Feral and stray cats

[FireGoddess]

Thanks for asking you guys! I have gone right to brushing each cat with the same brush and doing the sock thing where I rub a sock on one''s face and then rub the other one with it. Nobody seems to mind. Holly however, is very demanding of attention so when I lock her back up in her room (even after hours of free roaming the house while Chloe is cooped up in my bedroom) she still wails and cries, which totally freaks Chloe out. However, Chloe is comforted by the fact that even though this ruckus is going on, it has not had much impact on her life yet.

They have not had any contact since the day that Holly accidentally was roaming the house. I''m debating putting Holly in a carrier in my bedroom for brief periods a few days this week, so Chloe is forced to look at her in the same room (but Chloe can roam freely while Holly would be in the cage....though I''m a little unsure if I should, since Holly will probably be yelling to get out of the cage, which might just scare Chloe more). This is not what the animal behaviorist said to do, but unfortunately what she said to do is impossible. I can''t get Chloe to interact with Holly of her own free will. She definitely chooses to hide under the bed, so if I don''t bring Holly into Chloe''s realm, I''m going to have to do this by just letting them both roam free while I''m home and see what happens, which might be too shocking for Chloe? I don''t know - either way Chloe is not going to be happy. But whatever I can do so that she feels comfortable enough to not live under my bed 24/7 is what I want to do!

 

[FireGoddess]

Okay -the behaviorist told me I''m going too fast - that this could take 6 months?!?!

I can''t foresee keeping Holly cooped up that long, even though I spend time with her every morning and let her out every evening to roam the house while Chloe is cooped up. I hope Chloe can come around sooner than that! Eek!

Saturday morning I was laughing so hard I could barely contain myself - DH does NOT know how to handle Holly and every time he pet her he would jerk his hand so fast she''d think he was playing and try to bite at him (not hard like before, but in play). I was like, "you are not petting her properly! Be calm and use s l o w hand movements. S L O W L Y. So she won''t think you''re playing with her." Then he''d get freaked out and yank his hand away which would make her come after it. I showed him how she never acts that way towards me. He''s got a lot to learn.

 

[lumpkin]

FG, speaking strictly for what *I* would do, I would just let them both have free run of the house while you are home and see what happens. Unless there is an all out cat fight (which I seriously doubt) I think they are going to have to understand that neither of them is leaving and that they are going to have to live together. You have been gently introducing them to each other and they definitely know the other is there. They don''t have to eat from the same food bowl, and they can have separate litter boxes, but I''m not really convinced that an elaborate and involved conditioning routine is really going to help. They are either going to be friends or they will tolerate each other, and I doubt that 6 months of the sock routine is really going to change the result. BIG disclaimer here, though: I''m not an animal behaviorist -- I''m going strictly on past experience with my own cats and my human children.

 

[FireGoddess]

Lumpkin, I tend to agree with you, though I clearly have no experience with this sort of thing. I want to do whatever I can to prevent Chloe from being miserable and staying under the bed 24/7 once they meet but months and months of keeping them separate, 8 bajillion socks, and Holly wailing every night for company does not sound appealling!!

 

[lumpkin]

My guess is that the longer you keep them separated, the longer Chloe will be under the bed. It may very well be six months before she does, but I think it will be six months after they both have free reign, so that for however long they are completely separate, it will be that much longer. JMHO, though.

I think you are such a loving owner, they will both be fine.

 

[kohdy]

Date: 5/14/2007 3:27:52 PM
Author: lumpkin
My guess is that the longer you keep them separated, the longer Chloe will be under the bed. It may very well be six months before she does, but I think it will be six months after they both have free reign, so that for however long they are completely separate, it will be that much longer. JMHO, though.

I think you are such a loving owner, they will both be fine.

Lumpkin, I was just thinking the same thing. I never took more than a week or two to introduce my cats to one another. In fact, the youngest of the three did not even want to be separated from the other two for more than 24 hours! She would cry and scratch the door, which made my other two cats very upset and scared. Once I let the baby loose (but I was watching them all very closely of course), everything calmed down as if all three of them had always been there together all along. I know I was given all sorts of instructions by vets and the like about how to do this properly, but I think cats are wiser. They always seem know what to do in order to make it work. If I were in the position to make the decision, I would allow Chloe and Holly to interact with one another under close observation as soon as I can so that they can establish the hierarchy and find peace with the new arrangement.

