Some interesting things from AGS class

[Paul-Antwerp]

Hey Wink,

Thank you for that amazing information, and the clear way in which you are presenting it. I prefered to digest it first, before reacting. Then again, you probably already know me that way.

One interesting observation from your first post, in which you an example of the metric for dispersion:

Did anyone notice the relative intense dispersion in the Tolkowsky, coming out of the table-area? Most people generally associate high and steeper crowns with dispersion, while the table-area is regarded as a non-factor in this.

Is this yet again another part of the old gemology-manual, which we can throw out of the window?

Live long,

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 2/27/2006 6:37:34 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Hey Wink,

Thank you for that amazing information, and the clear way in which you are presenting it. I prefered to digest it first, before reacting. Then again, you probably already know me that way.

One interesting observation from your first post, in which you an example of the metric for dispersion:

Did anyone notice the relative intense dispersion in the Tolkowsky, coming out of the table-area? Most people generally associate high and steeper crowns with dispersion, while the table-area is regarded as a non-factor in this.

Is this yet again another part of the old gemology-manual, which we can throw out of the window?

Live long,

Paul.. I think you might be somewhat misinterpreting the fire pictures, as I believe that they represent the areas where the most intense potential for fire is emmanating from the diamond, not necessariily what CAUSES the fire or dispersion.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/27/2006 2:22:43 AM
Author: RockDoc

Date: 2/26/2006 9:53:12 PM
Author: adamasgem

Date: 2/26/2006 9:04:00 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

I would like to second Winks comments here Bill and Dave.

An accurate 3D model carries all the data you use in BrayScorces Bill - but puts it into a visual pixel counter.
I am not 100% happy with pixel counting per se'' because it does not have a humanpattern perceptor built in - the conrast calculator in DiamCalc for instance does not match my preference for contrast (yet).

But your protests Bill are not really valid because every symmetry defect is there - just as every positive benefit from any symmetry defect is also there in the accurately scanned data. And this is a new can of worms - that certain types of symetry ''defects'' - especially in larger rounds - can improve a tones appearance.

I don''t know if you confuse people by keeping on bringing up that issue about more facets on larger stones, Gary. You may be right but it is a surperfluous issue within the normal sizes of stones people buy.

I''ve held the Eightstar 13ct D FL(or IF?) American Star more than once, and it looks pretty damn good to me with 58 facets. Of couse GIA, in their infinate wisdom with cut grades, probably only gave it a good or very good. You should see it sometime, and you might have second thoughts about your statement.

Gee, Marty -

It must be pretty darn cold there in Boston! The 13 carat just looks ''pretty damn good'' ????? ( Marty''s being is ''cold'' analytical self folks).

That diamond is just about better than sex! I seen it and held it (and just about drooled all over it). I can''t think of too many stones I''ve held and seen that are that are as amazing as that one. It certainly would qualifiy with the status of ''Ultimate Pet Rock'' im my book.

Just being my usual humorous self. No insult intended.

Rockdoc

Rule #1 from the Guide to Successful Manhood (101)
Diamonds are for getting Sex, not a replacement medium.

Marty i am sure you would agrree that above 10ct many cuts that we would poo-hoo - like rariants etc - come alive with a life of their own in bigger sizes.

I will be in HK fair next week and will have an opportunity to get up close and personal with many large diamonds at one of the Asian big rock candy specialists. Each booth window has a different type of cut - mostly 2ct to 30ct range. There are about 7 0r 8 windows.

BTW it is spring here in Mumbai - 36C the other day - I guess that is about 98F?

Paul

 

[He Scores]

RE: 10 ct. D Flawless.


Here is yet another blatent example of where the cutters in this industry get no respect.

This stone should be named after the guy who put his swet and soul into the cutting. A feat relatively few people on earth could do.

You heard it here first. That stone should be renamed "The Star Lindsay".


