Whiteflash ACA pricing and value

[gordon86]

Hi, I previously bought a 2.6 carat ACA diamond from Whiteflash for my wife and am looking to trade in and upgrade to a 3.8-3.9 carat F VS2 ACA diamond for our 10 year anniversary. However, I was quite taken aback by the quotation that was provided by Whiteflash so I just wanted to check with all the experts in this forum

1) The quoted ACA 3.9-4 carat F VS2 is 140-150k, a whooping 40% premium above a triple excellent 3.9 non ACA diamond (listed at 106k usd). The premium is much higher than what i expected and I was just wondering if this is normal because based on my analysis on the whiteflash website on smaller diamonds (around 2 carat), the premium is more 15-25%
2) if I were to sell the diamond outside in the future, does the independent appraiser or jeweller actually value the ACA quality or is it an immediate loss?

Thank you all for the assistance on this! I really appreciate it

 

[MissGotRocks]

The larger the diamond, the higher the price. Diamonds in the 3.9 - 4.0 range are not plentiful in super ideal cuts. I don't think you can look at 2 carat diamonds and draw any correlation between their premium and that of a 4 carat diamond. Super ideal diamonds cause more rough to be lost due to the precision of the cut, so that factors in as well.

I can't speak to an appraised value - we can ask @denverappraiser, a contributor to PS, how much of a difference the make of a diamond factors into an appraisal. I would certainly think that it should to an extent but used diamonds seldom, if ever, sell for the price you might have paid. It has been said that you could sell the diamond for approximately 70% of the retail price you paid. A commodity that generally never changes in condition and yet does not always hold their purchase price. They are not an investments and should not be looked at in that way. A diamond of 140-150k is a large outlay of cash that would be expected to bring much joy to the wearer and in a perfect world, passed on to someone that would enjoy it as well. I would not buy it hoping that it will hold its value in resell. As with all commodities, prices fluctuate and there are no iron clad expectations in value to be had in my opinion.

 

[kenny]

I searched WF and didn't find any ACAs at 3.8-3.9 carat F VS2.
Is WF giving you a quote on a diamond they would have to find rough for, and then cut it for you to ACA specs, instead of an ACA already in their inventory?
If so, they'd have to find a rough that will end up F VS2 and 3.8-3.9 carat.
That's a tall order.
When examining rough I believe they can only estimate what the final weight, color, and clarity would be after polishing.

As MissGotRocks stated natural diamonds that large are quite rare, but then if WF is expected to also find a rough diamond that ends up at a single clarity grade and single color grade AND to top it off it has be precision cut ACA that must end up within a 0.1 ct window?
Then they have to do it FAST because of your anniversary date.
EEK! That's not just a tall order.
That would be a needle in a haystack.
Plus WF may need to add a premium to the price for all your custom requests and the rush - that would not be in the price of a diamond already in their vault which just ended up at their polished specs and produced on their usual schedule

I'd give the below 4.1 ct ACA very strong consideration.
Yes it's an I instead of F, but it's an ACA that's VS2, and it's over 4 ct.
But it's nearly half the price of what you are considering.
If resale down the road is a consideration, being over the important milestone of 4 ct justifies a higher price.
Plus I suspect there are more buyers looking for near-colorless G H I diamonds than are willing to pay for the premium of a colorless D E F one.

I'd get this one and, with all that left over cash, get her a convertible red Porsche.

 

[gordon86]

Thank you for all the reply so far. To be clear on resale value, not an important point to me honestly was just wondering if ACA command a premium outside of Whiteflash. Again not an impt point but thanks for entertaining my thoughts

Yes, the ACA 3.8-3.9 would be cut specifically for me as they currently do not have it in stock. Was just surprised by the pricing as it is a 40% premium above an in-stock triple excellent non ACA 3.9 diamond. So was hoping to get some clarity if this pricing makes sense

 

[DejaWiz]

Thank you for all the reply so far. To be clear on resale value, not an important point to me honestly was just wondering if ACA command a premium outside of Whiteflash. Again not an impt point but thanks for entertaining my thoughts

Yes, the ACA 3.8-3.9 would be cut specifically for me as they currently do not have it in stock. Was just surprised by the pricing as it is a 40% premium above an in-stock triple excellent non ACA 3.9 diamond. So was hoping to get some clarity if this pricing makes sense

To the right private buyer, yes.
Finding a private buyer willing to take on the expense for a secondhand diamond of such caliber will likely be a tumultuous challenge in and of itself...bear in mind the current state of the global economy and shifting priorities.

