Princess cut stone

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/17/2010 1:48:11 PM
Author: Firestone
Lorelei, I honestly don''t understand how you can say I gave inaccurate information. A more even girdle is more desirable than a girdle with wide ranges. And while very thin and very thick/thick girdles are obviously not desirable, that doesn''t make wide ranges in between desirable even if it is common. And a straight medium girdle is more desirable than a thick girdle. I honestly don''t understand why you are advocating that uneven girdles are desirable. An uneven girdle may not be a deal breaker when considering all other factors. But it certainly is a consideration when evaluating stones. If all other factors are the same, a stone with an even girdle within range is superior to a stone with an uneven girdle within range.

Because you advised a poster that the girdle on the diamond they were considering was undesirable. It is not. Do this, look at the Princess diamonds in the Search by Cut feature which will bring up top cut Princess, with the GIA graded stones ( AGS grade girdles in percentages) you will see most if not all have variations such as thin to medium, thin to slightly thick and so on.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/17/2010 1:56:42 PM
Author: Firestone
Lorelei,LOL!!! That's like saying it doesn't matter if a stone has a D color or IF clarity if everything else is not right. We are only discussing one aspect. We all know there are other factors. A 71% depth is better than a 75% depth. And a 75% depth is better than a 80% depth. Just like a 65% or 68% table is better than a 70% table.

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/princess-cut-diamond/

Even this link to pricescope shows that 75% is the extreme for a premium cut.

On a practical matter, we all know that larger depths have more light leakage and that larger depths mean that more caret weight is in the pavilion which is not where we want the weight.

Exactly. But it is important to realize a diamond with a 71% depth is not necessarily better than a diamond with a 75% depth if the overall cutting is bad.

Also where did you get the info that larger depths automatically = light leakage? Also Princess with lesser depths can still hold weight in the pavilion area.

I ask again, are you in the diamond industry?

 

[Firestone]

No I am not in the diamond industry. I have had the misfortune of studying princess cuts for the past 10 months and have learned that most princess cuts have very poor cuts. I''m sorry I can not provide you with links to everything I have learned in the past 10 months. Much of what I have learned is by actually examining different cuts and their sparkle with people who are in the diamond industry who were kind enough to share their knowledge with me.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/17/2010 2:13:38 PM
Author: Firestone
No I am not in the diamond industry. I have had the misfortune of studying princess cuts for the past 10 months and have learned that most princess cuts have very poor cuts. I'm sorry I can not provide you with links to everything I have learned in the past 10 months. Much of what I have learned is by actually examining different cuts and their sparkle with people who are in the diamond industry who were kind enough to share their knowledge with me.

Thank you for the reply, and I do agree with you about the majority of Princess having poor cuts. I am also sorry you had the 'misfortune' of studying Princess, did you end up buying a diamond?

 

[Firestone]

Thank you for the reply, and I do agree with you about the majority of Princess having poor cuts. I am also sorry you had the ''misfortune'' of studying Princess, did you end up buying a diamond?

Not yet but hopefully getting very close. This whole thing gives me a headache...a 10 month headache. I am just very grateful that I did not purchase the initial stones that were pitched to me.

 

[Rocksalt]

Fire-- If you have 10 months of knowledge, can you impart a bunch of it on me at once, instead of just answering questions that i may not know to ask.

What specs should i enter into the search to get the best that my money can buy. I know its the lazy man''s way out, but it would make me comfortable to have that information.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/17/2010 3:15:33 PM
Author: Rocksalt


What specs should i enter into the search to get the best that my money can buy. I know its the lazy man's way out, but it would make me comfortable to have that information.

On Pricescope, just use the search by cut feature above, enter Princess and that will bring up the in house Princess of excellent cut quality.

 

[Firestone]

Rocksalt I firmly believe that cut is the most important with a Princess. I don''t know if you have looked at any stones at local jewelers but there are a bulk of dead lifeless princess cuts floating around. Beware of the lights in jeweler stores. Almost anything will sparkle under those lights.

