Rectangular cushion vs square ?

[bebe]

When reviewing cushion cuts, what sacrifices are made when
the stone is cut to a more rectangular shape than a more
square ratio?

Will the more rectangular stone be prone to a bow tie
or lose fire in the middle of the stone?

What about the pavilion facets? Longer or shorter in a rectangular
cut? Does that make a difference?

 

[pixley]

Hi Bebe,
I'm going to bump this one and hope that someone more experienced than me chimes in, but the "bowtie effect" probably shows up more often in rectangular stones, which can get closer to oval proportions, than in squares.
But it's also important to know whether the vendor is talking about bowtie effect or bowtie facets. The first cushion I saw was a modified brilliant (crushed ice style) with a 1.14 l/w ratio and its bowtie presented as a dead black bowtie region through the middle of the stone. The cushion I ended up with is an antique style cushion with a 1.14 l/w ratio which has bowtie facets that I can sometimes see marching through the middle of the stone like little triangles and they are not dead zones. On the contrary, they throw off fire like nobody's business, but the vendor I was working with warned me there was a slight bowtie before he sent it to me. I knew, based on the type of cut, that he was probably seeing bowtie facets, instead of a dead zone bowtie.

 

[DMBsGirl]

My stone is rectangular at 1.11 ratio. I have ZERO bowtie effect. My stone was purchased at engagement rings direct. My fiance worked with Gary. If you like the rectangular shape, just find someone who is knowledgeable about cushions and can find you a winner! Best of luck!!!

 

[bebe]

pixley and DMBsGirl, thanks for the info.

I thought I liked the crushed ice look until I saw a few, but a few of the
antique/older styles I saw did have the dreaded bow tie. And they looked like OMC''s to me.
I know, keep educating myself!

 

[pixley]

Bebe,
Check out GOG's videos on cushions http://www.goodoldgold.com/video/

There's one towards the bottom of the list that's got $200K worth of cushions and it has 5 cushions in order from L - R:

1. Antique style (old mine brilliant)
2. Modified brilliant (crushed ice)
3. Cushion brilliant (4-pavilion main)
4. Cushion brilliant (8 pavilion main)
5. Cushion brililant (8 pavilion main)

Jonathan's videos are fantastic and will give you an idea as to what style you gravitate towards. You can also see what bowtie facets do in stone #1. Jonathan has a sweet spot for outstanding fancy shapes that perform really well, so his site is a great place to start your research. He also has Cushettes which might appeal to you since they have stellar optics. Don't remember what that video is called but I think it's on his site somewhere. He has acccess to tons of stones (more than what's on his website) and can make you a video of different types lines up side by side for comparison.

 

[bebe]

thanks pixley, those were very helpful. Love those yummy cushions
and I learned a few new things.

but I still have that nagging question of will a rectangular cut
show more (or one at all) bowtie and if so, what produces the
bowtie. I know that if you imagine a round cut being stretched
out to become an oval - then you can see how a bowtie is formed!

 

[mrssalvo]

you know, we really need diagem or other expert to chime in. some of the cutting technique is just way over my head. I miss cehra b/c she'd be able to weigh in here as well. I can tell you that my cushion is slightly rectangular 1.16 ratio with no bowtie whatsoever. it's modern cushion, it says cushion brilliant on the cert and it looks like this:

 

[bebe]

thanks mrssalvo,

so how does one know if the stone has that crushed ice look?
can you tell from the cert''s drawings?
I thought I liked that look, but after viewing GOG''s videos
I can see the difference between the crushed ice and the broader,
chunkier facet look.

 

[mrssalvo]

bebe, I'd just ask the vendor if you are having a hard time telling, you can't tell anything for the cert's drawings. here's a picture of pauly posted the other day that is a good example IMO of the two extremes:

 

[CrookedRock]

Figuring out cushions has literally been my job for the past 2 months!!! Any I will say that it is not an easy job. Here''s what I can confirm...

