something that results in calls for their expungement. Then I can only find a fractured 15-second clip, and before it plays an ad comes up, and next thing I know I'm closing my browser.
I learned about boycotts in history class, and I don't doubt that they are a reasonable way to achieve change. But, I doubt our ancestors imagined that social media would result in the age of perpetual boycotts, where someone or some brand would be boycotted for a 280-character text. But here we are. It is probably fair to say that we have overused this little trick. Next time you hear something you dislike, just silently move on.
 

TooPatient

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I should clarify that I believe there are individuals who are capable. It is just society in general that can't. You grab 100 random people and try it out, it will likely fail. Personally, I feel like this is partially due to the fact that people feel safe enough to disagree. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. It isn't necessarily a good thing either. The same pressure to eliminate hate and bigotry can also creep into differing views in other areas people feel strongly about.

Hence my short answer that it is not possible in our society.
 

OboeGal

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no more so than any society has ever been IMO

Although I agree that it's never been easy in any society, I think we have currently reached an unprecedented level of inability to deal with real issues due to a combination of things. A small group of wealthy, influential people have had tremendous success in controlling cultural, economic, and policy narratives in governments and in influential media for a few decades now - not necessarily a new thing in itself - and that success is largely due to the tremendous reach they've been able to have, initially in radio, then in cable "news," and now on the internet, that is very new and that we as a species are not equipped cognitively, psychologically, or culturally to cope with. Our brains and bodies are still functioning in hunter-gatherer mode, and can't handle all the ways that our physical and societal and cultural environments have changed - hence we see societies that can't handle issues, a horrendous level of chronic diseases our far-reaching ancestors didn't even have words for because they never saw them, even in the elders that reached ripe old ages, and a small group of people that wield unprecedented levels of wealth, resources, and power over the rest of us, in great part because of their ability to manipulate our "monkey" minds and keep us fighting each other, rather than coming after them.
 

Slickk

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Although I agree that it's never been easy in any society, I think we have currently reached an unprecedented level of inability to deal with real issues. I think that is due to a combination things. A small group of wealthy, influential people have had tremendous success in controlling cultural, economic, and policy narratives in governments and in influential media for a few decades now - not necessarily a new thing in itself - and that success is largely due to the tremendous reach they've been able to have, initially in radio, then in cable "news," and now on the internet, that is very new and that we as a species are not equipped cognitively, psychologically, or culturally to cope with. Our brains and bodies are still functioning in hunter-gatherer mode, and are not equipped to handle all the ways that our physical and societal and cultural environments have changed - hence we see societies that can't handle issues and a horrendous level of chronic diseases our far-reaching ancestors didn't even have words for because they never saw them, even in the elders that reached ripe old ages.

68F74781-07C4-4B0F-9326-2E7AF275B65D.gif I couldn’t have said this better AF9474CA-EC40-4E92-8E4C-C8FADAA446CA.gif
 

marymm

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I realize other people think this is the very worst of times never before experienced by the human race.

I think the digital age has served as a magnifier of what has always been present in human societies -- what is happening now broadly speaking has happened before and will happen again ad infinitum until the end of our civilization on Earth -- I think this is evidenced by the history of humankind.
 

Matata

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Although I agree that it's never been easy in any society, I think we have currently reached an unprecedented level of inability to deal with real issues due to a combination of things. A small group of wealthy, influential people have had tremendous success in controlling cultural, economic, and policy narratives in governments and in influential media for a few decades now - not necessarily a new thing in itself - and that success is largely due to the tremendous reach they've been able to have, initially in radio, then in cable "news," and now on the internet, that is very new and that we as a species are not equipped cognitively, psychologically, or culturally to cope with.

The thesis of Alvin Toffler's Future Shock come to life.
 

MissGotRocks

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Ill have to give this some deep thought

I have never had a problem expressing my own opinion when asked but to me the world seems less tolerant of differing opinions these days

It also largely depends upon the source of the information from which you are formulating your opinion.
 

LilAlex

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It is different now. It has never been amicable and money always had a finger on the scale. But I have never seen it so accepted and commonplace (for the last 4+ years) that people with no factual knowledge of a problem feel that they are on equal footing with the well-informed.

This has not affected "both sides equally" -- although the uninformed have been told that it has :lol-2:.
 

qubitasaurus

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Actually i don't understand why every issue is becoming so politicised. People seem to subscribe to ideologies of the political party they support or whatever community they identify with. And then they argue as if anything presented against the idea is an attack against this entity/group identity.