I would suggest that you really spend time going to a number of local jewelers and look at their princess cuts. Make sure they put out the GIA certificate out so you can evaluate the sparkle and cut between stones. Look at the stones outside in shade and sunlight. Sometimes you can view the stone in their back offices which will resemble the lighting you would see in a regular office.

When I search for stones, my first level of criteria is table no larger than 68% and depth under 71% with excellent polish and excellent symmetry. You won''t find as many stones meeting that criteria because most princess cuts aren''t very good. And yes I look at that girdle. A princess stone that is not really well cut can not be improved by moving up in color or clarity. If you have not seen a really good cut princess stone cut to those specs then you have no idea how beautiful they can be.

Regardless of your budget, you are planning on spending a lot of money on a stone and you should expect to get a real sparkly diamond. A diamond that doesn''t sparkle well doesn''t bring joy. It is much harder purchasing a princess cut than a round diamond.

Good luck.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/17/2010 3:45:21 PM
Author: Firestone
Rocksalt I firmly believe that cut is the most important with a Princess. I don't know if you have looked at any stones at local jewelers but there are a bulk of dead lifeless princess cuts floating around. Beware of the lights in jeweler stores. Almost anything will sparkle under those lights.

I would suggest that you really spend time going to a number of local jewelers and look at their princess cuts. Make sure they put out the GIA certificate out so you can evaluate the sparkle and cut between stones. Look at the stones outside in shade and sunlight. Sometimes you can view the stone in their back offices which will resemble the lighting you would see in a regular office.

When I search for stones, my first level of criteria is table no larger than 68% and depth under 71% with excellent polish and excellent symmetry. You won't find as many stones meeting that criteria because most princess cuts aren't very good. And yes I look at that girdle. A princess stone that is not really well cut can not be improved by moving up in color or clarity. If you have not seen a really good cut princess stone cut to those specs then you have no idea how beautiful they can be.

Regardless of your budget, you are planning on spending a lot of money on a stone and you should expect to get a real sparkly diamond. A diamond that doesn't sparkle well doesn't bring joy. It is much harder purchasing a princess cut than a round diamond.

Good luck.

Those measurements in themselves are sadly no guarantee of a well cut Princess.

 

[Firestone]

Those measurements in themselves are sadly no guarantee of a well cut Princess.

And stones cut outside of those measurements are guaranteed not to be rated as the best cut.

I personally don''t think it is advisable to just ignore cut standards but each to their own.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/17/2010 4:02:14 PM
Author: Firestone

Those measurements in themselves are sadly no guarantee of a well cut Princess.

And stones cut outside of those measurements are guaranteed not to be rated as the best cut.

I personally don't think it is advisable to just ignore cut standards but each to their own.

Depends who is rating them. Here is the concern I have. It is important for the OP to understand where the advice given to them is coming from and its implications. With the advice you just gave concerning the depth and table percentages of Princess, this is NO guarantee of any level of cut quality or beauty. All this info gives is a chalk outline of the stone, that the depth is a certain percent and the table is another. Thats all. It can work as a first round screening if you so desire but the OP was asking if there is a ' lazy man's way" with specific info they can enter into a search tool to guarantee them the best that money can buy.

Your methods above are not a guarantee of this. And it is important for the OP to understand this. Especially as you have spent 10 months and are getting a headache trying to find your diamond, maybe a different approach might be of benefit to you?

Further, you say stones outside of your ranges are guaranteed to not be of the best cut. Take a look at these. Lets say that AGS0 cut grade Princess for the purposes of this discussion are the best cut....

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6948/

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6943/

http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=view-id-diamond-infinity&id=452

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5773/

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Lorelei,

I feel the need to back you up here. Kudos for continuing to correct the incorrect information here.

