heart and arrow determination-whiteflashes a cut above vs. hearts on fire

[targa]

I''m curious about stones that are heart and arrow cut. i think i understand that they are cut with "ideal proportions" and this can be determined by looking at the specifications on the sarin report. But what makes certain vendors give there stones a trademark named h&a pattern.
Is whiteflashes a cut above H & A better than an ideal h&a stone viewed on the idealscope? is hearts on fire better because of their machine generated process? does whiteflash cut their own h&a stones?
just a bit confused about what premium should be given to these.
thanks

 

[Regular Guy]

Targa,

Not sure but if you''re not already familiar with this thread, you may find it helpful. I understand WF works closely with one manufacturer who does all their ACAs for them, such that they''re effectively commissioned, partnered or may as well be on the payroll. Lots of other threads here will compare these two branded brands, with most, as I recall, favoring WF over HoF, always on cost (no contest, with HoF having a substantially higher premium), and with WF having usually at least equal standing on quality, for those that make descriptive comparisons.

 

[belle]

link about aca
link about h&a branded/non branded

in my opinion, hof is not better...in any way. i have compared hof directly with aca and while the hof are indeed beautiful, the 50%+ premium is not anywhere near worth it. i can get a more consistent cut and exactly what i want in an aca.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 11/29/2005 5:29:15 PM
Author:targa
I''m curious about stones that are heart and arrow cut. i think i understand that they are cut with ''ideal proportions'' and this can be determined by looking at the specifications on the sarin report. But what makes certain vendors give there stones a trademark named h&a pattern.
Is whiteflashes a cut above H & A better than an ideal h&a stone viewed on the idealscope? is hearts on fire better because of their machine generated process? does whiteflash cut their own h&a stones?
just a bit confused about what premium should be given to these.
thanks

First, there are many terms being intermingled here, so let''s make sure we''re on the same page:

Stones cut with ideal proportions are just that: stones who''s measurements fall within the ranges outlined by labs who consider such measurements optimal. Not all stones with ideal proportions will qualify as H&A stones (although most will have some semblance of the pattern).

H&A stones refer to stones that display the H&A pattern. The term has gotten widely abused because there is no standard and no regulation on the use of the term. Therefore, a stone that one vendor may sell and represent as an H&A stone may be rejected as an H&A stone by another vendor. Having the H&A pattern doesn''t guarantee strong light performance.......but it makes sense that most cutters wouldn''t waste their time creating a precision H&A pattern on diamonds that are only mediocre performers, right?

ACA stones are Whiteflash''s proprietary version (brand) of H&A stones. Brian, WF''s 5th generation cutter, provides the specifications for such stones to the cutting house that works them. They are cut according to his specifications. If you read the WF tutorial on Hearts & Arrows, you''ll see that Brian''s standard for what constitutes H&A is very exacting on things like uniformity of the spacing, clefts in the hearts, separation of the heart from the arrowhead, etc, etc..... If the pattern isn''t absolutely precise, the stone doesn''t make the grade and isn''t branded an ACA.

Hope this helps.

 

[targa]

ok, i think i understand that an ideal stone is one that qualifies based on the grading labs criteria and that H& A patterns are not part of that criteria. however,
1. wouldn''t all h&a stones have to qualify as ideal given there precise cut pattern symmetry?
2. also, isn''t it possible that an ideal stone supplied by a "regular vendor" (non-branded) could be an h & a pattern?
3. does h & a patterning guarantee maximum brilliance or excellent light performance?
4. do h&a stones always sit between 1 to 2 on the HCA?
thanks again

 

[belle]

Date: 11/29/2005 6:57:56 PM
Author: targa
ok, i think i understand that an ideal stone is one that qualifies based on the grading labs criteria and that H& A patterns are not part of that criteria. however,
1. wouldn't all h&a stones have to qualify as ideal given there precise cut pattern symmetry?

no. optical symmetry is not graded by labs. link to symmetry...lab graded/optical

Date: 11/29/2005 6:57:56 PM
Author: targa
2. also, isn't it possible that an ideal stone supplied by a 'regular vendor' (non-branded) could be an h & a pattern?

it is possible. however, there are also very poorly cut stones that show some h&a patterning. 'ideal' does not = h&a and h&a does not = ideal.

Date: 11/29/2005 6:57:56 PM
Author: targa
3. does h & a patterning guarantee maximum brilliance or excellent light performance?

no. the overall cut does, including depth, table, crown/pavilion angles..etc. precise h&a patterning is a visual benefit.

Date: 11/29/2005 6:57:56 PM
Author: targa
4. do h&a stones always sit between 1 to 2 on the HCA?

no. see #2 above. it is well cut stones with proven proportions that will score well on the hca.

 

[targa]

belle, i''m learning a tremendous amount from you-thanks.

1. would a stone that has both--ideal proportions based on gia/ags standards and shows h&a patterns-- then qualify for maximizing it''s light performance?
ie, if you have an ideal gia stone, h&a pattern, and a low HCA score could you still go wrong on the cut?

for example:

1.546 ct
depth 60.6
table 55
crown angle 34.9
pavilion angel 40.7
thin/med girdle
7.49-7.52 X 4.54
polish/symmetry ideal
point culet 0.4%

 

[belle]

glad to hear the information is helpful targa. you''re welcome

Date: 11/29/2005 8:54:54 PM
Author: targa
1. would a stone that has both--ideal proportions based on gia/ags standards and shows h&a patterns-- then qualify for maximizing it''s light performance?
ie, if you have an ideal gia stone, h&a pattern, and a low HCA score could you still go wrong on the cut?

for example:

1.546 ct
depth 60.6
table 55
crown angle 34.9
pavilion angel 40.7
thin/med girdle
7.49-7.52 X 4.54
polish/symmetry ideal
point culet 0.4%

with all of those criteria lined up, you are in the top level of diamond performance. personally, i would still want an idealscope image before making a final decision.

 

[targa]

here it is!!

 

[belle]

very nice targa