Combining Assets

[rosetta]

Urgh. I could not tolerate this situation. Like thing2 I would be long gone. You have my sympathies and best wishes.

I think your husband needs to treat you better: it is obvious this issue is causing you a lot of heartache and he needs to recognise that and act on it. His past issues are no excuse for his present behaviour. If he is intelligent, then he must realise his rigid stance is affecting his relationship.

Good luck alli, you have really been very cool-minded through this and handled it with more patience and grace than I could have managed.

Have some famous PS *******dust********

 

[TooPatient]

I hope your talk goes well on Thursday. I want to pass on some thoughts from FI (it is a long post -- if you are in a hurry, at least read the questions FI thought you really need to think about now):

I talked to FI about your situation and he had some interesting insight. (FI's parents were awful and for awhile he had to work 3 jobs to put himself through school and many months he could barely afford to eat, often only eating thanks to the generosity of a grandmotherly neighbor)

He was involved with a woman who was very "careful" with her money. Everything was "his" and "hers" and she made sure to tuck a bunch into "her savings". She was there to insist that he help with bills and "joint" expenses (even when he was on disability) but the minute his checks stopped coming, he was told that it was "his problem" if he couldn't afford clothes, food, and other basic necessities (all while she kept tucking away into "her" savings)

FI says that you need to be EXTREMELY careful. He clarified this as "RUN", divorce him now before you have children or a house.


Points he said you need to think about:

What happens if you get sick/hurt/laid-off and are out of work for 2 or 3 years (or more)? Will you "owe" him when you go back to work? Will he help you through or let you struggle?

What happens if/when you have kids?
Will he take care of the bills when you are on maternity leave? Will you have to split every expense for the kid 50-50? Will he see the kid as a threat to his "financial stability"? Does he think the 2 of you should pay for the kids college? Room & board? He didn't have any help so neither will his kid?

What happens if/when you make more than he does?
Is that "your" money or does he think that should be split?

What happens when it is time to buy a house since he has more savings than you? Do you buy something smaller and pay 50-50 on down-payment and mortgage? Will he pay more and have a larger "share" in the house? Will he pay more and then you "owe" him for the balance of "your 50%"?




It was interesting hearing what FI had to say on this topic and my post here is just a very brief attempt at an outline of his concerns. (we talked for almost an hour so I really can't type it all).

(As a side note -- FI (who does not care for jewelry or see any point to it) said that $300 - $600 for a setting for your stone (especially as your b-day gift) is NOT too much if he is able to afford it without going into debt.)

 

[Lilac]

Obviously none of us know all the details of your marriage (we only know what you have shared with us), so none of us can fully understand the entire situation. However, from what you have shared, I think you are completely entitled to feel hurt and upset by your husband's attitude, and I don't think I would or could tolerate it.

My husband's parents stopped supporting him when he was 17. He had to pay for everything on his own, and his parents actually TOOK $8,000 from him that he had received as gifts from friends and family. They took it and never returned it, and then had him pay for not only his own food, schooling, and clothing, but he was actually paying for some things for his parents and siblings as well. There were plenty of times he was struggling to pay bills, and his parents said if he REALLY needed help they would help him - eventually at one point he went to them asking for help because he just couldn't afford everything anymore, and what did they do? Basically they said sorry, deal with it on your own, we're not helping you. I would understand that if they truly couldn't afford it or if he was older, but they went on several vacations every year, bought tons of presents for his sisters all the time, and he was only 17 years old at the time. He finally realized at that point that they never planned on giving him his $8,000 back and he couldn't rely on them for anything related to money (or really much else).

