JohnQuixote
Ideal_Rock
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The Cartier store at the Houston Galleria has small LEDs inside the cases. You can't see them unless you look for them but you can see the effect on the diamonds.
Diamonds in Diamond Dock Videos
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pricescope
Ideal_Rock
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Matatora. Yes you're right - I forgot about them. I think they are the same type of lights as they have in the ceilings.
JohnQuixote
Ideal_Rock
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The whole point of bright spotlighting is to make all diamonds, even average/below average diamonds, perform well. It works because the sheer volume of light return overwhelms any fine-tuning of the cut. It is an especially smart tactic in stores carrying average cuts... Almost every common chain store does this.
My understanding is that the DeBeers store is carrying diamonds of average cut. Logically, they have upped the ante with the type and placement of lights in their setup.
I've always admired private dealers who show diamonds in realistic lighting conditions first, then show clients what the diamond would look like in strategic jewelry store lighting.
adamasgem
Brilliant_Rock
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I guess the first question to ask is how bright the overall lighting was..
Dimmer ambient lighting with point sources brings out fire..
Scintillation (or light/dark contrast areas) is "improved" by assymetry but the assymetry produces pinfire dispersion rather than broadflash fire.
I guess all the stones had the broad range GIA EX paper???
pricescope
Ideal_Rock
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Yes - ambient lightning was rather dim. I asked about the certs and was told that all the diamonds over 1ct comes with GIA and DeBeers certificates (I wasn''t realy interested so I could miss something about certifications).
adamasgem
Brilliant_Rock
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The dimmer overall lighting makes sense for a "finer" establishment. Was the decor modern or old school "private library" traditional and warm?
Secret in a dimmer lighting with pinpoint lights is to move away from the stones to see when the fire is "lost". The higher the symmetry, the better the stone looks from farther away..
Is the store at the St Regis Hotel?
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Oh yes Cym.Date: 4/11/2006 12:15:37 AM
Author: cymbrie
Well I''m no expert, but I certainly enjoyed the videos VERY cool THANKYOUVERYMUCH...now will we be seeing any asschers under the diamond doc anytime soon?
MissAva
Ideal_Rock
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It is modern, glass, chrome and frosted windows. I think the floors were concrete down stairs and very dense short carpeting upstairs. It has a neat little video of a diamond having different light sources on a clear glass wall next to a small lounge area. The walls were a darkly stained wood, the stair windows were frosted simarly to the LV store up the block. The DeBeers store is on 5th I believe.
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Bad form mate. How do you think this makes Kaleigh feel? I never made these videos to start an arguement or debate. They are meant for educational reasons and to help people learn. Let''s not steer this in unwanted directions. As strm suggested, if you have constructive ideas to improve lighting etc. we''re all ears. To just sit back and criticize, condemn and complain and not offer constructive ways to help make things better isn''t edifying to the community here.Date: 4/11/2006 12:56:20 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
sorry Storm, its just 2 funnyDate: 4/11/2006 12:43:29 AM
Author: kaleigh
Ok so you guys disagree, fine. But slinging insults isn''t productive and sheds a bad light on what is trying to be accomplished here. No pun intended. Hehe. But seriously for those that want to learn, as I do this negative mud slinging is counter productive as Storm mentioned above.
Let me ask ... Garry ... if you hate leds so much what kind of spot lighting do you suggest?
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Marty ... these images beg the question ... what real world lighting environment do these images display?!?
What I find very comical about this whole discussion is over the years I have talked and debated with you guys about various technologies, what they show, what they don''t show ... etc. and I believe in presenting a balanced view on any information presented. In our tutorials I point out both strengths and weakness of each.
Now I find myself debating the technology of the human eye and what they see under diffuse day light and direct led lights. So, every diffuse daylight source and spot light source in the world is just fine EXCEPT for the one GIA uses or recommends?
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Which begs the question ... when will you find yourself under 5000 leds?Date: 4/11/2006 1:22:10 AM
Author: jasontb
5000 light sources
Marty, I could poke some serious holes in this however it is not conducive nor contructive to the interest of helping people.
I understand there are various scopes and viewers that teach information about diamonds and reflect how they may appear in certain lighting environments. Like you mentoined earlier, the BrillianceScope and the analog BrillianceScope viewer have alot of information to share regarding light performance in diamonds but we must *always* bear in mind that diamonds are never viewed in a symmetrically lit environment. Never.
