Chip discovered AFTER purchase

[Hannahsb21]

Hello Jewelry Community~

I wanted it out there that I bought a ceritified 1.34 princess F color, internally flawless diamond from Tony the owner of Antoine''s Jewelers at the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show and when I took it to my jeweler it turned out to be chipped. You can only see the chip under a 60 X microscope and the stone was sold to me a brand new. I took it to two jeweler''s who both verified that this happened either when setting or pulling the stone, that a chip of this sort could not happen at any other time, basically I didn''t do it.

I took the stone to Nancy Stacy who everyone loves and she verified the same thing and wrote a lovely report on the problem. So it either has to be recut or polished out, losing an easy 20pts and taking away from the fire and the value of the stone. Tony refuses to return the stone, and this all happened within 6 days, and blames the problem on me. He claimed the stone was brand new and it is impossible that this could happen to a new stone.

I know the people who are on this page know their stuff, but this is a heads up. I was pretty well educated on the stuff to begin with, but unfortunately I hadn''t found this web page.

 

[Sunni79]

I''m sorry that happened to you! Is the chip fatal to the diamond? Would you consider getting it recut/polished? When my husband was buying me my first engagement ring, he went to a jeweler a picked out a 3/4 ct. G vs2 stone. When he went to pick up the ring after it was set, he saw that the diamond had been switched. He said the color was clearly tinted yellow. Although this is rare, he can happen. Luckily my husband was able to get a refund. It''s hard to find honest and reputable jewelers and when you dom you stick with them. That jeweler thought that because we were young, we wouldn''t have know the difference anyway. Let us know what you do.

 

[AndyRosse]

Do you have insurance on the ring? That would take care of your problem.

To be honest, that is exactly what happened to me. My fiance picked out a stone and a setting and picked the finished product up a couple days later. Well, he didn''t have it appraised right after (which you should always do) and within a day of me wearing the ring, I noticed it was chipped under a prong. Thankfully, the jeweler replaced the stone, but not before saying multiple times it probably wasn''t his fault. And that''s the truth. Even in one day, I could have chipped the dimaond if I hit it the right way. And if my fiance had had it appraised immediately after picking up the ring before I wore it, we would have had concrete proof as to whether or not it was my fault.

So all I''m saying is that you can''t be too harsh on this jeweler in my opinion. It is quite possible the stone was chipped during your six days with it. And in the future, get everything appraised and checked and of course, have insurance effective from the moment the ring/stone is in your hands!!

Good luck.

P.S. Chipping can occur even in an IF diamond, especially if a prong is hit just right or the cleavage plain is hit just right.

 

[DiamondExpert]

I''m not totally clear on what you are saying...

Since diamonds are graded at 10x, not 60x, how can it be said that the stone is chipped if it cannot be seen at 10x?

Also, if the "chip" can only be seen at 60x, and assuming it is at one of the corners, you could probably have it polished out without ANY loss in weight.

 

[denverappraiser]

There are several things at play here.

Take a deep breath, let’s make sure we understand the facts. Some lab saw the stone and graded it IF. The lab didn’t indicate any damage at that time. Nancy saw the stone mounted and she reports that it was damaged when she saw it. Everyone involved says it’s not their fault. Correct so far?

Now I have a few questions to fill in so that the experts here have a little more to work with.
Who graded the stone IF? Why IF and not F?
Who set it and who hired that setter? Have you spoken to the setter and have they denied responsibility?
What are the setters terms regarding breakage?
Did you get a professional appraisal or examination between the time when the jeweler sold it to you and prior to having the stone set? If so, by whom and did Nancy get the opportunity to examine their report?
Did your estimated minimum 20pts of weight on recut loss come from Nancy or some other source?
You use the term ‘pulling the stone’. Has the stone been removed from the mounting? Who pulled it, when and why? Did Nancy get the opportunity to examine the mounting both before and after the stone was removed from the mounting?
Nancy put her opinion of the source of the damage in writing. Did the seller provide written documentation reporting that the stone was undamaged at the time of sale?
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[Todd07]

For clarity, are you saying the below?