Such conversations are typified by no actual statistics to back up the claim, no theory or causal mechanism built on established conclusion others have already verified, no data or link to more rigorous analysis, and an over reliance on X says (i.e. a call to authority which turns out to be a public announcement or news article. But upon reading the article you realise none of the information is substantiated or linked to anything which gives you the details of the data set, how it was collected, or the analysis used to form the conclusion). Actually it's like smoke, you go to think about it for 10 minutes and there isn't anything tangible there to assess. It's all just an echo chamber with people stating uninformed opinions and getting confirmation from other people quoting their opinions back at them.
 

missy

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For me the short answer is yes. But of course all people are not the same. There are many level headed individuals with common sense. But as a whole society is bleak with their group think. Facts seem to mean less than ever before. Scary but true. Having never lived through another time I cannot say for sure if society was always like this but I feel we have reached a new low.
 

LilAlex

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Such conversations are typified by no actual statistics to back up the claim, no theory or causal mechanism built on established conclusion others have already verified, no data or link to more rigorous analysis, and an over reliance on X says (i.e. a call to authority which turns out to be a public announcement or news article. But upon reading the article you realise none of the information is substantiated or linked to anything which gives you the details of the data set, how it was collected, or the analysis used to form the conclusion).

Really? Most Americans can not even read a simple graph -- but you think they will parse the primary data? SPSS, SAS, R, or just plain ol' Excel?

The people yelling that they want to see the data are increasingly just saying "You can't tell me what to do!" These are the same people who have ignored the data on every hazard in the world and now demand to see the data for this latest hazard. (They do not want to see the data; they just want to point out that you don't know it.) Seatbelts, tobacco, alcohol, opioid abuse, single-vehicle accidents in F-150s, gun safety (risk of self-harm and accidental discharge vs likelihood of "being a hero"), you name it -- there are plenty of data here. "Show me the data" on masking in schools, social distancing, etc. We may never have unconfounded data on those since people with poor judgment neither mask not vaccinate.

"Show me the data" is the brand-new battle cry of those lacking common sense. Hah! I don't have to anything sensible and obvious because there is no special study that proves it. We do lots of obvious things without great "data." There are no randomized controlled trials that pressure stops bleeding and saves lives (it does), that the Heimlich maneuver works (it does), that having and using a brake pedal (or obeying a STOP sign) can prevent a car crash, that jumping out of the way of an oncoming car in a crosswalk can keep you out of the hospital. Where there are no data -- and that is a lot of life -- we rely on experts to give us their best advice. And when there are data, we rely on experts to interpret it for us and separate the wheat from the chaff.

This is like when @monarch64 was seething over my geographically associating the use of the expression "y'all" with COVID prevalance. So I showed the actual primary data demonstrating this association. There was no "I guess you were right." Just crickets :cool2:. "Show me the data" is just a deflection from one's bad behavior now.

Also, data are not necessarily evidence. Family member used his "mathematician" skills to determine which of two medical procedures was better. There were no randomized head-to-head comparisons so no amount of massaging the data could allow one to ascertain which procedure was "better." (There was enormous selection bias in the case series -- people with certain features almost always got procedure A and with other features almost always got Procedure B.) He "knew more than his doctors" and insisted on the wrong-for-him procedure. This is like developing cardiac chest pain over the weekend and knowing that Monday ER visits have higher mortality so you decide to wait 'til Tuesday. It's not that Monday is inherently a bad day to go to the ER; it's that the Monday people have already waited too long at home over the weekend! And waiting 'til Tuesday is just making things worse.

If you are reading news sources that quote unverifiable or unreported data sources, then change your media consumption -- it's very easy. One major media outlet in the US routinely quotes random low-level bloggers, athletes, political think tank doomsday robots, and D-list celebs as their "evidence" that the nation is "ballistic" over some minor action. These are the web equivalent of front-page stories. Why do I care what some know-nothing loudmouth thinks about masking or Afghanistan? Other media outlets quote leading scientists and scholars in the field. These two approaches are not the same.
 

qubitasaurus

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Really? Most Americans can not even read a simple graph -- but you think they will parse the primary data? SPSS, SAS, R, or just plain ol' Excel?

