Combining Assets

[Octavia]

Legally once married everything is common property. If you divorce it will all be split 50-50. Why maintain the fantasy that you are financiall independent when you are not? I have never understood this mentality. Not trying to judge, just warning you that my perspective is "All for one and one for all". Debts, assets, the whole enchilada. It helps that when we married we did not have indeividual debts or assets I suppose. If you did, then perhaps it is more complex.

This may be true where you live, but it is not true everywhere. Since Alli is an attorney and does matrimonial work, I'm sure she is more than aware of what is "his," "hers," and "theirs." For instance, where I live, any property my husband and I owned before we got married is separate property and would not be considered in the event our assets had to be divided. Also, there is a presumption here against 50-50 division of marital assets, since the judge must consider many, many factors in determining equitable (not equal) division.

I actually think that being a lawyer (or in my case, almost-lawyer) makes it harder to combine assets because you're acutely aware of the laws rather than the assumptions. I KNOW that legally, even though we are married, what my husband earns is his alone, and what is in his separate bank accounts is his alone, just like I know that my student loans (which I took out before we were married) belong only to me, and my car is mine alone. We can share, and we can commingle our assets if we want, but we don't actually have title to each other's stuff. It's very hard to know what the cold, hard laws are while still wanting to believe in the warm-fuzzy mindset of "what's mine is his, what's his is mine, it's all just ours." Not all states have the same laws, so it's not this way everywhere, but my state seems to be particularly individualistic. Most people don't know and don't care, but once you have it drilled into you, it's hard to forget.

Anyway, Alli, sorry for the threadjack...I don't know how it works in your state and if you have this same dilemma.

 

[Dancing Fire]

alli
wish i can give you some good advise,but wife and i both agreed to never talk about money.

 

[Echidna]

Ali, I just want to give you a huge hug. I can't give you much wisdom, as we use Dreamer's system of net income, but I want to say that I am so, so sorry that the bad news about losing your job was compounded by your husband's anger about the lost income. You are in such a tough position if he doesn't want to work with someone to resolve his issues around this. I'm really sorry you're upset by the comments on the thread, but I'm so pleased you had the guts to ask a these questions. It's so tough and we're all here for you.

Big, big ((((((((((hugs)))))))))) for you and lots of PS dust that the right solution emerges at the right time.

 

[luvshinyrocks]

To me it sounds like the fundamental problem is a lack of willingness on the part of your husband to compromise.

Given that he "100% refuses to go to therapy" and is angry at you for losing your job, it seems like he could use a dose of perspective. I'm in the same field as you and I know how brutal it is out there right now. He should be on your side! I know that some people have reservations about therapy, but surely you guys can find a counselor that you're both comfortable with - there are tons of them out there. It might be helpful to have a professional gently suggest to him that he's not being fair to you. I would see if you can get him to agree to go to someone that HE gets to pick - and if he's not happy he can pick someone else. Chances are that any therapist you see is going to tell him that he's being unreasonable and needs to look at your relationship as a partnership. Maybe he'll get mad at the first several therapists you see b/c they are not telling him what he wants to hear, but once 3, 4, or 5 of them say the same thing maybe he'll understand that he is the problem here.

By the way, I understand that managing your finances can be a pain and extremely complicated - especially when you have a lot of accounts. Have you tried a program like mint.com? It tracks all of your accounts and you can categorize your budgets. It's really helpful and it's free (no, I don't work for them ).

 

[Dreamer_D]

Legally once married everything is common property. If you divorce it will all be split 50-50. Why maintain the fantasy that you are financiall independent when you are not? I have never understood this mentality. Not trying to judge, just warning you that my perspective is "All for one and one for all". Debts, assets, the whole enchilada. It helps that when we married we did not have indeividual debts or assets I suppose. If you did, then perhaps it is more complex.

This may be true where you live, but it is not true everywhere. Since Alli is an attorney and does matrimonial work, I'm sure she is more than aware of what is "his," "hers," and "theirs." For instance, where I live, any property my husband and I owned before we got married is separate property and would not be considered in the event our assets had to be divided. Also, there is a presumption here against 50-50 division of marital assets, since the judge must consider many, many factors in determining equitable (not equal) division.

I actually think that being a lawyer (or in my case, almost-lawyer) makes it harder to combine assets because you're acutely aware of the laws rather than the assumptions. I KNOW that legally, even though we are married, what my husband earns is his alone, and what is in his separate bank accounts is his alone, just like I know that my student loans (which I took out before we were married) belong only to me, and my car is mine alone. We can share, and we can commingle our assets if we want, but we don't actually have title to each other's stuff. It's very hard to know what the cold, hard laws are while still wanting to believe in the warm-fuzzy mindset of "what's mine is his, what's his is mine, it's all just ours." Not all states have the same laws, so it's not this way everywhere, but my state seems to be particularly individualistic. Most people don't know and don't care, but once you have it drilled into you, it's hard to forget.