Bill Bray
Diamond Cutter

 

[WinkHPD]

Let''s see, I have just invested a TON of money and I can call the creation the American Star and tout it legitimately as the most incredible cut diamond in the world, and maybe sell it for a couple of million dollars, or I can call it the Star Lindsay and possibly own it forever... Hmmm, what shall I do??

Like it or not, it does take some sizzle to market these treasures. I too have held the diamond, and if I had the money it might now be the American Star of Collection de Wink.

Wink

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/25/2006 8:43:41 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

...But it is predictive of a a physical response and like all things to do with human taste and preferences - it should be tested against a wide range of humans in appropriate lighting. This type of testing could be conducted for a few million dollars and a group I work with thinks this is essential and should be done - but we do not have the funds. it would solve Imagem, Bscope, AGS and GIA type cut debates - and it would provide better ways for the cutting creativity we need to ween us off our addiction to a hand ful of cuts...

I don''t know that we''ll ever solve the debates but a good representative sample would prove useful. That sample would need to be large enough, and would need to qualify as a true population; varied in age/occupation/gender/ethnicity/culture, etc... As you say, millions of dollars to do correctly (and without being made up predominantly of trade people).

At some level taste is taste. I prefer a 2002 Far Niente Cab over a 2002 Stag''s Leap, and won''t get into fisticuffs with someone who goes the other way, but I do trust Wine Spectator to point me in some good directions.

 

[He Scores]

Date: 2/27/2006 10:54:06 AM
Author: Wink
Let''s see, I have just invested a TON of money and I can call the creation the American Star and tout it legitimately as the most incredible cut diamond in the world, and maybe sell it for a couple of million dollars, or I can call it the Star Lindsay and possibly own it forever... Hmmm, what shall I do??

Like it or not, it does take some sizzle to market these treasures. I too have held the diamond, and if I had the money it might now be the American Star of Collection de Wink.

Wink

Wink.

If you invested a TON of money into a Monet painting what do you do then?

The great painters were paid to do their work but still got the recognition. This is lost in today''s diamond business UNFORTUNATELY.

Don''t any of you think that if you created something as spectacular as "The Star Lindsay" you should be able to command more for your labor from then on? Don''t you think you should get some recognition?

Like I said. No respect for the cutter''s.

Some oil sheik could buy that stone with the thousands of others he has like it and call it "Oil Slick III". After all...he''s the one who invested in it.

Do you really think this is the way it should be?

At least the Aschers got credit for the Cullinan.

Next thread. I''m through.


Bill Bray
Diamond Cutter

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/26/2006 9:04:00 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

...But your protests Bill are not really valid because every symmetry defect is there - just as every positive benefit from any symmetry defect is also there in the accurately scanned data. And this is a new can of worms - that certain types of symetry 'defects' - especially in larger rounds - can improve a stones appearance.

Hey Garry, can we use the term symmetry 'deviation' instead of defect? This may be a tomAYto, tomAHto thing

, but you have a point here & defect sounds like a problem - where it might not be.

In fairness, symmetry studies should be bipolar. The thousands of people who are attracted to supersymmetry when compared with avg symmetry side by side can't be wrong. It's also noted that certain types of deviations from symmetry can improve appearance. There is no doubt optical symmetry and symmetry deviations (whether planned or not) merit further study.

Accurate 3D scans and direct performance assessment are the only ways to track differences, because a simple proportions-based system does not account for either.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/27/2006 2:09:07 AM
Author: RockDoc

This is off the topic here a bit, Just Looking, but since you''re a student of music, I''ll give you a little heads up for diamonds, patterns and music.

Gabi Tolkowlksky, the diamond cutter of legendary fame, has been involved with Gemprint Corp. Gemprint captures the specific and unique light patterns refracted by a diamond and captures this image digitally to its software system. A few years ago, each unique pattern was introduced to music software, with Gabi using software scoring programs, to ''translate'' these unique light patterns with music scoring programs so that each diamond could ''sing it''s own unique ''song'' '',

When this project started I was asked to assist in it, but being a ''compu-grape'' I really didn''t have the knowledge to help using Finale or Cakewalk to accomplish this. I do have a knowledge of music however, and do play keyboards.