The most important research one will ever conduct who uses any technology, is how that technology corellates to the eyes of the end consumer because it is their eyes that must be pleased at the end of the day, regardless of any professional opinion. If one technology (even red reflectors) say one thing and the human eye does not corellate ... that reflector image can be flushed down the toilet as far as I''m concerned (and I''d say the same for all of them).
The real test of your new device Marty ... how does the common layman view the stone that your technology says is "best"? ''
That is the answer that must be sought.
adamasgem
Brilliant_Rock
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Rhino.. If you would bother to do your research, you will find I''m not using LED''s....Date: 4/11/2006 6:29:09 PM
Author: Rhino
Which begs the question ... when will you find yourself under 5000 leds?Date: 4/11/2006 1:22:10 AM
Author: jasontb
5000 light sources
And you use a pluarality of sources such that you don''t alias any result...
adamasgem
Brilliant_Rock
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Not to get into an argument with you Rhino, but I seriously doubt that you could technically poke a hole out of a paper bag.. (Physically you could !!!!)
But that is only my opinion..
You may be a very good merchant, but as to the technical, I have serious doubts, from what I have seen over the years.
FireGoddess
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Regardless of who prefers x for y reason, as a layperson, I really enjoyed the videos and found them quite interesting and enlightening. Yes, I said enLIGHTening. No comments on that now.
Thanks for the videos!!
Thanks for the videos!!
JohnQuixote
Ideal_Rock
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I actually said this in your defense Rhino. My suggestion would be that some differences between you and the scientists are because your viewpoints appear to shift with time. Firescope, BrillianceScope, Isee2 and now DD have taken their turn as the vehicle you use to deliver truth. Those changes occur as you incorporate each new device into your store.
On this count I must side with the scientists. The advice I gave to consumers about diamond beauty a year ago is the same as it will be tomorrow. Beauty is a constant for me, and diamonds that were premium in beauty to me years ago still appear just as beautiful today. They don’t change due to a trade-based study. I look at diamonds, not paper.
It could be interpreted that the Rhino of today is selling a different ‘science’ than the Rhino of yesterday. That does make it seem a bit like merchandising. I guess I would ask in reply, what are you using Diamond Dock for in your store?
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Firstly Jonathon, lighten up mate.Date: 4/11/2006 6:08:13 PM
Author: Rhino
Bad form mate. How do you think this makes Kaleigh feel? I never made these videos to start an arguement or debate. They are meant for educational reasons and to help people learn. Let''s not steer this in unwanted directions. As strm suggested, if you have constructive ideas to improve lighting etc. we''re all ears. To just sit back and criticize, condemn and complain and not offer constructive ways to help make things better isn''t edifying to the community here.Date: 4/11/2006 12:56:20 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
sorry Storm, its just 2 funnyDate: 4/11/2006 12:43:29 AM
Author: kaleigh
Ok so you guys disagree, fine. But slinging insults isn''t productive and sheds a bad light on what is trying to be accomplished here. No pun intended. Hehe. But seriously for those that want to learn, as I do this negative mud slinging is counter productive as Storm mentioned above.
Let me ask ... Garry ... if you hate leds so much what kind of spot lighting do you suggest?
This is not life and death stuff.
It should be a debate - and from it we can each learn stuff.
Re my lighting environment - see this thread and please join in https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/garrys-diamond-viewing-room.43330/
And re "debate" - one of the key ideas in debating is to try to defend the oppositions view point - it means you need to (customer - will continue later)
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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John you missed one important thing the quality of the diamonds he selects hasn't changed.
The tools he uses to show the performance to remotely located consumers has changed.
There is a difference between the 2.
The gog classic has not changed since iv known him.
I has and is sold along side other high performance round diamonds that have varied and they have been cut by at-least 4 different cutters but the quality is still there.
When I first came to PS it was the GOG specials and the GOG classics, variations on the same theme both kicken just slightly different.
The cutter for the GOG specials was put out of business by DeBeer's SOC programs but the GOG classics are the same today as then whether they are cut by the original cutter or the other current one.
The quality is there they have not changed.
Now he uses helium scans and gem files, isee2 and other tools that were not available back then to show what he already knows they are kicken diamonds.
In the same way that WF uses IS images and occasionally heart images to show the same.
Don't confuse the tools with the diamonds.
Now its fair to mention some of the sideline rounds he has carried like the diamonds with painted girdles and the current short LGF diamonds and the diamonds by another cutter that has a slightly different look but the heart and soul of the GOG line was and remains and will be the GOG classic cut.
