For Wishful

[vintagecushion]

Yay Wishful''s back!

I knew you were strong, otherwise you wouldn''t have stuck around even as long as you did, but I''m so glad you''re back and posting. Hugs to you.
And maybe we''ll get to see those pro pics now!

 

[WishfulThinking]

Kaleigh, I responded to you in the other thread, if you get a chance to look at it there. I think in general being vocal about support of marriage equality is helpful. Straight people who do NOT feel their marriages are threatened by ss marriage are invaluable to the queer movement. Your kind and supportive words here have meant a lot to DW and me, as well.

trillionaire, I feel much the same way about Obama/Biden. I had a very, very hard time voting for Obama, and did so only because I believe against the odds that he will make changes on this issue. I hope, however, that he does not continue his support of the separate but equal rights he currently espouses. I think that's too bad for a man whose own parents could not have been married in 16 states at the time of his birth. I do think that is one reason that the LGBTQ community is miffed by the unsteady support from the black community on this issue. I don't think it's entirely fair or nuanced of any of us to blame one another. I must say I think that Obama shoulders a LOT of the blame for prop 8's passing and I think he should make it a priority in his administration to address the issue of marriage equality and other gay rights issues. I am not sure he will. We're the "untouchables" in politics right now, although I think it's a poor political calculation on their part. I do think Obama's support of ENDA is a good start, and think he would promote hate crimes protection for queer and trans people. The situation is pretty bad, to be honest. I am pretty sure there are some states in which gay people can be denied service in restaurants due to sexual orientation with no penalty. Lawyers feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that. I know housing discrimination is abundant in this area as well, and know personally a few people who have been denied home ownership in regulated communities where the people who make the regulations [grass length, etc

] have decided they do not want gay people messing up their utopian world.

It's got to go, really.

I am so, so excited and happy for people like your grandmother who have seen such drastic changes within their own lifetimes in the area of racial equality. I hope the trend continues, because the fight for racial justice is *far* from over in this country, and the ballot initiative in Nebraska was, in my opinion, another setback.

 

[WishfulThinking]

Date: 11/11/2008 2:06:36 AM
Author: vintagecushion
Yay Wishful''s back!


I knew you were strong, otherwise you wouldn''t have stuck around even as long as you did, but I''m so glad you''re back and posting. Hugs to you.

And maybe we''ll get to see those pro pics now!

Thanks, vintagecushion. I can''t keep away from a community largely full of respectful, kind people. I never would have denied you gals in BWW the pro-pics, though!! Everyone there has always been kind and supportive to us.

 

[trillionaire]

Olbermann on Prop 8...

 

[WishfulThinking]

Date: 11/11/2008 2:58:01 AM
Author: trillionaire
Olbermann on Prop 8...

This moved me when I saw it earlier tonight... I''ll admit I shed a tear. I knew he was talking about Rachel at one point- among others, I am sure, but I am a huge, huge, HUGE fan of hers, so it struck yet another chord in me.

 

[AGBF]

I'm very glad to see you're reading and writing again, Wishful. While you were gone, many of us were sending messages out into the void, not knowing if you would ever see them. Since one thread got nasty enough to be pulled entirely, it is possible that you never will see some of those messages unless you were hovering over a computer feverishly reading everything that was typed in the thread before it was pulled! My memory being so bad, I don't even remember what thread was pulled, let alone what was said to you in it. Suffice it to say, that many people missed you!


Love and hugs,
Deb

 

[ladypirate]

Wishful, I''m so glad you''re back!!!

I was just sick over Prop 8 passing--hopefully the supreme court will overturn it. Part of me just wishes that the government would butt out of marriage entirely. Just make it civil unions for everyone and if you want a "marriage" you can go to a religious institution. At least that would take the "religion" argument out of it completely. I''d take a civil union if it came with all the rights that a marriage license currently comes with and I like that everyone would stand on equal footing. If it takes straight people moving to civil unions, I''m all for it.

 

[movie zombie]

hey, you! i knew you weren''t going to abandon us!


movie zombie

 

[Madam Bijoux]

Wishful, I missed the prop 8 thread and I''m late reading this one, but I just want to say:
Illegitimi non carborundum

 

[HollyS]

Wishful: Welcome back dear friend. We missed you.

