For Wishful

[VRBeauty]

Please do not give up hope:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-me-protest10-2008nov10,0,4429002.story

 

[SarahLovesJS]

And please don''t leave PS either, please come back!

Wishing you the best.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

A number of important people are talking about pulling tourism from Utah over it, including the sundance film festival.
They support you and so do we wishful.

 

[Linda W]

That is right, never give up hope.


WishfulThinking, please come back and post again. We miss you honey.


Linda

 

[Kaleigh]

I hope you come back Wishful, you are missed by many. Sending you and your beautiful wife hugs, and lots of support.

There is hope ahead..

 

[Skippy123]

Best wishes Wishfulthinking

 

[*Danielle*]

I hope the efforts make a difference. Wishful, please don''t leave!

 

[WishfulThinking]

I''m trying to stay positive, I really am! I have to say though... Arnie sure is a goofball. Is he forgetting that ss marriage would be legal twice over if he hadn''t vetoed the bills put forth by the legislature? Gee, thanks man.

Really, though, I appreciate all of the support and am heartened by the ongoing protests in CA, Utah, and countrywide. It''s really the only thing--besides DW, of course!!--getting me through right now.

I am really hoping lately that we can come up, all of us, together, with a plan to coexist peacefully and happily with one another. I strive to create a world in which we can agree to disagree without stepping all over each others'' toes... and rights. I really do. I can never truly understand where the "opposition" is coming from because I am living only my own, unique experiences, but I DO know from my own experiences how it feels to know that others wish for your oppression or to silence you--and I know that many people who oppose my getting married feel like it will interfere with the practicing of their own beliefs. I wish I knew what to tell them to make them feel better, I really do. And I wish what I want wasn''t seen as such an affront to them. It sucks to have your beliefs interfered with, and I think most of us feel like that around this issue. I don''t want to get into religion here, but I imagine that some people feel as strongly about their religion as do for my wife-- we all deserve to be able to feel strongly about those things we hold dear. It is our right.

I do believe that there is more that unites us than divides us, and that there always will be. I see that displayed here in some very respectful posts on this subject by people who have clearly put a lot of thought into their position, even if we do not agree 100% or even at all. Thank you for your input. I hope we can continue to discuss this subject in a way that is productive and respectful, and I promise to do my part to make that happen. At the same time, we all need to remember that there are human beings with feelings on the other side of the computer monitors from which we type- we will inevitably make mistakes in the way we present our thoughts and feelings.

Thanks again, everyone. I will certainly not leave PS over this issue. Too many people here have been kind and accepting to me and many others in our diverse community for me to let one or two peoples'' hurtful comments turn me off permanently. It was just a certain thread I needed to bow out of.

 

[diamondfan]

Wishful, I am so happy.

I did not see the Prop 8 thread at all, good thing.

I did weigh in on the other issues regarding how we can learn to post our views and disagree without devolving into meanness.

You live your life, Wishful. Love whom you want to. I hope the days comes when it is a non issue. Life is tough enough, if you find love and happiness you are blessed. Fight the good fight. I know it is hard when there are people who do not support or understand at all. They are fearful, or closed off somewhat, or believe something that makes it tough for them to see what others see more easily.

You HAVE support here. You are wanted and appreciated. Be happy, that is the best antidote for all the bad stuff.

 

[TravelingGal]

Bout time you got your patootie back here Wishful.

Glad to see you!

 

[Linda W]

I am SO Glad to see you post Wishful!!! I was so concerned about you. Like Diamondfan said, you are wanted here and supported here. I am sending you and you DW a big hug.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 11/10/2008 11:41:15 PM
Author: Linda W
I am SO Glad to see you post Wishful!!! I was so concerned about you. Like Diamondfan said, you are wanted here and supported here. I am sending you and you DW a big hug.

And hugs from Linda are niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice. But Amelia (my daughter) has got one up on you...Linda gives her big smooches.

 

[WishfulThinking]

*hugs to all*

I''m pretty resilient, guys, I promise. I''ve been though a lot in my life and this certainly won''t kill me. At least I hope not!

Really, though, I''ve been subjected to some pretty hateful stuff that makes PS look like kiddie play, and in the end I''ve been strong enough to get through it. Not that I should have to, but just so you don''t spend time worrying about me unnecessarily!

We also ordered our marriage license today!!!! We should technically be able to receive it, although they cannot guarantee it will continue to be valid. We will at least have a copy of it. Unless there is a court decision within the next few days while they are retrieving it, but it''s unlikely things will go down that way. I wish Arnie or the attorney general of CA had the final authority on whether the 18,000 marriages will remain valid... they sound pretty sure about it, but it''s not their decision to make, unfortunately.