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 5/15/2007 12:10:41 AM
Author: kohdy

Lumpkin, I was just thinking the same thing. I never took more than a week or two to introduce my cats to one another. In fact, the youngest of the three did not even want to be separated from the other two for more than 24 hours! She would cry and scratch the door, which made my other two cats very upset and scared. Once I let the baby loose (but I was watching them all very closely of course), everything calmed down as if all three of them had always been there together all along. I know I was given all sorts of instructions by vets and the like about how to do this properly, but I think cats are wiser. They always seem know what to do in order to make it work. If I were in the position to make the decision, I would allow Chloe and Holly to interact with one another under close observation as soon as I can so that they can establish the hierarchy and find peace with the new arrangement.

Yep, it freaks Chloe out that Holly goes ballistic in her room and wants to join in on the fun when she sees me through the door.

SO....this is what I decided. Tell me what you think.

I decided that since my bedroom is Chloe's *lair*, that I would try to train Holly that it is off limits to her. That she can't go in there. That way, if it ends up working, Chloe still has a place she can retreat to. Last night, I left the bedroom door open and then let Holly out of her room. She roamed around but if she got to the entrance of my bedroom, she got a water squirt which made her run away from it. She only tried twice to check out my bedroom last night, and once this morning. I'm sure over the course of weeks I can teach her to avoid the room. It might be harder once I'm in there and she has free reign of the house, wanting to be near me, but hopefully she can be ingrained that she can't go in there before we get to that point.

So...all the doors were open and Holly was sitting with me on the couch. Maybe 35 minutes or so passed and Chloe came out of my bedroom. Well, I hadn't dared to even imagine that! They saw each other and Chloe froze. However, Holly hissed at her. I said 'Holly....NO. Chloe, good girl. Chloe good girl." Chloe looked like she wanted to bolt, but she didn't. She actually SAT DOWN. I said, "Good girl Chloe." Holly hissed again. I said, "Holly.....NO." When they were both in the room, frozen in place, and no one was doing anything bad I said, "Good girls. Good, good girls. Good girl Holly. Good girl Chloe." Both just sat there. Finally Chloe retreated to my bedroom. I felt that was a small miracle! It gave me hope this could work. However, I was shocked that it was HOLLY who did the hissing. I was kinda afraid of that - that she would try to assert dominance over Chloe. hmmmm.

Anyway, I know you're not supposed to use their name for anything negative, but I had to find a way to tell Holly she was being bad but not make Chloe think she was being bad. It seemed to work.

This might take awhile, but I think I like this route better than the 6 months of socks.

What do you think!? It seemed like....progress. Hopefully Chloe won't have been traumatized by the experience and decide not to come out anymore.

 

[chrono]

Sounds like progress to me. I think it''s going to work out fine. FG, you''ve done a wonderful job of not only rescueing Holly, but working with Chloe to get her to be more social.

 

[lumpkin]

(I hope this isn''t a double post -- I did post and I was sure I hit submit, but it didn''t show up, so sorry if there ends up being two).

It really does sound to me like things are going very well, FG. I think everything will work out and you will end up with two very happy kitties.

 

[kohdy]

FG, it looks like you''re doing well in helping your babies make a smooth transition. The sock thing for 6 months, in my honest opinion, is just unreasaonable and unrealistic. I think it would further alienate the kitties if you try to separate them that long. But then again, I am not a kitty expert, but have lots of experience with cats.

