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Is anyone else feeling sick about what’s happening in the world?

missy

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Problems with solutions that can only be a choice between bad and worse need to take into account many perspectives. If we put boots on the ground in Ukraine, shouldn't we also engage in war with all those countries committing genocide? Palestine and Israel have been killing each other for decades, which side should we choose there? What good would come from a war between China and Russia and the US and our allies?

These are heavy decisions being weighed among leaders of the free world who know more about the issues and potential ramifications than most ordinary citizens. I don't envy them the task ahead. They probably wish they could lead with their hearts and they understand why they cannot and they also know they will bear the consequences for their decisions. They are going to be criticized and demonized whatever the outcomes.

We won't rediscover our humanity among the rubble of nuclear waste.

Elie Weisel also said:

"There are times when we are powerless to prevent injustice, but there must never be a time when we fail to protest."

The free world is protesting; countries are skirting international law and agreements to aid Ukraine; the Swiss have revoked their neutrality, the first time since 1939, and are supplying weapons to Ukraine. These are not meaningless actions nor can they be portrayed as standing by and letting innocent people die.

We will see where this ends up. But I’m firmly on the side of doing more. It’s complicated sure. But every day more people are dying because we’re not doing more. I can’t rationalize that away. I’m not saying you are. I’m just sharing how I feel.

And we are not powerless. I’m confident if Elie Weisel were here he’d feel we could and should do more as well.
 

Matata

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We will see where this ends up. But I’m firmly on the side of doing more. It’s complicated sure. But every day more people are dying because we’re not doing more. I can’t rationalize that away. I’m not saying you are. I’m just sharing how I feel.

I think the world owes both of us a debt of gratitude that we are not the ones who will resolve the problem. I would have nuked Russia on day 1 and you would have hugged them to death :mrgreen:
 

missy

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I think the world owes both of us a debt of gratitude that we are not the ones who will resolve the problem. I would have nuked Russia on day 1 and you would have hugged them to death :mrgreen:

I’m with you here. Definitely nuke the bast**d.
And I’m up for a hug anytime ❤️ (not from Putin)
 

missy

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Matata

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@nala, I found the discrimination from border guards and European countries toward people of color fleeing Ukraine particularly soul searing. Racism conquers compassion even in the face of war. I don't know how to process that reality.
 

nala

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Of course it is heartbreaking to watch. I was especially heartbroken when I saw the video clips of Ukrainians preventing Black people from boarding their trains or sheltering themselves with the others. Even at a time like this, racism is alive and well. My pity only extends so far. Americans lives should not be sacrificed for another country’s choices. We are NOT TEAM AMERICA! Check out that movie if you haven’t seen it. I’m sure we are keeping an eye on Putin so that he doesn’t become the next Hitler, but to act preemptively is to jeopardize all of our lives for another country’s choice.
 

nala

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@nala, I found the discrimination from border guards and European countries toward people of color fleeing Ukraine particularly soul searing. Racism conquers compassion even in the face of war. I don't know how to process that reality.

Omg! I just posted about that!!
 

Matata

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missy

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I was especially heartbroken when I saw the video clips of Ukrainians preventing Black people from boarding their trains or sheltering themselves with the others. Even at a time like this, racism is alive and well.

I didn’t see that clip. But please don’t paint with a broad brush. All Ukrainians are not racist. There are racists in every country. Every city. Everywhere. Unfortunately racism will never die.


Racism conquers compassion even in the face of war. I don't know how to process that reality.

I know how I process that reality. Because people SUCK. Period. Not all people. But many people. I’ll never accept that as ok but it is a fact. And why I prefer animals to many (most?) people.
 

nala

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I didn’t see that clip. But please don’t paint with a broad brush. All Ukrainians are not racist. There are racists in every country. Every city. Everywhere. Unfortunately racism will never die.




I know how I process that reality. Because people SUCK. Period. Not all people. But many people. I’ll never accept that as ok but it is a fact. And why I prefer animals to many (most?) people.

Ummm. I sure can describe what I see. Just like you can attribute it to human nature. We will have to agree to disagree. But you can do your own research and see for yourself.
And nope. Don’t want to lose American lives for another country’s war. Hopefully you did read the other link I posted bc it also focuses a lot on the bias many feel for Ukraine bc they are white. Not painting with a broad brush, just highlighting to bring awareness.
 
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nala

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Do you mean that all Ukrainians are racist? I will do research but don’t believe that is true. That’s like me saying all French people are Anti Semitic. Which I know is not true. Yes France might be thought of as an anti semitic country but I won’t go into that. But I know many French people who are wonderful. So yeah I’m not blaming the people for the politics.