You bought a lose (unmounted) diamond
You had it examined by three jewelers who all confirm the chip
While you had the stone, you kept it lose and did not attempt to have it mounted by a jeweler.
The only people to work with the stone were Jewelrs who examined it

It sounds like it would be impossible for you to get it chipped under these conditions and the stone is second hand

Tony may or may not have knowingly sold you a used diamond. As asked in a previous post, who issued the cert and what is the date?

If the above ir correct, I''d present my facts to Tony in a certified letter asking for a refund. I''d imply he unknowling sold you a used stone

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 3/1/2005 9:23:26 PM
Author: Todd07
For clarity, are you saying the below?

You bought a lose (unmounted) diamond
You had it examined by three jewelers who all confirm the chip
While you had the stone, you kept it lose and did not attempt to have it mounted by a jeweler.
The only people to work with the stone were Jewelrs who examined it

It sounds like it would be impossible for you to get it chipped under these conditions and the stone is second hand

Tony may or may not have knowingly sold you a used diamond. As asked in a previous post, who issued the cert and what is the date?

If the above ir correct, I''d present my facts to Tony in a certified letter asking for a refund. I''d imply he unknowling sold you a used stone

Boy is that an importantly different version of the facts than what I presented. Hence the need for clarity eh?

 

[elmo]

The details are ever so important here so please bear with us while we make sure we have all the facts straight

. I''m sorry to hear about your situation...tell us more!

 

[Richard Sherwood]

You''re not going to lose 20 points on polishing out a chip only visible under 60x. As Gary points out, the weight loss will probably be practically 0, or a point or two at most.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

You might reconsider your heading of "dishonest jeweler" as well. It's a bit strong. If Tony's the excitable type, he could easily slap you with a lawsuit for libeling him on a forum with an international audience.

Fair to good chance he'd win.

 

[diamondlil]

Hi Hannah and welcome!

If you are the same person I think you are, I''m the one who referred you to Pricescope. We met at the Chantilly gem show a few weeks back, right?

I''m so sorry to hear what has happened since I met you. That day you were beaming about your engagement and your new princess stone. I hope you can hang out at PS for a while and get the help you need to resolve your situation.

Please bear with the experts here. I think you will learn a lot and get some great information.

DiamondLil

 

[AGBF]

Hi, Hannah-

When I first read your posting it seemed clear to me that a jeweler had misrepresented a stone as never having been set and that it had been set AND DAMAGED. I also accepted the weight loss you mentioned since I had no idea how much weight loss the repolishing would cause. What Neil wrote did make me take a deep breath, though, and maybe you will find it reassuring, too.

No one buys an F or an IF stone and expects a chip. If one chooses such a high clarity grade it is for a reason! I would have been very shocked and upset, too, had I thought I was buying something "flawless" and found it was flawed.

It *is* good to know that it can be rendered flawless with polishing that will not cause you to lose a lot of weight. I also think it is a good idea to look at the who certified the stone. If the certificate is from a reputable lab and is new, the lab-not the jeweler-decided that the chip was not meaningful, did not warrant mention. In that case the jeweler cannot be held to blame.

I *DO* think it would be good PR for him to leave you satisfied, however! Good luck.

Deb

 

[Hannahsb21]

Welll Hello!

I am so glad to see so much interest.

Be sure that I have taken precious time and considerable money to have this looked at and would not bash any old jeweler at a whim.

The stone was sold to me as brand new, never been set. I looked at it under a loop and it appeared perfect to my beginner eye. Many people at the gem show said he was great, I can trust him, yada, yada. Felt it was a good deal, I thought it was the most beautiful stone I had seen, we bought the stone.

The stone was certified, however, it is EGL. I know now that was a mistake, but again Tony assured me that it was what it was and that EGL was as ligit as GIA, at the time I didn''t know about AGS. Here is my big mistake, but Tony guaranteed that the stone was as the cert said.

My boyfriend took the stone to a master jeweler in Napa to be set. He talked to him about what we wanted and the Jeweler said let me see the stone and in front of Dan put it under a microscope and immediately saw the "chip" and said he couldn''t touch it any more because he didn''t want to be held reliable.