~The crushed ice look of a cushion will say Cushion Modified on the cert. A chunky faceted stone, which is more of an antique stone (but there are cutters out there cutting them like that now) will say Cushion Brilliant on the cert.
I felt the same way you did. I thought I liked the crushed ice look, then I watched the videos, and I quickly changed my mind.

~As for square vs rectangular. I want a rectangular, even more rectangular than anyone can find me. Not all rectangular stones will have a "dead" bowtie, but some will. Not all square stone will have a dead bowtie, but some will. So far no one has showed me a dead bowtie stone. Except for a local jeweler, and it was an 8ct (just looking for fun

) and it was a real shame, it totally took the life out of the stone.

You probably need to ask someone like Mark @ERD or Jon @GOG for some assistance. They both know their stuff. I can tell you that these stones are much harder to find than the crushed ice looking stones. The hardest part is that 90+% of the stone you see online are Cushion Modified''s. Whoever you choose to work with will call up their sources for these particular stones.
It sounds like you want an antique cut stone, even if it was cut yesterday

. ONe more thing to consider is the culet size. I hate an open culet, so that was big for me!

Here is an example of a stone with a large culet, I am not sure of what the cert says, but for me this was not what I wanted
http://www.jamesallen.com/grading_report.asp?pic=859005&type=2

This is a much smaller culet, one that I may have been able to tolerate...
http://www.jamesallen.com/grading_report.asp?pic=1011281&type=2

Now this is a crushed ice cushion if I''ve ever seen one!
http://www.jamesallen.com/grading_report.asp?pic=1122268&type=2

I hope this makes sense...

 

[bebe]

Is there a cut in between the chunky and crushed ice look?

I''ve looked at quite a few, including some Kotlar cushions.
And no way, no how, will I go near a large/medium culet.

CrookedRock, it sounds like we are hunting for the same baby!

 

[CrookedRock]

It does sound that way! What size are you looking for? We''re looking in the 3ct range, and have really only seen 2 that are what we want. It seems the larger you go the harder they are to find.
Funny you say that about the inbetween look. I do feel like I have seen some cushions at B&M store that we went to that appeared to have the crushed ice look under the table, and the bigger facets around the edges... You would have to ask one of the pros about this. But I do know what you are talking about!

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 2/23/2008 11:01:05 AM
Author: bebe
Is there a cut in between the chunky and crushed ice look?


I've looked at quite a few, including some Kotlar cushions.

And no way, no how, will I go near a large/medium culet.


CrookedRock, it sounds like we are hunting for the same baby!

I think my stone falls in the in between catagory. My stone has a medium culet by the way...

here's a pic of my ring:

 

[indypitty]

CrookedRock,

Here is a very rectangular cushion brilliant, maybe a little smaller than you''re looking for.

http://www.bluenile.com/diamonds_details.asp?__fun_frm=i&track=btntext_viewselect&elem=img&pid=LD00930932&filter_id=0

 

[pixley]

Oooh, another chance to gaze at Mrs. S's yummy cushion

Yes, hers is an awesome example of a modern take on the antique cushion. MoreMoreMore, Bargaincrazy, Neatfreak, and (I think) Addlepated all have cushion brilliants with the same facet plot as MrsSalvo's cushion but in varying L/W ratios. Around PS, most people refer to them as "modern" cushions. All of those cushions are from Mark T at ERD and MrsS's is a Daniel K cushion from Pearlman's. Totally amazing stones. If you're worried about the bowtie, just tell whomever you work with that it must not have one. MoreMoreMore's stone has no dark areas whatsoever.

 

[bebe]

Crooked Rock, I too am looking for 3ct. to as large as I can go! I have a nice large budget, but I will not settle for just any
ol'' stone. Because I haven''t seen one I went crazy for (and I have had Mark w/ERD look and 3 other vendors), I''m seriously looking at RB''s.

MrsSalvo - I love the look of your stone, that is what I''m talking about!! To me in that photo, it doesn''t look like an antique
cut, but more modern, with sharper, finer faceting. Make sense??haha!