But yes I’ll do further research Nala because I like to come from an informed place.

No. I never said that. I don’t speak in absolutes. You did.
 

missy

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No. I never said that. I don’t speak in absolutes. You did.

Sorry I was editing and accidentally deleted.
I don’t speak in absolutes. Much of life is in shades of gray as far as I’m concerned.

Except when evil is happening and then yes it’s clear to me what is the right thing (in my view) to do. To stop Putin in this case.

But to answer your post above.
Like I wrote racism is alive and well EVERYWHERE. There’s no escaping it.


What’s happening is appalling and heartbreaking. And I am at a loss for words which doesn’t happen often.
 

nala

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Sorry I was editing and accidentally deleted.
I don’t speak in absolutes. Much of life is in shades of gray as far as I’m concerned.

Except when evil is happening and then yes it’s clear to me what is the right thing (in my view) to do. To stop Putin in this case.

But to answer your post above.
Like I wrote racism is alive and well EVERYWHERE. There’s no escaping it.



What’s happening is appalling and heartbreaking. And I am at a loss for words which doesn’t happen often.

Why haven’t we stopped Kim Jong-un?
 

missy

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Why haven’t we stopped Kim Jong-un?

Good question. I feel sick about everything that’s happening in the world. I personally compartmentalize for my survival.
 

nala

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Good question. I feel sick about everything that’s happening in the world. I personally compartmentalize for my survival.

Exactly. Read the link I posted. Explains a lot about why some people are so ready to fight for Ukraine but not against other atrocities being committed. I mean. We just have to look in our own backyard to see the suffering and pain of all the undocumented survivors who are trying to escape their countries; they endure so much only to be deported or rejected or put in cages. Some are sent back and are killed immediately. Are we expected to fix every problem created by other countries? Wouldn’t that makes us an empire? Wouldn’t that liken us to Team America?
 

missy

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Exactly. Read the link I posted. Explains a lot about why some people are so ready to fight for Ukraine but not against other atrocities being committed. I mean. We just have to look in our own backyard to see the suffering and pain of all the undocumented survivors who are trying to escape their countries; they endure so much only to be deported or rejected or put in cages. Some are sent back and are killed immediately. Are we expected to fix every problem created by other countries? Wouldn’t that makes us an empire? Wouldn’t that liken us to Team America?

I don’t disagree with you Nala. There are no easy answers. I did read your link. It turns my stomach. It makes me physically ill.

I also agree I don’t want a nuclear war because no one wins with that tactic. I’m not in politics for a reason. It’s a dirty business.

I hope we can continue putting great pressure on Russia and somehow change Putin’s mind. All he cares about is power. We have to tread carefully with him but we must continue doing what we can to stop him. I don’t have answers. But I know we have to do more.
 

missy

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Matata

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change Putin’s mind

I think he's gone mad. There's currently no foreseeable way out of this for him that allows him to save face. A citizen of Europe posting on another site I belong to made good points about why Putin must be eliminated by his people that I won't go into here. I agree with that option is the best one.
 

missy

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I think he's gone mad. There's currently no foreseeable way out of this for him that allows him to save face. A citizen of Europe posting on another site I belong to made good points about why Putin must be eliminated by his people that I won't go into here. I agree with that option is the best one.

Honestly I always thought he was mad. But you know that quote...in a fight it is better to be crazy than smart. And yes that would be the cleanest and best way possible to end this. End Putin.
 

Matata

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Screen Shot 2022-03-03 at 9.07.51 PM.png
 

Gloria27

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Exactly. Read the link I posted. Explains a lot about why some people are so ready to fight for Ukraine but not against other atrocities being committed. I mean. We just have to look in our own backyard to see the suffering and pain of all the undocumented survivors who are trying to escape their countries; they endure so much only to be deported or rejected or put in cages. Some are sent back and are killed immediately. Are we expected to fix every problem created by other countries? Wouldn’t that makes us an empire? Wouldn’t that liken us to Team America?
When was the last time America engaged in a war on it's own territory?
 

missy

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From the NYT opinion piece.

