Sapphire ring prices - your thoughts please...

[bzimpf]

Hi -

Looking at the following rings and wondering your thoughts on the pricing - Is it inline with the value?

Anyone purchased from this vendor before?

Many thanks!

http://www.newyorkestatejewelry.com/rings/1.52ct-ceylon-sapphire-&-diamond-14k-white-gold-ring/13269/1/item

http://www.newyorkestatejewelry.com/rings/edwardian-style-1.75ct-ceylon-sapphire-&-diamond-18k-white-gold-ring/11191/1/item

http://www.newyorkestatejewelry.com/rings/art-deco-2.50ct-sapphire-diamond-18k-white-gold-ring/16586/1/item

 

[minousbijoux]

I couldn't see anywhere on the page where it told you anything about the sapphire. Without knowing its treatment and clarity, its hard to provide you with feedback. I only looked at the first one, but my preference would be for a more saturated, lighter stone as that one looks fairly dark with a grey mask.

 

[minousbijoux]

Oh and full disclosure: I know nothing about diamonds or their relative cost. For all I know, that ring is a bargain due to the diamonds, but I doubt it...

 

[chloeishere]

The concern I have with vintage sapphire rings, especially from that period, is that synthetic sapphires were still relatively new and were used in fine jewelry. The lack of reports or comments on the status of the sapphire makes me wonder if they are synthetic.

I think if they were natural, unheated sapphires it would probably be a good deal, but I am almost positive they would not be unheated (and I would be concerned, like I said, that they aren't natural, as well).

 

[bzimpf]

These are not vintage rings. The sapphires would be treated altough not synthetic per the vendor terms:

Any ruby, sapphire or emerald sold by NewYorkEstateJewelry.com, is sold under the assumption that such precious stone has undergone some type of clarity or color enhancement unless it is sold accompanied with a certificate from a gemological laboratory stating otherwise.

Treated is not a problem for us.

Duplicating the simple 3 stone ring on Natural Sapphire site costs ~$7k.

 

[LD]

To work out if you're paying a fair price you need to remove the sapphire from the equation. If it's Be diffused or treated in any way to improve its colour ie filling etc., it's not worth much. So, in essence, you're paying for the metal and the accent diamonds. If these are highly treated sapphires the price is way too high.

 

[iLander]

These are not vintage rings. The sapphires would be treated altough not synthetic per the vendor terms:

Any ruby, sapphire or emerald sold by NewYorkEstateJewelry.com, is sold under the assumption that such precious stone has undergone some type of clarity or color enhancement unless it is sold accompanied with a certificate from a gemological laboratory stating otherwise.

Treated is not a problem for us.

Duplicating the simple 3 stone ring on Natural Sapphire site costs ~$7k.

If it's beryllium treated,it might as well be a beach pebble IMHO. There are tons of beryllium treated sapphires on ebay for under $5 each.

Just because they dress it up with diamonds doesn't make it a decent stone. It's like lipstick on a pig, to my taste.

But some people don't mind treatments, and I think the vast majority of the general public doesn't care,so to each his own.

 

[T L]

These are not vintage rings. The sapphires would be treated altough not synthetic per the vendor terms:

Any ruby, sapphire or emerald sold by NewYorkEstateJewelry.com, is sold under the assumption that such precious stone has undergone some type of clarity or color enhancement unless it is sold accompanied with a certificate from a gemological laboratory stating otherwise.

Treated is not a problem for us.

Duplicating the simple 3 stone ring on Natural Sapphire site costs ~$7k.

If it's beryllium treated,it might as well be a beach pebble IMHO. There are tons of beryllium treated sapphires on ebay for under $5 each.

Just because they dress it up with diamonds doesn't make it a decent stone. It's like lipstick on a pig, to my taste.

But some people don't mind treatments, and I think the vast majority of the general public doesn't care,so to each his own.

That's because the vast majority of the public doesn't know what they're getting.

 

[iLander]

These are not vintage rings. The sapphires would be treated altough not synthetic per the vendor terms:

Any ruby, sapphire or emerald sold by NewYorkEstateJewelry.com, is sold under the assumption that such precious stone has undergone some type of clarity or color enhancement unless it is sold accompanied with a certificate from a gemological laboratory stating otherwise.

