Buying online using the numbers and the images

[Bretzky]

Hi all,

I''m new to this site, but have taken the time to read through the tutorial and a ton of posts. However, I have three questions.

1) Pricescope''s diamond cut quality search offers so much great info. If I was to thoroughly research my diamond purchase using all of the info, incl. Color, Carat, Clarity plus the HCA, Polish/Symmetry, AGS grade, Idealscope image, and magnified image, would I be pretty much guaranted to purchase a quality diamond? (that is, while an expert may split hairs in the end, would my purhcase be reasonably safe as a lay purchaser)


2) Will any of the big online vendors provide me with a DiamCalc file for a few select diamonds that I can then plug into the GemAdvisor software to help with my decision?


3) After buying a certified diamond online, is it essential to have it independtly appraised? Pricescope says yes, but read the following taken from the website of an independent appraisor:
"A written appraisal report is not appropriate [after buying online] because this scenario is kind of like an urgent "Just curious". I would call this an "I''m worried" request for assurance. The report that you received is inappropriately called a "Cert" or "Certificate". If the report is a GIA diamond report, it is a QUALITY report. GIA does not certify any diamond, it merely reports the quality considerations apparent in the cut, clarity, carat weight and color. It was included with your purchase to justify the price you paid for the diamond and helps the seller avoid liability. With large diamonds, a lab report is asked for by most insurance companies. Any gemologist can confirm or deny that the diamond matches the report and this should be done as quickly as possible so that you can return the diamond if you are not happy. A written report would have no purpose or function other than to get you calmed down. The Internet is a good place to start shopping but be aware that you can''t really see the diamond. The unique characteristics of diamonds cannot be conveyed with a picture on your screen and a group of parameters that may or may not mean anything to you."

Thanks for any help.

Brett

 

[denverappraiser]

Brett,

Welcome to Pricescope.

Date: 6/6/2005 10:10:22 PM
Author:Bretzky

1) Pricescope's diamond cut quality search offers so much great info. If I was to thoroughly research my diamond purchase using all of the info, incl. Color, Carat, Clarity plus the HCA, Polish/Symmetry, AGS grade, Idealscope image, and magnified image, would I be pretty much guaranted to purchase a quality diamond? (that is, while an expert may split hairs in the end, would my purhcase be reasonably safe as a lay purchaser)

There are some fine vendors that advertise here and who sell some extremely high quality merchandise. It will depend on what you view as the difference between 'splitting hairs' and 'important details'. Yes, it is possible to get a fabulous stone by ringing up one of the vendors, giving them your budget and seeing what you get. In practice, this works pretty well with many of them because they are no more anxious to get a return from you than you are to send it. Other customers want to take more control of the process and prefer to consider the details themselves. Not all customers want the same thing.

2) Will any of the big online vendors provide me with a DiamCalc file for a few select diamonds that I can then plug into the GemAdvisor software to help with my decision?

If they have the data, I'm sure they will be happy to provide it for your. For stones that they have posession of, you should have little trouble getting this kind of information from the big dealers. If they don't have the stone, and the owner doesn't have the equipment, they may have difficulty. People in the trade are getting more and more familliar with this request. Ask 'em. If they can't provide it, there are indepenent appraisers who can.

3) After buying a certified diamond online, is it essential to have it independtly appraised? Pricescope says yes, but read the following taken from the website of an independent appraisor:
'A written appraisal report is not appropriate [after buying online] because this scenario is kind of like an urgent 'Just curious'. I would call this an 'I'm worried' request for assurance. The report that you received is inappropriately called a 'Cert' or 'Certificate'. If the report is a GIA diamond report, it is a QUALITY report. GIA does not certify any diamond, it merely reports the quality considerations apparent in the cut, clarity, carat weight and color. It was included with your purchase to justify the price you paid for the diamond and helps the seller avoid liability. With large diamonds, a lab report is asked for by most insurance companies. Any gemologist can confirm or deny that the diamond matches the report and this should be done as quickly as possible so that you can return the diamond if you are not happy. A written report would have no purpose or function other than to get you calmed down. The Internet is a good place to start shopping but be aware that you can't really see the diamond. The unique characteristics of diamonds cannot be conveyed with a picture on your screen and a group of parameters that may or may not mean anything to you.'

Apparently this appraiser doesn't feel that they offer a very useful service for new shoppers. Maybe they don't. I agree that you should not finalize a deal without actually looking at a stone but I think my clients gain a fair amount of insight beyond what they would get from a simple certificate matching service. In general they are extremely happy with the additional information I supply and find it very useful for their shopping experience whether they buy on the street or buy online.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[pqcollectibles]

"but be aware that you can't really see the diamond. The unique characteristics of diamonds cannot be conveyed with a picture on your screen............"