Firestone,

Your statements about depth in a princess-cut are not correct. If you do not want to accept it as such from somebody with twenty years of experience, please add another day to your ten-month-study and read my journal-articles about depth in a princess-cut.

To summarize it: My experience is that it is extremely difficult to produce an ideal-cut princess with depths under 74%.

Unfortunately, real ideal princess-cuts are very hard to find, and I would not be surprised if you have never actually seen one. As such, I can understand your position, but can you please accept that it might be incorrect.

Live long,

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/17/2010 4:31:05 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Lorelei,

I feel the need to back you up here. Kudos for continuing to correct the incorrect information here.

Firestone,

Your statements about depth in a princess-cut are not correct. If you do not want to accept it as such from somebody with twenty years of experience, please add another day to your ten-month-study and read my journal-articles about depth in a princess-cut.

To summarize it: My experience is that it is extremely difficult to produce an ideal-cut princess with depths under 74%.

Unfortunately, real ideal princess-cuts are very hard to find, and I would not be surprised if you have never actually seen one. As such, I can understand your position, but can you please accept that it might be incorrect.

Live long,

Thank you Paul, I greatly appreciate it!

Firestone, it is your perogative to not listen to me but I would respectfully suggest you listen to what Paul is telling you, you could find his advice will help you in your own search. Paul is a world renowned diamond expert and managing director of Infinity Diamonds.

In case you didn't see Paul's article that I linked for you on the previous page concerning depth in Princess cuts, here it is again.

http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/21/1/The-matter-of-depth-in-a-princess-cut.aspx

 

[Dreamer_D]

Rocksalt Lorelei makes good points, and Paul is a true expert in the field who cuts Princess diamonds that are second to none in performance. Listen to them.

 

[Firestone]

Date: 3/17/2010 4:07:23 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 3/17/2010 4:02:14 PM

Author: Firestone

Those measurements in themselves are sadly no guarantee of a well cut Princess.

And stones cut outside of those measurements are guaranteed not to be rated as the best cut.


I personally don''t think it is advisable to just ignore cut standards but each to their own.

Depends who is rating them. Here is the concern I have. It is important for the OP to understand where the advice given to them is coming from and its implications. With the advice you just gave concerning the depth and table percentages of Princess, this is NO guarantee of any level of cut quality or beauty. All this info gives is a chalk outline of the stone, that the depth is a certain percent and the table is another. Thats all. It can work as a first round screening if you so desire but the OP was asking if there is a '' lazy man''s way'' with specific info they can enter into a search tool to guarantee them the best that money can buy.


Your methods above are not a guarantee of this. And it is important for the OP to understand this. Especially as you have spent 10 months and are getting a headache trying to find your diamond, maybe a different approach might be of benefit to you?


Further, you say stones outside of your ranges are guaranteed to not be of the best cut. Take a look at these. Lets say that AGS0 cut grade Princess for the purposes of this discussion are the best cut....


http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6948/


http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6943/


http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=view-id-diamond-infinity&id=452


http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5773/

Lorelei I respectfully disagree. No point in me repeating myself. I believe I have been clear. Lorelei, I did not invent those cut standards. I tried in good faith to share the knowledge that I have gained and people are free to reject it. People are free to believe that tables and depths outside of those ranges are top of the line cuts. People are free to believe that strong blue fluorescence is a desirable trait. People are free to believe that visible inclusions in their stone adds character to their stone. And people are free to believe that uneven wide range girdles are desirable.

I guess we have to just agree to disagree.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/17/2010 4:42:49 PM
Author: Firestone

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5773/

Lorelei I respectfully disagree. No point in me repeating myself. I believe I have been clear. Lorelei, I did not invent those cut standards. I tried in good faith to share the knowledge that I have gained and people are free to reject it. People are free to believe that tables and depths outside of those ranges are top of the line cuts. People are free to believe that strong blue fluorescence is a desirable trait. People are free to believe that visible inclusions in their stone adds character to their stone. And people are free to believe that uneven wide range girdles are desirable.