He said the kind of corner chip, teeny tiny, yet very deep, could only be caused during setting or removing, that it was impossible that we had caused it while it was in it''s paper and cert.

Dan called Tony right away and he said we had done it and we were out of luck. He said he was willing to polish it but we had a very bad feeling about him in our stomach at this point.

Before we got too hasty we took the stone to another jeweler who verified exactly what the original said and she recommended we contact Nancy. I spent some time with Nancy on the phone and Dan felt he wanted her to see the stone. After three hours of talking and making a report, she came to the same conclusion. The reason I say it would loose 20 pts is because it is so deep, deep enought that Nancy went as far at to suggest it would now be considered a VS1 and no longer internally flawless. In addition, the stone isn''t square at all under a microscope, the chip is on the shorter side and to make it a square virtually all sides must be recut. Basically all four sides are different.

Hmm, what other details. Well, I guess the point is that the stone turned out to be very far from what I thought I was paying $7,500 for and I was a very unhappy customer who did their research before coming so. I was assured that it was an awesome stone and that I was getting a great price. If that is the case, why wouldn''t he take it back if it is so easy to polish and resell it, it is a popular stone and size, it shouldn''t be hard. The point is I am unhappy and went to great lenghts to show Tony that I didn''t do this and he should stand behind his word.

I guess my biggest point is this. I have nothing to gain from this stone being returned. I loved the stone and at first sight and that is why we got it and paid him exactly what he asked, and we all know how hard it is to find the right stone. In addition everyone here knows that it can be an emotional thing and if you had heard Dan''s voice and tears maybe those who doubt me would understand, this feels terrible and isn''t something I would wish on anyone, hence my posting.

So, for now we are looking at options and have definately found the right people to work with. And I am the girl you are thinking of and I am so glad to have found you! Thanks for showing me pricescope, wish I had found it sooner.

Please let me know what details I have missed. I know my label is strong and that it sadly reflects on the jewelry industry as a whole, but this is part of the reality and I know this isn''t the first or last time something like this will happen. I have seen that situations like this simply force me to find the best and do further research and make those who do a great job truely stand out.

 

[Sashabella]

If you paid by credit card, I would dispute the charges. I would also ask a lawyer to write a letter ( a good lawyer) to Tony.

 

[oldminer]

A diamond with a surface blemish, possibly a miniscule chip, only visible above 10x magnification does not count, under the rules of diamond grading, as there at all. How clear is a perfect drop of clear water? At some power of magnification you will find inclusions in it, but under the standards of grading water it is considered "pure".

As you have been well advised here, the stone should not lose much of anything to have such a small nick completely removed. Wear the stone for a few years and I promise the stone won''t be absolutely IF at over 10X. Microscopic dings and nicks will occur in normal wear and the stone might still grade IF at 10X, but under a higher power, the wear will be evident.

As far as "New"{ goes when it comes to diamonds, just think of diamond rough sitting inside the earth for a million or more years. None of it is NEW in the sense we use with manufactured goods. All diamonds are very old and since they really don''t degrade materially in use and can totally be repolished, they don''t age as most consumer goods do. A used diamond and a new diamond are all old. I would prefer to have a great diamond at a super price and when it was cut makes no difference in its use. How well it is cut is the biggest issue, not when.

Jewelers tend to get defensive if they are accused of a misdeed. It is human nature although it seems to work against making consumers happy and making their problems go away. Being overly defensive actually seems to creat more problems than it cures. Jewelers don''t want to admit to screwing up or not doing a perfect job, but nearly every last jeweler I know is only human and makes mistakes. Allowing a jeweler to fix a problem will alleviate a lot of the confrontational issues consumers feel they have.

 

[valeria101]

'Guess they should have not put that diamond under such magnification - you would still be happy with it otherwise

The issue is not very clear: I simply cannot picture the flaw ! If it is not visible under 10X then it does not have any effect on the clarity grade. But two other details of the story make me think things are worse: (1) you say the chip causes downgrading to VS1 and that means the flaw is larger and definitely visible under 10X, and (2) you say a jeweler refused to set the stone because of this flaw - I guess he wouldn't have declined to work with that diamond for a non-issue.