Yet none of that affected how he treats me. Even when we were dating he was paying for most of our dates and occasionally I would pay for some also, but we never kept track because we knew we were getting married so we saw it mostly as "our" money. Once we got married we combined all our accounts and everything has been joint since. Truthfully, I've been in school since we got married and I still have another 2 and a half years of school ahead of me, so I won't be contributing financially for around 3 more years. DH has been fully and solely supporting us since we got married and will continue to do so until I am able to work 3 years from now. I do the cooking, cleaning, and food shopping so that's my contribution to our household until I'm able to work. I don't think DH has ever even thought twice about "supporting" me because he feels we are partners and therefore all the money is our money. Any bills or debt would be *our* bills and debt. Obviously this wouldn't work for everyone, but it works for us.

I think the story about your husband and his parents must have been sad and upsetting for him, but it definitely doesn't excuse the way he has treated you regarding this money issue. I'm sorry you have to deal with this, it sounds like a tough situation. Reading this thread has been very interesting because it's great to see all the different ways couples have approached their finances (and it's great to see all the various ways people make it work for them). I hope you and your husband can figure it out so you are both satisfied with the end result.

 

[jaysonsmom]

Hi Alli,
I have been following this thread, but didn't feel that I could give advice from the financial aspect because my husband has always been our designated money manager. But as the thread is growing, I'm beginning to really feel bad for you, and really wanted to chime in about this situation from the emotional aspect. Marriage is a partnership, and there shouldn't be such distinct lines drawn between what's "mine" and what's "yours".

Have you every watched the Joy Luck Club? If not, you need to sit down with your husband and watch it together. In one scene Lena's husband is splitting up their grocery bill 50-50, but he makes 3X her amount, in fact he's her boss....he also decides that she should pay for the cat food since the cat was hers. She was so hurt, she blurted out "but you gave me the cat!". Then they show their marriage trudging on, she was totally resentful of splitting everything 50-50. Apparently what is "fair" in his mind was totally cold, calculated and cruel in her mind. Her parting words to him were "I'm not paying for your ice-cream, I'm lactose intolerant!"

When I read through this thread, these characters in this movie immediately popped into my head, and their marriage was the "one that failed" because there was "fairness" but no love, honor, respect and commitment to take care of each other. These are more important in a marriage than fairness.

For most of our marriage my husband has always made about 2X my salary, but I have also received 10X the amount in gifts because he knows that I give my all to be a career woman, a good wife, and mother. I think in his mind, I have put my heart and sole into our family, so he can never give me enough in return........anyway, I'm rambling, but I just want you to hear about people like me who have exactly the opposite relationship with money, and please DO NOT think you're any less deserving of nice gifts (like your setting) because you make less money!!!!

 

[swimmer]

Oh Allie, Hugs. Money is just such a difficult issue.

Dreamer should really charge money her insight is so valuable.

I have to ditto some of TP's fiance's questions. Esp: What will happen if you get a job that is better than his? What if you got sick or had a difficult pregnancy and had to be cared for? Perhaps you are that one in a million relationships where all chores are split equally, but it sounds like you are shouldering all of the financial mgt. responsibilities and that is a ton of stress and time. What would he pay a financial planner? YOUR time is money, that is ignored in his system. Do you clean an even amount? Do you both cook? Equally do grocery runs? If you do more he is then responsible for the difference according to his draconian system. Will he split the cost of your pre-natal care or is that all on you? What about day care? When will the baby have to start earning a living? If he wants to be totally "fair" well, I want him to see how hurtful and insane his plan is. Dreamer's points are of course more effective and long term productive.... I'm just so hurt for you and outraged at him!

Your DH sounds just like the old tale from when I was a kid where a child is afraid his favorite thing will leave/reject him, so locks it in the closet. Then he forgets to show it love, so when he opens the door to express his lobe, the favorite thing runs away and he cries 'I knew I would be rejected! Does he care more about protecting his assets or his relationship?

 

[zhuzhu]

Hi Alli,

I am so sorry you are feeling hurt and confused about how your DH is dealing with financial aspects of your marriage. I think financial management is a very personal decision for each family and the two of you have to work it out on your own. The MORE IMPORTANT question I would encourage you to ask yourself is this:

Is your relationship with your husband providing fulfillment for your emotional, social and psychological well-being?