I know you are afraid that Holly is trying to be the dominant cat, but it most likely will end up being that way anyway. Some cats are just shy, like Chloe. But once Holly claims dominance over Chloe, Chloe will accept the fact and move on to bigger and better things. Not only that, she will most likely learn a few things from Holly. For instance, confidence! The youngest one I have (Muffin) is an alpha female, but the oldest one (Cherry) is even stronger, hence the queen of our little hierarchy. So the middle one, Bobo, is the weakest in my household and seems to be perfectly content with that. Anyway, the two alpha females will sometimes have a face off, but they know not to hurt each other. They, on their own, have claimed their own retreat areas that the other one will not touch. For example, Muffin sits on top of this big char in the living room and the bed in the guest bedroom. Cherry retreats our office, the top of this scratching post tree, and the couch in my master bedroom. Bobo has claimed under the blankets on my bed in the master bedroom and under the bed. He also likes to go under the couch in the living room. Yeah, you can tell that he likes to hide under a lot of things! LOL! All three of them sleep with us on the bed at night. Bobo and Muffin always hold each other to sleep in between my hubby and me. Cherry usually takes a little corner either by my foot or my hubby''s. Bobo, 90% of the times, will end up under the blanket and in my arms because he likes to cuddle. I didn''t mean to get so much in detail about my cats, but I just wanted to assure you that Holly and Chloe will be okay in time.

FG, just keep encouraging your kitties to get to know each other, but make sure that you''re following them closely so that no harm can be done. I would not recomment letting them loose when you are not around just in case, although I doubt that anything bad could happen even if you do. Let us know if there''s anything new. I love hearing about Holly and Chloe.

 

[sumbride]

It sounds like you''re doing really well FG!

Let me tell you about the sock thing... for the first year we had Bill, he lived with Matt in his apartment. I visited a few times a week and I know that when I got to the apartment I must have smelled like Max and Lucy, my cats... and I know that when I left I must have smelled like Bill... but when we moved in together, it was like they''d never met before... smells or no. Max and Bill bonded pretty quickly, but Bill and Lucy still don''t like each other, almost 2 years later. Now that it''s just Bill and Lucy, we still have occasional hissing and chasing, but they both sleep in our bedroom at night. Lucy usually sleeps between our feet, and Bill sleeps in the cat bed on the cedar chest at the foot of the bed. Less than a foot away from Lucy! And they are fine with it. They still aren''t friends, but they can be roommates.

I think you''re well on the way to cohabitation! Holly will probably be the dominant one because it sounds like Chloe doesn''t know how!

 

[FireGoddess]

Alright, well to quote Deco, AIGHHHHHHH.

I'm just so upset - and very dejected about yesterday's 'interaction.' It's making me wonder whether this is an exercise in futility.

On Monday and Tuesday I let Holly out of her room without closing Chloe in my bedroom. Both days Chloe came out into the living room, Holly hissed at her, but there was no fighting and Chloe stayed a minute or two and then retreated into my bedroom.

Last night, in a moment I was SO proud of, Chloe exhibited a tremendous amount of courage and trotted into the living room and was walking right towards Holly and I. Very innocent, and not in an antagonistic manner. Well, Holly bolted off the couch and attacked her. There was swatting [nobody sustained any wounds at all] and Chloe ran out of the room and under the bed. I was so upset that I yelled NO at Holly and just put her back in her room. Poor Chloe wouldn't come out and see me for ANYthing. I left some treats on the floor right by the bed for her and ran out to get some more supplies (litter, treats, etc). I came back and stayed in my bedroom and watched TV, hoping Chloe would feel comfortable enough to come out. She did go to get food, but literally tripped over herself trying to get under the bed so fast when she heard Holly crying for attention in the other room. It just broke my heart.

Finally Chloe did come out and snuggle with me on the bed, and we played with some catnip toys. She seemed alright but is still skittish. I know that I have to expect these things to happen, but I am really pissed at how aggressive Holly is with Chloe. I know she had to defend herself in the wild but jeez - Chloe is completely passive and it pains me to put her in this situation.

 

[chrono]

Oh dear, this was totally unexpected. I''m sorry FG.

After all that hard work and this had to happen: Chloe''s self confidence is probably all trampled on now.

 

[AmberGretchen]

Oh FG that is so hard, I know it feels like a huge setback. Honestly though, everything I''ve ever read says that they have to just work it out. Could you maybe try, the next time you''re in the living room with Holly, having a toy at the ready and then when Chloe comes in you can start dangling it for Holly right away to distract her? I''m so sorry that was so traumatic for both you and Chloe, but I still think it sounds like overall excellent progress is being made, and so far nothing has happened that makes me think it can''t still work out.