Remember that we care about you -- as you -- nobody else, nothing else, no change necessary. We are your friends, and you can be yourself with us, any emotion at all. Okay?

For all the pebbles we sometimes lob at each other over politics, etc., I don''t think any of us would say that we don''t care about our fellow PSer with the differing viewpoint. I have seen the empathy, concern, and prayers pour forth here whenever someone faces a crisis. You''re facing a personal crisis, and we''ll be right here, whenever you need us. I guarantee it.

Hugs all around.

 

[rockzilla]

You may have missed this in the other thread as well...but my fiance and I were among the thousands who marched in protest of Prop 8 in Los Angeles last week. Our thoughts continue to be with you, and everyone whose rights have been taken away.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 11/11/2008 12:43:23 PM
Author: HollyS
Wishful: Welcome back dear friend. We missed you.

Remember that we care about you -- as you -- nobody else, nothing else, no change necessary. We are your friends, and you can be yourself with us, any emotion at all. Okay?

For all the pebbles we sometimes lob at each other over politics, etc., I don''t think any of us would say that we don''t care about our fellow PSer with the differing viewpoint. I have seen the empathy, concern, and prayers pour forth here whenever someone faces a crisis. You''re facing a personal crisis, and we''ll be right here, whenever you need us. I guarantee it.

Hugs all around.

DITTO, DITTO, AND DITTO!!!

 

[princesss]

Oh, twinnie, I''m so glad you''re back! People were talking like you were gone for good and it got me pretty upset.

I don''t post in ATW very often, but I''m glad this thread is here.

We are here for you. As a community, as Holly so rightly pointed out, and outside of our forums, too. There are many of us on here who have been touched just by being lucky enough to know you. We have gotten inspired to speak out more (and I''m sure there are a few people who are getting inspired to speak out for the first time). We have gotten inspired to double and triple our efforts to fight the lies and nastiness spread by those who oppose equal rights, and inspired to do so respectfully so we can ensure we will be heard. (And occasionally, not so respectfully. I dare a teenager to try to say, "That''s so gay," to me and survive. I have a personal vendetta against that phrase.)

But most of all, my dear twin, we''re here to share good times and bad, to be a place to lay your head and rest when you need to, and a place to celebrate the wonderful parts of life.

*hug*

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 11/11/2008 1:46:14 AM
Author: Kaleigh
Wishful,

What can we do to help?

Kaleigh, I'm not Wishful, but I can tell you how you can help. This is not about being gay or not being gay. The action to be taken should be taken by all people, regardless of gender preference, race, religion, whatever. To me, the most powerful action you can take is to stand side by side with everyone else protesting Prop 8. This Saturday, November 15th, is a National Day of Protest Against Prop 8. Marches and rallies will be held across the country in various cities in nearly every state. You can go to the below link and click on your state to see where your state event(s) will be. To me, it is imperative that this not turn into protests only attended by members of the gay community. I am not gay. But I stand for equal rights for all. We're talking about denying basic civil liberties and human rights for one group of people, yet we say we're about "liberty and justice for all"? If that is what this country stands for, truly stands for, then go out this Saturday and let your voice be heard. Now is the time. As we've all seen recently, change doesn't happen by itself. We make it happen. I plan on standing side by side with every other protester this weekend, and I hope you will too. Bring a friend, bring many friends. Make signs. Let it be known you do not have to be gay to stand up for what is just. Posting on the internet can be nice and cathartic, but real change is out there this weekend and it's just waiting for you to participate!

National Day of Protest

To sign the national petition against Prop 8, click here:
National Petition link

 

[bee*]

Delighted to see you again Wishful. I so want you to stay on PS! I showed my little sister and her girlfriend your wedding photos and they think that the two of you looked so beautiful on your wedding day.

 

[dragonfly411]

Wishful - I have to say I am glad you stayed. I have enjoyed your posts here and feel that each and every one of us should be able to express ourselves to the fullest without having to worry about whether others agree. I missed the most heated part of prop 8, and maybe I should be glad that I did, but I want you to know that there are plenty of us out here rooting for you. I don''t necessarily agree with the view point of being gay, it''s not something I personally understand or believe in, but I also believe that you cannot help who you love and everyone deserves to be happy, which is why I am accepting of others'' decisions. I do wish you the best, and I hope you stay here for a good long time dear.