Treated is not a problem for us.

Duplicating the simple 3 stone ring on Natural Sapphire site costs ~$7k.

If it's beryllium treated,it might as well be a beach pebble IMHO. There are tons of beryllium treated sapphires on ebay for under $5 each.

Just because they dress it up with diamonds doesn't make it a decent stone. It's like lipstick on a pig, to my taste.

But some people don't mind treatments, and I think the vast majority of the general public doesn't care,so to each his own.

That's because the vast majority of the public doesn't know what they're getting.

Absolutely true.

 

[bzimpf]

Perhaps you could advise on where exactly one can be assured on not buying a beach pebble?

 

[chrono]

Here is a list of recommended vendors:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/can-we-start-a-new-thread-with-respected-cs-vendors.169561/page-2']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/can-we-start-a-new-thread-with-respected-cs-vendors.169561/page-2[/URL]

Some have a lot of sapphires and some only carry them occasionally. Like everyone else, some stones are very nice and some are quite ordinary, priced to fit various budgets. All are trustworthy though.

 

[bzimpf]

I like this one from gemfix - 2.75 cts - certified untreated VVS clarity.

Not the traditional but I like the color of the Montanas.

Not really familiar with the portugese cut but likey -

Thoughts

 

[chrono]

Does this Montana sapphire make your heart beat faster? If not, then I'd keep looking. It has quite a bit of gray and I don't exactly know what you are looking for, nor your budget or size wish. It is very well cut though. The busier Portuguese cutting will give it a lot of flash and brilliance. If you really like the stone, ask about how it performs under different lighting (outdoors sun and indoor flourescents)

 

[Pandora II]

If you like one of the rings you posted (and they look pretty to me) then you can always have them sent to a lab to have them checked.

IMO, a lot of people on PS get a tad hysterical about every stone potentially being Be-diffused. Unheated stones are rare, but there are many, many heat-only stones on the market.

I don't recall ANYONE on here sending a stone off and it coming back as Be diffused. There was the pad that came back as synthetic but that's the only negative anomaly I recall.

 

[chrono]

Pandora,
I believe there's no such case because if I recall correctly, just about all sapphires purchased have been through trusted and recommended vendors who know their sources quite well and stand behind their inventory. Stones that are very bright and inexpensive (and usually from eBay) are usually suspected to be treated and thus avoided with a 10 foot pole.

 

[Pandora II]

Pandora,
I believe there's no such case because if I recall correctly, just about all sapphires purchased have been through trusted and recommended vendors who know their sources quite well and stand behind their inventory. Stones that are very bright and inexpensive (and usually from eBay) are usually suspected to be treated and thus avoided with a 10 foot pole.

But that is half the thing Chrono, even if the stones are coming from these vendors people are still recommending getting expensive lab reports.

I totally understand getting a report on a $ multiple k stone, or an e-ring stone, but many people will be put off buying a smaller or cheaper stone because they feel they need to invest a significant percentage of the price in getting these reports. It's good to be informed and aware of these things, but I think there is such a thing as worrying for nothing (unless you are getting a 3ct Kashmir for $100 on ebay!)

There are many indicators to show that a stone has only been subjected to low heat - personally I would trust most reputable dealers to have checked their inventory.

 

[chrono]

Ditto; I wouldn't sweat it on a smaller/less expensive stone and with the right equipment and skill, diffusion can be ruled out on most heated sapphires.

 

[minousbijoux]

Pandora, I had an almost 3 ct padparadscha that came back as diffused - I wrote about it here about a year or two. The stone had a cert from an Asian lab that said it was heat only. I can't remember which lab now, only that it wasn't AIGS or GIA, and it wasn't SLP either. I think I knew at the time that the lab did not have the ability to test for diffusion. I had asked the vendor, who assured me that it wasn't diffused so we made the purchase contingent upon a clean bill of health from GIA Carlsbad. It came back as diffused and the vendor honored the deal.

I thought you'd be interested to know.

 

[T L]

Pandora,
I believe there's no such case because if I recall correctly, just about all sapphires purchased have been through trusted and recommended vendors who know their sources quite well and stand behind their inventory. Stones that are very bright and inexpensive (and usually from eBay) are usually suspected to be treated and thus avoided with a 10 foot pole.