That the symetry of the princess cut is not visually falutless under 60X no wonder - that degree of magnification is simply not fair play in this regard, IMO.

I am a bit of a slob and would not consider 60X as valid proof that the stone is "ugly" or "imperfect"; just one more opinion of course. If some detail of the cut prevents it from being set, that's one serious problem. Could it be that the respective jeweler found the stone too brittle to set ?

On top of it all, F/IF sound like awfully high grades to go with an EGL report.

However, the price sounds fine as far as I know.

Also - the "perfect" diamond is quite an illusory object, for what that matters.

 

[diamondlil]

Oh, Hannah, I''m sorry you have to start your engagement off this way. I agree with Sashabella, if you can''t get any resolution from Tony, I''d play hardball. Talk to a lawer and start off with a firm letter. Nancy Stacy can probably lead you in the right direction finding someone appropriate for this. Hopefully the matter will not go any further, and you''ll get your money back. Keep us posted.

DiamondLil

 

[oldminer]

The advice to get a lawyer is really the worst scenario possible. I think you need to get true clarification on the extent of the "chip" and what it will take to repair it from somebody expert in this arena. A chip visible at 60X is not a VS1 stone unless it is a visible nick at 10X as well.

Going for the jugular, getting an attorney, getting forceful, will probably create more problems than you have now. take the slow and easy approach. Be certain of the exact nature and extent of the actual problem. So certain that you can express it very clearly to anyone including the seller. If you sound angry or panic stricken, it will work against your best long term interests.

 

[strmrdr]

I dont get the responses in this thread.
No one here could possibly tell what if anything is wrong with the diamond but the experts and the crankyone are quick to come to the jewelers defense.

My advise is talk to Nancy and see what she recommends as the next step.
She has seen the stone no one here has a clue what is wrong with it.
If her written report clearly states that there was a problem with the diamond at the time of sale that he didnt disclose then you should have a good legal case should it come to it.
She may have a better idea on how to deal with it however than getting a lawyer involved.

 

[Christy42]

What a scary story! I agree that you catch more ants with honey. If it was me I would try to be diplomatic about this. I''d go to another appraiser quickly, get some more insight, see if you get 2 different opinions basically. Then I would approach the jeweler with, "This chip must have gone unnoticed since it''s an IF. So, I''d like to see if you can find me another more acceptable stone." Blah, blah, blah......If he feels angry or threatened by you right off the bat, or if you seem accusatory, he will get defensive and be less acommodating.

THen! If that doesn''t work, I''d get the big guns.......I sure hope he isn''t looking on PS right now......

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 3/3/2005 3:24:26 PM
Author: strmrdr
I dont get the responses in this thread.
No one here could possibly tell what if anything is wrong with the diamond but the experts and the crankyone are quick to come to the jewelers defense.

My advise is talk to Nancy and see what she recommends as the next step.
She has seen the stone no one here has a clue what is wrong with it.
If her written report clearly states that there was a problem with the diamond at the time of sale that he didnt disclose then you should have a good legal case should it come to it.
She may have a better idea on how to deal with it however than getting a lawyer involved.

I''m with Storm. Talk to Nancy.

She''s the one with the most information and she is, by a lot, the one who is best able to sort through it. She can''t make a conclusion about how or when a stone may have become chipped but she can certainly discuss it''s present condition. She also presumably has had the opportunity to examine the original lab report to see if this may have been present during their original inspection. If she didn''t, show it to her and ask.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[diamondlil]

Date: 3/1/2005 4:25:26 PM
Author:Hannahsb21
Hello Jewelry Community~

Tony refuses to return the stone, and this all happened within 6 days, and blames the problem on me. He claimed the stone was brand new and it is impossible that this could happen to a new stone.

I''m sorry, Dave, I don''t understand "take the slow and easy approach." Hannah only had the stone a few days when the chip was discovered. She obviously purchased a diamond expecting to get it set in a ring and have it on her hand by now -- 2 weeks have passed since the chip was discovered. I find it very hard to believe that carrying it in the diamond paper to the jeweler caused the chip. At the very least, a reputable vendor would agree to store credit toward another stone.