I will try to get more information on this as Gabi is coming to the meeting we are talking about in April I believe.

Rockdoc

Wow. I''d like to hear more about that. I was a Finale beta tester and continue to use it - and Sibelius. Was he importing the scans and converting different attributes to midi channels in a designed template? Or was the physical gemprint printout actually scanned in using Nightingale or a similar reader? I have a hard time understanding how the data would reconcile itself without resembling whale song or white noise - but that''s the beauty of music... Sometimes lack or structure can be as beautiful as perfect theoretical composition.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/27/2006 11:11:25 AM
Author: He Scores

Date: 2/27/2006 10:54:06 AM
Author: Wink
Let''s see, I have just invested a TON of money and I can call the creation the American Star and tout it legitimately as the most incredible cut diamond in the world, and maybe sell it for a couple of million dollars, or I can call it the Star Lindsay and possibly own it forever... Hmmm, what shall I do??

Like it or not, it does take some sizzle to market these treasures. I too have held the diamond, and if I had the money it might now be the American Star of Collection de Wink.

Wink

Wink.

If you invested a TON of money into a Monet painting what do you do then?

The great painters were paid to do their work but still got the recognition. This is lost in today''s diamond business UNFORTUNATELY.

Don''t any of you think that if you created something as spectacular as ''The Star Lindsay'' you should be able to command more for your labor from then on? Don''t you think you should get some recognition?

Like I said. No respect for the cutter''s.

Some oil sheik could buy that stone with the thousands of others he has like it and call it ''Oil Slick III''. After all...he''s the one who invested in it.

Do you really think this is the way it should be?

At least the Aschers got credit for the Cullinan.

Next thread. I''m through.


Bill Bray
Diamond Cutter

Bill,

I absolutely believe that the cutter should get full credit for a masterpiece, I am not sure that credit extends to having the stone named after them.

I think they do get a lot more credit from within the trade than without, which may be unfortunate, but it seems to be the norm. Perhaps it is because many cutters are happy working behind the scenes, although a few like Gaby Tolkowsky have created great public persona''s.

Personally I like when a cutter gets credit, I think that is the way it should be. Does that credit include naming the stone after them? Of this I am not sure...

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

I received an email last night letting me know that John Quixote has posted the entire cut analysis presentation from AGS at last years Vegas show.

It has the answers to my two which is better questions too, so posting them here will not affect anyone''s guesses.

It can be seen at http://knowledge.whiteflash.com/Q10281.aspx.

By the way, we mentioned 30 blue and 40 blue. Here is a slide, also from the AGS presentation given at last week''s seminar that shows some face up photos of diamonds with their 30 and 40 blue pictures. I have circled on of the little "clown hats" that become visible in some stones at the 40 blue. What you do not want is the large "paddles" as seen in stone #3.

If I remember correctly the # on each stone is the AGS light performance grade, but I am not positive about this.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

P.S. I believe the "clown hats" moniker came from Jim Caudill, but I am not positive.

 

[RockDoc]

Rule #1 from the Guide to Successful Manhood (101)
Diamonds are for getting Sex, not a replacement medium.



Welll, Garry if you have to give a 13 carat D-FL to get sex, that would be some pretty expensive sex. [$$)]

Besides PET ROCKS are ALWAYS in the Mood! And, they last longer too


Rockdoc

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 2/27/2006 11:29:02 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 2/27/2006 2:09:07 AM
Author: RockDoc

This is off the topic here a bit, Just Looking, but since you''re a student of music, I''ll give you a little heads up for diamonds, patterns and music.