But that is half the thing Chrono, even if the stones are coming from these vendors people are still recommending getting expensive lab reports.

I totally understand getting a report on a $ multiple k stone, or an e-ring stone, but many people will be put off buying a smaller or cheaper stone because they feel they need to invest a significant percentage of the price in getting these reports. It's good to be informed and aware of these things, but I think there is such a thing as worrying for nothing (unless you are getting a 3ct Kashmir for $100 on ebay!)

There are many indicators to show that a stone has only been subjected to low heat - personally I would trust most reputable dealers to have checked their inventory.

I think its a matter of what people feel comfortable with. I wouldn't suggest getting a lab report on an inexpensive sapphire, but for some people, it's not the matter of money, but its a "mind clean" thing as well, so that is why I bring up lab reports quite a bit. As for trusting vendors, I think a lot of vendors can be duped by their sources, no matter how trustworthy the vendor is, so that is something to consider as well.

Corundum falls into a special category of not only having a myriad of treatment, but some treatments are impossible to detect with standard diagnostic evaluation. There are also convincing synthetics as well, so one must be careful if purchasing a sapphire and they want a natural untreated or heat only stone. Other gems, where treatment isn't so prevalent, is not a big deal, like faceted chrysoberyl or spinels with obvious natural inclusions.

 

[minousbijoux]

I 100% agree with TL's post. It was thanks to the worries about sapphires written here (thanks to many of you!) that I even thought to work out the deal. I am glad I did. Perhaps because of my experience, I totally agree with TL's concerns regarding buying expensive sapphires on line without lab reports. I also agree that its not cost effective to do it for less valuable stones. For example, I have a number of unheated or heat only blue sapphires I bought from Tan that I didn't bother to test. I'm counting on his comfort level with his sources and his reputation on this board. I also know it wouldn't kill me if they turned out to be treated.

 

[chrono]

Was it LTP or someone else on the board who was also shopping for padparadschas and it turned out to be diffused? Or was that you, Minousbijoux? I thought in that case, the person kept the stone anyway because she really liked it and worked out a lower price or something like that. I think this was years ago because my memory of it is fuzzy but the posting of your experience helped me to recall it. When it comes to very rare and expensive stones like padparadschas, I would probably have it tested no matter what because of the prevalence of diffusion and synthetics.

 

[minousbijoux]

It sounds like there were a few cases of it on the boards. But I agree - I am really leery of padparadschas as a result. And it makes sense due to the rarity factor that treatments of these stones might be more frequent. The others I would watch out for is that bright yellow (sometimes almost saffron color) and that really bright, almost neon, blue.

 

[T L]

Was it LTP or someone else on the board who was also shopping for padparadschas and it turned out to be diffused? Or was that you, Minousbijoux? I thought in that case, the person kept the stone anyway because she really liked it and worked out a lower price or something like that. I think this was years ago because my memory of it is fuzzy but the posting of your experience helped me to recall it. When it comes to very rare and expensive stones like padparadschas, I would probably have it tested no matter what because of the prevalence of diffusion and synthetics.

Actually, I remember that well. LTP was preparing to purchase a padparadscha from the same source that this one "rich lady" who had several huge and expensive looking padparadschas obtained hers from. LTP sent it off for testing, and it came back as diffused. She ended up getting the stone for free, but the "rich lady" probably had already spent a fortune on several be-diffused gems. LTP can correct me if she thinks this story is wrong. She hasn't posted much lately here, so that's why I want to bring up what I remember. We also know that Tgal bought a padparadscha from a high end reputable vendor, and it was synthetic based on the lab report, to which the vendor made amends for. His source sold him that stone, and I think an important lesson was learned there, that even reputable vendors can be duped.

Now I heard there's a new bunch of diffused material coming out of Australia (dark blue sapphires) being be-diffused to beautiful colors, and that is also worrisome. Therefore, as Pandora suggested, one should not have to get a lab report on an inexpensive stone, but if you want a "mind clean" stone, or you're spending a great deal, I think we all agree that a reputable lab report (preferably AGL) would be in order. You know, if I see a very silky stone, or one with intact rutile, I don't lose sleep over that kind of stone. It's the cleaner, more crystal blue sapphires that have me worried.

