Feeling numb

[Gypsy]

Date: 4/13/2008 1:20:29 AM
Author: arjunajane
Mrs J I am extremely relieved to hear that you''ve started your steps in the right direction.
Good for you and please do keep strong.

Ditto. Great first steps Mrs J!!!

 

[AGBF]

Date: 4/12/2008 5:13:25 PM

Author: mrs jam

Well, I have been productive. This morning my first errand was to change my cell phone number, so now he cannot contact me. So now all I have to do is to NOT call him ever again. I feel really good and stronger today than I have in a long time, and reading your posts have been a blessing. And for the people completely frustrated with me, God, do I understand your feelings. Someone asked what I would do if it was a friend of mine in this situation, and I would certainly to tell her to get the hell out. Quite frankly, I did need a kick in the butt.


So today's a good day, and that's great, but I realize it's all about how I act when I have the not-so-great days. I'm actually looking forward to talking with a counselor and then seeing about the Al-anon meeting after that. I feel like I am finally being pro-active, and I just want to maintain the effort. I've told myself that the end of every relationship is hard, and it's normal to feel sad, but in this case, it's more the loss of the dream than the loss of the reality. The reality was pretty much crap. So it's time to just put on my big girl pants and deal with it.

I don't believe in "kicking (anyone) in the butt" when s/he is suffering from depression. Usually life has kicked that person pretty hard already. I think that when someone is in trouble that person needs to know that there are people who will not turn their backs on him. Sometimes the person in trouble just needs help focusing. Our postings contained good material, but were all over the map. It is a miracle that you gleaned what you needed from them and were able to take the steps you did!

Why wait to go to Al-Anon? You can go before you start counseling if you want to. People there will also support you as we do.

You are doing a wonderful job!

Hugs,
Deb

 

[Ellen]

Date: 4/13/2008 8:03:59 AM
Author: AGBF


I don't believe in 'kicking (anyone) in the butt' when s/he is suffering from depression. Usually life has kicked that person pretty hard already. I think that when someone is in trouble that person needs to know that there are people who will not turn their backs on him. Sometimes the person in trouble just needs help focusing. Our postings contained good material, but were all over the map. It is a miracle that you gleaned what you needed from them and were able to take the steps you did!

Why wait to go to Al-Anon? You can go before you start counseling if you want to. People there will also support you as we do.

You are doing a wonderful job!

Hugs,
Deb

A big AMEN to your post Deb. I read this thread, and couldn't believe the tone of some of the posts.

I've watched my adult kids and friends of mine take a long time to finally "get" some things in life, but I can assure you, screaming/yelling the obvious at them has never been a consideration. In fact, yelling usually causes one to "turn off/shut down". Simply "being there" to calmly offer support/direction is a much more productive approach, no matter how long it takes.


Mrs. jam, I am really glad you have finally realized this relationship was not healthy. I know it's been hard getting here, but look at it this way. It's just the end of a chapter, time to turn the page, and look forward with excitement to the rest of your life.

I wish you much, much luck in the future.

 

[chiapet]

Good job Mrs. Jam! Keep up the spirit and be strong.

 

[choro72]

Yay! If you ever doubt your decision, come back here and we will set you straight

 

[luckystar112]

So proud of your mrs.jam!!! Please tell us your progress!

 

[tulip928]

"He tells me that my family loves me, but I''m only a secondary relationship for them because my dad has remarried, my mom is dead, and my brothers have families now of their own. When he finally returned my call, he was very angry."

This statement from him sums up his total strategy of DEVALUING you to control you. You are going through the endless cycle of "devalue and discard" which will happen endlessly as long as you continue your relationship in any way with him. He is personality disordered and mentally ill. For your own mental health, NO CONTACT is the way to go so you can heal from this trauma.

I have not read all the other comments - most likely you have already been told this! I had to respond when I read this part of your post.

 

[tulip928]

Adding to my above post - I see you have taken positive steps. Good for you!