Gabi Tolkowlksky, the diamond cutter of legendary fame, has been involved with Gemprint Corp. Gemprint captures the specific and unique light patterns refracted by a diamond and captures this image digitally to its software system. A few years ago, each unique pattern was introduced to music software, with Gabi using software scoring programs, to ''translate'' these unique light patterns with music scoring programs so that each diamond could ''sing it''s own unique ''song'' '',

When this project started I was asked to assist in it, but being a ''compu-grape'' I really didn''t have the knowledge to help using Finale or Cakewalk to accomplish this. I do have a knowledge of music however, and do play keyboards.

I will try to get more information on this as Gabi is coming to the meeting we are talking about in April I believe.

Rockdoc

Wow. I''d like to hear more about that. I was a Finale beta tester and continue to use it - and Sibelius. Was he importing the scans and converting different attributes to midi channels in a designed template? Or was the physical gemprint printout actually scanned in using Nightingale or a similar reader? I have a hard time understanding how the data would reconcile itself without resembling whale song or white noise - but that''s the beauty of music... Sometimes lack or structure can be as beautiful as perfect theoretical composition.

I have the Finale program, as well as cakewalk.. Still being in Compu-Grape mode, needless to say I haven''t been able to get either to work.

I did get my keyboard hooked up to it, and tried to score something I played but the program wouldn''t write the notes as fast as I played them... Think its fairly accurate for 32nd notes, but beyond that it sort of took a dump on me.

I''ll see what I can find out about what they did, or ask Gabi about it at conclave.

Rockdoc

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 2/27/2006 12:31:30 PM
Author: RockDoc

Date: 2/27/2006 11:29:02 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 2/27/2006 2:09:07 AM
Author: RockDoc

This is off the topic here a bit, Just Looking, but since you''re a student of music, I''ll give you a little heads up for diamonds, patterns and music.

Gabi Tolkowlksky, the diamond cutter of legendary fame, has been involved with Gemprint Corp. Gemprint captures the specific and unique light patterns refracted by a diamond and captures this image digitally to its software system. A few years ago, each unique pattern was introduced to music software, with Gabi using software scoring programs, to ''translate'' these unique light patterns with music scoring programs so that each diamond could ''sing it''s own unique ''song'' '',

When this project started I was asked to assist in it, but being a ''compu-grape'' I really didn''t have the knowledge to help using Finale or Cakewalk to accomplish this. I do have a knowledge of music however, and do play keyboards.

I will try to get more information on this as Gabi is coming to the meeting we are talking about in April I believe.

Rockdoc

Wow. I''d like to hear more about that. I was a Finale beta tester and continue to use it - and Sibelius. Was he importing the scans and converting different attributes to midi channels in a designed template? Or was the physical gemprint printout actually scanned in using Nightingale or a similar reader? I have a hard time understanding how the data would reconcile itself without resembling whale song or white noise - but that''s the beauty of music... Sometimes lack or structure can be as beautiful as perfect theoretical composition.

I have the Finale program, as well as cakewalk.. Still being in Compu-Grape mode, needless to say I haven''t been able to get either to work.

I did get my keyboard hooked up to it, and tried to score something I played but the program wouldn''t write the notes as fast as I played them... Think its fairly accurate for 32nd notes, but beyond that it sort of took a dump on me.

I''ll see what I can find out about what they did, or ask Gabi about it at conclave.

Rockdoc

It is all covered in the legalese of issued US Patent 6,683,680 http://www.uspto.gov

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/27/2006 12:25:06 PM
Author: RockDoc

Rule #1 from the Guide to Successful Manhood (101)
Diamonds are for getting Sex, not a replacement medium.



Welll, Garry if you have to give a 13 carat D-FL to get sex, that would be some pretty expensive sex. [$$)]

Besides PET ROCKS are ALWAYS in the Mood! And, they last longer too <G>


Rockdoc

Not if it was often enough over 50 years

John I am quite happy to accept the title of namer of the term "Deviant"

 

[RockDoc]

RE; Often enough over 50 Years????

If I remember that stone is 1.5 million.

Divided over 50 years, that''s about $ 30,000 per year. Then add 5% a year interest on the money....

hmmmmm..

Rockdoc

 

[WinkHPD]

Roc, your memory is way low on that gem, but that is for a different thread.