Anyway, Alli, sorry for the threadjack...I don't know how it works in your state and if you have this same dilemma.

OK, points taken. I live in Canada and this is how the separations I have seen so far have worked. But ignore the legal part of it. In my eyes it is communal property. And I can honestly say that if we divoce, not matter how we hadle our finances now, it will be a horrible horrible thing and no type of financial finagling now will make me feel any better about it.

 

[Octavia]

Dreamer, I completely agree about the emotional aspect of it. Of course it would be horrible, I wasn't saying that's not true, and no matter how the finances are kept, it wouldn't make things very much easier. I was just giving some perspective on why some people, including me, have trouble coming around to the communal view. As much as I'd like to think the way you do, I can't just "maintain a fantasy" that everything is chucked into one pot and that's that.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I think that there are some deep and fundamental issues that you two need to tackle to move forward in your marriage. This is not about money, that is the surface. Underneath is some more basic issues that are causing you a lot of distress and are worth addressing!

I think this boils down to having a communal or an exchage norm in your relationship. These different types of norms determine the rules for giving and receiving benefits (be they money or others things, like affection) within a relationship.

Some relationships are ruled by an exchange norm. This means that benefits are given because they are owed for a past benefit received. This means that when it comes to money, it will only be given from one spouse to another because it is owed, or because that spouse has already contributed something. Same goes for affection, or respect, or any other commodity that has value in a relationship. You keep a careful tally of who gave what and who owes what when you have an exchange norm.

Other relationships are rules by a communal norm. This means that benefits are given on a needs basis. When it comes to money, this means that when you perceive that your partner needs something, you give it to them if you have it to give. Same for love or support or respect -- all given when a need is perceived. Although people keep track of the balance of their "emotional bank account" in this type of relationship, the assumption in a communal relationship is that things will balance out in the end -- I fulfil your needs now and you will fulfill mine later.

The interesting thing is that if one partner wants to have a communal norm dictate their giving and receiving of benefits, and the other applies an exchange norm, this is really upsetting. This is because exchange norms are more common in aquiantance relationships. In intimate relationships where couples rely on one another for so many things and depend on one another, communal norms are much more common. To apply an exchange norm when one's partner prefers a communal norm is a slap in the face to one's partner, imlpying that you do not feel as close and connected to them as they perhaps thought.

Communal norms are most common in marriages. But even then there are some areas that are rules by exchange norms and others ruled by communal norms. In our house, for example, house work and other things of that annoying nature are definitely ruled by exchange norms. But we agree on this so it is ok with us both.

It sounds like your husband is applying an echange norm to money and you are applying a communal norm. To him, his views of money make perfect sense because he is thinking about it in terms of exchange of benefits -- tit-for-tat. To you, who wants to apply a communal norm, it is a slap in the face that he wants to penny pinch and hold you accountable in this way. It implies he does not love you as deeply as you would like, and perhaps suggests to you he is not committed to your relationship. That is why it *hurts* that he feels this way. It is not about the money. It is about what the money *means* for you and him and his love for you.

I suspect that in fact his feelings about money have nothing at all to do with his love for you. He simply holds an exchange view of money, and it may be hard for him to shift that especially if he is not aware that he has that view, and is not aware that you hold another view.

I also relate to his feeling having grown up poor. I grew up very poor and DH grew up spoiled In our relationship, I am by far the more miserly about money. I manage our finances. I make all the money decisions. I consult him, sure, but in the end I make the ruling He agrees to it because he sucks with money, so we each benefit, but I make the decisions. It satisfies my need for control about finances and also allows us to be communal in our monetary norms.

I wonder if your husband would feel more comfortable combining finances if he was somehow in charge of the budgeting and deciding what was fair and equitable? I suspect that he might not want to combine finances because he fears losing control of that area of his life. Can you offer a compromise that will let him keep control but also simplify your finances and allow you to stop feeling like a second-class citizen, financially, within your relationshp?

No matter what you need to nip this in the bud. As you probably know, financial strains are among the top predictors of relationship breakdown. You two need to make it a priority to get on the same page. If you can find out what his underlying feelings are about noney -- why it is so important to him, what he fears will happen if you merge accounts, what solutions would make him happy -- then you will have an easier time solving this and moving forward.

ETA People also differ in their comfort depending on others and being in a communal relationship at all. Dome people really want to maintain their independence within a marriage, and if this desire is at odds with their loved one's desire to become more interdependent and communal, that too can cause a lot of strife. If you think that this may be a more general issue and not only limited to money, I would be happy to tell you a little more about this stuff.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Dreamer, I completely agree about the emotional aspect of it. Of course it would be horrible, I wasn't saying that's not true, and no matter how the finances are kept, it wouldn't make things very much easier. I was just giving some perspective on why some people, including me, have trouble coming around to the communal view. As much as I'd like to think the way you do, I can't just "maintain a fantasy" that everything is chucked into one pot and that's that.