 

[bebe]

thanks pixley, I''ll have to check out those other stones.
Can''t hurt to look and look and look!!

 

[bebe]

wow, indy, that is some L to R for a cushion. I bet it is stunning!
I''ve had vendors tell me finding one around 1.25 is tough, this 1.32 is rare,
at least that is what I have found in my searches.

 

[indypitty]

Here is my cushion, which is quite rectangular with a 1.26 l:w ratio. I love the shape of it and does not appear oval-ish to me.

 

[indypitty]

Oh, BTW, mine is a cushion brilliant and has 6 main pavillions, as opposed to four or eight. I have not seen as many of those.

 

[bebe]

indy, very nice. I love your shape and the L to R.
I am going to have to study many certs to make a dent in
understanding the pavilion facets. I''m one of those people
who has to know, research and understand everything before
I leap.

 

[Rhino]

Hi bebe,

My .02c on your original questions...

Date: 2/21/2008 7:03:43 PM
Author:bebe
When reviewing cushion cuts, what sacrifices are made when
the stone is cut to a more rectangular shape than a more
square ratio?

You stand a greater chance of losing brightness/contrast however if the cutter knows how to do it right there are slightly rectangular cushions that rock. Lots of rectangulars on the market have that watery/crushed appearance. It''s easier to find a cushion with better light performance in the more square varieties however even finding a square cushion with seeming great stats (Ex/Ex to Vg/Vg) with smaller table than depth is no guarantee of how the diamond will look. I just called in about five 3ct stones and of them they generally represent 3 varying appearances generally found in cushions, one being more popular than the other 2.

Will the more rectangular stone be prone to a bow tie
or lose fire in the middle of the stone?

Yes it will be prone to have a bowtie but that is largely dependant on the pavilion mains at the belly and how shallow they are cut. The more shallow they are cut the greater the chance for a bowtie. With regards to fire however, those same facets will throw off chunks of fire in spot lighting. Bowties are generally more easily observed in diffuse lighting while fire in spot.

What about the pavilion facets? Longer or shorter in a rectangular
cut? Does that make a difference?

Yes. Longer/shorter will contribute to either a chunkier facet/broad flash appearance while longer to more of a crushed ice appearance. That is one factor sadly lacking on lab reports that would tell knowledgeable Gmen more about what it is they''d like to know about what they''re calling in.

It''s one reason why it is impossible to make a purchasing decision off of paper when it comes to these.

Hope that helps.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 2/23/2008 11:06:18 AM
Author: CrookedRock
It does sound that way! What size are you looking for? We''re looking in the 3ct range, and have really only seen 2 that are what we want. It seems the larger you go the harder they are to find.
Funny you say that about the inbetween look. I do feel like I have seen some cushions at B&M store that we went to that appeared to have the crushed ice look under the table, and the bigger facets around the edges... You would have to ask one of the pros about this. But I do know what you are talking about!

Your right about this crooked. There are cushions out there that appear to have the broader flash around the crown yet under the table take on the crushed ice look. Personally I don''t care for those and are typically found in cushions with the larger pavilion facets that extend off of the girdle with the mains picking up off of those large flat facets off the girdle.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 2/23/2008 11:01:05 AM
Author: bebe
Is there a cut in between the chunky and crushed ice look?

Yes there is. I''ll see if I can snap off a shot.

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/23/2008 4:15:58 PM
Author: Rhino
Hi bebe,

My .02c on your original questions...

What about the pavilion facets? Longer or shorter in a rectangular
cut? Does that make a difference?

Yes. Longer/shorter will contribute to either a chunkier facet/broad flash appearance while longer to more of a crushed ice appearance. That is one factor sadly lacking on lab reports that would tell knowledgeable Gmen more about what it is they''d like to know about what they''re calling in.

It''s one reason why it is impossible to make a purchasing decision off of paper when it comes to these.