The people yelling that they want to see the data are increasingly just saying "You can't tell me what to do!" These are the same people who have ignored the data on every hazard in the world and now demand to see the data for this latest hazard. (They do not want to see the data; they just want to point out that you don't know it.) Seatbelts, tobacco, alcohol, opioid abuse, single-vehicle accidents in F-150s, gun safety (risk of self-harm and accidental discharge vs likelihood of "being a hero"), you name it -- there are plenty of data here. "Show me the data" on masking in schools, social distancing, etc. We may never have unconfounded data on those since people with poor judgment neither mask not vaccinate.

"Show me the data" is the brand-new battle cry of those lacking common sense. Hah! I don't have to anything sensible and obvious because there is no special study that proves it. We do lots of obvious things without great "data." There are no randomized controlled trials that pressure stops bleeding and saves lives (it does), that the Heimlich maneuver works (it does), that having and using a brake pedal (or obeying a STOP sign) can prevent a car crash, that jumping out of the way of an oncoming car in a crosswalk can keep you out of the hospital. Where there are no data -- and that is a lot of life -- we rely on experts to give us their best advice. And when there are data, we rely on experts to interpret it for us and separate the wheat from the chaff.

This is like when @monarch64 was seething over my geographically associating the use of the expression "y'all" with COVID prevalance. So I showed the actual primary data demonstrating this association. There was no "I guess you were right." Just crickets :cool2:. "Show me the data" is just a deflection from one's bad behavior now.

Also, data are not necessarily evidence. Family member used his "mathematician" skills to determine which of two medical procedures was better. There were no randomized head-to-head comparisons so no amount of massaging the data could allow one to ascertain which procedure was "better." (There was enormous selection bias in the case series -- people with certain features almost always got procedure A and with other features almost always got Procedure B.) He "knew more than his doctors" and insisted on the wrong-for-him procedure. This is like developing cardiac chest pain over the weekend and knowing that Monday ER visits have higher mortality so you decide to wait 'til Tuesday. It's not that Monday is inherently a bad day to go to the ER; it's that the Monday people have already waited too long at home over the weekend! And waiting 'til Tuesday is just making things worse.

If you are reading news sources that quote unverifiable or unreported data sources, then change your media consumption -- it's very easy. One major media outlet in the US routinely quotes random low-level bloggers, athletes, political think tank doomsday robots, and D-list celebs as their "evidence" that the nation is "ballistic" over some minor action. These are the web equivalent of front-page stories. Why do I care what some know-nothing loudmouth thinks about masking or Afghanistan? Other media outlets quote leading scientists and scholars in the field. These two approaches are not the same.

Im mildly amused as I don't think I said most or these things . Truthfully the raw data file probably will do nothing for me or you. It's like staring at code, when you needed to understand the algorithm. The code may be clean, but it is unlikely I will find any problems with the algorithm out by just reading someone else's code.

What is important is the paper which did the analysis. It's the primary source for this information, that is being used to substantiate the claim. It will likely have a data availability clause (tends to depend on the field) but more importantly it should explain exactly how it determined the results it is reporting. It is often possible to look at when/how the data was collected, whether it was cleaned, what type of analysis was done on it, and read the discussion for caveats and comparisons to other studies which may have found a different conclusion. Usually this is enough information to at least understand what is being claimed, even if it is only tentatively. This is a lot better than what you'll get out of most other sources, and it definitely won't hurt anyone to have a go at understanding a slightly more technical format; often I/they'll learn something. If you've ever tried to do the same thing from an announcement/talk/ reddit post/even many popular press articles then it's distinctly painful. The information actually isn't there (in many cases it's a data processing inequality). I usually find it almost impossible to reach the same level of clarity (this doesn't preclude a few sources from being better, but most really arent.).
 
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LilAlex

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This is a lot better than what you'll get out of most other sources, and it definitely won't hurt anyone to have a go at understanding a slightly more technical format; often I/they'll learn something. If you've ever tried to do the same thing from an announcement/talk/ reddit post/even many popular press articles then it's distinctly painful. The information actually isn't there (in many cases it's a data processing inequality). I usually find it almost impossible to reach the same level of clarity (this doesn't preclude a few sources from being better, but most really arent.).