If you can trudge through my long post, above, some of the issues I outline may apply to your situation as well... I am a professor of social psychology, so I didn't just make it all up And I know you did not mean a divorce would not hurt . I was just sugesting that if the motive to maintain separate accounts is partly based on a desire to avoid potential pain or problems in the event of a divorce, that *may* be a futile aim that at best makes life complicated in terms of money management and at worse can undermine the connection between two people if they do not agree about keeping things separate.

 

[Octavia]

Dreamer, I completely agree about the emotional aspect of it. Of course it would be horrible, I wasn't saying that's not true, and no matter how the finances are kept, it wouldn't make things very much easier. I was just giving some perspective on why some people, including me, have trouble coming around to the communal view. As much as I'd like to think the way you do, I can't just "maintain a fantasy" that everything is chucked into one pot and that's that.

If you can trudge through my long post, above, some of the issues I outline may apply to your situation as well... I am a professor of social psychology, so I didn't just make it all up And I know you did not mean a divorce would not hurt . I was just sugesting that if the motive to maintain separate accounts is partly based on a desire to avoid potential pain or problems in the event of a divorce, that *may* be a futile aim that at best makes life complicated in terms of money management and at worse can undermine the connection between two people if they do not agree about keeping things separate.

Dreamer, your post is VERY interesting. I'm curious about whether there is anything in-between? And is the mindset generally ingrained for the long term or can it shift as the relationship grows and changes? I ask because, as I said in one of my earlier posts, I do foresee my DH and I becoming more interdependent as our marriage progresses, but it's a slow change. But right now, it feels like the only reason for completely combining everything would be that it's what we're told we "should" do when we get married, like buying a house, having kids, etc. But we're not at that stage yet and neither of us does very well with being told what we should and should not do. Anyway, I'm definitely interested in hearing more, whether in this thread if Alli is up for it, or elsewhere if not!

 

[alli_esq]

oh dear, thank you all for being so wonderful and sharing so much with me. ::deep breath:: here we go.

thing2: mint.com is an interesting resource--I just recently signed up and tried to see if it would work for me, but it isn't really set up the way I like to do things, and I find it a bit more confusing than my budgeting system. There is a way to do this--I know there is--and you are right, this really has a lot more to do with my husband's emotional issues than anything else. I don't know if it's financially hurting both of us, but it's definitely making me feel insecure about our relationship as time goes on, and I hate that. Thank you for sharing what you and your husband do.

Octavia: thank you for your support. I am SO happy in my new job--I hope it lasts! I agree with you on the gradual change concept. I hope that will help.

Haven: You are so sweet. The cash idea is a good one--my concern is that I use a credit card for most purchases, both to boost my (and DH's--I added him as a joint cardmember when we got married) credit and to get the extra points associated with just our normal purchases. But I do think there's something to the whole idea of cash--I am going to give that some serious thought.

DH does know this is all upsetting to me. That's why we're setting up a day next week to have a money-date. I hope that we are both able to express ourselves and be honest about how we feel about this situation. I know he loves me, and I know he really does think I am extremely responsible about money--perhaps even more than he is--but he feels panicked, I think, when he considers giving up any of the money that he earns to benefit anyone but himself at this moment. (That sounds worse than I feel that it is--it's not that he's not a generally generous person, but he is so scared of giving up sole control over what he has earned, since he knows what it is to be left with nothing.)

Your idea about goals is EXACTLY what I had in mind. I like to write things down for lots of reasons, and I actually just bought David Bach's oldish book on budgeting for couples (can't think of the title right now, and I don't feel like digging the book out of my purse in the other room right now, hehe)--and I began writing down my goals last weekend. I brought it up to DH, and he seemed very open to doing that together, so I hope that will be part of our money-date this week. I know that we have the same ultimate goals about what we want together, and our priorities on spending and saving are the same--we are only having trouble with combining things right now. But I think you are precisely right about getting our act together by organizing our ideas together--I hope it will be refreshing and helpful to both of us. Thank you for being so supportive and taking the time to write all that out for me.

kama: thank you so much. I didn't take your reply as harsh at all--like I've said, I am hoping that during this next conversation we plan to have next week, he will begin to understand my underlying feelings about our financial situation, and maybe if he knows that I understand how HE feels about it, it might help. And of course, when we're getting along, he cares very much about how I feel, but when we're fighting, he has an awful tendency to fight dirty (I'm no angel myself), and I am afraid that even if he gets on board with combining things when we're in a good mood, that he will eventually hold it against me later.

Zoe: I understand, and to be honest, that was simply an oversight on my part. Of COURSE both DH and I believe in supporting one another emotionally, good times and bad. I was only talking in financial terms (not to say that feelings about finances don't have something to do with underlying feelings about other things--they definitely do--but that's not what I meant here). And when the person who does not have the significant debt is the one who volunteers helping to pay for it, that's one thing--but in my situation, where I am the person who has the higher debt and lower income, it is more complicated to say "hey, um, can you help me out here?" and I am afraid of that idea being (and in the past, it has been) rejected by him, and him judging me for even asking...money-grubbing and all that. We will see how this conversation comes out next week, and what the financial planner says soon.