Here''s a great site that might help you:

http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/general.msnw

 

[movie zombie]

there also used to be another group for help: Emotions Anonymous.

movie zombie

ps how''d the weekend go?

 

[AGBF]

Hi, mrs jam! For some reason I thought your counseling appointment was for today and I was going to ask you to report back to us about it. Then I reread your posting and you had just said that the appointment was going to be this week, not on Monday (today). I made up Monday, I guess . What day is your appointment and with whom do you have it? How did you find the counselor? Is it someone you already know and with whom you know you will be comfortable? If not, it is anxiety-provoking to take that step of meeting someone new. Please know that not all counselors and therapists are alike and that if one does not "feel" right to you, that you should not stay. There are many therapists out there and the person to whom you talk should feel right when you meet him or her.

Remember that we are here and that you can come back and tell us about it! I am thinking about you.

Deborah

 

[AGBF]

Date: 4/13/2008 6:51:39 PM
Author: choro72
Yay! If you ever doubt your decision, come back here and we will set you straight

She can also come back here to tell us that it is hard to do the right thing, but that she is doing it. Or that she had a slip, but regrets it. Or that she is lonely. Or that the counseling is frightening. Or that she feels she deserves a pat on the back. Or for just any reason at all. As far as I am concerned, the love for mrs jam here is unconditional. She is one of us. She is doing her best. That is all I ask .


Deborah

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 4/14/2008 1:19:24 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 4/13/2008 6:51:39 PM
Author: choro72
Yay! If you ever doubt your decision, come back here and we will set you straight

She can also come back here to tell us that it is hard to do the right thing, but that she is doing it. Or that she had a slip, but regrets it. Or that she is lonely. Or that the counseling is frightening. Or that she feels she deserves a pat on the back. Or for just any reason at all. As far as I am concerned, the love for mrs jam here is unconditional. She is one of us. She is doing her best. That is all I ask .


Deborah

BIG HUGE DITTO here!!


ETA: Add another ditto for Deb's other posts espe: re" 'kick in the pants" and depression. I've been clinically depressed before, and actually AM again right now. Yelling screaming shouting, kicking anywhere is not useful AT ALL. Counterproductive actually.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 4/11/2008 5:56:10 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 4/11/2008 4:24:08 PM
Author: Gypsy

Date: 4/11/2008 4:20:12 PM
Author: HollyS

WHY DO YOU KEEP GOING BACK FOR MORE OF THE SAME??????

You are an educated woman; how can you be this clueless???

Everyone here, to a person, agrees that you need to DROP HIM THIS INSTANT AND NEVER HAVE CONTACT WITH HIM AGAIN. And yet, you keep asking for more grief. And, you ''don''t know who to believe''.

I really think this needs to be the last post on this subject. Either you are going to get help -- AND STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM HIM -- or you aren''t. We don''t want to hear you justify his behavior again; ''cause I''ll be frank if no one else will, you appear to be your own worst enemy.

Hollly I fail to see how YELLING at the OP and berating her are helping this situation. You''ve posted repeatedly in this thread, all in caps, and normally very critical and in this case actually berating her.

Abuse is not an easy cycle to break. That the whole point. And you can''t break it by yelling at a person repeatedly and bullying them.

Yelling is perhaps what she needs most. She certainly isn''t ''listening'' to any quietly presented advice. This has been going on for months now; she didn''t take any steps to extricate herself before.

I can not express how fundementally wrong I feel your comments are here. It is clear to me, at least, that while you ARE trying to help the Op, Holly, you are not aware and have not been exposed to the cycles of abuse and depression. It saddens me to see such a lack of empathy and understanding from a fellow PSer-- and such a lack of awareness about how potentially damaging your comments are in this situation.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 4/14/2008 1:34:59 PM

Author: Gypsy

I''ve been clinically depressed before, and actually AM again right now.