That's a pretty fair statement.

Two diamonds can have the same HCA score yet have totally different types of performance. Diamonds are like people. Each has it's own unique personality.

Spend some time looking at diamonds in person. Learn the type of performance you like. Check out the Vendor's return policy prior to making your purchase. Or,,,,,,,,,,,,, See if you have an approved independent appraiser near you. Many Vendors will ship to an approved appraiser without requiring payment from you. Once you see the diamond, you'll know if it's the one for you.

 

[Spear]

I am commenting on a topic that I do not have a lot of knowledge about, any corrections to my post from experts are more then welcome.

Date: 6/6/2005 10:10:22 PM
Author:Bretzky


3) The Internet is a good place to start shopping but be aware that you can''t really see the diamond. The unique characteristics of diamonds cannot be conveyed with a picture on your screen and a group of parameters that may or may not mean anything to you.''

Brett,
I think it is important to buy from a vendor that has a 30 day return policy.

As pqcollectibles mentioned
" Once you see the diamond, you''ll know if it''s the one for you."

The 30 days are going to give you time to look at the stone yourself, and deside if it performs towards your own personal optical standerts.

What are you going to compare it against?

As pqcollectibles also mentioned, you should spend some time looking at diamonds in person so you can see what a well cut stone should look like.
If you have nothing to compare the stone that your interested in with, then buying a well cut stone can be very hard without using systems like Sarin reports, diamcalc exc.

It doesn''t matter if your buying online or from a traditional jewellery store, The 30 days should be used to look at the stone visualy and have it appraised if you feel it is necesary.

Your stone will never be exposed to the same lighting conditions outside of the jewellery store that you bought it from (If you decide to buy it from a jewellery store)

So naturaly during the 30 days you would evaluate the diamonds cut in lightin conditions that it would be exposed to in day to day life.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 6/7/2005 2:53:06 PM
Author: Spear

Date: 6/6/2005 10:10:22 PM
Author:Bretzky


3) The Internet is a good place to start shopping but be aware that you can't really see the diamond. The unique characteristics of diamonds cannot be conveyed with a picture on your screen and a group of parameters that may or may not mean anything to you.'

Brett,
I think it is important to buy from a vendor that has a 30 day return policy.

As pqcollectibles mentioned
' Once you see the diamond, you'll know if it's the one for you.'

The 30 days are going to give you time to look at the stone yourself, and deside if it performs towards your own personal optical standerts.

What are you going to compare it against?

As pqcollectibles also mentioned, you should spend some time looking at diamonds in person so you can see what a well cut stone should look like.
If you have nothing to compare the stone that your interested in with, then buying a well cut stone can be very hard without using systems like Sarin reports, diamcalc exc.

It doesn't matter if your buying online or from a traditional jewellery store, The 30 days should be used to look at the stone visualy and have it appraised if you feel it is necesary.

Your stone will never be exposed to the same lighting conditions outside of the jewellery store that you bought it from (If you decide to buy it from a jewellery store)

So naturaly during the 30 days you would evaluate the diamonds cut in lightin conditions that it would be exposed to in day to day life.

I agree with much above (but -- consistent with the small amount of time you have with a diamond before purchase...kind of like taking a test drive of a car...continuing with the car analogy, I might rather go with the consumer reports type data of repair history, i.e. what sarin and scopes tell me, out of the box, over the vagaries of observation made, necessarily -- unless those observations happen for you as they did with PQ, unlike for me -- where I failed to be "struck over the head").

(Edited to add...don't mis-understand...I think I'd always go with the winner of the pepsi test, but...with regular lighting, etc., I may not necessarily be wowed, but happy ultimately, when given a broad chance to compare...frequently not possible unless at a B&M, where you're typically NOT with these sorts of purchases.)

But re the 30 days...despite that being a preference, given the propensity of good vendors requiring less time....look (3 times as) quick, maybe instead.

 

[pqcollectibles]

"unless those observations happen for you as they did with PQ, unlike for me -- where I failed to be "struck over the head." "

I didn''t necessarily mean the diamond would "bowl you over."

If you get out and look at well cut diamonds you''ll learn the type of performance that appeals to your eye.

Some diamonds return a lot of white light,....... very brilliant.

Some diamonds are very sparkly with lots of smaller flashes of color and light,............. very bubbly.

Some diamonds give off big, bold flashes of light and color.

etc, etc, etc.