NEL: thank you SO MUCH for understanding. It makes me feel better to know that transitioning is difficult for more people than just DH and me. I do think that DH does have fear that I'll screw him over--not because of how I am or how our relationship is, but because (1) I'm a matrimonial lawyer, and I think it's scary for him to know that his partner knows so much about matrimonial law --even though I've really taught him a lot about the law in our state (just because that's my job--not like a threat or anything!), and (2) again, he is SO afraid of being left with nothing because his family sort of abandoned him and left him with nothing when he needed their help. Of course, I won't do that--but his fear is founded in his experience with people, and as much as I have tried to teach him over time that I am responsible and trustworthy with money, and that I am SO not anything like his parents (OMG I AM SO NOT HIS PARENTS, hahaha) AND that I am not out for his money (we often joke--he doesn't even have that much!--albeit more than I do!), it hasn't seemed to sink in in any meaningful way on this topic.

dreamer: thank you so much for your incredibly thoughtful response. First of all, I think I am going to prepare for my "money date" with DH for next week with all of everyone's options here, and maybe we can talk about each possibility and about how we feel about their applicability to our situation. Secondly, about our "exchange"--you are SPOT ON. Although we do spend a lot of time together, we also have a tremendous amount of independence as well, and do things on our own a lot, so I think that makes it confusing also, especially because I've always been so hell-bent on keeping such careful track of every dime spent between us to make sure it was FAIR...you know?

The strange thing is that he would much prefer *I* be the one to take care of everything financial because he hates dealing with paying bills and he fully admits I'm a million times more organized and responsible than he is in general. And even stranger, we're BOTH super miserly (the only difference is that I'm a lot more generous when it comes to gift-giving specifically, both with him and with relatives and friends...and if a friend needs to borrow a few bucks, I always do that sort of thing, and he would pretty much never do that).

Thank you again--really interesting, insightful stuff

blackpaw: I know I overreacted--I'm sorry. I am obviously rather overly sensitive about this, but thank you very much for writing back. (and you're totally right about me knowing a lot of great lawyers )

Ltlfirecracker: it's great that you've worked this out. Thank you very much for sharing your method!

luckynumber: thanks for the e-hug--I will take hugs however I can! I hope you are able to start making your money work for you!

Octavia: not a thread-jack at all. Great of you to share the law in your state. Really, the law in our state means nothing to me in this situation--being a matrimonial attorney, and seeing how people go CRAZY during a divorce, I have 0 interest in fighting about finances should I (again, god forbid!) get divorced. This is only a bookkeeping thing, but it's complicated and emotional for me at this early stage in my marriage. I wouldn't go after his money if we were to get divorced, even though I would be entitled to do so.

DF: haha

echidna: thanks so much for your support. I was out of work or only partially employed for almost a year, and DH was incredibly emotionally supportive for 99.5% of that time...but of course, the times that stick with me were the times we were fighting and his negative and angry feelings about my losing my job. So maybe I'm giving a skewed view here (well, of course I am--DH isn't here to defend himself!)

luvshinyrocks: see my comment to echidna...but yeah, it would be nice for someone to knock DH upside the head and tell him it's normal and NOT money grubbing of me to want to combine our assets and liabilities...I just know DH and I know that therapy is just not on the table right now. I'd like to try the heart-to-heart and the session/s with the financial planner and we'll see how far we get before I start pushing something I already know he is totally averse to doing. I do hear you though.

 

[yssie]

Alli - no advice, but a BIG ::HUG!!!:: It sounds like a really emotionally draining situation, I hope you and your DH can figure something out that's less stressful for you


Dreamer - that's really interesting, I like Octavia would love to hear more!

 

[alli_esq]

Anyway, I'm definitely interested in hearing more, whether in this thread if Alli is up for it, or elsewhere if not!

[/quote]

Totally up for it!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Okay Dokey!

Here is a mini version of a lecture I give on the topic in my third year close relationships class.

Referencing Slide 1

As romantic couples spend more time together, they start to gradually make the transition from being in a primarily exchange relationship to being in a communal relationship. Communal relationships are really identified by something called "interdependence", which is a cogntive state characterized by some key psychological and relational features (outlined on slide). In essence, what happens is people stop thinking of themselves as "me" first and forwmost and start thinking of themselves as "we" first and foremost. Their identity changes to consist not only of their personal traits and characteristics, but changes to consist of characteristics of their relationship and characteristics of their relationship partner, too.

Referencing Slide 2

Becoming interdependent is a double -edged sword though. On the one hand, as we become close to a romantic partner and become more interdependent, we feel a lot of love and closeness and this satisfies our fundamental "need to belong", a need that is a basic to human functioning and wellbeing as is the need for air or even water!