 

[T L]

It sounds like there were a few cases of it on the boards. But I agree - I am really leery of padparadschas as a result. And it makes sense due to the rarity factor that treatments of these stones might be more frequent. The others I would watch out for is that bright yellow (sometimes almost saffron color) and that really bright, almost neon, blue.

I've seen greyish blue sapphires that were also diffused too. If we could rule out diffusion simply by color, that would be nice, but we can't.

Here's a particularly unattractive, dark greyish blue sapphire, that is be-treated (disclosed). I find it rather expensive too, but at least it's disclosed. There's a lot of examples of greyish blue sapphires on this site that are be-treated.

http://www.gemselect.com/sapphire/sapphire-315907.php

 

[Pandora II]

As I said in another thread today with any yellow or orange sapphire to assume diffusion unless otherwise proven.

I was talking more about blue sapphires as they are the most common.

Here in Europe it's a lot more expensive to have stones tested - around $400 plus shipping for Gubelin and around $800 plus shipping for SSEF and often you need to use someone in the trade to access the drop-shippers.

 

[minousbijoux]

Wow. One can only wonder what it looked like before treatment...

 

[T L]

As I said in another thread today with any yellow or orange sapphire to assume diffusion unless otherwise proven.

I was talking more about blue sapphires as they are the most common.

Here in Europe it's a lot more expensive to have stones tested - around $400 plus shipping for Gubelin and around $800 plus shipping for SSEF and often you need to use someone in the trade to access the drop-shippers.

That's crazy pricing. AGL charges $100 for an LA-ICP-MS test, in addition to the standard fast track memo (which is also reasonable). If you want a prestige report, it's a lot more money of course.

 

[Pandora II]

Yes it is, and a couple of people in the trade here have mentioned to me that they've had clients asking for lab reports from prestigious labs for not super-expensive stones.

When they hear what it will cost them - plus the hassle of documents for customs and the impossibility of getting insurance to ship - or even getting a company who will ship, they quickly decide otherwise.

 

[LD]

If I were buying a blue sapphire I would most definitely be worried about diffusion because the majority are diffused nowadays. It used to be limited to yellows and padparadscha coloured sapphires but diffusion lightens dark blues to an acceptable blue and then there's always filling and dyeing to be concerned about.

If I were buying a ring for almost $5k if the metal weight and diamond cost didn't equate to almost $5k I would want to have the sapphire checked. If the sapphire was minimal cost once I'd taken into account the other costs, I wouldn't be worried too much and would assume all sorts of nasties.

My stance is "assume high level of treatment that devalues the gem significantly" until proven otherwise!

Of course if the OP doesn't care about treatments then that's a completely different story but I do think if somebody comes onto a forum filled with gem nuts we have an obligation to point out pitfalls and then let them make up their own mind as to what's acceptable to them.

 

[distracts]

It's the cleaner, more crystal blue sapphires that have me worried.

And this is why I get paranoid about my e-ring stone being diffused! It was sold as unheated and has a lab report stating it is, but the lab is something that's not AGL (although I forget what and my fiance misplaced the papers, though I DID see them both before purchasing and after - I knew enough from Pricescope to look for that much, even if not enough to know what was a reputable lab for corundum). But I'm too afraid to send it off to AGL for testing because it would break my heart if it was diffused or synthetic. I think I could handle plain heat, even though it would mean we overpaid, but the thought of it being diffused or synthetic literally makes me sick. Ugh okay insecure vent over! I do have to say I have seen a lot of synthetic sapphires though because I buy them to practice setting on and I've never seen one with as much grey or purple as mine - and I've been looking for one for a pendant match. They're all stupidly BLUE. But, you know, PS makes you paranoid about your gems.

Bzimpf - I think that's a gorgeous stone! I suspect it will be a kind of steely greenish-blue in person, which is a color I personally love. Andrew's cutting is superb, so you've got nothing to worry about with the cut. Or, with this particular stone, with treatment. I'm not as savvy at judging sapphire prices as some here, but it looks fairly priced to me. To echo what was said previously, if you like it, you should ask for more pictures in some different lighting, and if you still like it, order it so you can see it in person and find out if you LOVE it! If you like the Montana sapphires, it'll be really hard to find them in a ready-made ring.