Keep the current ACA and look towards a 4+ carat LGD, perhaps? May not hurt to at least investigate that route.

 

[kenny]

Yes, the ACA 3.8-3.9 would be cut specifically for me as they currently do not have it in stock. Was just surprised by the pricing as it is a 40% premium above an in-stock triple excellent non ACA 3.9 diamond. So was hoping to get some clarity if this pricing makes sense

Perhaps the price would drop if your 3.8 - 3.9 F VS2 specs were not so unforgivingly specific.
Again, before cutting I suspect they can only estimate what the final specs will end up being.

I'd ask Whiteflash's @Texas Leaguer if opening up a rage for your tight specs would decrease the cost, and speed up the process of finding rough.

 

[kenny]

FWIW, I suspect this is the GIA XXX non-ACA the OP was referring to in WF's inventory.

We all know that GIA XXX is a wide range that unfortunately can include some not-so-great cuts.
Could some of our cut experts here please weight in on this specific diamond?

Diamond | 3.90 ct F VS2 Round Cut Loose Diamond GIA Certified | GIA2223131361 | GIA

This fabulous 3.90 carat Round Excellent cut diamond has a clarity grade of VS2 and color grade of F.It is a great choice for those seeking the finest in diamond cut. | 141565558 | GIA

www.whiteflash.com

View attachment 943918

 

[Tonks]

Hi, I previously bought a 2.6 carat ACA diamond from Whiteflash for my wife and am looking to trade in and upgrade to a 3.8-3.9 carat F VS2 ACA diamond for our 10 year anniversary. However, I was quite taken aback by the quotation that was provided by Whiteflash so I just wanted to check with all the experts in this forum

1) The quoted ACA 3.9-4 carat F VS2 is 140-150k, a whooping 40% premium above a triple excellent 3.9 non ACA diamond (listed at 106k usd). The premium is much higher than what i expected and I was just wondering if this is normal because based on my analysis on the whiteflash website on smaller diamonds (around 2 carat), the premium is more 15-25%
2) if I were to sell the diamond outside in the future, does the independent appraiser or jeweller actually value the ACA quality or is it an immediate loss?

Thank you all for the assistance on this! I really appreciate it

Hi!
I just went through the process of custom cutting with WF. If that is what you are thinking about, my advice would be to consider whether you need F color. We explored various carat sizes from 3.7 to 4.0-4.05, and *while we were looking* (it could be different now because the market for rough changes at the speed of light), color was more expensive to go up in grade than was clarity.

Fwiw, we placed a deposit on a stone that was guaranteed to be a minimum 4.0–4.05, I color, VS1. When they finished cutting, my stone was 4.2 I, VVS2. Recognizing that that particular result is kind of like winning the lottery, I would highly recommend custom cutting with WF.


Re: the particular stone linked above by @kenny , I am not a cut expert by any means, but I would call that a 60/60 stone. My understanding is that while a 60/60 can be very pretty, it will have more brightness than fire. Whereas a stone cut to ACA standards will have both. For me, and for many members of this forum who have chosen ACA stones, they are worth the premium.

 

[LilAlex]

...a whooping 40% premium above a triple excellent 3.9 non ACA diamond...

I think this is a great question and a great discussion: what are the factors that drive the out-sized premium for an ideal-cut in this generous size range?

Related: is an ideal cut (vs. merely an XXX) more or less important as stone size increases? This is the other side of the coin -- is the payoff for the splurge more evident in a big ideal-cut vs. a more modest one (e.g., a one-ct stone)?

Hope I'm not de-railing but it's an important related factor, imo.

 

[Tonks]

While you are evaluating cut, perhaps this chart will be helpful:

I think this is a great question and a great discussion: what are the factors that drive the out-sized premium for an ideal-cut in this generous size range?

Related: is an ideal cut (vs. merely an XXX) more or less important as stone size increases? This is the other side of the coin -- is the payoff for the splurge more evident in a big ideal-cut vs. a more modest one (e.g., a one-ct stone)?