On the other side of this sword, though, is the fact that becoming inrterdepent with someone leaves us open to hurt and the pain of rejection. When we depend on someone the way we do in interdependent relationships, they have immense power to hurt us and let us down. And being that close to someone means that all our flaws are on display, and because of this they might reject us.

Interdependence, though, is a good thing in relationships and really promotes relationship stability over time. So although it is scary and risky, it is a necessary component of high quality relationshps.

(to be continued)

 

[iheartscience]

alli-mint.com definitely took some getting used to for me. Luckily I wasn't budgeting at all prior to using it, so I had no system to compare it to! But putting all of our accounts, investments, property, etc. together into mint.com has really helped me see our money as ours. It's helped my husband see that as well, but because I'm always checking it and updating it, I think it's had more of an effect on me.

I think our situations are a little bit similar in that my parents are more comfortable financially than my husband's parents are, too. So growing up I never heard about any money problems and never once felt like I didn't have a financial support system/mom and dad bail out backing me up. Because of that, my husband and I have totally different ideas about how much $ we need to keep readily available in checking vs. savings/investment, etc.

So not too long ago I asked him how much money he needed to have available in his checking account and savings account to feel good about the money situation. It was way higher than my number, but hey-if it makes him happy, so be it. So one thing that could work for you all is that your husband keeps X amount minimum in his own savings account and then contributes the rest to your joint savings and/or checking. That way he still feels like he has *his* money as a safety net. Baby steps, right?

Oh-and when I said I think it's hurting both of you financially, I meant that because you're unable to save for retirement via a 401k, you'll both have access to less $ when the time comes to retire. (I'm assuming that by then you'll have a lot more combined assets!) I'm sure right now it's just hurting you because he has plenty of money.

Anyway, I think the bottom line is that something on his end just has to give. The situation is unfair to you and he's being pretty selfish, regardless of his underlying issues. Plus I don't have much patience with underlying issues past the early 20s. Everyone has had hard times-move on!

I hope none of this is offensive-as you said, we're just hearing about the bad stuff in this thread-I'm sure your husband isn't a monster!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Referencing Slide 3

Becoming interdependent with one's partner also means that very often, situations can arise where one is faced with a dilemma -- what happens when doing what I think is best for me is not the best thing for my partner and our relationship? This interdependence dilemma comes up a lot, and it makes people really uncomfortable. To successfully resolve this conflict, what people do is that start to adapt their motives so that the wellbeing of the relationship is ultimately the most important thing for them. This transformation of motivation means that even if your own personal well-being is somewhat hurt by a decision, the well-being of your partner and your relationship is improved and THAT is so rewarding to you that you do not care!

An example of this is when I was offered a job accross the country. This was not in my husband's personal best interest, but it was in the best interests of our relationship, and that was import to him. He also felt good and took pride in my success, and so he was rewarded in that way for moving.

This is just one example of the type of cognitive trickery that we engage in to maintain high quality relationships. We are active contruers of our realities, and our biases and construals can have a positive or a negative effect on our relationships.

Referencing Slide 4

The process of interdependence can be conceptualized by the overlapping circles, below. As one becomes more interdependent, the cognitive representation of self and other start to overlap more and more as one's identity starts to shift to include the other in the self. As you can see, people can vary a lot in how much overlap they perceive in their relationship. You can perceive none at all, and you can perceive so much that the self and the other are virtually indistinguishable!

This process of including the other in the self is good for relationships... within reason. I suspect that if the overlap is complete it is unhealthy, as one still needs to maintain an individual identity within a relationship.

And members of a couple can differ in how much interdependence they desire, and in how much they perceive to exists. A common conflict in couples is when one partner desires more closeness than the other is willing or able to give.

As I mentioned originally, for some people, interdependence is very risky, very scary. The possibility or rejection is too weighty and so it may feel better to maintain a greater level of independence for a longer period of time in the relationship (think Miranda from Sex and the City). Eventually, despite the discomfort or fear, it is better to become more interdependent. But it needent happen over night. And many couples will take a long time to gradually become more interdependent. A key to whether or not the pace of interdependence is ok or not is whether the members of the couple are on the same page. It can be very painful when one partner wants more interdependence than the other wants.

At its core, I think the issues of the interdependence dilemma are what Allie and her husband are dealing with right now. Money has a lot of meaning to Allie's husband, and becoming interdependent in that domain is particularly anxiety provoking for him. I think if Allie accepts this and acknowledges is and they move slowly, and he starts to see the benefits of allowing himself to depend on Allie, then it will be a really good thing for their relationshp!

The danger of mis-match on this issue is when the spouse who wants greater closeness feels rejected and pushes their partner too hard. This will cause the hesitant partner to back off even more -- he or she has after all just been burned by becoming too close! (think Carrie and her ongoing issues with Mr. Big) So being confident in your bond with your partner and in your own worth is essential to successfully navigating these situations, which come up in every single relationship in some form or another.

 

[Blackpaw]

Oh no please dont apologize, Alli, my post was sh*#e....

glad you're having the money date, i hope it goes well, you can only be open and honest with each other. Im sure it will work out

 

[luckynumber]

Dreamer thanks for that enlightening info!