If not, I think you should have a frank discussion with DH to figure out why that is. A lot of time money issue is really just a symptom of a bigger problem in a relationship. It will take some work to figure out the source of the true problem. But once you work hard TOGETHER at it, it will get better.

Big hug to you and I wish everything only gets better from here!

Zhuzhu

 

[Hest88]

Have you every watched the Joy Luck Club?

I was wondering when someone would bring this up. Yes, it was the first thing I thought of too, but I tried really hard not to mention it.

 

[panda08]

I'm glad that you've come up with a game plan on how you're going to approach your money date and I truly hope it goes well. I don't mean to be pessimistic but have you thought about what you'll do if it doesn't go how you'd like? What if he doesn't see things your way, no matter how flexible you're willing to be? You can talk openly with him about your feelings about what a partnership means to you and negotiate reasonably. But if he's coming from a place that cannot be reasoned with, your efforts will be a sisyphean task. So the question is, can you accept him as is? Can you live your life 50-50, 24-7? He may change but you don't know that. You thought he might change after you guys got married but his position has remained the same. No one should live their life hoping that their partner will one day morph into the partner they wanted but didn't marry.

 

[Allison D.]

No one should live their life hoping that their partner will one day morph into the partner they wanted but didn't marry.

AMEN.

 

[alli_esq]

I don't have time right now to respond to everyone (thank you again for all of your advice!), but I just wanted to say that even if DH is not open to doing what I suggest (I have several options available to him, all of which I think are very fair and allow him to continue saving separately to some--much smaller--extent), I will be very sad, but I will not consider leaving him for this. I entered into this marriage with my eyes open, and my vows to him were not contingent on our agreeing on finances (though that would, of course, make things considerably easier).

I take my marriage very seriously, and although I will admittedly be very disappointed if he does not want to start saving jointly as a team for our joint goals, I will learn to accept that (at least until I have less debt and make more than he does).

There is a lot of good in our relationship, he is my best friend, and I still consider him a partner in life, even if he is too [fill in the blank] to consider me a financial partner.

We pushed the meeting to Saturday--we decided that we didn't want to approach this after a long day of work, and that we wanted to set aside as much time as necessary to talk out whatever we need to discuss.

I'll come back tomorrow or Friday when I have more time to respond to each of you individually. Thank you all again.

 

[zoebartlett]

Alli, I might be speaking for myself here, but I don't think anyone means to judge the relationship you have with your husband. Someone else said earlier, I think, that we're giving advice based on what info you give us. Of course we don't know the ins and outs of your relationship, and we're not in your situation. It's hard for us to see that while you have a great way of looking at things (we're in this together, we're a team, financially and otherwise, etc.), your husband's actions are essentially shutting you out. Your quality of life is very different from your husband's, and you need to decide (which you have) whether you're okay with things continuing on as they are. That's if he's not receptive to the things you're proposing. If he is, GREAT!

I'm rambling, but it's just hard to see someone get hurt and have the other person involved not do much about it. Honestly though, I don't mean to sound preachy or anything at all. Maybe just give a little food for thought, that's all.

 

[lilyfoot]

Alli, I might be speaking for myself here, but I don't think anyone means to judge the relationship you have with your husband. Someone else said earlier, I think, that we're giving advice based on what info you give us. Of course we don't know the ins and outs of your relationship, and we're not in your situation. It's hard for us to see that while you have a great way of looking at things (we're in this together, we're a team, financially and otherwise, etc.), your husband's actions are essentially shutting you out. Your quality of life is very different from your husband's, and you need to decide (which you have) whether you're okay with things continuing on as they are. That's if he's not receptive to the things you're proposing. If he is, GREAT!

I'm rambling, but it's just hard to see someone get hurt and have the other person involved not do much about it. Honestly though, I don't mean to sound preachy or anything at all. Maybe just give a little food for thought, that's all.

I agree with the above.