The WF classics have been there the whole time and likely longer don't get me wrong there he isn't the only one, lots of props to Brian for that :}
For a lesser time the WF newline which started out as a sideline for WF and now is what about 1/2? WF hasn't been standing still either.
That isn't a bad thing, its a good thing. Some lines work out some dont...
This is too long allready so im not going to get into a discussion of fancy shaped diamonds.
Now before someone accuses me of being too pro GOG, just a while back I was defending John/WF about the painted girdle diamonds and have pointed out the areas I disagree with Jon on in regards to Led lighting.
So dont even go there.
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 4/11/2006 8:17:53 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Date: 4/11/2006 6:08:13 PM
Author: Rhino
Date: 4/11/2006 12:56:20 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Date: 4/11/2006 12:43:29 AM
Author: kaleigh
Ok so you guys disagree, fine. But slinging insults isn''t productive and sheds a bad light on what is trying to be accomplished here. No pun intended. Hehe. But seriously for those that want to learn, as I do this negative mud slinging is counter productive as Storm mentioned above.
sorry Storm, its just 2 funny
Bad form mate. How do you think this makes Kaleigh feel? I never made these videos to start an arguement or debate. They are meant for educational reasons and to help people learn. Let''s not steer this in unwanted directions. As strm suggested, if you have constructive ideas to improve lighting etc. we''re all ears. To just sit back and criticize, condemn and complain and not offer constructive ways to help make things better isn''t edifying to the community here.
Let me ask ... Garry ... if you hate leds so much what kind of spot lighting do you suggest?
Firstly Jonathon, lighten up mate.
This is not life and death stuff.
Maybe not life and death but there is a very solid line that should not be crossed and you crossed it in that post in reply to kaleigh.
You want to pick on a consumer then pick on me and ill give it to ya right back and its kewl but don''t be doing that to other consumers.
You know better and are a better person than that.
Hopefully you have apologised to her.
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- Aug 15, 2000
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thx storm for the roll call.
I agree - nothing wrong with Rhino and his diamonds -and yes we can have discussions where we agree and disagree - Brian''s yaw is still azimuth shift to me, no matter how many long winded stories and examples he gives - but we will still raise a glass or 2 at Vegas.
Now Jonathon - Debating - a great skill is to try to see things from the other persons vantage point. That would mean reading my journal article and understanding WHY I dont like DD. and all of you should try to get your heads around sergey''s ''background'' brightness concept (I do not believe anyone other than Leonid has yet).
Marty - your toy is also just another toy too (until proven otherwise). Albeit one that makes very pretty images
. I think I have said this before - Brilliance is the enemy of fire. To see the dispersion you are showing is rare in our every day environments.
But today you gave one helpful example - you said great symmetry allows us to see the fire from a greater difference......... great concept.....educate us more.......is there a simple test we can all perform????
And as for LED''s, Rhino they are salesmans tricks in my mind until they are common in our everyday environments (as i am sure they will be in 5 years time).
I agree - nothing wrong with Rhino and his diamonds -and yes we can have discussions where we agree and disagree - Brian''s yaw is still azimuth shift to me, no matter how many long winded stories and examples he gives - but we will still raise a glass or 2 at Vegas.
Now Jonathon - Debating - a great skill is to try to see things from the other persons vantage point. That would mean reading my journal article and understanding WHY I dont like DD. and all of you should try to get your heads around sergey''s ''background'' brightness concept (I do not believe anyone other than Leonid has yet).
Marty - your toy is also just another toy too (until proven otherwise). Albeit one that makes very pretty images
But today you gave one helpful example - you said great symmetry allows us to see the fire from a greater difference......... great concept.....educate us more.......is there a simple test we can all perform????
And as for LED''s, Rhino they are salesmans tricks in my mind until they are common in our everyday environments (as i am sure they will be in 5 years time).
I think the point here really comes down, to letting the consumers see and evaluate diamonds in the greatest number of PROPER viewpoints.
There is a difference between those devices that assist in analysis. I have a lot of different light sources, and I as well as consumers that are here get the benefit of seeing diamonds they are considering in ALL of them.
I have lighting with various colors temps, led''s, solux, bscope viewer, window light, diffused lighting, halogen and daylight fluorescents.
In some views I use, filters with lights and incandescents too. One of the most revealing light sources is a flame in total darkness. I have some others that are propretary as well.