Alli thank you for acknowledging all the responders so graciously!

 

[diva rose]

Dreamer ~ Thank you! That information was really helpful.

My DH and I are very much in an interdepent relationship.
Recently I was a bit concerned how much we have 'merged' together (we've been married for 1 year - dated for 3 yrs).
We share everything - finances etc. He makes more money than I do but there is not 'yours/mine' with us.
It's good to know we're on the right path.

Alli ~ I wish you all the best and hope things will get better with your DH.
Just a question, if your DH doesn't spend money on you, what is he saving money for?

 

[rhbgirl24]

I'm not sure what to say here in advice.

DH and I combined assests, checking, savings, stocks, everything when we moved in together. It was easier and we took care of each other. Briefly after I graduated college, I was umemployed. He paid my students loans and helped me out with other expenses. He wouldn't have even remotely considered NOT doing that because it was my debt.

Now that we are married, our debt, is our debt. All our money goes into joint accounts and all our bills, student loans included come out of that joint account. I really couldn't see doing it any other way to be honest.

I wish you the best of luck working this out though!

 

[Clairitek]

I started to post yeterday, decided I wanted to spend more time replying, and then didn't post. Now I come back and it seems like you've got tons of great advice.

I wanted to share that before DH and I got married he made approximately 3x what I did. When we bought our house (prior to engagement) he put down 2/3 of the money at closing and I put down 1/3. We split house expenes accordingly and put money into a joint account for joint expenses (all joint entertainment, house costs, pet costs, groceries, etc) in the same ratio.

We first got married we didn't have totally equal discretionary funds (sort of like you and DH). We figured out our savings goals and decided to each put in a set amount (scaled to our incomes) into our joint account and our savings account. DH started adding more to his retirement savings through work to account for my lack of a retirment fund as a student and then rest we each got to keep. His discretionary fund was 4x mine. I knew he wouldn't spend it all but I felt weird about the fact that he had tons more play money than I did. Then one day at a Phillies game his father talked some sense into him. He came back from the game and after that we combined finances. At first I was hurt like you and didn't get where this "mine and yours" attitude came from (especially after we had agreed to totally combine everything after marriage) but I just swallowed my pride about it and sat tight. We only lived like this for 3 months before combinining everything. Once we got married we just combined everything. We do have our own discretionary accounts. We get an indentical amount each month to spend however we choose. I spend mine on clothes and jewelry and I like to be able to spend somewhat frivolously within limits and without his judgement.

I hope your money date proves fruitful and you two are able to work something out thats fair and comfortable for either of you. I hope you'll come back and share your solution as I doubt you are the only one in this predicament. Money is a tricky and uncomfortable thing. DH and I both come from families that wholly combine everything so I suppose it was easy to get there once DH's father had a father-son talk with him about the whole thing.

 

[Haven]

alli--I hope your money date goes very well. That sounds like a great idea, and I like that you're calling it a "money date" because that has a positive ring to it.

I hear you on using the cards to earn rewards and such. My husband and I had a big disagreement about that very topic because he really wanted to use cards for everything and just pay them off each month, and I didn't. In the end we ended up going with a cash or debit card only method because it was just easier for us to keep track of what we were spending. I kept telling my husband that extra points don't matter if he's blowing our budget by earning them. Now we're two years down the line from making that decision and I can say that for us, it really helped us save a lot of money and keep track of spending.

I'm a goal setter, too. Sometimes I feel like it's a magical process, because for whatever reason once I write them down they really start becoming a reality. It's very cool.

Dreamer--That was very interesting information. Thank you for sharing all of that. I'd like to share it with my sister, she is in a decidedly exchange relationship after nine years together, and it has been the source of some issues.

 

[Haven]

Haven, I salute your budgeting skills. We have never been short of money and that's probably why we are crap at managing our finances. We are going to be that couple who earned a lot, but never had any assets to show for it coz we just partied it all away. Gak! I must do something about this.....Thanks for the reality check guys!

That is exactly why I'm so vigilant about budgeting everything--I watched my mom work very hard for years and years and years and end up with nothing to show for it. I don't want that to happen to us.

It was pretty uncomfortable for DH to start working with budgets because he lived for so long never having to budget and always being just fine. But just fine isn't really good enough, and he knows that. We're really lucky that we're able to save and invest and travel and live in a home we love, I know that, and I just want to protect that lifestyle for the two of us if possible.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I'm glad some of you found it interesting!

