Why are our tax dollars going to fund other countries'' abortions?
- Thread starter starsapphire
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klewis
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Quoting history is not an attempt to deliberately insult another country, and if you find it so it''s your problem entirely - I didn''t write the history but please debate it if you think I''ve got it wrong. I am interested in an exchange of ideas and interested ALL the posts on this thread, not just the ones I agree with. By insulting other PSers I presume you''re referring to my reply to starsapphire and my last reply to Hollys? Well I do wonder what starsapphire considers reality, as she said books aren''t and I hope she replys. "Politely insulting", like "acting naturally" are oxymorons...aren''t they?
iheartscience
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For the record, I''m certain klewis has been insulted far more often than he''s insulted anyone else. Furthermore, I fail to see how disagreeing with a country''s policy is insulting the country. Is America going to cry about it or something?
iheartscience
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And Holly-I thought you said earlier in the thread that you were pro-choice, but now you''re saying you have moral squabbles with it. Which is it? Are you anti-abortion? Or are you just trying to fit in with the kids on the morally outraged side?
iheartscience
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I fail to see how being deliberately uninformed but arguing anyway is a positive thing. (Although now I understand why you like Sarah Palin-you have a lot in common with her!)
beebrisk
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You were not merely "quoting history" you were inferring that this country is corrupt to it's core.
As for pointing out the oxymoron, please make an honest argument here. You were not correcting grammar, you were being a smart -ss, pure and simple.
I also enjoy differing opinions and even an argument once in awhile... So long as it's HONEST.
klewis
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beebrisk - As I said, debate the history if you want.
In the last two days friends have coincidentially, pointed out 2 oxymorons. "Fun run" (debatable) and "act naturally" - so it did genuinely strike me as "oh another one" when I read the post. Of course I saw the "other side", but anyone who reads her posts knows HollyS is no shrinking violet.
In the last two days friends have coincidentially, pointed out 2 oxymorons. "Fun run" (debatable) and "act naturally" - so it did genuinely strike me as "oh another one" when I read the post. Of course I saw the "other side", but anyone who reads her posts knows HollyS is no shrinking violet.
MoonWater
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ROFLMAO!!!
I''m sorry, are you new around these parts? Try a post search to help ya out. Incidentally, I bonded with Karen precisely due to the many books she references. Quite a few are sitting on our bookshelves, others are on my wishlist, but thanks for asking.
Oh and it''s really amazing how books can contribute to reality, doncha think ladies? Odd that someone would sacrifice one for the other.
As far as one line zingers, it took me a while, but I''ve come to realize some posters are only worth that much. I don''t appreciate debating with the admittedly ignorant.
Now, back to reading my dense ass books...(cept I''m focusing on religion...yet again...yes Karen, I''m crazy).
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Whooo hooo! I made it to the end of chapter TWO! A whole 53 pages now I''ve read, with 30 of them being done this weekend. Doesn''t sound like much but I feel like it''s a real accomplishment with Arendt. I''m not exactly bored, but reading the chapter headings makes me want to get to some of the later chapters NOW. I especially want to get to the chapters on totalitarianism. Right now I''m ploughing through background on the European Jewery and how they fit into the rising tide of antisemitism. Great stuff, but I think it''ll be more interesting as I get further in. And yes Moon, I know you''re crazy. Anyone who reads this stuff for fun - me included, is NOT right in the head!
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I just wanted to say that I enjoy discussing these topics with people such as Wishful who can have an opposing viewpoint and be respectful and not condescending to others.
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You claim the current situation in Iran is laid solely at the feet of Carter. Support it. Tell us why. If you don''t want to type the entire justification, link something. Cite a paragraph in a book. Support it.
You conveniently ignore the fact that we meddled in Iranian internal affairs. Tell me how CIA involvment in the overthrow of Mossadegh did NOT contribute to ill will on the part of the Iranians. Tell me why our overthrow of their duly elected government should have been welcomed. Please do explain to me why this action should not be viewed as reprehensible by any sovereign government.
You also conveniently ignore the polices of the 80''s supporting Hussein as a buffer against our now enemies in Iran. Please explain to me why they should love us when we supplied their enemy with weapons and funding. Or better yet, tell me why the 80''s and early 90''s had no impact at all on the current situation, since this whole thing is Carter''s fault.
HollyS
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I never have changed my position. I''m not waffling. If you want an abortion, you''re rights are protected by law. I don''t have any intention of quibbling about that; nor do I want the government to tell you what you can do or not do. But, because my personal viewpoint is that abortiion is not a ''reproductive right'', but is in fact the murder of a human, I do not intend to ever have an abortion myself. What you do is your moral dilemma; and I prefer -- actually expect and will exercise my right to demand -- that you pay for it yourself. If you can''t pay, don''t play.
I am, of course, referring to abortion as a ''birth control'' device as used by countless hapless or merely clueless women everywhere. I''m not referring to a woman who has been advised to terminate because of health issues or deformities. I''m not referring to a woman who has been traumatized and now finds hersef pregnant. While termination of a pregnancy is still the ending of a human life, by our hands; I would not presume to decide for that woman facing such a difficult choice. I would assume or hope that she has sought emotional and/or spiritual guidance to make her decision, and has made the best possible choice for herself.