 

[Gypsy]

Oh honey I'm sorry. Duncan beat the stuffing out of Frodo the first two times they met, and now they are the best of friends. You did exactly the right thing separating them and locking Holly up. She needs to know that her actions have consequences and that aggression will not be tolerated. Can you maybe lock her up in a kennel for the next couple of interactions? Then let her out? And put her right back in if she hisses?
I'm sorry for this setback... but I am still confident that this will work eventually.

ETA: I would make Holly the outside next time. Have her approach you and Chloe instead of the other way around. That way Chloe will know that you are there for her... and Holly will understand Chloe's position in the house. Chloe is the resident, and though she may never be dominant Holly needs to understand that she is the interloper in this situation.

 

[chrono]

Excellent idea, Gypsy. I too was wondering how to show Holly that Chloe was there first and needed to be "respected".

 

[Gypsy]

Thanks Chrono.

 

[FireGoddess]

Gypsy this is exactly along the lines of what I was thinking. Part of me was so distraught I just wanted to do it last night, but I knew they needed to calm down. The only way this can happen is probably if I lock up Holly in a carrier and bring her into my bedroom. Or if I lock up Holly, get Chloe to come out and hold her in my arms, and then bring the carrier out in front of us. I agree that Holly needs to watch me interacting with Chloe and not be able to do anything about it. She may have reacted like she did because Chloe is always the approacher and Holly wants to ''defend'' us? I don''t know. But I recognized last night that Holly needs to see me petting Chloe and not be able to do anything about it. I''d love to be able to have Holly approach me holding Chloe, but that might take quite a bit of time - Chloe will likely be squirming to get out of there and I don''t want to completely freak her out by having Holly be loose.

I can''t tell you how glad I am that I have been training Holly that my bedroom is off limits. At least Chloe has a sanctuary. I did some more training last night by actually walking into my bedroom in front of Holly. She tried to follow me in there but got the water squirt. She even tried to dart in at one point but a hailstorm of squirting sent her back out. I think that really was a turning point - she would stand outside of the bedroom after that and cry/meow because she wanted to be near me, but didn''t dare go in the room. Chloe needs one safe place.

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 5/17/2007 1:21:51 PM
Author: AmberGretchen
Oh FG that is so hard, I know it feels like a huge setback. Honestly though, everything I've ever read says that they have to just work it out. Could you maybe try, the next time you're in the living room with Holly, having a toy at the ready and then when Chloe comes in you can start dangling it for Holly right away to distract her? I'm so sorry that was so traumatic for both you and Chloe, but I still think it sounds like overall excellent progress is being made, and so far nothing has happened that makes me think it can't still work out.

Thanks AG. I just felt so devastated because I know how much courage it must have taken Chloe to just walk right up to us. And then to get pounced on...AGH. The behavior book I have from the library says just that - to distract Holly when they're in the room together to prevent a confrontation.

I tried teaching Holly last night that when I call her name and snap she gets a treat (to be used as a distraction next time they're in the same room). It seemed to work...but not really - in the face of something she's seriously focused on she has a one track mind. I definitely have treats and toys in the living room though.

 

[Sparkles22]

FG~ How is Chloe adjusting? How''s Holly doing? (bumping for updates)

 

[FireGoddess]

Hey Sparkles!

I have kept them separated since ''the incident'' although Holly did see the shadow of Chloe''s paws under a door and even tried to pounce on those.

I''ve been putting socks with Chloe''s scent in Holly''s room so she can try do deal with it. Holly keeps sniffing under my bedroom door when I let her out of confinement. I''m sure she smells Chloe in there. I''m trying to give her treats when she sniffs, so she associates the smell with good things. I''m also trying to clicker train Holly. She already knows the clicker means treat, and can touch a target with her nose, sit, and *sometimes* come when I call her. LOL. She doesn''t know the vocal commands yet but it''s funny to watch her do those things often so she can get clicked and treated!

I have done work with Chloe to get her to feel comfortable in the living room again, since that''s where the fight took place. I leave treats for her out there and coax her to be petted there, so I think she''s okay. She still kinda gets very scared when she hears Holly yelling though.