Thanks again, everyone.

PS: T-Gal, your baby is just the most adorable ever!

 

[iluvcarats]

Good to *see* you wishful!

Just want you to know, it''s not ok. None of it''s ok. I am on your side along with many others, I am sad for the human race because of how we treat each other. We are supposed to be evolved...

Keep your chin up, and keep fighting!

 

[Kaleigh]

Glad to see you back wishful!!!!! Like I said, you were missed by many. We DO support you.

You gotta love those hugs from Linda. She''s such a kind and caring person.

 

[coatimundi_org]

YAY! Glad you're still posting, Wishful! You are truly patient, kind, and accepting, and I appreciate hearing about your experience. Hope you and your wife are doing well--hugs from Los Angeles!

Coati

(ps, did you post more ring shots? The pro ones from your wedding?

)

 

[TravelingGal]

Thanks Wishful, she''s not going to be a poster child for Gap, but she really ain''t bad.

I do sincerely hope your marriage (along with the 18,000 others) will stick. Very cool you ordered your license!

 

[WishfulThinking]

Thank you VRBeauty, Sarah, Kaleigh, Skippy, *Danielle*, T-gal!!

BIH, that is so interesting about the tourism. It''s nice to know there is a movement to look into those things. For anyone interested I believe the Mariott hotel is one of the places to avoid if you''re pro- marriage equality.

Linda, you are without a doubt one of the most beautiful people I have had the pleasure to know. Thank you for everything- your friendship, your relentless support, and your great hugs! *hug!*

diamondfan, you are the epitome of class... can I be you when I grow up? You have been so articulate [I admit to lurking in the long thread about the AtW forum in general] in expressing what I wish I could say as eloquently. I appreciate your open-mindedness and respect for everyone on this board. Thanks for your support!

iluvcarats- Evolved, hah! It''s a wonder we don''t eradicate ourselves and each other with all of the hatred in this world.

Thank you for your kind words.

Coati - Thanks!! We are doing the best we can over here in [cold

] MA- hanging in there. Our pro-pics should have at least one or two of our rings!

We haven''t received them yet, but should any day, we hope! I''ll be sure to post them when we have them.

 

[FrekeChild]

Yay! Welcome back Wishful! I hope that your marriage remains valid.

So now that you''re back, what are your thoughts on tuna salad? Mustard or no mustard? And if it''s mustard, what kind of mustard?

 

[Linda W]

Date: 11/11/2008 12:35:06 AM
Author: FrekeChild
Yay! Welcome back Wishful! I hope that your marriage remains valid.


So now that you''re back, what are your thoughts on tuna salad? Mustard or no mustard? And if it''s mustard, what kind of mustard?

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Freke, leave it to you. Are you sending her over to our tuna thread???

 

[diamondfan]

Wishful, thank you and right back at you. Like I said, I did not read that thread and it got deleted so luckily I can avoid it, as I think it would have upset me greatly. It is really tricky to be non judgmental and just state your views. I admit that MY bias is I have a tough time with really rigid, narrow minded people, or really bigoted and racist views. I really do. I think they can think what they like, I just dislike that THEIR views become the ONE way it should be. Just so silly and limiting to me. And like I said, but for the grace of God go we. We should all just hope to find love and comfort and happiness in our brief time here. That, and finding something to get up and do each day that you love, that fulfills you, and blessedly even pays you money so you can provide for yourself and your loved ones...those are the things that are important in the end, not what color your skin in, what God you worship, or who is special to you in your life.

I try to be calm. I try to measure my words, and not post in haste, even though my typing and spelling drop off in the late hours terribly. But some people do make me angry. And I feel that they would anger me and others in daily life too. So I know that I can log off here, and still be me, and be happy with that. And I can even feel a bit sad for someone who lives their life so restrictedly. I hope they find joys and pleasures somewhere and learn to be more accepting. I also agree and have said that there is more that unites us, or there should be...as no matter what your language or religion, I think we all love our families and want a save world in which to live and exist.

Wishful, just be yourself! Glow and be strong, and love your partner and share the good and bad in life. I am just happy that you are still here, to share the stuff that you wish to share, and know that there are so many loving and wonderful people here who share in your joy and happiness and excitement for the good things and support you in times of struggle. I hope your marriage is allowed to exist on a legal level, but you two still love one another, and you can live and be happy. I know the recognition of it is important, and I hope it comes to pass that marriage is between two consenting adults and not just a man and a woman. But for now at least you got your license and you have each other. Let''s hope for positive outcomes.