I guess we have to just agree to disagree.

Firestone,

Please read Paul Sleger's post above, I don't think you have seen it yet. You can disagree with me all you want but the fact remains that the advice you were offering is incorrect. If you won't listen to me, which is fine, maybe you will listen to a true and undisputed diamond expert whom is telling you the same thing.

You can buy anything you want, if you prefer your stone to have no more than a certain depth and table, thats absolutely not an issue. But when it comes to advising others here, if you come up with advice that is misleading or not best serving the interests of those seeking advice, then don't be surprised if other posters express an entirely different view to your own.

 

[Firestone]

Date: 3/17/2010 4:31:05 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Lorelei,


I feel the need to back you up here. Kudos for continuing to correct the incorrect information here.


Firestone,


Your statements about depth in a princess-cut are not correct. If you do not want to accept it as such from somebody with twenty years of experience, please add another day to your ten-month-study and read my journal-articles about depth in a princess-cut.


To summarize it: My experience is that it is extremely difficult to produce an ideal-cut princess with depths under 74%.


Unfortunately, real ideal princess-cuts are very hard to find, and I would not be surprised if you have never actually seen one. As such, I can understand your position, but can you please accept that it might be incorrect.


Live long,

I previously said that stones meeting those specs were not plentiful. Yes I do understand why so many princess cuts end up with such large depths...and tables. Yes I do understand that jewelers have been able to get away with poor cuts due to a lack of consumer education. But that only supports what I previously said. Most princess stones are not very well cut and really well cut princess stones are much harder to find.

Isn''t that amazing that I have seen so many stones that fit those cut specs in ten months. I guess I have a better source for diamonds. Where have you been in the last 20 years? Why would you presume that I have never seen a stone cut to those specs???? No need to answer. Your sacrasim is noted.

I''m sorry. I thought the point of pricescope was to educate the consumer -- not to get the consumer to accept lower cut standards to profit jewelers.

I honestly find it amazing that a discussion about cut standards has been meet with such hostility.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/17/2010 5:03:44 PM
Author: Firestone

Date: 3/17/2010 4:31:05 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Lorelei,


I feel the need to back you up here. Kudos for continuing to correct the incorrect information here.


Firestone,


Your statements about depth in a princess-cut are not correct. If you do not want to accept it as such from somebody with twenty years of experience, please add another day to your ten-month-study and read my journal-articles about depth in a princess-cut.


To summarize it: My experience is that it is extremely difficult to produce an ideal-cut princess with depths under 74%.


Unfortunately, real ideal princess-cuts are very hard to find, and I would not be surprised if you have never actually seen one. As such, I can understand your position, but can you please accept that it might be incorrect.


Live long,

I previously said that stones meeting those specs were not plentiful. Yes I do understand why so many princess cuts end up with such large depths...and tables. Yes I do understand that jewelers have been able to get away with poor cuts due to a lack of consumer education. But that only supports what I previously said. Most princess stones are not very well cut and really well cut princess stones are much harder to find.

Isn't that amazing that I have seen so many stones that fit those cut specs in ten months. I guess I have a better source for diamonds. Where have you been in the last 20 years? Why would you presume that I have never seen a stone cut to those specs???? No need to answer. Your sacrasim is noted.

I'm sorry. I thought the point of pricescope was to educate the consumer -- not to get the consumer to accept lower cut standards to profit jewelers.

I honestly find it amazing that a discussion about cut standards has been meet with such hostility.

Steady on there Firestone! Paul is not being hostile or sarcastic, in fact no one is showing you any hostility. We have expressed different opinions to you which is how forums operate and as above, incorrect info will be challenged in order to properly help new consumers. It is not the case that Pricescope or anyone here is trying to get consumers to settle for lower cut standards for profit, you are absolutely wrong on that score. The issue as I see it is that you refuse to even listen to the reasons why I and others are holding a different view to your own, why not at least listen and do some research to learn why this advice is being given before dismissing it? It could benefit you in your own search for a Princess. But your insistence concerning depth and tables being of a certain percentage and so called uneven girdles is not helping other consumers and as such will be challenged by others with a different opinion.