I put a bird feeder outside the window for Holly to look at during the day. I think she likes it!

I think at some point I''m going to need baby gates for this...

 

[Gypsy]

Clicker training! You are such a great cat mommy FG! As to the cat gate... Holly might be able to jump over it.

 

[FireGoddess]

Oh yes Gypsy, that's why I need multiple gates. To stack. Ugh. She's really taken to the clicker training. I'm trying to erase her wild/survival behavior. I'm sure it will come with time. She's a bucket of purrs. She's still got some bitey-ness to her but it's less and less each passing day.

 

[Gypsy]

MUST. SNUGGLE. HOLLY.

Everytime you post one of her pics I just want to SNNNNNNNNUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEE!


Clicker training is brilliant. Which I''d thought of that with mine. Multiple gates. Oh boy. I''ll pray for you.

 

[VegasAngel]

So cute.


I''m a bad pet parent. I would have let them both have run of the house & let them work things out on their own.

 

[AmberGretchen]

SOOOOO CUUUUUUUUTE!!!

OMG, thanks for the update FG and especially for the pictures. She is just so gorgeous!!

I''m very impressed by the clicker training. We use it a lot with the dogs at the shelter but I''ve never heard of being used on a cat before. I''m very impressed with both of you

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 5/31/2007 1:19:34 PM
Author: VegasAngel
So cute.


I''m a bad pet parent. I would have let them both have run of the house & let them work things out on their own.

I''m not ruling that out someday...when I can''t take it anymore!!

AG, I was fascinated by the clicker training - read about it and heard a Humane Society volunteer talking about it, and thought what the heck - I''m going to do that with Holly since she''s young. I only do it for a few minutes each day - and she definitely gets it. We''ve got to work on the ''come when I call you'' thing. But such is the attitude of a cat. LOL!

 

[luckystar112]

I have a stray cat story that didn''t go so well.

About a month ago, I walked out of my garage and scared a small cat that was hiding in one of my bushes. She ran across the street and jumped down into the gutter! (I don''t know if it''s called a gutter, but it''s those passages on the curb that lead to under the street where water goes when it rains) Anyway, I spent an HOUR trying to lure the cat out with food. My neighbors must have thought I was nuts the way I was talking and meawing to the ground. I finally was able to reach my hand down there and grab her. I thought she was going to die in there! (It was about 5-6 feet deep under the ground) I later found out she could get out on her own.

Anyway, I started feeding her a lot, and she would always come around and snuggle by my feet whenever I left to go anywhere. I wanted to adopt her and let her come inside with my other cats. I let her in a couple of times, but my other cats tried to fight with her. Not only that, but I was worried about things like shots and rabies and fleas....especially with our bad flea problem already! So boyfriend said, "absolutely not...we don''t need another cat" and wouldn''t let me bring her in the house anymore. I set up a bed in the garage for her and left her food out every night. We even left the garage open about 6inches everynight so she could get in if she wanted to.

Well, a few days ago I was driving to the store and I saw that she had been hit by a car. Dead.

I was in denial, because the road is just outside my neighborhood and she was SOOO timid I couldn''t imagine her wanting to venture out that way, especially since we had been feeding it everyday. Part of me still thinks that she may be alive someplace, but I haven''t seen her since that day. I''m REALLY bummed about it. I just don''t know why she left the neighborhood. No one''s cats leave the neighborhood! I let my cat out everyday and he stays in the same two backyards. And he''s 18lbs, slow, and waddles everywhere....and he''s never been hit by a car!

 

[FireGoddess]

AGH.

That''s why I can''t deal with stray cats around...and feel like I am responsible to do something...I can''t deal with stories like that! And it''s why I want to choke people that just dump their pets and leave them homeless instead of taking them somewhere.

That story is just heartbreaking.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 5/31/2007 7:23:13 PM
Author: FireGoddess

AGH.

That''s why I can''t deal with stray cats around...and feel like I am responsible to do something...I can''t deal with stories like that! And it''s why I want to choke people that just dump their pets and leave them homeless instead of taking them somewhere.

That story is just heartbreaking.

Ditto

So sad...