 

[decodelighted]

Wishful ...
Saw Judge Judy on Larry King declaring what happened in CA "just plain wrong" ... she''s 100% pro gay marriage & 100% pro same-sex couples adopting kids & being foster parents. Who knows ... maybe she can get through to some folks? (She also was nearly certain that the EXISTING CA marriages would not be affected no matter what happens.) The protests cropping up all over the country are really encouraging. And Arnie seems to have flipped a bit. GOOD LUCK!!!!

 

[Linda W]

Date: 11/11/2008 12:05:47 AM
Author: WishfulThinking
Thank you VRBeauty, Sarah, Kaleigh, Skippy, *Danielle*, T-gal!!


BIH, that is so interesting about the tourism. It''s nice to know there is a movement to look into those things. For anyone interested I believe the Mariott hotel is one of the places to avoid if you''re pro- marriage equality.


Linda, you are without a doubt one of the most beautiful people I have had the pleasure to know. Thank you for everything- your friendship, your relentless support, and your great hugs! *hug!*


diamondfan, you are the epitome of class... can I be you when I grow up? You have been so articulate [I admit to lurking in the long thread about the AtW forum in general] in expressing what I wish I could say as eloquently. I appreciate your open-mindedness and respect for everyone on this board. Thanks for your support!


iluvcarats- Evolved, hah! It''s a wonder we don''t eradicate ourselves and each other with all of the hatred in this world.

Thank you for your kind words.


Coati - Thanks!! We are doing the best we can over here in [cold

] MA- hanging in there. Our pro-pics should have at least one or two of our rings!

We haven''t received them yet, but should any day, we hope! I''ll be sure to post them when we have them.

Thank you so much Wishful sweetheart. I do hope, as well as my husband, that we will be able to meet you and your beautiful wife when you both move to California. We would love to take you both to either lunch or dinner. Your choice.

 

[trillionaire]

Change is all around us, and it will come to CA too, for good! Just look at Oregon... what a cool story!

 

[diamondfan]

Date: 11/11/2008 12:50:30 AM
Author: decodelighted
Wishful ...

Saw Judge Judy on Larry King declaring what happened in CA ''just plain wrong'' ... she''s 100% pro gay marriage & 100% pro same-sex couples adopting kids & being foster parents. Who knows ... maybe she can get through to some folks? (She also was nearly certain that the EXISTING CA marriages would not be affected no matter what happens.) The protests cropping up all over the country are really encouraging. And Arnie seems to have flipped a bit. GOOD LUCK!!!!

I wondered if they could retroactively go back and dissolve the contract of marriage when it was entered into validly at the time...I sure hope not.

 

[WishfulThinking]

Thanks, Freke!

I am a huge proponent of mustard. But better watch out if you don''t agree, I am hell bent on forcing mustard upon every citizen at EVERY meal!

No preference on the type of mustard, but I think it''s very important for everyone to abide by my personal preferences...

[Okay, now I''m just being punchy!]

DF- There you go again being so well-spoken and level headed. Thank you for your valuable input. Your post really resonates with me. I agree on all counts. Thanks for the support, also! We''re a little bit emotionally vulnerable right now, and every word of encouragement is honestly helpful.

decodelighted, that is so interesting about Judge Judy, I hadn''t heard that. She does seem to have an interesting fan base, so you might be right that she could make a difference. There is a lot of interesting and very positive data about the children of gay families that I wish was more widely published and known. Thank you again!

Linda, I would love nothing more than to be able to meet you and your sweet husband one day, and hopefully not too long from now! I am looking forward to the move to CA, even though I am testy about moving to a state where 52% of people don''t [yet!] believe in my equal rights. We''d move to an urban, coastal area, though, and those areas are largely accepting, thankfully! I think I am spoiled, though, growing up in MA and having my first real experiences as a political activist fighting for marriage equality validated so quickly here! I will just have to keep fighting. In the end I know we will be strong enough to get by.

Trillionaire- Oh, I know! The Oregon story is very cool. I''m glad to see that news source reporting using the language "gender fluid." I would never tell another person how they should self-identify, as it is none of my business whatsoever, but some of my friends who are transgender are very interested and a little bothered by the mayor-elect''s identification as "transgender," as generally the term refers to a self-identification with a gender other than the one usually assigned in line with biological sex. The media uses male pronouns, and it''s sort of unclear which pronouns Stu prefers. Regardless, and my own interest in gender and sexualities studies aside, I am SO PLEASED at the positive reaction to Stu as a *person* in hir community rather than exclusively identified by hir "non-normative" gender presentation. Progress is on its way. Plus, Obama and Biden have announced that their non-discrimination policy will be inclusive of gender identity, which is HUGELY important, and perhaps lead to the passage of an inclusive ENDA that includes not only protection based on sexual orientation, but also based on gender [rather than sex.] I am not sure if you''ve been following that or not, or if I''ve just thoroughly confused everyone...