Consider yourself hugged, Layla. Your life situation has been so tough that you have earned yourself a situational depression, even if you didn''t have any tendency towards depression! I am so sorry that you are going through this now, though. I won''t threadjack further, but I will be thinking about you, woman!

Love,
Deb

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 4/14/2008 1:54:30 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 4/14/2008 1:34:59 PM

Author: Gypsy

I''ve been clinically depressed before, and actually AM again right now.

Consider yourself hugged, Layla. Your life situation has been so tough that you have earned yourself a situational depression, even if you didn''t have any tendency towards depression! I am so sorry that you are going through this now, though. I won''t threadjack further, but I will be thinking about you, woman!

Love,
Deb

Thank you Deb, I GREATLY appreciate the hug and really needed it. Very much... got the sniffles now.

Okay, back to regularly scheduled thread!

 

[HollyS]

Date: 4/14/2008 1:42:50 PM
Author: Gypsy

Date: 4/11/2008 5:56:10 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 4/11/2008 4:24:08 PM
Author: Gypsy

Date: 4/11/2008 4:20:12 PM
Author: HollyS

WHY DO YOU KEEP GOING BACK FOR MORE OF THE SAME??????

You are an educated woman; how can you be this clueless???

Everyone here, to a person, agrees that you need to DROP HIM THIS INSTANT AND NEVER HAVE CONTACT WITH HIM AGAIN. And yet, you keep asking for more grief. And, you ''don''t know who to believe''.

I really think this needs to be the last post on this subject. Either you are going to get help -- AND STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM HIM -- or you aren''t. We don''t want to hear you justify his behavior again; ''cause I''ll be frank if no one else will, you appear to be your own worst enemy.

Hollly I fail to see how YELLING at the OP and berating her are helping this situation. You''ve posted repeatedly in this thread, all in caps, and normally very critical and in this case actually berating her.

Abuse is not an easy cycle to break. That the whole point. And you can''t break it by yelling at a person repeatedly and bullying them.

Yelling is perhaps what she needs most. She certainly isn''t ''listening'' to any quietly presented advice. This has been going on for months now; she didn''t take any steps to extricate herself before.

I can not express how fundementally wrong I feel your comments are here. It is clear to me, at least, that while you ARE trying to help the Op, Holly, you are not aware and have not been exposed to the cycles of abuse and depression. It saddens me to see such a lack of empathy and understanding from a fellow PSer-- and such a lack of awareness about how potentially damaging your comments are in this situation.

You are right that I have not been subjected to this kind of abuse. I''m completely appalled at the sheer number of women here who have. No, I don''t believe I''ve been lucky; but I have been very careful about my relationships. So perhaps my viewpoint is less than sympathetic; it is not, however, without real concern for the OP. Every choice we make in life is just that . . . a choice. There is never a good reason, an okay reason, a good excuse, a rationalization, or anything else that will excuse the allowing of a boyfriend or husband to abuse you. It''s not about money, reputation, independence, the upheaval of lives, the uprooting of children. It is about safety, sanity, and self-esteem. And every one of the posters who have experienced spousal/BF abuse had to, at some point, come to that realization.

Time will tell if the OP will actually disengage herself from this nightmare. I tend to agree with another poster that she takes some perverse pleasure in perpetuating her own abuse by going back for more. I think lovely words and kind thoughts can only go so far in some cases; sometimes people just need to be told the straight scoop. In doing so, feelings will be hurt and egos will be bruised. Better feelings and egos than bodies; ''cause that is exactly what the future holds for this gal if she decides to return to the abuser.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 4/14/2008 2:43:15 PM
Author: HollyS

I tend to agree with another poster that she takes some perverse pleasure in perpetuating her own abuse by going back for more.

Wow. To you and the original person who said this. I SINCERELY, sincerley, sincerely hope that neither of you, or any of your close friends, or children are ever in an abusive situation/relationship. And if God fobid, you are... you find more help and sympathy than you''ve both offered here. I really do. That''s all I''m going to say.