Different lighting environments show up different characteristics, and I think seeing them all
I don''t have a DD and don''t see where it is all that beneficial to what I already take advantage of. I have seen enough very, very well cut stones to be able to ascertain the very best from the best.
From the images that Marty posted vs. the images from the DD, I don''t think the price being charged represents a good value, and as many have pointed out quite controversial. The judgment here should be made as "the diamond won''t ever be in that environment" but one needs to segrate their thinking from the ivory tower lab world and assess the results in the real life practical world as well. I think it is true that in the "normal" world environment, that the differences are difficult to see - but the real benefit of all the varied equipment, makes it easier to evaluate and compare.
But what I see of more concern, is having a novice eye, make judgments without unbiased expert guidance. I have experimented with this extensively. I will ask what a consumer sees as far as visible characteristics are concerned, then I will point out what my eye sees, in educating the consumer''s eyes. Until the novice eye is rather extensively taught what to look at and see, assuming the quality made by that eye is more often than not incorrect.
Rockdoc
There is a difference between those devices that assist in analysis. I have a lot of different light sources, and I as well as consumers that are here get the benefit of seeing diamonds they are considering in ALL of them.
I have lighting with various colors temps, led''s, solux, bscope viewer, window light, diffused lighting, halogen and daylight fluorescents.
In some views I use, filters with lights and incandescents too. One of the most revealing light sources is a flame in total darkness. I have some others that are propretary as well.
Different lighting environments show up different characteristics, and I think seeing them all
I don''t have a DD and don''t see where it is all that beneficial to what I already take advantage of. I have seen enough very, very well cut stones to be able to ascertain the very best from the best.
From the images that Marty posted vs. the images from the DD, I don''t think the price being charged represents a good value, and as many have pointed out quite controversial. The judgment here should be made as "the diamond won''t ever be in that environment" but one needs to segrate their thinking from the ivory tower lab world and assess the results in the real life practical world as well. I think it is true that in the "normal" world environment, that the differences are difficult to see - but the real benefit of all the varied equipment, makes it easier to evaluate and compare.
But what I see of more concern, is having a novice eye, make judgments without unbiased expert guidance. I have experimented with this extensively. I will ask what a consumer sees as far as visible characteristics are concerned, then I will point out what my eye sees, in educating the consumer''s eyes. Until the novice eye is rather extensively taught what to look at and see, assuming the quality made by that eye is more often than not incorrect.
Rockdoc
Mara
Super_Ideal_Rock
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there sure is alot of testosterone in this room!!!!
what is Garry apologizing for? all he did was highlight a pun that kaleigh herself laughed at....lighten up people!
you guys just need to all chill out and have a beer along with your discussions. Garry is pouring.
what is Garry apologizing for? all he did was highlight a pun that kaleigh herself laughed at....lighten up people!
you guys just need to all chill out and have a beer along with your discussions. Garry is pouring.
- Joined
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- 18,484
Date: 4/11/2006 12:43:29 AM
Author: kaleigh
Ok so you guys disagree, fine. But slinging insults isn''t productive and sheds a bad light on what is trying to be accomplished here. No pun intended. Hehe. But seriously for those that want to learn, as I do this negative mud slinging is counter productive as Storm mentioned above.
Kaleigh if I offended you then I sincerely apologise. I thought it was quite amusing and I thought from your response later that you did too.
I am interested in the issues - not the BS. Marty can get a little rough at times - but Rhino has been around a long time and knows that is his nature (and that is no excuse). Marty ...behave yourself!
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well said RocDoc
belle
Super_Ideal_Rock
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garry must stay in good with the girls...whatever it takesDate: 4/11/2006 9:20:58 PM
Author: Mara
there sure is alot of testosterone in this room!!!!
what is Garry apologizing for? all he did was highlight a pun that kaleigh herself laughed at....lighten up people!
you guys just need to all chill out and have a beer along with your discussions. Garry is pouring.
did someone say beer!?
Kaleigh
Super_Ideal_Rock
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I did mean it to be funny. But what I said about the mud slinging, I meant with sincerity. I try to infuse humor when I can. Was in a car accident tonight. Hubby was backing out of the driveway and we were hit by the neighbor from hell. It put everything into perspective. I missed what was said earlier tonight. I just woke up from my nap. Was a bit shaken up. Can someone pour me a nice cold beer????
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Marty ...behave yourself!
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