Hannah, did you pay with credit card?

DiamondLil

 

[Sashabella]

I personally don't find the lawyer argument too strong IF ou exhausted all your alternatives. HOwever, if you don't want to pull out the "big guns" you should at least talk to a lawyer to find out what rights you have and what is the best approach to take IF he continues to refuse to give you back your money. Very often, people are unaware of the statutory protection provided to consumers and, as a result, are unable to exercise thier rights effectively. It doesn't mean you have to have the lawyer do the talking but it's helpful to know exactly what your rights are in these types of a situation.


I realize I am biased because I am in the legal field but, if you line up all your ducks, get all your documents (i.e. receipts and outside appraisals) and he is still going to be a jerk I don't know what option you have aside from a) keeping the stone or b) threatening to call the better business bureau.

IF what he is doing isn't in accordance with the law, what is the harm in letting him know this in a nice fashion. On more than one occassion, I have had to say to a retailer "I understand your position but I am afraid *statute X* provides that a consumer has the right to XYZ. I certainly am trying to resolve this nicely but, in order to do so, you must negotiate fairly and in accordance of the law. Can we co-operate here?" You aren't threatening the guy. You are telling him you are aware of your rights and you are aware he's being sneaky or is uninformed.

I am also a little confused about how it's now a VS1 etc... but I realize I do not have the documents and it's probably all more complex and detailed than can be accomodated on the message board.

If I was considering buying over the internet, this story would certainly give me less confidence in doing so. This sad situation is why people should pay for diamonds on CC and why I personallythink it's best to buy a diamond from the same jurisdiction where you reside. Can you imagine how much trouble you would be having if you weren't in the same city as the guy>!>!

You may also want to change your title to "potentially dishonest jeweller." I think that more accurately reflects the situation at hand.

I would also do as much as possible to document your discussions with Tony. Ask him for a letter stating is position or communicate via email.

You are right. If there is nothing wrong with the stone, he should be GLAD to exchange it for you (and I would make him send the stone to a GIA appraiser before exchanging it).

I am sorry you are starting out your engagement this way.

 

[Iceman]

If it was only noticed at 60 power and that small were does she get you will lose .20 on a recut ? Sounds like one of the corners. You pick a princess cut diamond up with tweezers and that can be a problem.

Again, I cant see that well so can you hold it up to the screen closer then I can make this call Just joken.

I wouldnt wasit your money on a lawyer. Nobody knows what had happen from here to there. Its all hear say and hard to prove.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 3/3/2005 4:11:25 PM
Author: diamondlil
Hannah only had the stone a few days when the chip was discovered.

I'm not sure how this is relevant strictly because there is no minimum time it takes to damage a diamond.

I could walk into my local jeweler and purchase a loose stone. If I walk out of his building at 2

0 p.m., I *could* trip over the curb and drop the loose diamond on the pavement within the first 15 seconds of having it in my possession!

Another example: when renting a car, it's up to me to make sure any nicks/scratches/damage on the car are noted before I leave the rental shed. Once I drive off the property and out of sight of the rental agency, any damage that wasn't previously noticed is my responsibility, whether or not I actually caused it.

A lot can happen in a few days. As you point out, she likely wanted to wear it as soon as possible. I could be so anxious to wear my diamond that I drive straight from purchase to a local jeweler and ask him to set it while I wait. What happens if HE mistakenly chips it and then says to me "I don't have the right head to set it in, so I can't do it now." I'd be none the wiser that he tried and damaged it. Now I decide "well, since I can't get it set now, I might as well get it appraised while I wait for the right setting to come in."

Once you leave the place of sale for the diamond, the above scenario *could* happen within a half-hour, nevermind a few days.

My point isn't to imply that Hannah damaged the diamond....not at all. I don't think she did. My point is that once you take possession of goods from someone else, there's no absolutely way to conclusively prove that the damage existed before you took the goods.