 

[Madam Bijoux]

How moral is it for so-called "straight" couples who detest each other to stay together because they have "invested" in each other? I hope and pray that the human being we elected as president will overturn that inhumane piece of garbage.

 

[movie zombie]

oh, Madam, i so love it when you''re not subtle!

movie zombie

 

[WishfulThinking]

AGBF, thanks so much. I didn''t get to see the latter part of the prop 8 thread... and I''m glad I didn''t since whatever was said that caused it to be pulled would probably have stung more than I could handle, especially at the time. I am glad to be back here and posting again- I always miss you when I''m away!

ladypirate, thanks! I do hope the supreme court overturns it. I will post an update below for those interested! I do remain hopeful about the many lawsuits currently filed. I do support civil unions for all, generally speaking, but I think I would have a hard time with it if the reason civil unions were instituted was to deny me the right to marriage. If the motivation is a sincere interest in the separation of church and state, I think that would be just great, but that doesn''t seem likely, which is too bad. I think it says a lot about the state of our country, and nothing too positive, imo. I have to say that the cultural and social capital of the word "marriage" is VERY strong; however, I do think people would still refer to themselves socially as "married." After all, "civilly united" or "domestically partnered" sounds rather silly...

movie zombie - Naw, I''m too stubborn for that... not sure if it''s a good thing or a bad thing. I enjoy PS quite a lot!

Madam Mijoux - Lol, thank you!!

I must say I thoroughly enojoy your occasionally blunt responses. We think similarly, for sure.

HollyS - Thank you for your post here as well as your continued kindness to me on PS. I appreciate very much your compassion and ability to see past the "party line," so to speak. We may never agree on many issues, but your humanity and understanding on this one issue is invaluable to me and many others. I promise to be myself- thank you. I must say I think some people here would say they do not care about me, specifically as a gay person... but that is so rare. At least one comment has been hateful enough to make me truly believe that, but it thankfully was not directed at me in particular. I don''t want to start any squabbles, so I''ll leave it at that.

However, I feel very safe here and love PS and the people on it! *hugs*

rockzilla - That is so awesome! Thanks for all of the support. I am so, so jealous of the marches going on in CA right now, and excited to join in this Saturday on the series of large demonstrations across the country. Your support for our community means a lot, and I really think the visibility is making a difference. It''s hard to ignore people taking the streets every night!

Irishgrrrl - As always, thank you!

princess, twinnie! I honestly didn''t mean to make it seem like I would leave forever, and a dramatic "threat" wasn''t my intention either... I just needed a break from AtW for a little while. I''m glad my presence here has had an impact; all of you have certainly had an impact on me as well. The support, both on PS and off, of so many people is overwhelming and inspiring, and I think the "it would never happen here" mentality among the more liberal-minded in CA and across the country has been ignited to action in understanding that it CAN happen. I, too, have a vendetta against "that''s so gay." Teenagers, especially, can be so ridiculous sometimes, and even though it''s sort of stupid it does make me feel icky inside. *hugsss*

surfgirl Thanks for your thoughtful post and the link!!! The Nov. 15th protests are going to be a great wave of activism, and I''m so excited about it. DW and I are helping to organize one in our community here in MA, which has gotten a lot of support so far. I am almost surprised by how much support this issue is getting country-wide, and the visibility is key not only in raising awareness about the issue and protesting prop 8''s passage, but also in making those of us in the LGBTQ community feel less overlooked and supported. It''s a little scary and overwhelming to think about the vicious hatred we face every day from people in our own communities, and knowing people out there support us is very comforting. Thanks again for raising awareness about this issue!

Bee*, that is so cute about your sister! They sound very sweet, and my DW thought it was cute that they liked the pictures! We''re waiting excitedly for the pro pics to come in soon!

dragonfly, thanks for the thoughtful post. I appreciate the support even if we do have ideological differences; after all, there is nothing that says we can''t all exist in and share the same world. The over-interest in the lives of others and obsession about forcing everyone into the same worldview/lifestyle seems very counterproductive. Everyone deserves to be happy- if hating me makes people happy they are more than welcome, but they shouldn''t be able to take away my right to be happy, either!

UPDATE!
More news going on in CA right now...
More suits have been filed, along with a bunch of amicus briefs to the court. This looks promising. I am trying not to get my hopes up, but the level of support makes me so happy!