"

A campaign of terror​

The war in Ukraine is a mismatch.​
On one side is the Russian military, among the world’s largest and strongest forces. On the other side is Ukraine, a medium-sized country whose infrastructure is being destroyed during the fighting. Although Ukraine has powerful allies — like the U.S. and Western Europe — those allies have chosen not to send troops, partly because they do not see Ukraine as vital to their national interests and because they fear starting a larger war with nuclear-armed Russia.​
The reality of this mismatch explains the developments of the past 48 hours. After some surprising setbacks in the first few days of the invasion, Russia has since used brutal tactics, often targeting civilians, to make progress.​
Russian troops have taken control of areas in both the east and south of the country. In the east, Russia is hoping to isolate — and then crush — Ukrainian forces that for years have been battling Russia-backed separatists near the Russian border. In the south, the goal appears to be to control the Black Sea coast, potentially cutting off Ukraine from sea access.​
mail
Russian-occupied areas as of 3 p.m. Eastern on March 2. | Source: Institute for the Study of War​
Russia has also intensified its bombing of Ukraine’s two largest cities, Kyiv and Kharkiv, from planes and missile launchers stationed outside the cities. (Here’s footage of bombs hitting a residential area of Chernihiv, a city on the route to Kyiv from the north.)​
The strategy, my colleague Eric Schmitt said, is “to terrorize the population and force them to flee, or beg their government to surrender — and to pummel Ukrainian government buildings to disrupt their wartime operations.”​
The humanitarian disaster is likely to increase in the coming days. “We cannot collect all the bodies,” the deputy mayor of Mariupol, a southern city, told CNN. The mayor said that the electricity was out and that Russia was blocking food from entering the city.​
More than a million Ukrainians, out of a population of about 40 million, have fled. Many have headed west, away from the areas where Russia is advancing, in the hope of entering bordering countries like Poland or Romania. A million more people are internally displaced.​
Lviv, the largest city in western Ukraine, is filled with people carrying suitcases, according to Valerie Hopkins, a Times correspondent there. Hotels are cramming people into rooms so that they do not need to sleep at the train station. Valerie spoke with one 20-year-old woman traveling with her mother who had packed only three sweatshirts, a pair of socks and her dog. The two of them had left everything else behind.​

Russia’s challenges​

It still seems possible that Russia will not be able to win a quick victory.​
Russia does not yet control the skies over Ukraine, and its military is struggling to make much progress in the north, near Kyiv. A miles-long convoy of hundreds of military vehicles has largely stalled, about 18 miles from Kyiv. It is facing fierce Ukrainian opposition, as well as shortages of fuel and spare parts, a reflection of the failure to conquer Kyiv immediately.​
Morale among Russian troops may also be a problem. Pentagon officials told Eric that some Russian soldiers appeared not to have known that they would be invading Ukraine until the war began. Ukrainian officials quoted what they claimed was a Russian soldier’s text to his mother, recovered from his phone after he died: “There is a real war raging here. I’m afraid. We are bombing all of the cities together, even targeting civilians.”​
The U.S., E.U. and Britain are continuing to send arms to Ukraine’s military, over land routes. And the West has continued to impose sanctions, which seem to be inflicting significant damage on Russia’s economy.​
All of which raise the prospect that the war, which already seems to be somewhat unpopular within Russia, will become even more so.​

‘No matter what’​

Still, Vladimir Putin is signaling that he will respond to setbacks with more destruction. He also seems willing to allow Russia to pay a high price, in both economic terms and soldiers’ lives.​
During a 90-minute call yesterday with French President Emmanuel Macron, Putin said that Russia would achieve its goal in Ukraine “no matter what.” In a televised address yesterday, Putin told Russians that he was determined to fight the war.​
Paul Poast, a political scientist at the University of Chicago, pointed out on Derek Thompson’s “Plain English” podcast that Russian leaders have a long history of accepting large casualties among their own troops to win wars. “I’m starting to think that that is what they’re expecting is going to happen here,” Poast said. “It doesn’t matter about the morale, it doesn’t matter if the equipment breaks down. They’re just going to be able to overwhelm eventually the Ukrainians because they don’t expect direct military involvement by the West.”​
There are other plausible outcomes, though. The Ukrainian resistance could prove so stout that Russia finds itself in a yearslong quagmire. Or Western sanctions could create such instability in Russia that Putin loses support among the officials around him.​
Regardless, the coming weeks are likely to be filled with tragedy for Ukraine.​

As Voltaire said,
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”


There are no winners here. The question is how many more will die? How many more brutal atrocities will be committed? When will it end? How will we remember this? And our role (or lack of) in helping.

As JFK said,
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

But of course we must always bear in mind the price. There is a price either way.

Albert Einstein
 

missy

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When was the last time America engaged in a war on it's own territory?

 

Gloria27

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It was a rhetorical question ...but hey, nuke em', right?
 

missy

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It was a rhetorical question ...but hey, nuke em', right?

Not them. Putin. That’s the only evil person I’m interested in stopping. At the moment.
 

missy

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Gloria27

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Not them. Putin. That’s the only evil person I’m interested in stopping. At the moment.

Missy, I understand but it's impossible to nuke just one person, isn't it?

Kenny is having fun I see, well played, it's actually funny.
 
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