I wish you the best of luck in buying your ring.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Firestone,

I presume that you have never seen a princess-cut, graded Ideal by AGS, because you state that depth needs to be under 71% in order to be Ideal.

My experience is that it is very difficult to obtain the Ideal-grade, if the depth is under 74%. Your statement therefore leads to the conclusion that you have never seen AGS-Ideals.

No sarcasm there, just a simple observation.

Live long,

 

[Lula]

Firestone, I've read this entire thread and although you've made a lot of claims about your knowledge of what makes an excellent princess cut, I've seen nothing to back them up. I kept waiting to see comparison photos, data, reports, information about your sources, etc. So unless you can provide some evidence to back up what you're saying, why would any of us take what you say seriously?

Rocksalt, I have seen several Infinity princess cut diamonds in person. They sparkle, so much so that I've considered buying one, and the princess cut is my least favorite cut.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 3/17/2010 5:34:27 PM
Author: sarap333
Firestone, I''ve read this entire thread and although you''ve made a lot of claims about your knowledge of what makes an excellent princess cut, I''ve seen nothing to back them up. I kept waiting to see comparison photos, data, reports, information about your sources, etc. So unless you can provide some evidence to back up what you''re saying, why would any of us take what you say seriously?

My thoughts exactly. I would like to see the source of these claims. Stating 10 months of "research" is not enough for this crowd I am afraid. PROOF PROOF PRROF is what we want. It is not enough to state something as fact and give no evidence.

I do not understand the purpose of coming to PS and participating in forums unless one is willing to listen to others here who have *much* greater expertise -- and I am not counting myself among sucha group, lest you think it is my ego speaking

. Paul is an acknowledgde master diamond cutter whose diamonds are sent to AGS and receive the AGSO grade. That is the definition of ideal. Why would you not listen to his advise and opinion?

 

[Dreamer_D]

As an aside, I have noticed that in the last few weeks there have been 3-4 posters here in RT that have taken a very confrontational approach and have stirred the pot. Three of them were I suspect the same person, two for sure by his admission. I am suspicious now whenever someone appears out of the blue with firmly held and stated beliefs that seem aimed at stirring things up. It is interesting to me that the other three have disappeared in the last 4 days or so.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 3/17/2010 4:42:49 PM
Author: Firestone

Date: 3/17/2010 4:07:23 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 3/17/2010 4:02:14 PM

Author: Firestone

Those measurements in themselves are sadly no guarantee of a well cut Princess.

And stones cut outside of those measurements are guaranteed not to be rated as the best cut.


I personally don''t think it is advisable to just ignore cut standards but each to their own.

Depends who is rating them. Here is the concern I have. It is important for the OP to understand where the advice given to them is coming from and its implications. With the advice you just gave concerning the depth and table percentages of Princess, this is NO guarantee of any level of cut quality or beauty. All this info gives is a chalk outline of the stone, that the depth is a certain percent and the table is another. Thats all. It can work as a first round screening if you so desire but the OP was asking if there is a '' lazy man''s way'' with specific info they can enter into a search tool to guarantee them the best that money can buy.


Your methods above are not a guarantee of this. And it is important for the OP to understand this. Especially as you have spent 10 months and are getting a headache trying to find your diamond, maybe a different approach might be of benefit to you?