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 4/14/2008 2:48:04 PM
Author: Gypsy

Date: 4/14/2008 2:43:15 PM
Author: HollyS

I tend to agree with another poster that she takes some perverse pleasure in perpetuating her own abuse by going back for more.

Wow. To you and the original person who said this. I SINCERELY, sincerley, sincerely hope that neither of you, or any of your close friends, or children are ever in an abusive situation/relationship. And if God fobid, you are... you find more help and sympathy than you''ve both offered here. I really do. That''s all I''m going to say.

Ditto, thritto, and QUADritto what Gypsy said. It''s easy to condemn someone for not being as strong as you THINK you would be, but it''s a hell of a lot harder to be in the situation itself, and even the strongest of people can find it difficult to extricate themselves from entanglements such as these. Let''s try not to be UNKIND while offering suggestions.

 

[omieluv]

Mrs. Jam,
I am glad to see you are starting to take positive steps!

It really does take a great amount of strength and courage to battle back from an abusive situation, so I really do applaud you. Since I do not have access to the Internet on weekends, I quickly scanned through some of your posts. From what I could tell you say you know the relationship is not normal and you seem to be wondering why it has been difficult for you to end the abusive relationship. You seem like a caring individual and even perhaps someone who really wants to see the good in people. If this is the case, then part of the reason could have to do with the fact that you see his better side during the "make-up" phase of the abuse cycle. So, when he is being a jerk, you think back to times when he has not been such a jerk. Your brain is telling you this is not a good situation, but you have become so emotionally dependant on this guy that it is probably difficult for you to break the cycle.

You also mention that he is the 1st person you have had a relationship with since your divorce (right?). I know you mention that your divorce went amicably, but still, I cannot imagine that you were completely happy. With divorce comes stress, adjustment, and lots of other stuff that can vary from person to person. You have to also consider your state of mind before coming to the decision of the divorce. People do not usually get a divorce if they are happy. My whole point is, that you might have been vulnerable when you met that guy. Usually abusive relationships do not start out as abusive as they end. I am quite sure things escalated over time and you gradually got sucked in. So starting out in a vulnerable spot might not have helped. (Note: if this was not your 1st relationship after the divorce, some of what I typed might not make sense).

Again, I do not know you, so please do not take what I said as an analysis of your feelings, however, what I did tell you comes from some stories of women who were formally abused.

Depression is also a tricky and malicious disease too & once that sets in, it is incredibly difficult to manage on your own. However, there are lots of options for people now.

 

[HollyS]

Date: 4/14/2008 2:48:04 PM
Author: Gypsy

Date: 4/14/2008 2:43:15 PM
Author: HollyS

I tend to agree with another poster that she takes some perverse pleasure in perpetuating her own abuse by going back for more.

Wow. To you and the original person who said this. I SINCERELY, sincerley, sincerely hope that neither of you, or any of your close friends, or children are ever in an abusive situation/relationship. And if God fobid, you are... you find more help and sympathy than you''ve both offered here. I really do. That''s all I''m going to say.

Help we''ve offered. Sympathy ended after the third post by the OP. We are still concerned for her; just not sympathetic.

 

[decodelighted]

Good for you, Mrs. Jam. Applaud your lack of further contact & all the other steps you''ve taken. Wishing you continued strength in this difficult time.

As to the "good help" vs "bad help" debate -- different things resonate for different people. I, too, have suffered from depression & have been involved in an unhealthy relationship with someone who I later realized to have a personality disorder. Ironically a therapist was trying to keep me *IN* that relationship ... my escape from it was also an escape from her treatment. Six years later the fella was still stalking me and *another* therapist helped me confirm my initial judgment of him. Even good therapists can be wrong (mine previous one was very talented & helpful for many years before being so, SO wrong about that guy). And even depressives can respond to "tough talk" from time to time. I think its a mistake to label "helpful" & "unhelpful" based on your own experiences. Hopefully Mrs. Jam will find advice & support & maybe even a wake up call amongst our words ...