Here is an article.
As usual, I am [still, haha] not a lawyer, but the Allred case and others look pretty tight. Of course, the technical constitutionality of something doesn''t guarantee a "fair" decision from the court, but it certainly helps! The court is not against the idea of gay marriage, as we saw in May, so I do believe in their willingness to treat this fairly.

There is a lot of talk about what would happen to the justices if they were to rule to overturn prop 8... many people think there would be a call for their impeachment. I can''t say I disagree. People seem to be very into their direct democracy lately. Having been to law school I''m sure all of the justices are well aware of unpopular court cases in the past which have hugely aided civil rights struggles, so I do trust, again, that they won''t just go with "public opinion" in order to save their careers. Oy... perhaps I am too hopeful.

 

[VRBeauty]

Date: 11/11/2008 8:30:00 PM
Author: WishfulThinking
AGBF, thanks so much. I didn''t get to see the latter part of the prop 8 thread... and I''m glad I didn''t since whatever was said that caused it to be pulled would probably have stung more than I could handle, especially at the time.
.......

There is a lot of talk about what would happen to the justices if they were to rule to overturn prop 8... many people think there would be a call for their impeachment. I can''t say I disagree. People seem to be very into their direct democracy lately. Having been to law school I''m sure all of the justices are well aware of unpopular court cases in the past which have hugely aided civil rights struggles, so I do trust, again, that they won''t just go with ''public opinion'' in order to save their careers. Oy... perhaps I am too hopeful.

Wishful: I wouldn''t presume to speak for the moderators, but... I don''t think that thread was pulled because of any comments made about or towards you. Let''s just say that the discussion had pretty much moved out to the alley.

I''m sorry to hear that there''s talk of impeachment, but I guess I''m not surprised. Back in the 80''s (I think) three California Supreme Court Justices were removed from office due to their rulings on death penalty cases, and of course California impeached a Governor just six years or so ago. Unfortunately the volume of the discussion when things reach this stage doesn''t allow much room for nuance -- kind of like the discussion towards the end of your prior thread!

 

[dragonfly411]

Wishful - just know that the majority of us don''t hate you

No one should have their right to happiness taken away, and I hope you have a good long happy marriage.

 

[princesss]

Date: 11/11/2008 8:30:00 PM
Author: WishfulThinking

princess, twinnie! I honestly didn''t mean to make it seem like I would leave forever, and a dramatic ''threat'' wasn''t my intention either... I just needed a break from AtW for a little while. I''m glad my presence here has had an impact; all of you have certainly had an impact on me as well. The support, both on PS and off, of so many people is overwhelming and inspiring, and I think the ''it would never happen here'' mentality among the more liberal-minded in CA and across the country has been ignited to action in understanding that it CAN happen. I, too, have a vendetta against ''that''s so gay.'' Teenagers, especially, can be so ridiculous sometimes, and even though it''s sort of stupid it does make me feel icky inside. *hugsss*

I didn''t think there was any threat to leave from you, but I missed you finally leaving that thread, so when people were talking about it like it had actually happened, I was concerned.

And you know what, it''s not kind of stupid when people say, "That''s so gay." It''s turning homophobia into something so socially acceptable it''s not even something they think about! No teenage kid thinks about how using phrases like, "That''s so gay," adds to the negative views of homosexuality. It writes homophobia into language and accepted society when we need to be fighting it - LOUDLY. The simple use of slang to talk about something negative and associating it with homosexuality gradually lessens the opposition to homophobia (and I don''t need to tell you how much that upsets me). Language shapes the way we view our world, and we need to be careful with it.

/off soapbox

Anyways, I''m excited for Saturday. I won''t be able to make it to any rally, which is seriously upsetting me, but I''m getting the word out to everybody I know. I''m so glad your and your wonderful wife are helping to organize a protest. It''s good to feel like you''re really sinking your hands into an issue that can be so overwhelming.

 

[Linda W]

Date: 11/11/2008 9:18:52 PM
Author: VRBeauty

Date: 11/11/2008 8:30:00 PM

Author: WishfulThinking

AGBF, thanks so much. I didn''t get to see the latter part of the prop 8 thread... and I''m glad I didn''t since whatever was said that caused it to be pulled would probably have stung more than I could handle, especially at the time.