Wink

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 2/27/2006 11:29:02 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 2/27/2006 2:09:07 AM
Author: RockDoc

This is off the topic here a bit, Just Looking, but since you''re a student of music, I''ll give you a little heads up for diamonds, patterns and music.

Gabi Tolkowlksky, the diamond cutter of legendary fame, has been involved with Gemprint Corp. Gemprint captures the specific and unique light patterns refracted by a diamond and captures this image digitally to its software system. A few years ago, each unique pattern was introduced to music software, with Gabi using software scoring programs, to ''translate'' these unique light patterns with music scoring programs so that each diamond could ''sing it''s own unique ''song'' '',

When this project started I was asked to assist in it, but being a ''compu-grape'' I really didn''t have the knowledge to help using Finale or Cakewalk to accomplish this. I do have a knowledge of music however, and do play keyboards.

I will try to get more information on this as Gabi is coming to the meeting we are talking about in April I believe.

Rockdoc

Wow. I''d like to hear more about that. I was a Finale beta tester and continue to use it - and Sibelius. Was he importing the scans and converting different attributes to midi channels in a designed template? Or was the physical gemprint printout actually scanned in using Nightingale or a similar reader? I have a hard time understanding how the data would reconcile itself without resembling whale song or white noise - but that''s the beauty of music... Sometimes lack or structure can be as beautiful as perfect theoretical composition.

Hey John,

If you wish, I will send you a CD of one of our next stones. They all receive a Gemprint, and it is no problem to record the music for you. What do you prefer, a round or a princess?

Live long,

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/27/2006 3:30:21 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Hey John,

If you wish, I will send you a CD of one of our next stones. They all receive a Gemprint, and it is no problem to record the music for you. What do you prefer, a round or a princess?

Live long,

Wow. Listening to a ''Stones CD takes on a whole new meaning.

You know me, Paul: Send one of each. ...How appropriate that I kept my Infinity loudspeakers.

 

[WinkHPD]

My password and registration numbers for the Diamcalc have arrive, now I have to curl up with my computer and learn to use it. See you in a few days!

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

Wink,
are ags0 trillant topaz next??????????
hehehehe

 

[WinkHPD]

Could use a little more contrast, but maybe the leakage would provide that. I bet that is a NICE looking stone!

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/27/2006 11:45:39 AM
Author: Wink
By the way, we mentioned 30 blue and 40 blue. Here is a slide, also from the AGS presentation given at last week''s seminar that shows some face up photos of diamonds with their 30 and 40 blue pictures. I have circled on of the little ''clown hats'' that become visible in some stones at the 40 blue. What you do not want is the large ''paddles'' as seen in stone #3.

If I remember correctly the # on each stone is the AGS light performance grade, but I am not positive about this.

Wink

The advantage to saying "if I remember correctly" is that when I screw up I can pass on the correct information and look only slightly feeble minded. I received the following comment from Peter Yantzer this morning.

The image with 5 stones that you posted on Pricescope are Tolkowsky’s 5 stones in his book, Diamond Design. Two of them had 47% tables. The center stone - #3 had a 61% table. As you can see, it doesn’t handle a large amount of obscuration very well. The numbers above each image are not AGS grades.

Sorry about the wrong information, but this is more interesting anyway, examples from The Master himself.

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

One of the really interesting things about the ASET is the ability to produce a model of the stone in DiamCalc using Sarin generated data and actually see this image in the ASET tool. If you don’t get too buried in the minutia of the images, the similarities are striking. Here’s two stones, one decent, one excellent that I imaged through both methods. With the exception of the green/red borderline, the two images are remarkably similar. The patterning in the blue is sufficient to have a decent chance of recognizing the particular stone given this image and it’s immediately clear both that stone 1 is better than stone 2 and even what some of the specific problems are with stone 2 (shallow crown, big table, poor contrast). Handy.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 2/28/2006 1:45:30 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 2/27/2006 11:45:39 AM
Author: Wink
By the way, we mentioned 30 blue and 40 blue. Here is a slide, also from the AGS presentation given at last week's seminar that shows some face up photos of diamonds with their 30 and 40 blue pictures. I have circled on of the little 'clown hats' that become visible in some stones at the 40 blue. What you do not want is the large 'paddles' as seen in stone #3.