 

[omieluv]

Date: 4/14/2008 4:07:52 PM
Author: decodelighted
Good for you, Mrs. Jam. Applaud your lack of further contact & all the other steps you've taken. Wishing you continued strength in this difficult time.

As to the 'good help' vs 'bad help' debate -- different things resonate for different people. I, too, have suffered from depression & have been involved in an unhealthy relationship with someone who I later realized to have a personality disorder. Ironically a therapist was trying to keep me *IN* that relationship ... my escape from it was also an escape from her treatment. Six years later the fella was still stalking me and *another* therapist helped me confirm my initial judgment of him. Even good therapists can be wrong (mine previous one was very talented & helpful for many years before being so, SO wrong about that guy). And even depressives can respond to 'tough talk' from time to time. I think its a mistake to label 'helpful' & 'unhelpful' based on your own experiences. Hopefully Mrs. Jam will find advice & support & maybe even a wake up call amongst our words ...

I have to agree with you deco on much of what you said. Plain and simple, people are different and respond in different ways depending on the therapeutic situation. This is why there are several forms of therapy and therapists out there to serve people. Of course, this means that it can take a while to find the right therapist for you, so it can take considerable effort.

Mrs. Jam - Since you seem to be taking positive actions, I would be curious to find out what type of advice you have found helpful, or is it more of a combination of all of our voices?

 

[simplysplendid]

Hi,

I think even though HollyS delivered her message strongly, there is some truth in what she has said -- "There is never a good reason, an okay reason, a good excuse, a rationalization, or anything else that will excuse the allowing of a boyfriend or husband to abuse you. It''s not about money, reputation, independence, the upheaval of lives, the uprooting of children. It is about safety, sanity, and self-esteem."

Though one cannot be blamed for the lack of self-esteem as in most cases, this situation is an outcome of upbringing or certain life events. It is, however, true that when one has low self-esteem or self-worth, one tends to think that he/she does not deserve to be better treatment and that he/she deserves the abuse that they are getting. As in this case, Mrs Jam is indeed trying to rationalise that the abuse she is receiving is justified and that she somehow deserves it.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 4/14/2008 4:16:35 PM

Author: omieluv

people are different and respond in different ways depending on the therapeutic situation. This is why there are several forms of therapy and therapists out there to serve people.

I think that this is quite right. I have also seen it at work in Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). Some people, who would wither and run from the program if handled roughly by AA sponsors, need gentle sponsors. Some alcoholics will tell you that they need sponsors who will kick them in the pants and that they could not have gotten sober unless they had found them.

I limited my own comments to how I, personally, feel about handling depressed people.

There is no question that some people who are in denial need to be challenged about self-destructive behavior. The question is how they should be challenged and when.

Deborah

 

[HollyS]

I''ll just add one more thing, and then I''ll stop hijacking the thread:

While I personally have not experienced abuse, I had a dear friend who spent 20 years as a counselor in a women''s shelter. She felt that this was a calling she needed to heed because she had once been an abused wife. She did have personal experience in similiar circumstances as her charges, and yet, she very often would get angry at some of them for returning to the abuse, or their lack of motivation in getting their lives back together without the abuser. She was constantly frustrated, but knew it was neccessary for her and others to keep ''pushing and prodding'' people into treatment, etc. Very often, she had to be ''unkind''. But she never stopped caring. She continued this very stressful job well past her terminal diagnosis of a chronic, debilitating lung disease. So many of her coworkers simply quit out of frustration; abuse is a cycle and they kept re-admitting the same people over and over again. Just like our OP has been down this road before. I''m hoping it will be the last walk for her down memory lane.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 4/14/2008 7:02:55 PM
Author: HollyS

I''ll just add one more thing, and then I''ll stop hijacking the thread:

Holly, You''re not hijacking the thread. You are always on topic. BTW, your next posting puts you at 1,000. Congratulations!