It's entirely possible, by the way, that the seller wasn't aware of the nick himself. (I'm not saying this is *probable*....I'm saying it's possible.) Who did he buy the stone from? When he bought it from someone else, was it represented to him as "new"? When he purchased it from his supplier, did he view it only under 10x mag?

This unfortunate incident carries a valuable lesson.....actually, two.

1) It's really wise to make a diamond purchase contingent upon satisfactory appraisal prior to purchase if at all possible. Then there's no question about the condition of the diamond.

2) If that's not possible, arrange to have the vendor deliver the stone directly to the appraiser after purchase. Then there is no question the stone wasn't handled by you in any way intermediately.

3) If you can't get an independent appraisal pre-purchase, then it's critical to work with a vendor who has a solid return policy *and* a rock-solid reputation for customer service.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 3/3/2005 4:17:49 PM
Author: Sashabella

I realize I am biased because I am in the legal field but, if you line up all your ducks, get all your proof...........

If you''re in the legal field, then I really can''t see where the above comment comes from....

With all due respect.......get all *what* proof?????? There IS *no* proof. There is no way to prove when the damage occurred - prior to her possession or subsequent to it. I''m not saying she damaged it....I''m saying there is no way to prove *when* the damage occurred.

Once she leaves the point of sale and the sight of the seller, there is NO way to prove when the damage occurred.

 

[Sashabella]

She doesn't have to prove it happened definitively. She only needs to show that, on the balance of probabilities (i.e. 50.1%+ chance- the civil standard of proof) that she got the stone in that condition. She claims to have a bunch of expert opinion (i.e. which has the potentail to be used evidence) that she claims strongly suggests this chip exists when she got the stone.

I can't assess her evidence or her claim and I am NOT offering her legal advice. I am not saying she is right or wrong. I am saying to get all your documentation (receipts, certificates, appraisals) and move forward by finding out your rights and then negotiate or seeing a lawyer. By all means, talk to each of the appraisers you trust and ask them how they suggest you proceed. They may have some good suggestions.


Try to negotiate and if he's still inflexible and you are still unsatisfied, make a decision if you can live with the stone or not. When you are negotiating and he says, "well it could have happened XYZ", you say that you have had it examined by three appraisers and NOT ONE agrees with his hypothesis.

I revise my earlier statement about "get your proof" and change it to get all your "evidence."

 

[fire&ice]

My head is spinning & I''m completely confused. Usually my reading comprehension skills are better - but a chip that one can see only under 60x power. It sounds tee tiny. Is the stone in jeopary of cleaving more because of this? Is the appraiser *that* concerned about it or was it matter of course. I probably have chips on my stones.

That said, since no one knows when this may have happened (You could indeed be the person who chipped it), can''t you come to some sort of resolution? Like Tony met you half way and refund some of the difference b/t an IF & VS1 stone?

Maybe I''ve read incorrectly. But, if the flaw can''t be seen until under 60x, what''s the huge issue? I must be missing something.

 

[codex57]

Wait, aren't all the inclusions graded at a 10X level? So if you can only see the thing under a 10X level, why would it count against anything? Maybe the seller only inspected teh thing under a 10x loupe or 30X microscope and thus didn't see the chip. Maybe he bought it at that show from another vendor and thus didn't have access to a 60X microscope when he bought it and was scammed himself.

 

[Hannahsb21]

Hi Everyone,

Glad to see that there are so many opinions and so much advice. Unfortunately I am out the door and don''t have time to respond, but will asap. But let me say, I did not attempt to set the stone, the chip/sliver that runs along the side to a corner and dives deeply into the stone, could not have happened by me dropping it or with tweezers. Nancy confirmed this and I don''t know anyone who would question her authority.

It is actually very simple, the stone has a chip that though you can''t see with a loop, exists, therefore making the cert that was guarenteed to me fraud. It is great advice to have it appraised before a purchase and I would certainly do that today, but it doesn''t do us much good now. Regardless, Tony assured me on several occasions that it was a great stone, what i saw was what i was getting, and I don''t think anyone would argue with the fact that he is responsible for the quality of what he promises and his good business word, master jeweler status, ect.

Will get back to all on this tomorrow, but for anyone who doubts, we didn''t chip the stone.