As for the vast majority of abortions, performed on women who simply do not want the child, I disagree that this is a good and viable option; but it isn''t my decision. And I neither want to insinuate myself into her choice, or shell out for it.
Now, are we all clear on where I stand? Or have I been murky? ''Cause I have addressed this before, in more than one thread. Everybody swears they remember every dotted i and crossed t of my posts going back more than a year, I would think my position on this subject would not be in question.
luckystar112
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I don''t believe you. Citation from a dense book or it''s not true. Or at least casually mention that you''re reading one.
Sorry I had to. I obviously am quite amazed by the literature that few of you read for fun.
klewis
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I too would like to know why you believe this Holly, because you mentioned it earlier at length and although we asked for more info you haven''t replied. Not that your obliged of course, but is there evidence anywhere to support your claim?
HollyS
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Karen, you know I was not referring to your take on history. Or your objection to my view on history. I''m talking tone. And condescension. And yeah, I''m well aware that because we don''t see eye to eye, you feel exactly the same way about my posts.
I don''t want to be you, Or Moon. I don''t want to discuss books and articles ad nauseum. I don''t want to quote the liberal think tanks, or the conservative die hards. I have at times, but I don''t make a habit of it. And do you know why? Because regardless of where that infomation came from, you or someone else will disagree and disparage it anyway. Really, I don''t see the point. We aren''t capable here on PS of having a civil discussion (unless you are WishfulThinking); we''ve ALL proven that time and again. We''re only civil to the people we agree with. So I''m done on this thread, because as usual, it''s turned into the US vs. THEM debacle it always becomes.
vespergirl
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Agreed - I wish that we provided federal funding for abortions here in the US. It would take millions of women and children off of our welfare rolls, and prevent the rampant child neglect and abuse that happens in situations where mothers have children that they are not prepared to care for.
I am also completely against the war in Iraq for this reason - we are building Iraq''s infrastructure while our own needs rebuilding.
elle_chris
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I rarely, Rarely comment in this section of the board because the differing views always lead to bashing other memebrs of this forum. But you Klewis, well, you''re in a class all by yourself.
Where did anyone say they were against rebuilding Iraq?? WHERE? they were saying they wished that more would be invested in our own infrastructure. There''s nothing wrong with that.
You though, take it to a whole new level and need to throw in "rebuilding because you destroyed it". No one asked why, we KNOW why. Regardless of what you say, your posts clearly show you are very anti-america.
You give off the impression you think this country is the great evil. Like someone else said, be thankful you don''t live amongst us destroyers.
Where did anyone say they were against rebuilding Iraq?? WHERE? they were saying they wished that more would be invested in our own infrastructure. There''s nothing wrong with that.
You though, take it to a whole new level and need to throw in "rebuilding because you destroyed it". No one asked why, we KNOW why. Regardless of what you say, your posts clearly show you are very anti-america.
You give off the impression you think this country is the great evil. Like someone else said, be thankful you don''t live amongst us destroyers.
vespergirl
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Actually, I didn''t destroy anything, and I have been against the war in Iraq since day one. I didn''t vote for Bush in either election - he is a moron. I always thought it was a stupid idea to invade one of the only secular countries in the middle east if we are trying to hinder the growth of fundamentalist theocracies in the region, like Iran and Saudi Arabia. We should have focused our troops more heavily in Afghanistan, and invaded Saudi Arabia as well, since the Saudis funded and support Bin Laden.
vespergirl
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Elle, KLewis is clearly displaying some sort of inferiority complex - maybe he''s jealous of Americans and that''s why he feels the need to criticize our country. I also wanted to point out that the USA has given out far more money in foreign aid than New Zealand has, so regardless of what he thinks about us "destroying" other countries, we defiintely do more to help other countries than his own country does.
klewis
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Yes , I should have said "America" and not "you" - I''m sorry for that.
It is interesting to look at the statistics various countires give in overseas aid and New Zealand is not at the top of that list, but give we do. I do still think if anyone deliberately destroys something they have an obligation to put it right, and as far as Iraq goes, America should be asking its coalition of the willing partners to cough up and contribute with the rebuild - as long as they too get a piece of the pie with the rebuilding contracts of course. Some of the smaller coalition partners are alleged to have received aid as an incentive to join the coalition so America could get that back perhaps and of course if the whole sorry mess had not happened there would be lots and lots of money not sqandered to spend on infrastructure in America.
It is interesting to look at the statistics various countires give in overseas aid and New Zealand is not at the top of that list, but give we do. I do still think if anyone deliberately destroys something they have an obligation to put it right, and as far as Iraq goes, America should be asking its coalition of the willing partners to cough up and contribute with the rebuild - as long as they too get a piece of the pie with the rebuilding contracts of course. Some of the smaller coalition partners are alleged to have received aid as an incentive to join the coalition so America could get that back perhaps and of course if the whole sorry mess had not happened there would be lots and lots of money not sqandered to spend on infrastructure in America.
beebrisk
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So a woman isn''t ready or prepared to have a child and my tax dollars should pay for her abortion? What happened to personal responsibility?? Why should I (or anyone else) have to pay for that???