Deb

 

[diamondfan]

I think it is easy, from the outside looking in, to sort of assume there is some gain in staying in what is clearly a bad relationship. In the field of psychology there is a situation called secondary gain in which a person does gain something that is somehow rewarding from the situation. And I have known people, as I am sure we all have, who seem to KNOW something is bad, have heard it from all of those around them, and yet still stay involved. It is easy to think that the person is somehow enjoying or getting something that they like out of it. I just think, though of course that can be true, that it is more tough than we realize to extricate ourselves from something.

I had a boyfriend hit me, stalk me, nearly rape me and choke me, physically stop me from leaving, threaten me...and I STILL felt SORRY for him and STILL thought I LOVED him. (I was 18 and easily manipulated). I broke up with him and went back with him multiple times. And I never saw examples of that treatment in my life nor thought I would ever let someone abuse me that way; if a friend told me she dealt with 1/10th of what I put up with I would have bodily taken her to a therapist. So tough love aside, which I am fine with conceptually in real life in certain situations, I think Mrs. Jam knows this is not a normal, safe or reasonable relationship. I hope she sees that, and can be really strong enough to get out. It will be tough, as guys like this are total masters at making the partner think they deserve this and should try harder to please, but she must have good support in her life to get through this.

 

[monarch64]

Mrs.Jam (and anyone else who may be in a similar situation or know someone who is), I wanted to share a website with you:

www.youarenotcrazy.com

Don''t skip the intro. I hope you are doing ok, stay strong.

 

[movie zombie]

actually, there is a lot of truth in Holly''s statement: people get tired of hearing the same song w/o a change in the dance. and it is another part of the cycle of recognizing and getting out of an abusive situation. however, its not until YOU get tired of hearing yourself sing the same song and dancing the same dance that YOU will make changes. been there and done that: one night after a few glasses of wine at a party with a group of women, i really got tired of hearing myself say the same thing i''d been saying for quite a long time........i was a broken record crying my blues. if it had gotten old to me, i shutter to think how old it had gotten to others. just another aspect to think about, Mrs. Jam.

but i''m not saying you shouldn''t post here! everyone is on your side, in your corner, and wants to see you get the best out of life.....now we want you to be on your own side, in your own corner, and for you to want to get the best out of life.

and i also agree with the comment re being vulnerable after your divorce......... i highly recommend setting a until you get yourself sorted out.

movie zombie

 

[mrs jam]

I went to my counseling appt. today. I think it is going to be really good for me. She is a cognitive therapist. She told me that for today, she was going to just listen to me talk all about HIM, but that in the future, we would be talking about ME. Which goes along with what I have been reading on here: Yes, he may be an abuser, but it''s not about fixing him. It''s about fixing me and making sure that I don''t let myself become involved in another abusive relationship, and also trusting my instincts more and recognizing signs and indicators of a possible abuser.

She told me the analogy that I have heard before about the frog and the pot of boiling water. If you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, he will jump right out. But if you put a frog into a pot of tepid water, and slowly and gradually increase the heat, he won''t even notice how hot it''s getting until it''s too late. It''s simplistic, I know, but the comparison really made sense to me. Deb, she also highly recommends I attend Al-Anon. I have all the information about meetings, so that is my next step.

I really feel good right now. Better than I ever imagined I would feel at this time last week. This weekend I forced myself into focusing on other people and other activities, and I actually had some fun. This morning I had my teaching evaluation, and although I haven''t had my post-conference yet to get the official results, my principal told me I "rocked it!" That makes me feel amazing!

Again, I want you all to know how much strength your posts give to me. I reread each page every evening when I tend to feel the weakest, and I feel so supported by you and blessed to have you all. For the posters who have experienced this situation, thank you for giving me the hope of knowing that I CAN come out on the other side of this, and I will be a better, wiser person for it. I am crying right now, but for joy and love and gratitude, and just the sheer blessing of being UNDERSTOOD.