Once you learn what type of performance appeals to you, you''ll know if the diamond is for you when you see it live and in person.

You might also get an Ideal Scope to take along with you as you look at diamonds in person. Learn what the IS image looks like that appeals to your eye. Then as you see diamonds listed on the Net, with IS images available, you''ll have a better idea of what type of performance to expect.

Sarin report provides great info. Many of the experts here can spot potential problems in diamonds simply by looking at the numbers.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 6/7/2005 2:53:06 PM
Author: Spear
I am commenting on a topic that I do not have a lot of knowledge about, any corrections to my post from experts are more then welcome.




Brett,
I think it is important to buy from a vendor that has a 30 day return policy.

I wouldn''t make a "correction", per se, but I do want to chime in and say that I bought from a vendor with a 10-day policy, and I really though that was more than enough time to evaluate the stone.

I had mine sent to an appraiser first, so my 10-day return didn''t begin until *I* received the stone....at which point appraiser had already reviewed.

 

[strmrdr]

30 days is nice but with the way the business works isnt too practical, 10 days or better yet 15 should be enough time to decide if you want to keep it.
Someplace around here is a long thread on return policies that explains it in boring detail if someone wants to hunt it down.

 

[pqcollectibles]

10 day return period is really long enough. If you plan to return the diamond, you have until the 10th day to ship the diamond out. Plan your appraiser''s evaluation in advance of receiving the diamond and 10 days is plenty with room to spare.

Compare all of the Vendor''s policies to see how they compare.

Do they offer 30 day Returns and no Life Time Upgrade?? Does the Vendor offer a Buy Back policy of some sort?? Each Vendor has different policies. Find the Vendor you are most comfortable with and work from there.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 6/7/2005 8:31:07 PM
Author: strmrdr
30 days is nice but with the way the business works isnt too practical, 10 days or better yet 15 should be enough time to decide if you want to keep it.
Someplace around here is a long thread on return policies that explains it in boring detail if someone wants to hunt it down.

Leonid has stored SuperIdealist's efforts to catalog this information, fairly recently compiled, in the FAQs section of this site.

 

[Bretzky]

Thanks to everyone for all the great info. My big concern is that I have about a 45 day window to purchase a diamond. I was a little worried about picking a diamond online, seeing it in person, not being satisfied, and then having to send it back only to select another one. I''d really like to narrow a diamond down to a selection that will only rarely (<5% of the time) be a dud.

I''m currently thinking about purchasing one of the "A Cut Above" or "SuperbCert" type diamonds, in order to minimize the chances that I''ll have to send it back. From what I can tell, having one of these branded diamonds, along with IdealScope images, HCA number and a DiamCalc image, I''ll be able to do this pretty effectively.

Brett

 

[Regular Guy]

Brett,

Unless I mis-read your profile, looks like you can not only throw a rock at White Flash, but among the dozen options you might want to consider from them, I think they''ll let you look you look at all 12, and buy you a cup of coffee...though I''m not wanting to manage anyone''s calendar in suggesting as much.

But even without this unusual possible bonus, speaking from both personal experience (in working with DCD), and from having read substantive testimony here, I think the odds of your having regret from working with either vendor you''ve mentioned would be quite small.

Best to you,

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Certainly going to WF or SB or even Wink and the Infinity diamonds.

There have been many folk on here who - i''ll use Brian and WF as an example, but the same applys to both Barry at SuperbCert, Wink and Paul at Infinity.

As i said... many cases where folk have phoned up WF, to enquire.. and been able to speak to Brian... the man behind the ACA diamonds, and i believe both situations have arisen where the buyer just has a kind of idea for example - 1c eye clean kind of thing... and they''ll be able to pull several diamonds out their vaults, and talk through them over the phone with the diamonds infront of them. or that a buyer is interested in 2, 3, 4, 5... diamonds... again these can be pulled and viewed side by side and Brian is honest enough to give his opinon on what he is seeing - even when comparign ACA with an expert selection diamonds. Futher to this WF have been known to be happy to have 2 diamonds sent out to an independant appraiser who fulfils certain criterior - this way you can visit the appraiser and see them for yourself.

best bet.. have alook through their sites... get on the blower and have a word about any that pique your fancy.

good luck

we''ll await the pictures

 

[Spear]

Well yeah,
It doesn''t matter if the return policy is 10, 15 or 30 days.
In reality, It would not take more then 10 minutes to decide whether the stone lives up to your personal optical preferences.
I like 30 days, because I live on the other side of the world from vendors like WF and GOG.
You can imagine that fedex parcels containing diamonds tend to get stuck in customs for a period of time.
The point that I am trying to make is that when your buying online, the return policy gives you a opportunity to look at the stone with your own eyes.
If you can look at the stone visually before you buy, then all the better.
There are a lot of cut-grading systems.
And all of these systems serves their purpose of allowing the customer to be more confident in the buying of un-seen diamonds.