Hope I'm not de-railing but it's an important related factor, imo.

To your question, @LilAlex , my answer is probably obvious given that I paid the premium for an ACA on a stone this size. To me, cut gets *more* important as size increases. These stones are big enough that they are not hiding or going under the radar. I would think that having looked at a 2.6 ACA for ten years (2.6 is NOT a small stone), it would be hard for your wife to go down to a GIA triple ex. She is used to ACA performance.

One other thing: there are not many stones cut at 3.8 unless you cut them. They have to buy 4 carat rough and cut it down. So you pay the premium for a 4 carat whether you get a 4 carat or not.

 

[MissGotRocks]

The 3.90 diamond posted above is in no way an apples to apples comparison to an ACA. Pricing is, of course, not on par with an ACA diamond. Some people prefer the look of a 60/60 diamond but after your wife having had an ACA, I definitely think she would notice a big difference in performance. Also, in order for you to get the full value of the current stone, you would most likely have to trade it in with Whiteflash.
This may be a moot point but has she tried on a diamond of that size? I am just wondering if she is in on this process or are you trying to surprise her with the gift of an upgrade? For a large purchase such as this, I would definitely want her input too as to size and color.

 

[lulu_ma]

Would you consider a pre-loved ACA? A well-known PSer has this ring on consignment in LA. It's more than a custom cut 3.9 ct, but is quite spectacular at 5.31 cts-if you would consider H color. Not sure if the price is slightly negotiable...

5.31ct Round Brilliant Cut Diamond Halo Ring, AGS H VS2

Incredibly beautiful and statement making round brilliant cut diamond, set in an equally beautiful halo setting by Victor Canera.The diamond is an AGS Triple 000, which means the diamond has an ideal cut, ideal polish, and ideal symmetry - the best of the best for round brilliants! Beautiful and...

www.jewelsbygrace.com

 

[WillyDiamond]

OP
Personally I do not think you are in a good financial buy situation here. You did not tell us when you bought the original diamond, in most cases diamond prices until recently have climbed thru the roof, we have been living with the shortages brought by Covid. You bought the diamond “retail” now you want to sell it. You sell to a dealer “wholesale”, they have to mark it up to resell. Furthermore, this diamond you want to buy does not really exist, or does not exist in WF inventory so they have to find a big stone, cut it, sounds like they are building in some huge margins here. Dealers, and they are smart, not the first time buying a diamond are not going to pay a premium for ACA.

OP, if you want to close this price gap I would consider a lab grown diamond. Welcome to the new world of diamonds. Years ago we bought by walking into a a brick and mortar retail store, today we have more options like buying over the Internet.

Good luck.

 

[lulu_ma]

Here’s a visual comparison of diamonds with 61% tables, 33% crown angles, and 41.2% pavilion angles (like the GIA xxx you posted) versus ACA portions.

I think it’s easy to see visual difference in cut. The arrows are definitely crisper with ACA standard angles.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

The reason the quote is that high is because in order to make a high 3 ct stone, they would have to source rough that would potentially cut a 4 ct stone. So they are going to charge for a 4 ct stone. If you want to go for 3.5, then there's a possibility they could find rough for less. But 3.8-3.9 cts is going to require 4 ct rough, so you'd actually be aiming for a 4 ct stone and paying the price of a 4 ct stone.

I may have missed where you said this, but what color is your wife's current diamond?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Would you consider a pre-loved ACA? A well-known PSer has this ring on consignment in LA. It's more than a custom cut 3.9 ct, but is quite spectacular at 5.31 cts-if you would consider H color. Not sure if the price is slightly negotiable...

5.31ct Round Brilliant Cut Diamond Halo Ring, AGS H VS2

Incredibly beautiful and statement making round brilliant cut diamond, set in an equally beautiful halo setting by Victor Canera.The diamond is an AGS Triple 000, which means the diamond has an ideal cut, ideal polish, and ideal symmetry - the best of the best for round brilliants! Beautiful and...

www.jewelsbygrace.com

Beautiful ring and stone, but that's not an ACA just to be clear.

 

[Karl_K]

Demand over 4ct with custom cutting, your paying for it anyway because the rough would cut a 4ct gia ex even if it was cut into a 3.9ct stone.
Targeting light stones when custom cutting will never work out for you.
The price is based on the rough and its a full weight stone rough in a different configuration.

edit: @diamondseeker2006 sorry didn't see your post saying the same thing.