Yssie Well, I think you are normal to feel like you do. I would in your shoes. In fact I told DH early on that my career was a non negotiable, I needed to have this job and that meant he needed to be willing to move anywhere with me. Our compromise was that I told him I would give it the old college try to stay in Canada, which mattered to him and to me to. That compromise meant it took me 3 years to get a job, and it was very stressful, but that was the particular sacrifice I made for our relationship, and making that sacrifice for him meant he felt a little better about making the sacrifice for me and moving. So I guess my point is that interdependence does not mean selfless sacrifice all the time. It just means being more willing to compromise, and it also means that if you do have to make a small sacrifice, over time you are likely to justify it in your mind so it does not make you as annoyed as it used to Plus, some things may still be ruled by exchange norms within an interdependent relationship, and that is ok too. Maybe job opportunities are one of them for you two. Also, we do keep tabs on exchange within communal relationships, it just goes on at a very implicit level. Gross violations of equality can bring those tallys into the conscious mind. So if something feels *very* unequal, then perhaps it will cause the individual to start becoming a little more obvious in their accounting of benefits for a period of time to make sure that though they lost out on that thing, the balance is still in their favour.

c-tek That is cool your FIL talked to your hubby! I think this money thing is really an issue of our generation in some ways... though on the other hand other issues probably arose back in the day -- like a working husband who gave his wife an allowance or something.

 

[phoenixgirl]

Alli, I'm sorry too. Hugs! Figuring out finances is one of the toughest things about being married.

It seems to me that your goals are saving for a downpayment for a house, paying down your student loans, and saving for retirement. It sounds to me like what is most important is for you to feel that even if your DH is doing all the saving and you're doing all the debt-repayment, that you're both using your collective money to do it, and that these are collective goals. I'm not sure your current arrangement has to change for you to accomplish this.

Are your student loans accumulating a lot of interest? DH had student loans which had a 9% interest rate, and I started doubling the minimum payment, but the way it was set up, it seemed like it only went to interest and the principal was not changing. So it was a goal for me to get that darn thing paid off. It didn't make sense to me to have $20k in savings but $20k in debt with that high of an interest rate. We paid it off with the money we inherited after my dad died. I just wanted to freedom of knowing we were debt (except for mortgage and cars) free.

I hope that once you're on the same page, you can figure out an arrangement that produces the least amount of stress for both of you. It's definitely not easy; there's a reason why finances are the #1 stressor in a marriage, right?

We went the separate account route first; it just didn't work for us. I think our downfall was that we didn't have the right amount budgeted for our joint expenses, and so each month I (as the one making more and the one keeping track of the bills) would "donate" from my individual spending/saving money to our bills, while DH just flitted along spending 100% of "his" money each month. It just got to be too annoying. I didn't mind paying more since I was earning more and had less debt (I paid off his credit cards when we got engaged because I didn't want that affecting *our* credit negatively), but I did mind the idea that I was the only one having to give up "my" money for the overages. But we have friends who seem happy with their "his" and "hers" accounts. When they eat out, one of them "treats" the other to a date. I'd find that annoying myself, but it works for them.

Now I'm a SAHM, so his/hers/ours wouldn't work anymore anyway!

Personally, I wish we had a better system for saving and tracking spending. Neither of us is great at that. DH's work is commission based, so it's hard to say that we'll always put x amount in and spend y amount. Some months there's 3x to put in, and other months there's 1/2 x. But I guess we could figure out a minimum expense threshold and then save the rest.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Alli, I think I might understand how you BOTH feel. I'm so sorry you're going through this. I know money is a very touchy subject for many couples, and I'm sure it hasn't been easy for you and your DH to talk about this. You want everything related to your finances to be fair, but you don't want him to think you're some kind of gold-digger (for lack of a better term). It's very awkward to talk about money anytime, but especially when your DH makes substantially more than you do and you have to initiate the conversation. Not fun at all.

When DH and I first moved in together, he was very eager to combine our finances immediately, and I was the one dragging my heels. He and I made approximately the same amount of money at the time, so it wasn't like one of us would have been contributing substantially more or substantially less than the other . . . but I was nervous about combining our finances out of an over-abundance of caution. I was just coming off a nasty divorce, and I guess I might have been a little gun-shy because my XH and I had combined our finances and money was DEFINITELY a problem in that relationship. XH and I had an agreement whereby both of our paychecks went into our joint checking account each week, I paid whatever bills needed to be paid that week, and then we each got an equal amount of cash to use as spending money for the week. XH and I were making about the same amount of money, so this should have worked very well for us. However, he frequently pulled money out of our joint account without telling me (he had a drug problem), which completely screwed our system up. So, I was worried about combining finances with DH, not because I didn't trust him, but because money had been SUCH an issue in my previous relationship and I didn't want it to be an issue with DH. But, he insisted that we at least try it, and I agreed. I'M SO GLAD I DID!!!

DH and I basically use the same system as XH and I had been trying to use. We only have two accounts: a joint checking and a joint savings. Both of our paychecks go into the joint checking account each week, and I pay whatever bills need to be paid that week, put a little into our joint savings account, and withdraw the rest in cash. That cash gets split 50/50 between us and that's our spending money for the week. This system works very well for us, because DH is sooooo much more responsible than XH was. I never have to wonder if our mortgage payment is going to bounce because he pulled money out behind my back. It's very peaceful!