A while ago a brilliancescope report of the Infinity princess cut was posted on PS, and later some pictures of the Infinity princess was also posted.

Now If I were to look at that Infinity princess with my own eyes.
And look at its Brilliance and Fire with my own eyes, I would not really care to see the Brilliance scope report.
After seeing the Brilliancescope report on PS, I am convinced that Infinity Princess''s are cut to exceptionally high standers.
But seeing one of these stones personally would be even more convincing and I would not care about what the Brilliancescope says.

Hope that makes sence!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/8/2005 9:42:47 AM
Author: Spear
Well yeah,

It doesn''t matter if the return policy is 10, 15 or 30 days.

In reality, It would not take more then 10 minutes to decide whether the stone lives up to your personal optical preferences.

I like 30 days, because I live on the other side of the world from vendors like WF and GOG.

You can imagine that fedex parcels containing diamonds tend to get stuck in customs for a period of time.

The point that I am trying to make is that when your buying online, the return policy gives you a opportunity to look at the stone with your own eyes.

If you can look at the stone visually before you buy, then all the better.

There are a lot of cut-grading systems.

And all of these systems serves their purpose of allowing the customer to be more confident in the buying of un-seen diamonds.

A while ago a brilliancescope report of the Infinity princess cut was posted on PS, and later some pictures of the Infinity princess was also posted.

Now If I were to look at that Infinity princess with my own eyes.

And look at its Brilliance and Fire with my own eyes, I would not really care to see the Brilliance scope report.

After seeing the Brilliancescope report on PS, I am convinced that Infinity Princess''s are cut to exceptionally high standers.

But seeing one of these stones personally would be even more convincing and I would not care about what the Brilliancescope says.


Hope that makes sence!

Actualy with a lot of the PS vendors the 10 days starts when you recieve it not when they send it out.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 6/7/2005 6:29:10 PM
Author: pqcollectibles
''unless those observations happen for you as they did with PQ, unlike for me -- where I failed to be ''struck over the head.'' ''

I didn''t necessarily mean the diamond would ''bowl you over.''

If you get out and look at well cut diamonds you''ll learn the type of performance that appeals to your eye.

Some diamonds return a lot of white light,....... very brilliant.

Some diamonds are very sparkly with lots of smaller flashes of color and light,............. very bubbly.

Some diamonds give off big, bold flashes of light and color.

etc, etc, etc.

Once you learn what type of performance appeals to you, you''ll know if the diamond is for you when you see it live and in person.

You might also get an Ideal Scope to take along with you as you look at diamonds in person. Learn what the IS image looks like that appeals to your eye. Then as you see diamonds listed on the Net, with IS images available, you''ll have a better idea of what type of performance to expect.

Sarin report provides great info. Many of the experts here can spot potential problems in diamonds simply by looking at the numbers.

PQ, actually, my shopping hasn''t matured significantly since I began my acquaintance with Pricescope, and so I do appreciate your comments here. John Q recently talks about the kind of Pricescope visitor who gets on for 10 days, learns as much as he can, and goes on his way. That sort of describes me, except I forgot to get off 10 days later, but got fascinated with the processes I learned to make my first purchase.

On another post here, I''m inquiring about attending a Gem show, where I might find another forum to actually mature some of my diamond shopping skills, without particularly inconveniencing anybody too much (as I simply am not in a serious shopping mode). We''ll see where that goes.

 

[Bretzky]

Date: 6/8/2005 12:21:52 AM
Author: Regular Guy
Brett,


Unless I mis-read your profile, looks like you can not only throw a rock at White Flash, but among the dozen options you might want to consider from them, I think they''ll let you look you look at all 12, and buy you a cup of coffee...though I''m not wanting to manage anyone''s calendar in suggesting as much.


But even without this unusual possible bonus, speaking from both personal experience (in working with DCD), and from having read substantive testimony here, I think the odds of your having regret from working with either vendor you''ve mentioned would be quite small.


Best to you,

You''re right about my profile and actually I just noticed that WF was in Houston last night, and better still, its within my zip code!! Assuming they''ll let me see the diamonds at their location, this should be really easy! I''ll let you all know how it turns out.

Thanks!!!

Brett