Sorry for the sidetrack!

 

[WishfulThinking]

Date: 11/11/2008 1:19:45 AM
Author: diamondfan

Date: 11/11/2008 12:50:30 AM

Author: decodelighted

Wishful ...


Saw Judge Judy on Larry King declaring what happened in CA ''just plain wrong'' ... she''s 100% pro gay marriage & 100% pro same-sex couples adopting kids & being foster parents. Who knows ... maybe she can get through to some folks? (She also was nearly certain that the EXISTING CA marriages would not be affected no matter what happens.) The protests cropping up all over the country are really encouraging. And Arnie seems to have flipped a bit. GOOD LUCK!!!!

I wondered if they could retroactively go back and dissolve the contract of marriage when it was entered into validly at the time...I sure hope not.

Us too. Legally speaking it would create some pretty interesting precedent, and if I remember correctly the CA Supreme Court has in the past ruled in line with the idea that legislation/initiatives, etc, cannot act retroactively because of the legal doctrine of "ex post facto."

Maybe petty, but I will be SO ANNOYED if we paid almost $200 for a marriage license that is no longer worth anything legally, and that we will be forced to get a domestic partnership [which I think is so sad and demeaning

] and pay for that as well. They might refund us the cost, but we''re not sure. We''re hoping for the best, though, and that we won''t even have to worry about it because they won''t try to invalidate them! And for now we''re still legally married! Plus, the lawsuits challenging the constitutionality of prop 8 in general [whether such rights can be voted on through ballot initiative and win with only a simple majority] are pretty strong. I am hopeful for the first time in days.

Plus, I am so very lucky to have my beautiful, intelligent, loving and caring wife who adores me and is here for me. Not everyone in the world is so lucky. Regardless of this legal mess we have each other and our relationship is very strong. We''re strong for each other, and we have a very long future ahead of us.

 

[FrekeChild]

Tee hee! I love mustard! Woot!

 

[Kaleigh]

Wishful,
What can we do to help?

 

[trillionaire]

Date: 11/11/2008 1:25:12 AM
Author: WishfulThinking

Trillionaire- Oh, I know! The Oregon story is very cool. I''m glad to see that news source reporting using the language ''gender fluid.'' I would never tell another person how they should self-identify, as it is none of my business whatsoever, but some of my friends who are transgender are very interested and a little bothered by the mayor-elect''s identification as ''transgender,'' as generally the term refers to a self-identification with a gender other than the one usually assigned in line with biological sex. The media uses male pronouns, and it''s sort of unclear which pronouns Stu prefers. Regardless, and my own interest in gender and sexualities studies aside, I am SO PLEASED at the positive reaction to Stu as a *person* in hir community rather than exclusively identified by hir ''non-normative'' gender presentation. Progress is on its way. Plus, Obama and Biden have announced that their non-discrimination policy will be inclusive of gender identity, which is HUGELY important, and perhaps lead to the passage of an inclusive ENDA that includes not only protection based on sexual orientation, but also based on gender [rather than sex.] I am not sure if you''ve been following that or not, or if I''ve just thoroughly confused everyone...

Sorry for the sidetrack!

First, I want to say I am anti-mustard, and if you force mustard on me, I will be forced to retaliate with unnamed condiments.

And I did have to look up ENDA, but I am glad I did. As for Obama/Biden, I really always felt that they were "playing politics" with the gay marriage thing. I always felt like they were pro, but they understood that it would be a stumbling block towards getting elected, so they supported the civil unions bit so that they could say publicly, in debates, that they were against same sex marriage. (just my conspiracy theory, of course) I really think they just feel that they can make more change from in the Whitehouse than from the lawn, if you know what I mean. My fear, is that they would maybe want to wait until a second term for a strong push for equal rights, but I hope that is not the case. I''m with you in the sense that I can feel the change getting SO CLOSE, but it is just not soon enough! I can''t wait until the day when we look back at this time and wonder, how could that have even been an issue? My grandmother is 90 and I am so happy she lived to see a black man elected. Oh the things we will see in our lifetimes! So amazing!

(Ironically, my grandmother was very anti-Hillary, saying that women had no business in the whitehouse...

So, it just goes to show, that change is hard won, and never clear cut!)