 

[gordon86]

Wow logged in to a whole series of replies! Thank you all for providing inputs!

I think I am set for ACA as many of you have said, once my wife has gone ACA, its hard to go back. Haha and specs wise we are quite set on F color and VS 1/2. I just wanted a second opinion on whether the price that was quoted to me (140-150k for F vs2 3.8-4 carat) was fair as it was a huge jump % wise from a non ACA stone and when I bought the previous 2.6 carat F color, it was only 10-15% premium vs 40% premium this time round which caught me by surprise. If everyone believe it is a fair price I will probably move ahead with the purchase so I can surprise my wife for our anniversary next year

@Tonks - keen to hear more about your experience. When the actual product is bigger than the target carat size, did you have to top up or did they honour the previous price? From the sound of it you did not have to top up which is a fantastic deal. Also if you dont mind, how much did you end up paying for the diamond just so i have a reference point.

 

[kenny]

I'm glad you're sticking with ACA.

I have one, and it's thrilling to wear.

 

[lulu_ma]

Beautiful ring and stone, but that's not an ACA just to be clear.

Oh goodness @diamondseeker2006 thanks for the correction! All of these years, I thought Holly was an ACA. Thanks for catching that. I looked at her cert and saw the AGS 0. I should have dug further in the thread!

 

[Tonks]

Wow logged in to a whole series of replies! Thank you all for providing inputs!

I think I am set for ACA as many of you have said, once my wife has gone ACA, its hard to go back. Haha and specs wise we are quite set on F color and VS 1/2. I just wanted a second opinion on whether the price that was quoted to me (140-150k for F vs2 3.8-4 carat) was fair as it was a huge jump % wise from a non ACA stone and when I bought the previous 2.6 carat F color, it was only 10-15% premium vs 40% premium this time round which caught me by surprise. If everyone believe it is a fair price I will probably move ahead with the purchase so I can surprise my wife for our anniversary next year

@Tonks - keen to hear more about your experience. When the actual product is bigger than the target carat size, did you have to top up or did they honour the previous price? From the sound of it you did not have to top up which is a fantastic deal. Also if you dont mind, how much did you end up paying for the diamond just so i have a reference point.

Oh, gosh, if you want to hear more about my experience, I have two rather lengthy threads. I’m a bit of a researcher and wanted this to be a mind clean purchase.

This thread goes into how I decided on what to buy. Color preference, shape preference, size preference, etc. For a purchase of this magnitude, I wanted to get it right. Idk if you are planning to surprise your wife or if she is in on the upgrade. If she’s in on it, determining her color tolerance could be super helpful.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...journey-…-from-a-research-perspective.277780/

And this thread introduces my ring and talks about the custom cutting experience:

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...-vivian-the-custom-cut-4-2-i-vvs2-aca.278688/

WF guarantees a minimum on custom cuts, and no, I did not have to pay extra when my stone finished heavier and a clarity grade up. Free upgrade! However, WF’s policy on lifetime upgrades did change slightly last week, so please confirm all of the custom cut polices with your SA, because I would really hate to tell you wrong!

As to price, I am not going to disclose exactly what I paid, but rest assured we would not have proceeded were it not what we deemed fair. Yes, ACAs come at a premium over GIA triple ex, but I really appreciate the precision cutting and was more than willing to pay that premium.

Hope this helps!

 

[Slickk]

What a helpful post @Tonks and your ring is stunning!!
I wanted to point out that WF’s upgrade policy, which Tonks stated has changed slightly recently, is significant if I am reading correctly. I do not want to misinform, but since we bought an ACA in 2018 (I screenshot the upgrade page at that time), their lifetime upgrade policy does seem to have changed significantly imo.
Willing to share more, but do not want to derail OPs thread.
Can’t wait to see what you end up with this time @gordon86 because clearly you have exquisite taste.

 

[Mreader]

What a helpful post @Tonks and your ring is stunning!!
I wanted to point out that WF’s upgrade policy, which Tonks stated has changed slightly recently, is significant if I am reading correctly. I do not want to misinform, but since we bought an ACA in 2018 (I screenshot the upgrade page at that time), their lifetime upgrade policy does seem to have changed significantly imo.
Willing to share more, but do not want to derail OPs thread.
Can’t wait to see what you end up with this time @gordon86 because clearly you have exquisite taste.