.......



There is a lot of talk about what would happen to the justices if they were to rule to overturn prop 8... many people think there would be a call for their impeachment. I can''t say I disagree. People seem to be very into their direct democracy lately. Having been to law school I''m sure all of the justices are well aware of unpopular court cases in the past which have hugely aided civil rights struggles, so I do trust, again, that they won''t just go with ''public opinion'' in order to save their careers. Oy... perhaps I am too hopeful.

Wishful: I wouldn''t presume to speak for the moderators, but... I don''t think that thread was pulled because of any comments made about or towards you. Let''s just say that the discussion had pretty much moved out to the alley.


I''m sorry to hear that there''s talk of impeachment, but I guess I''m not surprised. Back in the 80''s (I think) three California Supreme Court Justices were removed from office due to their rulings on death penalty cases, and of course California impeached a Governor just six years or so ago. Unfortunately the volume of the discussion when things reach this stage doesn''t allow much room for nuance -- kind of like the discussion towards the end of your prior thread!

I am sure the thread was pulled because it was Very Heated!!!!! It was one nasty thread.

 

[trillionaire]

Does anyone with law training know if there is any kind of precedent for allowing the public to create social definitions, and then create ballot measures based on the created social definition? It just all seems a little strange to me, to allow the people to "create" social/legal definitions.

I think I am just still PO'ed at a friend that said that she doesn't agree with or endorse gay marriage, but she could grant gays "civil unions"! how condescending.

Then she asked why gay people wanted to get married anyway? I mean, who wants to lose half their money in divorce???

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Wishful, I am so glad you didn''t run away.

I hope that something good comes out of those law suits. I am glad to see that people are staying active against the issue longer than just a day.

 

[HollyS]

You are so very welcome, Wishful. It would be impossible to not feel compassion and kindness towards anyone with a sincere desire to share a deep commitment, a home, and maybe a family with the one they love. If what we all want is normality and morality, what is more indicative of that than hearth, home, and family?

I do not presume to know what makes one person gay, and another straight, but I do know we aren''t the only species to have some members mate wth same-sex partners. Anybody who has ever watched the Discovery Channel, Animal Planet, or even PBS should have seen that by now! As for those convinced homosexuality is sin, the Bible was referring to specific behavior among specific people, in a specific region, at a specific time. It had gotten so deviant, the apostles felt the need to speak out. We can take it out of context, but The Word will most certainly lose its power if we do.

Recently, for some inexplicable reason, I was compelled to watch one of those awful reality shows, "Wife Swap". (It was a flipping channel kind of night.) What was interesting was that they had taken a lesbian couple and a straight couple, and swapped partners. The heterosexual woman was hostile and ugly to the woman she was sent to, and actually used some very foul language in front of the children. The heterosexual family eventually came to love the lesbian that had come to their house and had made significant changes in how they interacted with each other. It was very interesting to note that the ''straight'' woman came back to a changed household, and was convinced that they thought she was a monster and wouldn''t want her back. She finally saw herself through someone else''s eyes. And even she didn''t like what she saw. The ''real'' family in this show, the ''real'' relationships depicted, were those of the same-sex partners and their children. And it wasn''t just careful editing. The ''straight'' family had a lot of work to do to even come close to that kind of famly life. Very interesting.

With more than 50% of marriages ending in divorce, I don''t think the ''straight'' world should dictate to the gay community what constitutes marriage. We don''t seem to really know, do we?

 

[MoonWater]

Wishful, I''m so glad you''re back. *hugs*

 

[stryeyes102]

Wishful- I just wanted to chime in with something... I didn''t even think about it till I heard Judge Judy talking about it on Larry King BUT, (I have a point I swear!) No ex post facto laws.. Meaning you cannot create a law to punish a action after it has been done legally. Prop 8 is an ex post facto law, it punishes an action after the fact. So, unless the judge does something really weird (lots of grey areas) your marriage should still be valid in California!

This has also been talked about a lot in the news but they just call it a retroactive law, instead of the fancy name.

* I am still learning so please be nice other law people*


K, off my dorky lil CJ soapbox!

Also, ditto to what everyone has said; I am so happy you didn''t leave!

 

[mia1181]

Yay! Wishful! Your back! I am sooo glad to see you

What can I say.... I am completely embarrassed about what went down here. But I am glad you see that there are so many here that support you!