If I remember correctly the # on each stone is the AGS light performance grade, but I am not positive about this.

Wink

The advantage to saying 'if I remember correctly' is that when I screw up I can pass on the correct information and look only slightly feeble minded. I received the following comment from Peter Yantzer this morning.

The image with 5 stones that you posted on Pricescope are Tolkowsky’s 5 stones in his book, Diamond Design. Two of them had 47% tables. The center stone - #3 had a 61% table. As you can see, it doesn’t handle a large amount of obscuration very well. The numbers above each image are not AGS grades.

Sorry about the wrong information, but this is more interesting anyway, examples from The Master himself.

Wink

If you want the info from Diamond Design, there is a link from my web site to Jasper Paulsen's analysis and the complete work , or go directly to

http://www.folds.net/diamond/index.html

The cuts can be found Table 1 of Tolkowky's monograph, primarily
Table I
Dia 1 Dia 2 Dia 3 Dia 4 Dia 5
alpha 40¾° 40¾° 40° 41° 41°
beta 35° 35° 34½° 33° 34°
A B 7.00 7.08 6.50 21.07 9.12
M C 4.12 4.35 3.61 12.34 5.47
M M' 1.08 1.32 0.85 3.31 1.61

 

[RockDoc]

Hi Paul


What do you need if you have the gemprint file to "record" its music?

Software?

Rockdoc

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/28/2006 4:43:42 PM
Author: adamasgem

Date: 2/28/2006 1:45:30 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 2/27/2006 11:45:39 AM
Author: Wink
By the way, we mentioned 30 blue and 40 blue. Here is a slide, also from the AGS presentation given at last week''s seminar that shows some face up photos of diamonds with their 30 and 40 blue pictures. I have circled on of the little ''clown hats'' that become visible in some stones at the 40 blue. What you do not want is the large ''paddles'' as seen in stone #3.

If I remember correctly the # on each stone is the AGS light performance grade, but I am not positive about this.

Wink

The advantage to saying ''if I remember correctly'' is that when I screw up I can pass on the correct information and look only slightly feeble minded. I received the following comment from Peter Yantzer this morning.

The image with 5 stones that you posted on Pricescope are Tolkowsky’s 5 stones in his book, Diamond Design. Two of them had 47% tables. The center stone - #3 had a 61% table. As you can see, it doesn’t handle a large amount of obscuration very well. The numbers above each image are not AGS grades.

Sorry about the wrong information, but this is more interesting anyway, examples from The Master himself.

Wink

If you want the info from Diamond Design, there is a link from my web site to Jasper Paulsen''s analysis and the complete work , or go directly to

http://www.folds.net/diamond/index.html

The cuts can be found Table 1 of Tolkowky''s monograph, primarily
Table I

Dia 1 Dia 2 Dia 3 Dia 4 Dia 5
alpha 40¾° 40¾° 40° 41° 41°
beta 35° 35° 34½° 33° 34°
A B 7.00 7.08 6.50 21.07 9.12
M C 4.12 4.35 3.61 12.34 5.47
M M'' 1.08 1.32 0.85 3.31 1.61

Thanks Marty!

 

[WinkHPD]

Neil,

Thanks for the photos, especially for the comparrison to the real deal with the actual. Are those taken with the hand held or the table top? If the table top I spoke with Jim about the glare from the light. If you put a donut of tranlucent paper around the black cup you will cut down the glare without depriving the stone of the light needed to form a good image. I have not had a chance to get out to buy any translucent paper, but when I cup my hands around the stone it makes a HUGE difference in the glare. (It also cuts out too much light to allow a good photo...)

Wink