Further, you say stones outside of your ranges are guaranteed to not be of the best cut. Take a look at these. Lets say that AGS0 cut grade Princess for the purposes of this discussion are the best cut....


http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6948/


http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6943/


http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=view-id-diamond-infinity&id=452


http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5773/

Lorelei I respectfully disagree. No point in me repeating myself. I believe I have been clear. Lorelei, I did not invent those cut standards. I tried in good faith to share the knowledge that I have gained and people are free to reject it. People are free to believe that tables and depths outside of those ranges are top of the line cuts. People are free to believe that strong blue fluorescence is a desirable trait. People are free to believe that visible inclusions in their stone adds character to their stone. And people are free to believe that uneven wide range girdles are desirable.

I guess we have to just agree to disagree.

That is good because they have been widely and thoroughly disproven by the outstanding research done by the AGS, who are currently the ONLY top tier lab giving a cut grade for Princess cut diamonds. Unfortunately much of the knowledge that you have gained is outdated and proven not to be correct from a performance point of view, which is the only point of view that matters to those of us who love sparkle.

This is just plain rude and uncalled for in a civil conversation. You sir, owe Lorelei an apology. You confuse her trying to help you with believing the world is flat, when it is you who are in error and too arrogant to accept her or Paul''s help. Shame on you!

Wink

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/17/2010 6:09:08 PM
Author: Wink

That is good because they have been widely and thoroughly disproven by the outstanding research done by the AGS, who are currently the ONLY top tier lab giving a cut grade for Princess cut diamonds. Unfortunately much of the knowledge that you have gained is outdated and proven not to be correct from a performance point of view, which is the only point of view that matters to those of us who love sparkle.

This is just plain rude and uncalled for in a civil conversation. You sir, owe Lorelei an apology. You confuse her trying to help you with believing the world is flat, when it is you who are in error and too arrogant to accept her or Paul''s help. Shame on you!

Wink

Thanks so much for your support Wink, its much appreciated!

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 3/17/2010 5:50:25 PM
Author: dreamer_d
As an aside, I have noticed that in the last few weeks there have been 3-4 posters here in RT that have taken a very confrontational approach and have stirred the pot. Three of them were I suspect the same person, two for sure by his admission. I am suspicious now whenever someone appears out of the blue with firmly held and stated beliefs that seem aimed at stirring things up. It is interesting to me that the other three have disappeared in the last 4 days or so.

For the first time in Price Scope history, I can''t think of anything to add

 

[Ella]

Date: 3/17/2010 5:50:25 PM
Author: dreamer_d
As an aside, I have noticed that in the last few weeks there have been 3-4 posters here in RT that have taken a very confrontational approach and have stirred the pot. Three of them were I suspect the same person, two for sure by his admission. I am suspicious now whenever someone appears out of the blue with firmly held and stated beliefs that seem aimed at stirring things up. It is interesting to me that the other three have disappeared in the last 4 days or so.

As an additional aside, if you ever have suspicions about posters having multiple identities we would greatly appreciate knowing this information. You are always welcome to use the report concern button and let us know.

Thank you!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Firestone
i have never seen my Brit gf get piss off at anyone before,but you are getting close.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/17/2010 10:00:55 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
Firestone
i have never seen my Brit gf get piss off at anyone before,but you are getting close.

No, it takes a lot more than that my American BF, not even close.

 

[Lula]

Date: 3/18/2010 6:59:26 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 3/17/2010 10:00:55 PM

Author: Dancing Fire

Firestone

i have never seen my Brit gf get piss off at anyone before,but you are getting close.

No, it takes a lot more than that my American BF, not even close.

Hi, Lorelei

Just popping in to say that I thought you handled yourself with grace and aplomb in this thread.

 

[yssie]

Goodness!


Lorelei, your patience is a true virtue.


Firestone, this is hardly your first problematic post in the days since you've registered - I commented on another in a thread about palladium. If you're going to pose as knowledgeable and post information riddled with - well, misiniformation - at least have the decency to do it as your opinion and not blanket fact. Falseties don't help anyone.


You are not an expert, and in this thread you were downright rude to people who are experts.



ETA: I happen to have loved my old stone with its pavilion-visible inclusions - it added character.