Now just can''t wait to see those pro pics!

 

[WishfulThinking]

Hey everyone- sorry to take so long to respond! I''ve been busy organizing and making signs for our local rally this coming Saturday. Just as a reminder for anyone who is interested, Nov. 15th will be a wave of protests in EVERY state in the US where people will gather from 1:30-4 pm to voice opposition to the passing of prop 8 in CA. It will be a good time and a lot of energy, I think, and is something positive that anyone can do. Don''t be shy- show up if you''re interested! You certainly do not need to be gay to attend, and solidarity in any form is appreciated. Pass the word on.

The official website is here: Join the Impact

VRBeauty - CA is interesting on the impeachment issue, definitely. It''s intriguing because I think CA might have an easier impeachment/recall process than other states have, which might lead to an increase in the frequency. I haven''t checked on that, though. I do know the CA constitution is very easily amended compared to many other states, and the initiative process involves less legislature consent. It weirds me out that a simple majority vote on an election ballot can amend the constitution.

dragonfly - Thank you so much!

princess - I totally agree about the normalizing homophobia thing. It is really disturbing to me as well, and I find myself getting pretty offended. I think people often do not realize the impacts of their own words and phrases on shaping culture. I am one of those people who sees no shame in calling people out on their offensive language even when I don''t know them... probably not a very desirable or safe habit [I, um, wouldn''t do it in a red state... ], but I''ve gotten at least a few people to re-think their words over the years!

Linda - *many hugs* !

Trillionaire - I do not have formal law training, just undergrad civil liberties law courses and a few others, and a TON of self-taught reading. However, as a student of politics and government, I think I might be able to somewhat address your question. There is a lot of precedent for social definitions translating into legal definitions on a very basic level. For instance, murder has been considered socially/morally wrong in most societies [depending on who you murder, but just for the sake of the argument]. Certain loose social and moral codes have become formalized in law. However, the issue with prop 8 is that the social definition being crafted infringes on the rights of others. Outlawing murder and other things we deem inappropriate socially or morally often has the reverse effect by protecting people rather than harming people. I don''t know if that is really an answer, but I do think the general social law/formal law connection is interrupted somewhat by the material effects of measures like prop 8 on the individual rights of other citizens.

About the civil unions thing...yeah, I think it''s pretty condescending as well. If everyone thought marriage was so horrible they wouldn''t be trying to keep us from getting married to begin with.

Obviously it has its ups and downs, but pretending that this somehow "protects" us is ludicrous.

LtlFirecracker - Thanks! I agree about the activity. I am so impressed by the dedication and activism I have seen this past week. It gives me a lot of hope for the future.

Holly, you make so many excellent points. People are so diverse in general, and as a social sciences oriented person I actually think it''s very interesting to see how marriage has evolved throughout time. It has meant many things to many different people in societies all over the globe. It has been historically awarded to some groups and barred from others, and always a site of contestation and challenges to hegemonic social and cultural tendencies. I am excited to have the opportunity to create my own little family with my wife. I hope we make of it the best that we know how and that our challenges and inevitable stumblings will add to the pool of knowledge about what families and marriages *can* look like.

MoonWater - *hugs* Thanks!

stryeyes102 - Thanks for contributing the ex post facto info. I do know that that doctrine is what is in question in determining whether marriages already performed will remain valid. Many people do agree with Judge Judy that they will remain recognized because of ex post facto laws and other considerations. I have faith that this is likely. However, I''ve heard interesting legal arguments from people who know more than I do claiming that "recognition" is an on-going process rather than a set event, so the state could potentially be barred from *continuing* to recognize our marriages. This does set some dangerous precedent for contract law, though, from what I understand. It''s also notable that the CA Supreme Court, in making their determination on the matter, is likely to examine the "intent" of the CA voters in voting Yes on prop 8. It is my guess that they would decide that most voters did not think that prop 8 would invalidate existing marriages, as public statements claiming it would not have been made on multiple occasions [though that is still technically unsure]. If it didn''t affect my life I would be drooling over the legal aspects of this very interesting issue... I am still deciding if law school is right for me, but I sure do love to study law!

Any lawyers feel free to chime in here as well. I''m always ready to learn more and it''s possible I have mischaracterized some of the arguments inadvertently.