Not sure who you are talking to here. I don't think anyone would dispute that having deep and meaningful access to the primary data is better than a summary from any media source -- including trash sources like reddit gossip. Reputable media quote (EDIT: identify) their source. Most scholarly literature lives behind a "pay wall" where lay readers can not access it but students and faculty of an academic institution can readily see it. I bet that fewer than 1% of the population can understand, let alone interpret, the primary data on COVID-19 infection and epidemiology.

There are trash/predatory journals and vanity journals that publish a huge fraction of the international literature -- and no one reads it or cites it. There are "good" journals -- and the Pulitzer-winning news media (you know who they are) know which outlets to follow. They reach out to the actual scientists. I have vetted many of these media interactions.
 
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Karl_K

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nope were not.
Not possible.
Actually never has been.
Always comes down to flying birds, even if they are just mental flying birds.
 

Dancing Fire

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For me the short answer is yes. But of course all people are not the same. There are many level headed individuals with common sense. But as a whole society is bleak with their group think. Facts seem to mean less than ever before. Scary but true. Having never lived through another time I cannot say for sure if society was always like this but I feel we have reached a new low.
Like DF! :praise: Missy, if I believe everything you posted about Covid I should be dead by now, but you know I still love ya!
 

missy

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Like DF! :praise: Missy, if I believe everything you posted about Covid I should be dead by now, but you know I still love ya!

Please quote facts @Dancing Fire with exactly what I posted that would have caused your death if you believed it.

Sadly, your post above, is the perfect example of why I started this thread. As a society many of us (and in this case the specific you @Dancing Fire ) are incapable of discussing real issues in an intelligent and thoughtful manner.
 

Karl_K

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Please quote facts @Dancing Fire with exactly what I posted that would have caused your death if you believed it.

Sadly, your post above, is the perfect example of why I started this thread. As a society many of us (and in this case the specific you @Dancing Fire ) are incapable of discussing real issues in an intelligent and thoughtful manner.
2 sets of birds flying!
 

musicloveranthony

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It's impossible to debate with people who are proud to be wrong. They mistake opinions for fact and they don't realize when they're being lied to. I pity them for the fact that predatory politicians and clout-chasers (most of whom I'm confident are actually vaccinated despite the bile rhetoric they spew) value their own bank accounts and follower counts more than they value the lives of their followers.
 

seaurchin

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I'd guess there have always been plenty of boneheads and kooks among us. It's probably just a lot more noticeable when there are urgent public issues- and, of course, when they're being manipulated through a massive fascist propaganda campaign.
 
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Austina

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I think if nothing else, Covid has shown us that with every issue there’ll be 2 very distinct sides. I don’t know why, but I thought when this started, bearing in mind it’s a global pandemic, that everyone would be interested in doing the right thing, not just the right thing for them. I couldn’t have been more wrong, and it’s pretty evident from some of the threads, that it’s impossible to have a reasoned dialogue with some people, even when presenting facts.

The old saying that “there are none so blind as those that will not see” can also be rewritten to include those so deaf they won’t listen, and those so stupid, they won’t understand.
 

Dancing Fire

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You know, one can drive too fast while drunk without a seatbelt and do just fine for a while. Lots of people do that. As they say on the finance forums, "Do not confuse a good outcome with a good strategy."
52 yrs is long time. The last time I took a vaccine shot was 1969. People should get vaccinated if they feel it will protect him/her from Covid.
 

LilAlex

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52 yrs is long time. The last time I took a vaccine shot was 1969. People should get vaccinated if they feel it will protect him/her from Covid.

Once again, do not confuse a good outcome with a good strategy. I can't write it any slower for you :P2. It may not translate well so I am not sure that you understand what this expression is saying.

"I ain't dead yet" is your go-to rebuttal. Note that it works in every situation -- not just for COVID. It even works for Russian roulette. It convinces no one and makes you sound like a toddler.

Gotta give you credit for all your shameless attention-seeking, though. Anti-vaxxers have never felt so listened-to and important! "The whole world revolves around me and and my uninformed decision!" Meanwhile, the rest of the vaccine-deprived world laughs at us (well, at you, but I am stuck in this leaky boat with you).

Has COVID really been around for 52 years? Is that what is behind your false confidence? Feels like it, thanks to you and yours, but I think it is shorter. Do you recall the last pandemic that killed so many millions? You were not alive and there was no vaccine.

Your past vaccine foolishness didn't hurt the world too much. I wish that you could see that this one is different (open a newspaper -- any newspaper) -- but it seems to be beyond your grasp.
 
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