That upgrade policy is such a change – I feel like a thread needs to be started specifically on that!! And I wonder if prior buyers are grandfathered in??

 

[DejaWiz]

That upgrade policy is such a change – I feel like a thread needs to be started specifically on that!! And I wonder if prior buyers are grandfathered in??

They are... Texas Leaguer stated in another post that the previous policy applies to buyers that purchased before the new policy went into effect.

 

[Slickk]

@DejaWiz that’s good news for some of us!! Thank you for sharing. So glad I took the screenshot for my records.

 

[marymm]

Until the vague references in this thread, I hadn't realized WF had changed their upgrade policy.

WF's prior upgrade policy allowed upgrade to a single stone of equal or greater value:



WF's current upgrade policy allows upgrade to a single natural stone of at least 50% higher value
https://www.whiteflash.com/confidence/lifetime-trade-up-guarantee/


IMHO the WF upgrade policy is still very good especially in comparison to other vendors, but not as generous or useful as it used to be.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Yes, all of us with WF ACAs will have the upgrade policy in effect at the time of purchase. But when you upgrade now, that new stone will be subject to the new policy. I don't really see it as being that much of a problem. To get a visible difference in size, color, and/or clarity, you'd probably be buying a stone that costs 50% more, especially if diamonds have increased in value over time. It's when diamond prices go up and then down that the former upgrade policy could make a vendor go under if enough people upgraded when prices went down. It's a smart move by WF, in my opinion. I'd like to see the company in business for the next generation or two.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

@gordon86

As some of us mentioned above, you are paying for 4+ ct rough to custom cut a high 3 ct diamond. James Allen actually had zero 4-4.1 ct F VS diamonds in ideal cut or higher. Blue Nile had two.

The cut on the FVS2 is far far away from the cut of an ACA:

4.01 Carat F-VS2 Excellent Cut Round Diamond

This 4.01 carat round diamond F color vs2 clarity has Excellent proportions and a diamond grading report from GIA

www.bluenile.com

And the 4 ct F VS1 is a little better cut than the first one, but as you can see, the price is $154,750 which is right in line with your quote from Whiteflash.

4.01 Carat F-VS1 Excellent Cut Round Diamond

This 4.01 carat round diamond F color vs1 clarity has Excellent proportions and a diamond grading report from GIA

www.bluenile.com

So basically, if you want to custom cut an F VS stone, you need to go to the low 4 ct range like @Tonks did since you'd be paying for 4 ct rough anyway to get a high 3 ct stone, or aim for around 3.2-3.4 cts and pay for 3+ ct rough.

 

[canuk-gal]

Oh, gosh, if you want to hear more about my experience, I have two rather lengthy threads. I’m a bit of a researcher and wanted this to be a mind clean purchase.

This thread goes into how I decided on what to buy. Color preference, shape preference, size preference, etc. For a purchase of this magnitude, I wanted to get it right. Idk if you are planning to surprise your wife or if she is in on the upgrade. If she’s in on it, determining her color tolerance could be super helpful.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...journey-…-from-a-research-perspective.277780/

And this thread introduces my ring and talks about the custom cutting experience:

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...-vivian-the-custom-cut-4-2-i-vvs2-aca.278688/

WF guarantees a minimum on custom cuts, and no, I did not have to pay extra when my stone finished heavier and a clarity grade up. Free upgrade! However, WF’s policy on lifetime upgrades did change slightly last week, so please confirm all of the custom cut polices with your SA, because I would really hate to tell you wrong!

As to price, I am not going to disclose exactly what I paid, but rest assured we would not have proceeded were it not what we deemed fair. Yes, ACAs come at a premium over GIA triple ex, but I really appreciate the precision cutting and was more than willing to pay that premium.

Hope this helps!

@Tonks I encourage you to post your valuable threads in the helpful threads archive

 

[gordon86]

@diamondseeker2006 thanks for this input its very clear for me

@Tonks thanks for sharing the story! Was a great read and helped in my decision too! I now have a clearer view of the process and also what to ask for

Thanks all for the great inputs and I really appreciate it