I take my marriage very seriously as well, and I don't see myself leaving my husband if we had this type of issue. I do think that this issue is a HUGE area of concern in your relationship, and I also think that it's quite probable that these issues run deeper in your DH than just plain money-related. I have never gone to counseling, but I feel like it could potentially benefit your relationship with your DH. He obviously has some issues that he hasn't worked out, and they're affecting your relationship, which is not ok in my book. I think a (qualified) third party could really help your DH as an individual, and you and your DH as a married couple.

I don't have a problem with married couples that choose to have seperate finances, even though we have joined ours from the start, but I do have a huge problem with a marriage in which one partner is not being treated fairly. From what you have posted, you have been extremely understanding, respectful, and patient with your husband, but you don't seem to be receving those things back from him. I also think it's quite possible that he doesn't even SEE what he's doing to you and your relationship, which is why I think a third party would be such a help.

I really hope that you come back on here this weekend and say that the talk with your DH went well and you're on the same page now. And if not, I hope that it's at least something your DH is open and willing to work towards.

ETA: I also think that the questions that TooPatient posted above are GREAT things to consider.

 

[Hest88]

Thanks for checking back in. I hope you understand we're not attacking your DH and we understand we don't know everything about your relationship. However...the reason this type of issue strikes such a chord--and why money issues are one of the top marital issues--is because it's not really about money. It's about security, and it's about the kind of future you can create for yourselves and your future offspring. Because of that, there's nothing wrong with the realization that this is not an issue either party should tolerate; it's got to be fixed or it jeopardizes the bond the two of you are creating.

I also agree with the other women that you need to make him understand that his issues are deeper than just about how money. That if your suggestions make him feel insecure about his future, his attitude makes you equally insecure. He loves you, obviously, and perhaps getting him to empathize with your feelings will make him more willing to compromise.

 

[alli_esq]

Hi again--just another drive-by posting quickly to respond to the last couple of posters...

I hope you don't think I'm being defensive by saying what I did in my last post. I was just trying to clarify my position with my husband--that it would disappoint me greatly if he did not choose to get on board by becoming my ''financial partner," but I would not consider leaving our marriage for that reason, as others of the posters have insinuated or suggested they might do (not that there's anything wrong with that opinion, of course--I just wanted to say that that's not how I feel or what I would do).

And yes, of course this runs much, much deeper than just money--that is why I feel so hurt that he has been hesitant to combine our finances. We will be going to a financial adviser in a couple of weeks, but my husband is very opposed to couple's counseling (we went to a couple's therapist several years ago, when we were dating, who turned out to be absolutely AWFUL and it caused us SERIOUS damage to our relationship, and to be honest, I don't blame DH after that experience to be opposed to counseling in general).

Let's see what happens this weekend. I am hopeful.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Alli, I don't think any of us are judging you for being defensive, we all would be. Just to clarify my position a little, the idea of the dissolution of the relationship came into the picture when HE hypothetically threw out the possibility. That means that while you might be planning to stick around no matter what and are 110% committed to him, he has and is thinking about the possibility of your marriage not lasting a lifetime. That's why he wants to protect himself, for the hypothetical "what if...." scenario. I think that's really unfair to you because you ARE committed to the marriage and working through these things with him. I just hope that he realizes that relationships are made up of two parts and both parts need to contribute their share in everything-emotions, honesty, trust, affection, cooperation, compassion, finances, etc. for the marriage to be successful over the long term.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Alli, I just wanted to wish you lots of luck tonight! Most of all, I hope you guys are able to have a laid-back, comfortable conversation about how you can be the best partners possible. I want for him to know that you're approaching this from a place of love--wanting a lifelong partnership with somebody who is supportive and willing to put the relationship first. This isn't about you wanting anything from him--I'm afraid this is how he sees it right now, so I hope he's able to see past that and know that you want your marriage to be as strong as possible, emotionally and financially. I think the more that sinks in for him, the more open and trusting he will start to be

And I also understand both sides when it comes to whether or not this is a "dealbreaker". On one hand, you married him knowing his feelings about finances and probably didn't expect him to do a 180 after getting married. If anything, you're probably wishing you'd had more of these money dates to discuss how to combine finances after tying the knot BEFORE you got married. On the other hand, being married does bring a closer partnership and if he continues to be stubborn about keeping his money separate, it might start to make you resentful and wear at the relationship. I just hope that over time, with these money dates, he starts to feel more comfortable and willing to do what is best for the marriage! Keep us updated!