And it''s better to have an abortion because after all, if a woman isn''t prepared she might abuse her own child?? What happened to human decency?
Mothers neglect and abuse their children because they are evil. Pure and simple. Child neglect and abuse has NOTHING to do with the "preparedness" of the mother. If that were the case, why don''t we see a rash of child murderers in 3rd world countries?? No, in those places you see mothers STRUGGLING to provide for their children, scrounging for every morsel they can find to feed their babies. And they don''t neglect them, beat them or murder them. Those poor children, born under the world''s WORST circumstances are loved and nurtured and protected. Only here in America, in this extraordinary selfish society we''ve created along with our twisted reasoning can we promote and condone abortion to prevent "unprepared" mothers from harming their children.
And I''m told to pay for it!!??
Despicable on every level.
starsapphire
Shiny_Rock
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Hmmm abortion is population control!!! I just figured it out.....and no, I did not read it in a book!!! Liberals will never actually admit it though.....
kellyfish
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So true!! Just wait until Socialized medicine rolls in! You will start seeing a big push towards full legalized abortion and "right to die" legislation. Get ''em off your books ''cause they cost too much to the gov''t. Think that sounds unbelievable? It''s not. Just do a search for it & see what is happening in other countries with socialized medicine......
swimmer
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Probably not touching the central issue here.
Just wanted to point out to Beebrisk and anyone else who might feel that the US is alone in the abuse of children. You know that 25 million Chinese girls are missing, technically they were never born, but statistically that is impossible. You probably also know that infanticide is not uncommon in West Africa, and the child soldiers of East Africa are not always stolen. I''ve seen children maimed by their parents in India in order to beg more effectively (did you see Slumdog Millionaire? You might feel differently about the US sending our excess corn to other people.) Children are sold into sexual slavery and just plain old slavery in a few Southeast Asian countries and frequently end up exploited by Europeans and Americans.
Yes, most women in the developing world and everywhere would do anything to feed their children, but some are fine seeing their children die as "martyrs" killing other womens'' children. Are these women just insane with some sort of blood lust? NO, the are lacking food, education, resources, and hope for the future. That is the only thing that could compel a rational woman to hurt her child.
The USA is unique in many ways, but very sadly child abuse, infanticide, and abuse is not limited to us. Of course the need for healthcare and education to prevent unwanted pregnancy is universal. The ending of the gag rule will help with condom distribution and HIV-AIDS education that is based on science..
Klewis, I''m a huge fan of NZ, but you are blindly and erroneously lashing out at many of us who share similar sentiments about the mindless/brainless nature of war, etc. Um, yeah, Turkey give the US any aid money back? Are you smoking hashish? They really need that funding. Do be careful with generalizations, we could start talking about what YOU personally did to exploit the Maori.
Just wanted to point out to Beebrisk and anyone else who might feel that the US is alone in the abuse of children. You know that 25 million Chinese girls are missing, technically they were never born, but statistically that is impossible. You probably also know that infanticide is not uncommon in West Africa, and the child soldiers of East Africa are not always stolen. I''ve seen children maimed by their parents in India in order to beg more effectively (did you see Slumdog Millionaire? You might feel differently about the US sending our excess corn to other people.) Children are sold into sexual slavery and just plain old slavery in a few Southeast Asian countries and frequently end up exploited by Europeans and Americans.
Yes, most women in the developing world and everywhere would do anything to feed their children, but some are fine seeing their children die as "martyrs" killing other womens'' children. Are these women just insane with some sort of blood lust? NO, the are lacking food, education, resources, and hope for the future. That is the only thing that could compel a rational woman to hurt her child.
The USA is unique in many ways, but very sadly child abuse, infanticide, and abuse is not limited to us. Of course the need for healthcare and education to prevent unwanted pregnancy is universal. The ending of the gag rule will help with condom distribution and HIV-AIDS education that is based on science..
Klewis, I''m a huge fan of NZ, but you are blindly and erroneously lashing out at many of us who share similar sentiments about the mindless/brainless nature of war, etc. Um, yeah, Turkey give the US any aid money back? Are you smoking hashish? They really need that funding. Do be careful with generalizations, we could start talking about what YOU personally did to exploit the Maori.
beebrisk
Brilliant_Rock
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Look at each of the countries you listed above. Communist, iron-fisted, totalitarian societies. (Except for India of course, but then they still have that little problem of the caste system).
Aren''t we supposed to be the civilized ones?? Aren''t we supposed to set an example in the world? Can we agree that reverence for life is the right thing? The moral thing?
Lack of food, education, resources and hope are NOT compelling reasons to hurt a child. It does NOT make it right or acceptable and for us to work under that assumption makes us no better than China, East Africa or any of the others.
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