Hope that helps.

Jon..., I think you miss wrote..., the crushed ice appearance generally originates either from a smaller type faceting arrangement (for example Radiant type) or a certain fashion of the brillianteering..., the larger/longer a pavilion facet (especially if free of sub-divisions)..., the chunkier the light return...

 

[Rhino]

Date: 2/23/2008 4:34:14 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/23/2008 4:15:58 PM
Author: Rhino
Hi bebe,

My .02c on your original questions...

What about the pavilion facets? Longer or shorter in a rectangular
cut? Does that make a difference?

Yes. Longer/shorter will contribute to either a chunkier facet/broad flash appearance while longer to more of a crushed ice appearance. That is one factor sadly lacking on lab reports that would tell knowledgeable Gmen more about what it is they''d like to know about what they''re calling in.

It''s one reason why it is impossible to make a purchasing decision off of paper when it comes to these.

Hope that helps.

Jon..., I think you miss wrote..., the crushed ice appearance generally originates either from a smaller type faceting arrangement (for example Radiant type) or a certain fashion of the brillianteering..., the larger/longer a pavilion facet (especially if free of sub-divisions)..., the chunkier the light return...

Generally the longer the *lower girdles* (hence resulting in thinner mains) the more crushed. Sorry for not being more clear and thanks for the note my friend. You''re right. I was thinking lower halves.

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/23/2008 5:05:44 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 2/23/2008 4:34:14 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/23/2008 4:15:58 PM
Author: Rhino
Hi bebe,

My .02c on your original questions...

What about the pavilion facets? Longer or shorter in a rectangular
cut? Does that make a difference?

Yes. Longer/shorter will contribute to either a chunkier facet/broad flash appearance while longer to more of a crushed ice appearance. That is one factor sadly lacking on lab reports that would tell knowledgeable Gmen more about what it is they''d like to know about what they''re calling in.

It''s one reason why it is impossible to make a purchasing decision off of paper when it comes to these.

Hope that helps.

Jon..., I think you miss wrote..., the crushed ice appearance generally originates either from a smaller type faceting arrangement (for example Radiant type) or a certain fashion of the brillianteering..., the larger/longer a pavilion facet (especially if free of sub-divisions)..., the chunkier the light return...

Generally the longer the *lower girdles* (hence resulting in thinner mains) the more crushed. Sorry for not being more clear and thanks for the note my friend. You''re right. I was thinking lower halves.

OK..., now your making sense...

 

[Rhino]

Here''s a few shots I just snapped off. Each of these cushions take on differing brightness, contrast, fire and sparkle. Each of them have what many would consider top specs on paper with promising proportions yet vary quite notably in their appearance.

This one takes on the crushed look.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 2/23/2008 5:10:34 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/23/2008 5:05:44 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 2/23/2008 4:34:14 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/23/2008 4:15:58 PM
Author: Rhino
Hi bebe,

My .02c on your original questions...

What about the pavilion facets? Longer or shorter in a rectangular
cut? Does that make a difference?

Yes. Longer/shorter will contribute to either a chunkier facet/broad flash appearance while longer to more of a crushed ice appearance. That is one factor sadly lacking on lab reports that would tell knowledgeable Gmen more about what it is they''d like to know about what they''re calling in.

It''s one reason why it is impossible to make a purchasing decision off of paper when it comes to these.

Hope that helps.

Jon..., I think you miss wrote..., the crushed ice appearance generally originates either from a smaller type faceting arrangement (for example Radiant type) or a certain fashion of the brillianteering..., the larger/longer a pavilion facet (especially if free of sub-divisions)..., the chunkier the light return...

Generally the longer the *lower girdles* (hence resulting in thinner mains) the more crushed. Sorry for not being more clear and thanks for the note my friend. You''re right. I was thinking lower halves.

OK..., now your making sense...

Haha... I realized that when I saw your post.

 

[Rhino]

Here''s an awesome chunky faceted cushion that just arrived.