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Alli, just bumping to see how the date went last night?

 

[decodelighted]

FYI ...

We pushed the meeting to Saturday--we decided that we didn't want to approach this after a long day of work, and that we wanted to set aside as much time as necessary to talk out whatever we need to discuss. I'll come back tomorrow or Friday when I have more time to respond to each of you individually. Thank you all again.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Thanks, Deco! I don't know how I missed that. Alli, good luck tomorrow!!

 

[rosetta]

Hard conversation ahead but it must be done.

Good luck from me too!

 

[zoebartlett]

Alli -- I hope the talk you and your husband had over the weekend was a productive one.

 

[Haven]

I just want to echo Zoe's sentiments. Let us know how you're doing, Alli, we're thinking about you!

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Just bumping again to see how the date went!

 

[princesss]

Thinking about you, alli!

 

[alli_esq]

you are all so wonderful to catch up with me! I am so sorry--I've been crazy busy and I'm still pretty busy at work, so I have to make this fast, though I think I will have time after work today to write more...

I really took all of your advice to heart--I explained what I had read in David Bach's book, about making goals for our future together, and that I understood his concerns, and that I wanted to compromise with him...

it was a great, successful conversation in general--he was very open to hearing what I had to say, and because I had so many options for a budget for us that allowed for great flexibility, he felt good that he was choosing the one with which he felt the most comfortable...

we have a plan now for how much we are trying to save jointly and separately, and he keeps saying how invigorated he feels about it...he is going to be saving more in his 401(k) for both of us (which we both agree--as does the law--that I am entitled to share), and we are both contributing to bills and joint savings based on our income. I would like the percentages going into our retirement funds and savings to go up as we go (our monthly budget has been slashed as well, so that we can start actively saving way more than we currently are), and that is the goal, but I think this is a very good place to start.

it's not a perfect plan--he is still going to be saving a lot more than I am separately, but considering so much more of my income goes to my loans, and he is saving more in our joint account based on his income...but we will see how it goes. We have an action plan to change over all of our accounts starting September 1st (it's easier for bookkeeping reasons to give us another pay period before we start), but all in all, I am very satisfied with how things went.

thank you all again so much for your support and your advice. things feel way more manageable and fair to me now

 

[lizzyann]

Great news Alli! *sigh of relief for you*

 

[NewEnglandLady]

This is great news, Alli! And not because of the plan itself (though the plan sounds great!), but because he was open, trusting and willing to work with you. I feel like this is the beginning of a stronger team and I'm thrilled for you!

 

[mrscushion]

This is great news! Ditto NEL, it sounds like this may be the beginning of you as a stronger team not only in the financial realm. Congrats on taking on this topic head-on!

 

[Haven]

Excellent news, Alli! I'm so happy to hear that he was open and willing to listen to your plan. YAY!!!!

 

[Scorpioanne]

DH and I have been married for almost 6 years and living together for 8. What we do is that he is responsible for his debts and bills and particular to him and I am responsible for any debts that are mine (I have none) and my bills that are mine. We have figured out what the monthly expenses are and have divided up the bills to equal half and half so I pay my bills and he pays his. The house was mine befroe we got together and I pay the mortgage and taxes and save for home renovations. He is totally ok with the house being in my name only. We don't have a joint account. This way works for us, I was on my own for so long prior to meeting DH and I am not sure I would like us to mix it all up and have a joint account, I am too set in my ways and a control freak.