Like I said, when DH and I moved in together, our salaries were just about even. However, DH got a promotion a little over a year ago, and he now makes about 25% more than I do. But we still use the same system, in exactly the same way. We don't have "his money" and "my money." It's all "our money." To me, part of getting married is sharing everything with the other person, including money. I was raised in a household where my mother and her husband kept separate finances, and she had to account for every penny she spent. He even made her justify spending her OWN money! Needless to say, she was completely miserable and she divorced him (thank God). So, after seeing my Mom go through that, I decided early on that I wanted my marriage to have more of a "team" feeling when it came to finances. The only reason I was reluctant to do that with DH is because it didn't work out so well with XH. (But, that wasn't a flaw in our system . . . that was a flaw in my judgment in trusting a drug addict! LOL!) Now that I'm using the same system with someone who is dependable and trustworthy, it works perfectly.

Also, I would recommend that you and your DH read the book "Total Money Makeover" by Dave Ramsey. I read it after seeing some of the ladies here on PS mention it, and I was very impressed! I feel like our financial goals are much more clear and much more attainable now. Even if you already know where you want to be financially, Dave Ramsey will help you get there. And, like any other financial guru, you don't have to take every word he says as gospel . . . you can use his plan as a guideline and tweak it a little to make it fit your needs.

Sorry this turned into such a novel! I hope some of it was helpful to you, and please feel free to ask me any questions that you might have! Good luck!

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Dreamer_D, your interdependence slides really hit home. I was recently reading a pretty famous book where this is discussed (I think it might be the 7 habits of highly effective people). Anyway, the author was saying that there is growth from dependence to independence and even more growth from independence to interdependence. He was saying that interdependence is the realization that two independent people who work together can create something greater than the sum of their parts. He was also saying that the biggest hurdle between independence and interdependence is that a lot of people view it as a step back (towards dependence) as opposed to a step forward. When I read that chapter it was like being hit with an anvil. After I got married, I started making the transition from independence to interdependence and it was very hard for me because I had been in that "independent" state for so long and didn't want to take a step back.

Anyway, I only bring this up because D and I talked about interdependence vs. independence quite a bit and it really helped us to see how working together as a closer team would make us stronger as a whole.

 

[steph72276]

I haven't had time to read all the replies so forgive me if I repeat others. For me personally, I couldn't have it any other way than combining assets, even before I became a SAHM and had a salary. I like the feeling of what's mine is his and what's his is mine...not I have my money, you have your money. How would you cope for example if one of you lost your job? At that point you would HAVE to combine assets in order to survive.

Since money issues are one of the main reasons people get divorced, we make it a point to be very open and communicate regularly about money. We sit down together every months and make up our monthly budget where we spend every dollar on paper before the month begins. If something unexpected comes up, we sit down together and make adjustments. We pay everything through our debit card and use a money program on the computer to record every transaction and put it in charts to see where our money goes every month. If either of us spends more than $200, we run it by each other first. I personally feel very good being on the same page and having the same goals as my husband, and would feel odd if we had to have a system where we "owed" each other money or didn't know where each other's money was going every month.

 

[yssie]

Dreamer - Your mini-lecture is definitely very interesting! I had the mods remove my post last night because it seemed out of place in alli's personal thread, but I'm really glad you saw it and commented - thanks.
It's really not black and white, no matter how much we sometimes try to make it so... In any case, it's good to hear that someone who knows what she's talking about doesn't think it strange or selfish, that's for sure!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Since money issues are one of the main reasons people get divorced, we make it a point to be very open and communicate regularly about money. We sit down together every months and make up our monthly budget where we spend every dollar on paper before the month begins. If something unexpected comes up, we sit down together and make adjustments. We pay everything through our debit card and use a money program on the computer to record every transaction and put it in charts to see where our money goes every month. If either of us spends more than $200, we run it by each other first. I personally feel very good being on the same page and having the same goals as my husband, and would feel odd if we had to have a system where we "owed" each other money or didn't know where each other's money was going every month.

that's reason why wife and i never talk about money.if we did we would of been divorced a long time ago. i'll hear her say...why did you waste money on this and that everyday.

 

[steph72276]

Since money issues are one of the main reasons people get divorced, we make it a point to be very open and communicate regularly about money. We sit down together every months and make up our monthly budget where we spend every dollar on paper before the month begins. If something unexpected comes up, we sit down together and make adjustments. We pay everything through our debit card and use a money program on the computer to record every transaction and put it in charts to see where our money goes every month. If either of us spends more than $200, we run it by each other first. I personally feel very good being on the same page and having the same goals as my husband, and would feel odd if we had to have a system where we "owed" each other money or didn't know where each other's money was going every month.

that's reason why wife and i never talk about money.if we did we would of been divorced a long time ago. i'll hear her say...why did you waste money on this and that everyday.

So when you say never, you mean she could've run up $30k in credit card debt or she could have a secret pile of cash somewhere and you wouldn't know anything about it?